3MA trackbike project

[jools]

 

Lets see how close they all are - some calibration instructions would be nice 

[casal-fan]

Lets see how close they all are - some calibration instructions would be nice 

Jools, our friend Louis has established the TPS voltage ranges for the different curves as well as VAJ operation.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/tps-sensor.html

While Louis research was based on a 10 CDI, I think the 00 one won´t be much different. TPS part number is the samme.

Fine calibration would be possible by having the TPS delaying/advancing the map/vaj chart switch by adjusting the tps in the slots.
We´ll see how it goes.
My guess, and its just a guess.
The extra advance as well as the vaj giving more air at low revs/low gas openings will do a bunch of good with my flooding problem, wich is what the problem is.
The intake spacers are comming out, besides a member here wich I consider as highly 3MA educated urging me to try without the spacers and see how it goes, Louis also reported (I think I read it somewhere, not sure) the flooding problem to the worst with intake spacers (tryed to find Louis writting on this yesterday but no luck, but I´m quite sure he made this relation.

We´ll see how it goes...

[loor]

Hey Rui,

do you know if there are more than two TPS / VAJ maps stored in the ECU? I wrote Louis a pm but he didn't reply to my questions, maybe he's busy

I think it should be possible to make a kind of VE table to see how the changes effect the VAJ system.

Cheers


Edit: something like that: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hskfxr4yr5m7z7h/3ma-vajmap.xls?dl=0

you can change the values of the VAJ jets on the left and will see the changes on the table right. The table was created by the values i found on Louis' homepage (cdi-facts/solenoid-map) i'm not sure if the tps1 map is correct at 25% throttle.

cheers!

[casal-fan]

Hej Lorenz

Most of my starting points, or how does it work has come from the vast research Louis has done.
To that I added a bit of my own... mostly small things.
But, talking VAJ for instance, there is a link between louis testing and how I see the machine functions.
I do not use the std. jets in the VAJ block.
I have been using the full throttle curve+2* with VAJ connected with customs jetting, so full throttle curve is pretty much sorted, as I have the main jet together with air correction working pretty good.
Based on Louis research and my own findings with small lamps connectd to tps powercales, wich give the same results, full working TPS is maybe what I am missing to have this bike tuned to run good at all circunstances. Maybe, perhaps...

About your questions, Louis has establised that there are four maps based on TPS position.
The values measured by Louis are very close to the well known 3MA ignition advance map that shows up on internet, so no point doubting that.
Air correction basically decreases with higher rpm and/or higher throttle.

Cheers
Rui

[loor]

About your questions, Louis has establised that there are four maps based on TPS position.
The values measured by Louis are very close to the well known 3MA ignition advance map that shows up on internet, so no point doubting that.

Hey Rui,

its not about the doubt, its about the actual values for us to optimize our systems. if you feel a flat spot at given rpm/throttle you can play around with the jets virtually without buying stuff / getting your hands dirty. 

Air correction basically decreases with higher rpm and/or higher throttle.

Unfortunately not if you look at TPS1 curve at 12-13000rpm :-(

[jools]

Jools, our friend Louis has established the TPS voltage ranges for the different curves as well as VAJ operation.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/tps-sensor.html
Fine calibration would be possible by having the TPS delaying/advancing the map/vaj chart switch by adjusting the tps in the slots.

Yes - I remember discussing this, I meant calibration in terms of static setting of resistance readings for 0 and full throttle positions, as we don't all have access to Louis' sophisticated laboratory  ) This what the slots are for initially then once they are set to factory specs and marked, it may be possible to play with the settings.


We´ll see how it goes.
My guess, and its just a guess.
The extra advance as well as the vaj giving more air at low revs/low gas openings will do a bunch of good with my flooding problem, wich is what the problem is.
The intake spacers are comming out, besides a member here wich I consider as highly 3MA educated urging me to try without the spacers and see how it goes, Louis also reported (I think I read it somewhere, not sure) the flooding problem to the worst with intake spacers (tryed to find Louis writting on this yesterday but no luck, but I´m quite sure he made this relation.

We´ll see how it goes...
[/quote]
I did remove my spacers, mainly to try and accommodate the airbox within the TZ fairing, but I believe it had a positive effect and the fuel build up problem was not evident at Spa. With the engine running too rich at main jet I would have expected the fuel build to be more of a problem.............

