Author Topic: 92 SP / R Mix  (Read 7644 times)

Warwick

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2015, 10:54:09 PM »
Yes, the 28mm carbs are surprisingly good really, Karl. Unless you are going for an all out tune, you may find they offer enough for your needs.

As Dan says, you might find the SP heads unnecessary really too? You might be fine with R powervalves as well if you have some spares? Try fitting some and see if you'd get away with just flowing them a bit to match the SP cyls perhaps. 

It all depends what you want to do with it really of course, but for a nice 'full power' easy option road bike you probably have all the parts you need there :).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 07:14:55 PM by Warwick »
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ybk

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2015, 07:11:16 AM »
Nice! This will be a track bike but the idea is just a strong motor, maybe 50 something. Not all out, just want to escape the 45hp friendzone but still have reliability.  I'll have a go at flowing a spare set of powervalves - will save a bit of money. Get at it with the dremel  :D Later on I will look at more tuning options.

Warwick can you give some more details on how you had/have your setup? Jetting wise maybe and any other mods? Want to get it right, don't think the budget is gonna cover a blow up ;)

Do the SP heads have smaller volume than the R heads? This will run on pump petrol, looking at the -7K vs the -80 curve it's nearly identical, so unleaded should be fine.

stroker3xv

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2015, 11:01:23 AM »
I saw Yuri Mag***** was bidding on this barrels I was about to bid for those to. I must say you got them for a good price YBK!!!


Put some fairings on to get it through the roadworthy test next week, if I need to sell then a bike with good paperwork always helps.




Picked up some nice 92 SP cylinders, thanks to Yuri's help 8)





Now just heads, PV's .....

Yuri will be angry but what do you guys think about the following combination of parts, SP top end, Sugo CDI, SP pipes (DFR/jackal) but with 28mm carbs and airboxes... Will this be a workable setup? Would the 28mm carbs and boxes strangle it? Has anyone done a similar setup?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 11:04:22 AM by stroker3xv »
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Yuri

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2015, 11:16:52 AM »
I saw Yuri Mag***** was bidding on this barrels I was about to bid for those to. I must say you got them for a good price YBK!!!


Put some fairings on to get it through the roadworthy test next week, if I need to sell then a bike with good paperwork always helps.





Picked up some nice 92 SP cylinders, thanks to Yuri's help 8)





Now just heads, PV's .....

Yuri will be angry but what do you guys think about the following combination of parts, SP top end, Sugo CDI, SP pipes (DFR/jackal) but with 28mm carbs and airboxes... Will this be a workable setup? Would the 28mm carbs and boxes strangle it? Has anyone done a similar setup?

If you want you can bid with me and karl

ybk

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2015, 11:39:52 AM »
I saw Yuri Mag***** was bidding on this barrels I was about to bid for those to. I must say you got them for a good price YBK!!!


Hehehe, yeah was nail biting! Happy with the price, one was cheaper than the other, guess the competitors gave up :D Bonus about them being water blasted as well. You should let us know who you bid as then we don't beat each other up on auction day! :D

Warwick

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2015, 05:41:41 PM »
Nice! This will be a track bike but the idea is just a strong motor, maybe 50 something. Not all out, just want to escape the 45hp friendzone but still have reliability.  I'll have a go at flowing a spare set of powervalves - will save a bit of money. Get at it with the dremel  :D Later on I will look at more tuning options.

Warwick can you give some more details on how you had/have your setup? Jetting wise maybe and any other mods? Want to get it right, don't think the budget is gonna cover a blow up ;)

Do the SP heads have smaller volume than the R heads? This will run on pump petrol, looking at the -7K vs the -80 curve it's nearly identical, so unleaded should be fine.

It's a long time ago, Karl, but I ran the 28s with close to stock settings in the end. Mains ended up being something like 250/210, but start rich and work down of course. Final jetting will depend quite a bit on what you do about the air jet though I'd think. I just left the VAJ blocks in place, but the Sugo doesn't operate the variable jets of course, so the only needle air feed was from the central jet in the block. Ran well enough like that, but it would maybe be worth experimenting with different sized (fixed) air jets and balance that against the main and needle settings to optimise? Disconnect the VAJ wiring though or the Sugo ignition will fiddle with one of the VAJ solenoids as it uses part of the same wiring for the powerjet function if using the big carbs.

R head vol is bigger than SP, but that's no bad thing if you'll be running pump fuel. In the first instance, I'd maybe just go with a stock R head as you'll be tightening things up a bit by losing the head gasket to the SP O rings. Once it's running well, maybe look at tightening up the head vols and optimising the squish etc. if you think there are gains to be had there at that point? 

Erm...

A pukka SP upper air box lid seemed to give a little bit on the dyno - one HP or so. Nothing dramatic.

And open up the reed stops to give about 10mm of lift too maybe?

Have you taken off the pipes yet? If the flanges are the all-round R type, then you'll ideally need the SP cylinder flange adapter pieces to use them with the SP cyls - and it might suggest that the pipes are designed with the R motor in mind, so might not be optimised for the SP porting etc. They'll still probably be much better than stock pipes of course.  Not sure what they are from the pics. Jackals maybe? You may need to adjust the rear mounts a bit when fitted to the SP cyls too.

