Author Topic: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE  (Read 17076 times)

Louis

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #270 on: March 12, 2018, 07:28:05 PM »
Hi Martin,

Quote
I run a zeel on my 4FL motor, though don't have access to a dyno so its hard to fine tune it :-\ I run 75 degrees static advance, and it seems to work ok. I wonder if the 4DL and 4FL flywheels are different? I couldn't get a nice strobe reading either, but 75 degrees seemed to give the closest match.

Looking at the part numbers the 4FL Flywheel does have a different part number.

Regarding your ''couldn't get a nice strobe reading'' could have something to do with your setup.
The static angular is there so the ignition fires at the back off the lobe. Ones the rpm is rising until it hits the first ignition point (you set) it starts firing at the begin off the lobe.
If you have set your first ignition point at +/-1500rpm then at idle the ignition is already start adjusting, best is to set it way off your idle rpm point.
That's way I have set my first ignition point at 2500rpm way off the idle point.
In this setup the steady angular is all the way until it hits my first point at 2500rpm it gives a nice strobe reading that way :)

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Louis

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #271 on: March 12, 2018, 07:55:24 PM »
Hello 2stroke

Quote
Here it is my "all purposes" curve : the engine runs smoothly on the whole powerband.
Ok that is almost similar what I have now with the stock ignition (set 5 degrees more)
Roughly drown it into your map in blue.

Quote
Be careful with carburetion : increasing the advance makes carburetion leaner, and you risk detonating/seizing .. with devastating effects. In particular adjust the needle to have a richer midrange passage. Another advice for you is to keep your exhaust at the right temperature through the management of advance. It gives you the "extra-boost" you are looking for.
Yes that is a big concern for me, as I don't have a license plate with this bike riding on the road is somewhat difficult.
Setting up a engine on a dyno using only acceleration is tricky, you need to hold it at certain rpm's at differed loads to get a better reading.
Its is one off the reasons I'm upgrading my dyno
1) after the update I can see the mixture (lean/rich)
2) after the update I can brake the engine to let it pull to a certain rpm or hold it there

But for now I'll need to do it with the full accelerations :)

Hope to get some results this Saturday with the ignitech
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:59:03 PM by Louis »
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Martin77

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #272 on: March 12, 2018, 09:57:16 PM »
That's way I have set my first ignition point at 2500rpm way off the idle point.
In this setup the steady angular is all the way until it hits my first point at 2500rpm it gives a nice strobe reading that way :)

yup, I know what you mean, but I'd see the line shifting smoothly if that was true, whereas it was flashing a bit and jumpy. Anyway, it's only a start point, so we'll see... just wish I had a dyno to test on!

2stroke, what rpm does your bike peak at?


2stroke

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #273 on: March 13, 2018, 11:18:27 AM »
@Louis

Hello 2stroke

Quote
Here it is my "all purposes" curve : the engine runs smoothly on the whole powerband.
Ok that is almost similar what I have now with the stock ignition (set 5 degrees more)
Roughly drown it into your map in blue.

I've developed this map to optimize my track-bike setup about two years ago, since I can't increase anymore the advance by adjusting the pickup position on the stator. Moreover this mod increased the advance at any engine rpm, that was not optimal.
Here it is:



TDR has a different map than the one stored in TZR stock CDI, it's more similar to DT 125 R (3BN) one. So I took the TZR 4DL map and adjusted it by increasing the advance of about 6 degrees, only where required, plus other small changes. This was a good start for me : I developed many maps that brought to the dyno I've shown above in this post. They're quite "extreme" compared to this one...anyway not for "beginners": engine is pushed to its limits, as it's only required for circuit racing. ;)

For the moment you may like this "intermediate", as a reference for your developments  ;D :



Be very careful with carburetion... 8)


@Martin :
My track-bike peaks at about 10500 rpm, but pushes strongly over-revving to about 11500, where reaches the top speed.  I' ve set the rpm limiter to 12000, quickly reacheable on first 3 gears. I decided to use stock expansion to have more "shoulder" at midrange. With a Giannelli pipe, the bike peaked at 11000 and went overrevving to 12500. No need to go that high, otherwise you have to do an intense use of clutch, coming out from circuit curves. (-P)

I measured static angle that is the same between TDR and TZR Belgarda (3MB/4DL), since they've same flywheel and stator with a huge lobe. Mine is 80.5 degrees.


« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 11:44:05 AM by 2stroke »

Martin77

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #274 on: March 13, 2018, 07:07:13 PM »
And do you know if the 4FL uses the same flywheel as the TDR and 4DL?

2stroke

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #275 on: March 14, 2018, 10:35:05 AM »
And do you know if the 4FL uses the same flywheel as the TDR and 4DL?

Stator and flywheel may vary from the country of production/assembly of the engine, in some cases they're the same, in other, not. ;)

For the flywheel there is a version with huge lobe (4DL/3MB "style"), or short lobe. Usually the "huge lobe" flywheel couples with a 3 coils stator, the other one has a 15 coils stator (for this version static advance is 17).

