94 SP oil pump and zeeltronic

[Devmeister]

I have tried to search and cant seem to find the answers.

I have a 94 SP, 3XV-B, i want to unleash the full power and need a Zeel  if i understand cortrectly. I seem to think that iI read somewhere that i have an electronic oil pump and it doesn't work with the Zeel, only mechanical oil pumps work.

Is this true? I dont want to go to pre mix

[SeaR1ck]

I know with my spr using the sugo cdi it has to run the mechanical oil pump. You will need the throttle cable that works the oil pump. I am not sure if the zeel can be programmed to work the oil solenoid setup or not.

[ybk]

Yeah, the zeal won't operate the oil pump so you need a mechanical one as well as the cable that operates it. The other option is to wire the stock CDI together with the zeel or sugo and use it to only operate the oil pump. Member injapan here has it working on his 3xvB, he has promised to take pictures of the setup so we can figure out which wires are required  (I imagine it will be power, throttle position and the solenoid circuitry..)

[Yuri]

Have a chat with Zeel see if you can get the vj23 cdi to work on the 3xv
The vj23 cdi do work the oil solenoids on vj23 bikes ...

[injapan]

This is my setup using the Sugo CDI and the standard one whilst keeping the electronic oil pump.

I think i have a brand new SP mechanical oil pump somewhere in my garage that I could sell if needed.

Mark

[mellorp]

The std Yamaha CDI closes the oil solenoids.  My VJ23 is the same. The zeeltronic is not set up to control any oil solenoids IIRC, even the VJ23

If you disconnect the oil solenoids they run at full capacity all the time. 

Fitting a zeeltronic when running a track back doesn't give you a problem as you are WOT most of the time and you want the oil pump doing the same. It's particularly good as when you shut off from WOT the oil keeps pumping at full chat

I've run a zeeltronic on my VJ23 on the road with no problems. I also put the zelltronic on my RS and converted it to a cable operated oil pump, again with no problems

So in answer to your question, simply put a zeeltronic on the SP and ride it. Set the zeeltronic rev limit to 12,500 and ignore the bikes rev counter unless you adjust it to read correctly. You can see how far out it is by setting the zeeltronic rev limit to 8,000 and go for a ride....

You will need pipes to unleash the potential of the zeeltronic and a few plug chops to get the jetting right

http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=2317.0

[ybk]

^^Good point. I wonder what ratio the pump mixes at idle vs full throttle? Just for reference if you're going to be running the solenoids at full capacity..

This is my setup using the Sugo CDI and the standard one whilst keeping the electronic oil pump.

I think i have a brand new SP mechanical oil pump somewhere in my garage that I could sell if needed.

Mark

Thanks Mark, have you got a higher resolution pic of that, hard to make out the wire colors. Are the extra wires just spliced into the main loom?

[yanw]

There are two ways to get the ratios I think.

The first is to get the bike running on premix and then connect the flow and return pipes off the solinoids to measuring cylinders and try at different revs/throttle openings.

The second, better way is to get the CDI into someone's test rig (was it Oliver or Louis?) and get the 3D map of the solinoid voltages (revs Vs TPS).

http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=1983.0

[Devmeister]

Thanks for all the replies and the heaps of info. I wanted to check as there is so much mis information all over the place.

I thought this would be a bit tricky. I think I will go for the Zeel and let the oil pump run full chat, it might be a big oily but i don't have the intention to ride it around town anyway. I guess they let them run at full capacity as a safety measure.

Well done to the chap in Japan......I'm not great mechanically and trying to explain to my local bike shop will be a nightmare!

I dont really want to butcher the bike as it is completely standard but i do want to release more of its potential. It has an M Max which i think is just the speed delimiter.

Is there a standard Zeel map that works well or i have to get it on a dyno and mapped? Is there any expert in the South East that can do it?

Thanks Ian

[ybk]

Continuing the solenoid subject - looking at its different inputs and outputs to better understand it before wiring in both the stock cdi with the sugo box. I just don't grasp how its better than the normal mechanical pump. The solenoid either directs oil towards the cylinder or it redirects the oil a loop to an upstream oil filter. The advantage supposedly is better control of the 2T delivery but I fail to see how it's more fine grained control over the normal R type mechanical pump?

With the mechanical pump you get varying ratios depending on throttle position. With the solenoid, the mechanical pump flows at a constant rate(?) with the solenoid shutting oil flow to the cylinder on or off based on some inputs (it's a 3/2 way type solenoid). For one thing why would you ever want to remove 2T flow from the cylinders, and secondly, to me it doesn't seem that you'll get much better control over the flow rate..

The VJ23 also runs a solenoid oil pump, they have a little diagram showing oil delivery rates in the manual, which seems quite basic and stops at 1500rpm (the steep line is the 2T delivery one, the other is oil delivery to the crank). Mr Suzuki says that the delivery rate depends on the TPS and RPM so that graph doesn't paint the whole picture. The physical layout matches the 3XV exactly apart from the oil lines feeding the crank.

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental

[yanw]

My understanding is that the solinoids are to provide specific delivery rates in certain conditions (*cough* dieselgate). The advantage of the dual wiring perhaps is not having to replace the pump or throttle cable, with the "dual-wire" being cheaper.

There may be conditions where the solinoids provide more oil, perhaps downhill etc but is suspected it is to lessen oil for testing.

Just my thoughts, not fact.

[Warwick]

Yes, like Yan, I've always assumed the solenoid system was simply to get them through the ever-tightening emissions regs that finally did for the strokers completely .

If I had a later model all that stuff would be coming off on any case I'd imagine

[Devmeister]

over the winter i'm going to give this a go with the Zeel. Lets see how it performs i will run it and do a plug chop to make sure it isnt lean.

The NSR seems to smoke a lot more when i did the wire splice at low revs, but Motul 700 does smell nice!

[ybk]

Haha yeah, didn't think about that. It does make sense really. At low revs/small throttle it appears to be in bypass mode, which means that the motor gets whatever oil is left in the last stretch of hose. At greater rpm/tps it flips to oil flow mode.

Just from rough testing, it looks like with the ignition on but not running the solenoids are fed with 0.4V, going full throttle changes to 13+V. When the engine is running it seems to invert the values; 13V is now at closed throttle(bypass mode) and 0.4V(oil flow mode) is full throttle. It makes sense because if the solenoids are faulty you'd still want it to feed the motor and not default to bypass mode.

Would be interesting(but pointless  ) to fully map it out based on RPM and the TPS throughout the rev range. I'll probably just dump the whole spaghetti mess.

over the winter i'm going to give this a go with the Zeel. Lets see how it performs i will run it and do a plug chop to make sure it isnt lean.

When you hook up the Zeel unplugging the solenoids from the loom should do the job. This should leave them in their oil feeding mode. It will probably be quite rich at low speeds but it'll be correct at higher speeds.

[Yuri]

I is also possible that it works with pulsing ?
At low rpm pulsing on a lot
High rpm not pulsing