Anyway, get it all together, jet it so rich that it won't run clean at WOT and then work back down until you get a nice plug colour. That's generally the best way to proceed isn't it?

Good luck  :).

 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:30:10 AM by Warwick »
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ybk

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2015, 06:13:26 PM »
Thanks Warwick :) I will take your advice! Interesting about the VAJ - didnt realise the sugo box retools the connector for the PJ's. So I just unplug both VAJ block from the loom when the sugo CDI is connected.

Did you run R pistons or SP type? Would the R pistons 'reduce' the head volume due to their dome shape?

On first inspection, exhausts are fully R type so will start looking for SP exhausts with D shape flanges.

Started the strip down, removed fluids and exhausts. Still fairly stock, just some dodgy fasteners here and there.



Better shot of the mystery exhausts:



Weirdest discovery so far, the carbs were connected via the breathers like this  :o Oddly enough the bike ran OK, started first kick etc..


maccas

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 06:52:13 PM »
Looking good!

Yeah those look like SP tadao Jackals don't they. As far as I know, and what I have found from lots of scouring, SP tadao didn't appear to make a pipe for the 91-92 SP. I was led to believe otherwise but that has since found not to be the case. Fitting D shaped flanges to those pipes should get you the results you are looking for. The jackals work well with SP porting and R model porting too. So don't bin them off just yet!

Sp pipes wise from Japan I think your options are:

SUGO
OX racing
Dogfight racing (almost identical to the OX pipes)
Daytona

I've not seen any others. Not sure if M-max do a set though?

Dan

Scotty4321

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 08:52:45 PM »
Hi Karl,
If you fit SP pipes to SP barrels directly by changing the flanges to D shape, you may need to add about 15mm
whilst doing it to make the pipes the right length.
91/92 SP has a cast iron adaptor flange to change from the d port to the round pipe and it's about 15mm thick. I don't know if these are hard to get or not, but they are best option if you can, as will give a better flow than reshaping the pipes.
I have just done the opposite and had flanges made to put SP exhausts to R barrels with the spacer built in. Cheers Scotty

Warwick

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 11:21:31 PM »
Might it be worth considering selling on the SP cyls and having the R cyls ported to SP spec, Karl? It'd make life easier re: pipes, and works very well if they are ported effectively (I'd recommend Martin77).

R pistons will give a smaller head vol if running in R heads than the flat-top SP pistons of course. The oe R head gasket is .2mm, so fitted vol (and squish) will differ a little if using the SP or the R cyls. I've run both R and SP (and TZ) pistons depending on head mods and settings. If running stock R heads, the R pistons should be fine. I'd think

You will need to be much more cautious with carb set-up once you are running a hotter ignition though as it will punish you very quickly if you go at all lean. With the stock ignition you can get away with murder on the jetting because the motor really isn't working very hard at the top end in any case. As soon as you fit a Sugo or adjustable ignition and start asking it to work harder, jetting becomes much more critical. You'll have noticed this from the melted piston pics in the tuning threads...

Lets hope you don't win one of these too  ;D:
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:32:43 PM by Warwick »
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ybk

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2015, 05:53:38 PM »
They do have a jackal look about them. Shame the right hand pipe is a little worse for wear. Dented and slightly squashed here and there. I still have a nice SP DFR set that I have on my road bike but don't really want to sacrifice it for a track bike..and they have been modified a little to fit the R :P :( I'll have a look at what's available and then make a decision. Worst case I'll make up some new flanges and use the maybe-jackals.

Warwick, thanks for the pointers, I'm at altitude so 250/210 may be a good place to start at. I considered porting R barrels but shipping costs, Martin's costs and replating would be more or the same as just buying SP barrels. I got these for a fair price so may as well stick with them. I'm hoping the plating is OK so I can get away with not having to replate! ;D  8)

Motor on the bench 8)


maccas

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2015, 06:29:26 PM »
That rear cylinder has been plated recently by the look of it so it might be in good nick  O0

Dan

ybk

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2015, 07:08:16 PM »
Yup! It's got the local plating company's serial stamped into it and according to the previous owner it hasnt run much if at all after plating. Heads appear to have no gasket, only silicon...or glue as it's proper stuck! :o

Will take it apart this weekend to see whats what ;D

Yuri

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2015, 07:16:18 PM »
Make it proper SP it a SP and deserves proper treatment

You can enjoy building it up an at the end if you have to sell it still get your money back even keep it as a investment

You have a track bike so do not waist this one

ybk

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Re: 92 SP / R Mix
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2015, 06:46:34 PM »
Restoring all the SP parts would be nice and I would like to, for now I want to build a nice motor. Will pick SP bits when I come across them  :)

Tearing down is easy... ;D



Motor on the homemade stand, easy to work on it with the barrels pointing up  :)



Both barrels have nice nikasil, recently plated it looks like.

A very strong and hard setting sealant was used on the heads  :(

Any ideas how to remove the heads without damaging them?