Martin77

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #276 on: March 14, 2018, 01:05:17 PM »
Yeah, mine is a 4FL flywheel and has the looong lug. I will measure the length of it with vernier calipers, can you measure one of yours for reference?

My 4FL lug measured with a vernier edge to edge is 61mm, and measured around the curve of the circumference is 64mm.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:47:30 PM by Martin77 »

Louis

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #277 on: March 14, 2018, 07:59:05 PM »
Quote
My 4FL lug measured with a vernier edge to edge is 61mm
Measured my 4DL at 62mm edge to edge :)

Quote
For the moment you may like this "intermediate", as a reference for your developments
Very Interesting, will se how it goes on my bike
I'm also interested in the 0-Curve from the 3MA-CDI as the tzr125 peeks at around 10800rpm


4DL and 3MA share the same bore x stroke so its worth a try i think
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:06:24 PM by Louis »
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Martin77

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #278 on: March 14, 2018, 10:25:31 PM »
Ok, thanks Louis! Will try bumping my static angle up to 80 and have a test. When it stops raining.

2stroke

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #279 on: March 16, 2018, 10:49:25 AM »
Yeah, mine is a 4FL flywheel and has the looong lug. I will measure the length of it with vernier calipers, can you measure one of yours for reference?

My 4FL lug measured with a vernier edge to edge is 61mm, and measured around the curve of the circumference is 64mm.

My flywheel's lobe measures 62.5mm, edge to edge. (-P)

@Louis :

I see and already know the 3MA graph you posted. Keep in mind that combustion chamber's volume and squish value are strictly related with advance. Are these parameters very close to the TZR 4DL ones?

Louis

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #280 on: March 17, 2018, 11:02:13 AM »
Hello 2stroke,

Quote
I see and already know the 3MA graph you posted. Keep in mind that combustion chamber's volume and squish value are strictly related with advance. Are these parameters very close to the TZR 4DL ones?

On my tracking think the headvolume would be close to that from a 3MA (as I changed it to a 12,3cc with 0,7mm squish)
But on my road going bike, I just have removed the headgasget and did the O-ring conversion so headvolume should be close to a 10,5cc that is much tighter.
Had good results with that mode with one off my in betweensteps on the trackbike, (with does full accelerations)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/dyno-o-ring-head.html
But it could be to tight on the roadgoing bike as you will ride it most off the time with half throttle. Therefore I went to a free programmable ignition so I can set Map1 low (in order to prevent detonation) and Map2 the best I can set it (for fun) will see how that goes ones the weather gets better. :)

Hope to do some runs today ore tomorrow with the trackbike but temperatures are at -3 currently so I'm not that enthusiastic today :(
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Louis

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #281 on: March 17, 2018, 07:32:22 PM »
Well I did go to my dyno with a outside temperature of 3 degrees, the joy was quickly gone as I could not get the ypvs to work.
Thought that I could use the second coil wire as trickering point for the ypvs sensor but it seems not to work like that.
Du to the cold I did not dyno a lot because the ypvs did not work, had to start the runs from 8000rpm everything below the engine had trouble to get the drum rolling.
But the results looks promising

From the 27,7HP to 28,7HP so a solid 1HP gain is not bad :)


Here some more results
http://www.tzr3ma.com/ignitech-runs.html
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 07:44:35 PM by Louis »
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Martin77

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #282 on: March 17, 2018, 08:43:55 PM »
Nice result so far! lovely... maybe 30hp is still within reach? I keep thinking I should have done some extra work on those transfers rather than just lifting them! I'll dig out the moulds I took to show you, and maybe compare them to the 4FU cylinder.

It also makes me wonder if the pv was fully opening before? just a thought...


Louis

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #283 on: March 17, 2018, 09:14:37 PM »
Hi Martin,

Quote
Nice result so far! lovely... maybe 30hp is still within reach?
That is still my target :) (but it is getting a difficult one)
Still ideas to work out
-Shorten the exhaust by 20mm to get peek at around 11000rpm
-34mm carb
-some small twists at the cylinder

Quote
I keep thinking I should have done some extra work on those transfers rather than just lifting them! I'll dig out the moulds I took to show you, and maybe compare them to the 4FU cylinder.
That would be great, as I don't understand what is so terrible wrong at the fransfers. I know that they are not race designed but really that bad?

Quote
It also makes me wonder if the pv was fully opening before? just a thought...
Did not thatch the ypvs motor it is still the oem three wire one witch has done all the priviaust runs in the same setup (no change there)

The ignitioncurve is different compare to the lasts dyno runs, so the gain should come from the ignition i think.
Here you have the stock +5 vs the Ignitech curve

« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 09:17:18 PM by Louis »
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Martin77

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Re: TZR125 4DL TRACK BIKE
« Reply #284 on: March 17, 2018, 10:23:43 PM »
ok cool.. yes, it's just a good gain from the ignition.

Here is a comparison between the 3MB cylinder transfers of your test cylinder (right side), and a 4FU (left)



much smoother shape and wider etc.. not that the older transfers are bad, but they aren't as aimed at top end hp as later ones. How much this would affect power though, I don't know!