[casal-fan]

Yes - I remember discussing this, I meant calibration in terms of static setting of resistance readings for 0 and full throttle positions, as we don't all have access to Louis' sophisticated laboratory  ) This what the slots are for initially then once they are set to factory specs and marked, it may be possible to play with the settings.

Yes Jools, this would somehow be like playing with needle settings without all the hardwork+ignition timing would follow... seen this, but perhaps a bit time consuming to test to full extent. But it will be considered acording to how the engine runs



I did remove my spacers, mainly to try and accommodate the airbox within the TZ fairing, but I believe it had a positive effect and the fuel build up problem was not evident at Spa. With the engine running too rich at main jet I would have expected the fuel build to be more of a problem.............

You mean fuel buildup was less without spacers???

[casal-fan]

About your questions, Louis has establised that there are four maps based on TPS position.
The values measured by Louis are very close to the well known 3MA ignition advance map that shows up on internet, so no point doubting that.

Hey Rui,

its not about the doubt, its about the actual values for us to optimize our systems. if you feel a flat spot at given rpm/throttle you can play around with the jets virtually without buying stuff / getting your hands dirty. 

Air correction basically decreases with higher rpm and/or higher throttle.

Unfortunately not if you look at TPS1 curve at 12-13000rpm :-(

Lorenz, good point.
I think on my bike, flat point has had to do with incorrect fueling at a stating condition, like warming up the engine, or wainting for a light to go of at te track with the engine running. Cold engine is even worst. Once it gets going... it goes
No flat spot at 8 or 9 anymore because at WOT settings when the engine runs clear its smoth, carburation and air correction at WOT are acceptable.
But, the numbers I use... are probably useless to others. My pipes for instance are probably a one off , my airbox setting is also not far from std. while most adopt not using the airbox or at least remove the intake trupets.

About the TPS curves... think is not easy... my bike runs better with full throttle curve, but it is my bike and (the little) I can achive jettingwise
Others are maybe different...
Loor, 12-13000 CDI rpm is a lot of rpm. While trying different gearing last time out, there was a part of the circuit was using second overrevving to 13000 tacho rpm because shifting would not be convenient... Sounded good and was only 4-5 laps, but the machinery felt and sounded quite stressed at 13000 overrev. Gearing was not suited.

All good fun, we´ll see

[casal-fan]

2 trackdays with 2 races the coming weekend.
Man… I´ve been busy with other things, no place to work on the bike (garage filled with moving boxes), so its not easy. 10-15 minuttes to find a spanner is not optimal
Managed to test the 2 tps sensors I got from ebay. Got the proof for my suspition that my TPS was defect. Voltage on the 2 new TPS is the same if position is the same and the voltage range for each ignition curve is within Louis voltage numbers – so that’s good.

Jools - the TPS you sent is 3XV???
I could not couple it to the mecanism on the 3MA carbs.

The intake spacers are out – had the chance to look at the sagging of the sealant I used last time – Attention guys, while intake was torqued to spec, some places it was the sealant liquidgasket that was sealing – not the papergasket (this problem has been discussed here) – make sure to put enough liquid sealant in the right places when working with the intake system.

Still a lot of things to do before bike is ready, and no time to do it – but this is nothing unusual.
Gearing, lubing, carbs tjeck, fuel heights, sinchro, etc etc
I´ll take some pics later today if I have the chance.
While I know that changes are always unknown if it will work or not, I am confident
The best scenario is that on Monday I´ll write here how good the bike is and post the specs I usued(-P)

Cheers
Rui

[casal-fan]

TPS calibration.
About the middel of Louis values.

[jools]

Yes - I remember discussing this, I meant calibration in terms of static setting of resistance readings for 0 and full throttle positions, as we don't all have access to Louis' sophisticated laboratory  ) This what the slots are for initially then once they are set to factory specs and marked, it may be possible to play with the settings.

Yes Jools, this would somehow be like playing with needle settings without all the hardwork+ignition timing would follow... seen this, but perhaps a bit time consuming to test to full extent. But it will be considered acording to how the engine runs



I did remove my spacers, mainly to try and accommodate the airbox within the TZ fairing, but I believe it had a positive effect and the fuel build up problem was not evident at Spa. With the engine running too rich at main jet I would have expected the fuel build to be more of a problem.............

You mean fuel buildup was less without spacers???

Sorry Rui I  missed this, but yes it did appear to be better but with all my other problems that weekend it may have been masked or will reappear once I get the main jet correct and have to re compensate the mid range.............that is why I will be trying the powerjets.

[jools]

Jools - the TPS you sent is 3XV???
I could not couple it to the mecanism on the 3MA carbs.

Yes, did I not mention that ?  sorry - it is the fixed dummy one I use on my 3MA with the 3XV SP carbs. Does it not mount to the 3MA bracket ? I never checked to be honest. 

[casal-fan]

No Jools, its not the same attaching system.
I´ll send it back, please send me your adress.

Been a bit busy, but own youguys a little report from the last outing.
The 3MA rode for about 20 minutes before it holed a piston. Little hole, but a hole anyways
No panic or nothing, it just started loosing power down the straight, clutch in, and when I came to a holt, engine still running, but it was a 125cc
Had the change to try the tps and start from a stand still situation, and it was MUCH better.
The hole in the piston was my fault… I knew jetting at the top was good for this track when 15-18 degrees, but this morning was cold, very cold.
New piston as well as rings for the other one are already ordered in Italy.
I´ll change the piston, give it a major clean up, jet a bit richer… and then… I´ll have to think about it.
I have the complete TZR series. Nice, but I´m not really the collector type, so perhaps 3MA and 2MA are coming up for sale. Will have to think about it.

Back to the race weekend.
I ended up borrowing a 99 bone stock R6 on street tyres. In all my live i´ve ridden a 4stroke for something like half an hour or so.
10 minutes practice on the R6… and then I got thrown to the wolves in a wet race on a bike I´ve practiced on for 10 minutes and with a tottaly different engine character to what I´m used to.
Went Ok, ended up 3rd last or something.
Sunday, still with the R6… it was fast, even in a short straight, the 600ccs gain considerably on the 250 2 stroke, but the R6 was no fun at all, not compared to a Little 2stroke.
Race Sunday. I´m the guy outbreaking an opponent  on the inside from 4.47 and then we disappear at 4.51
Went good, and I can understand with a lot of people choose the 4strokes, they just ride… but are booring as hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z32QVFrsdy0

This kind of ends this chapter regarding the 3MA.
If all goes after plan, I´ll have a single cylinder 250cc stroke cagiva/gasgas hybrid for NeXT year and the 3MA will not be used.
My impressions are that the 3MA is a good bike, a very good bike. Very stable, easy to extract decent power of.
On the other side, it is big(ish), heavy and quite hard to setup carburation wise.
I had fun running it... and the sound of a 3MA pushing 6th at full tilt 12000 rpm... well, its just glorious

[jools]

Rui

I hope after some time resting you will re-consider the 3MA.
Frustrating Bastard of a bike but also nice and easy to ride and a good fit for my large frame.

I will pm you sons address in UK as that is where the bike lives now.

I thank you for sharing all of your reports and videos, information and frustration with us.
Maybe we will catch up one day 

Jools

[casal-fan]

So, fellow 3MA enthusiasts.

Life has gotten in the way, and another much needed track machine is still in project fase.
This means that the 3MA is the nearest I have at hand to take a couple of rounds around a track this year.
Plans are for the engine to come out (again again), inspection work as well as some repairs are needed.
New piston – cylinder inspection – new balanceshaft bearings as well as a new power output bearing are probably necessary, as the engine started developing a slight whynning noise. Will have to check that.

As for the running difficulties… well, thinking of trying a hole new approach because it seems that the setups I´ve been running are far away from perfect.
I have read the 3MA sugo kit thread a couple of times as well as the special book, VERY big thanks to the members that so kindly uploaded those… and have some thoughts about it…
Basically, I am assuming that the carb settings given by the sugo manual for SP setup (not the bit written in hand), are planed for the 3MA1 – 1989 – TM32 carbs (sugo manual page 15 (page 35 on the pdf)).

After reading the 3MA sugo manual post, I believe Warwick made a comment I pretty much agree with. People are mistaking what SP stands for in the manual. SP was probably the name of the race series and has nothing to do with the TZR3MA-SP that came in 1990.

Interesting, interesting… we´ll see what time brings, but as things stand now the 3MA is the one to bet on to have ready sometime around midsummer.

By the way, looking at the jetting specs for the SP class (as well as F3 for that sake) the combo needle jet/needle massively choke the engine for fuel in relation to the road model – interesting…
I tried a mikuni needle (7-series for large 38mm mikuni carbs), and fuel building was no more… unfortunately the engine blew up after a few laps with this setup

We´ll see what future brings