Author Topic: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"  (Read 10788 times)

Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2018, 04:37:55 AM »
Thanks, Vinny. I agree. Several of James’ posts in my thread are worthy of “Stickies”. His treatment/lecture on jetting is phenomenal.

I just don’t know how to make a stickie happen.

I am honored he chose to offer his knowledge to my thread. Just haven’t had the time to ask further questions.

Surprising how difficult it was to pull the studs out of the cylinders. Good news: I didn’t break or bend anything. Got 10 out of twelve out (including exhaust) and sent the cylinders and pistons to “Powerseal”...today.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 06:32:38 AM by Steveog »
Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

jools

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2018, 10:34:32 PM »
Thanks, jools. Your advice runs parallel with Dan's, I believe. He was concerned for me over-cooling. Either way, there seems to be good reason to keep the thermostat.

A TZ750 must be one hell of a ride. Do you you race or just scare the Hell out of all the 4T's on track days?

I did "ride" this bike for a while but its a bit of a learning curve to "race" as it should be. I was told it was only a matter of time before I high sided it if I continued to ride it off the torque.......
With rule changes and combinations of classes here in Oz I wasn't game to risk a TZ750 on 18" treaded tyres against more modern bikes on 17" slicks. So i parked it plus its an original matching numbers bike i bought from a mate in Forest VA and I'm now assembling a 2nd TZ750 using a Dennis Curtis frame with newer CBR600 forks and 17" wheels. Its about 85% done. I was waiting for a gear change shaft and pawl to be made in NZ. Most engine parts are NLA. I had to have primary driven gears made for it and it will use a ducati dry clutch.
So I'll be doing a few track days before I see if I still have the bottle. ::)
Plus ce la change, plus ce la memchose

Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2018, 06:29:53 AM »
Thanks, Jools. Great report. Personally, I’d love to ride a 750. Racing one is above my pay-grade. You seem smart to hold the reigns tight on that beast.

I’m waiting on cylinder repair/replate for my 3xv. All the other crucial parts are in my shop...waiting.

In my part of the world it’s starting to be winter. Hoping to finish remodeling and insulating my Shop before attempted a bolt-up refurb on the TZR.

Best of luck to you. In Australia, this should be the beginning a good riding season.

Keep the rubber side down, Brother.

Merry/Happy Christmas.

Steve

Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2019, 02:59:01 AM »
My Shop is now insulated, heated and cleaned. (I wish I had taken a “Before” picture.) All the crucial parts are in my possession (a miracle of capitalism and our world’s communication/shipping systems).

No excuses left. Time to re-build 3xv1v.2.

A couple of questions while the disassembling proceeds:

I have a new TZ dual-core radiator. I want to use Silicone hoses. Can I use Samco hoses for a TZ? I’ve spoken with a Samco distributor and he wasn’t sure it would all work. Seems to me to be a simple adaptation.

Obviously, I’d be better off buying new front discs. My brakes are currently good, but want to turn them down for embracing new EBC pads (pads in hand). The book says 4mm is minimum tolerance. They are currently 4mm at their minimum width. If I have them trimmed to 3.9mm am I in danger? I’m 180 lbs., ride hard (for an old fart), but don’t brake so hard as to lift the rear wheel. Best guess is appreciated.

Considering modding up a “floating” rear brake caliper. As you know, that means mounting a stay-arm to the chassis, rather than the swing-arm. Why? It doesn’t transfer torque to the suspension. Admittedly, on a 3xv, the rear brake is rarely used in anger. Just an idea a TZ-racer friend recommended. But, if this is a good idea, now’s the time.

Can I simply replace the washers where they meet the frame in my “R” swing-arm for the rotary-needle bearing concept from the SP arm. This seems like a good mod, as “the more freely the the swing-arm can move, the more the suspension can work properly.”

I want a simple tach/temp for a dashboard. I have some ideas, but expert recommendations would be appreciated. Remember, I’ll be using a TZ radiator. Regular coils and as I work through this, will also adapt a Zeel. The Zeel unit is in hand.

Thanks in advance. There is no way I could have gotten this far without the quality advice/warnings and encouragement from this Forum.

First Track Day scheduled for April 22.

Project file to follow.










Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

ybk

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2019, 09:07:06 AM »
Getting there :)

Can't comment on the hoses really as I have no 1st hand experience but I think they are quite different. At a minimum the water intakes on the heads point in different directions.

The thinner the discs the more easily they warp from overheating so I'd probably opt for new discs. On a road bike it's fine really but on a track bike the brakes get quite a workout. That said I would just use them until they reach the minimum thickness naturally. You can always sand the pads and have them re-bed to new discs?

I saw Ducati experimented with a rear brake torque arm mounted on the chassis to redirect the brake forces:



But you'd probably have to be Marquez to notice a difference. I really don't like the look of a torque arm, the 3xv has a fairly clean and simple setup that I wouldn't mess with. A TZ has a neater smaller underslung caliper that might be a nice mod. I know Yuri has done it to his bike.

It would be cool to upgrade a R swingarm with the needle bearing stack but I suspect the R swingarm is wider than the SP so likely wouldn't fit. You're welcome to measure your R swingarm , I've got an SPR one lying here that I can compare with.

 8) (-P)

4l04ever

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2019, 05:53:01 PM »
Perhaps having the brake linked to the chassis instead of swingarm would affect squat/anti-squat depending if caliper is above or below the arm.  Perhaps it can be used to affect grip or power delivery if trail braking on the rear brake was used???
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Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2019, 07:39:17 PM »
Thanks to you both. I'm headed to the Shop. Will discuss further, later. I'll get some pics and measure the swing arm.

Appreciate the quick responses.

Steve
Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2019, 01:23:22 AM »
ybk - Good advice, as always. Specifically, the brakes. I am as far from Marquez, as we are in proximity to sharing a beer. The idea for a different style rear brake came from dirt bikes, wherein the rear brake is used far more aggressively than I do on my 3xv. I just remember attaching the stay-arm to the frame kept the bike from hopping under rear brake application.
So, I know there is a positive effect there. My FZR-400 has a stay arm above the swing arm, but it's attached to the swing-arm. Perhaps I'm intrigued because the set-up is "different". Regardless the rear brake will be one of the last things on my long list for the "build". I agree Ducati's version is ugly.
 
I got into taking the bike apart today and hit a snag with a very stubborn drive sprocket lock-nut. My impact driver had no effect. I know the drill for solving this problem, but just stopped for the day.

Pictures of my Shop and partial stripped 3xv attached. Yes, those are acorns. My Shop sits in a forest and we have mutant mice who like to nest in fiberglass insulation.

4104 - Appreciate your thoughts. Yes, there has to be some physics involved in attaching a stay arm to the chassis, but...well, you saw what I said to ybk.

Thanks again to you both. I'd appreciate any and all your thoughts on my project. The next installment will be in the "project" section.


 
 
Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

jools

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2019, 04:37:23 AM »
You need a bigger cat !

I can't comment on the rad - I use an SP rad, with std hoses, and swingarm in my std 3XV chassis c/w needle bearings and no modification was required so I would say they are the same width.

My 3YL TZ250 has Samco hoses. I'll compare the two tonight as all my bikes that are not being worked on reside in my front room........ 8)

Its too hot to be in the workshop at present, it was 43 degrees centigrade in there yesterday arvo when i went in for something  :o.
Plus ce la change, plus ce la memchose

Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2019, 04:56:24 AM »
Thanks, Jools.

Yes, our seasons are exactly opposite. We sit on the 38th parallel. Cold winters. Hot summers. (The reason I got a TZ Rad). It was 40(F) here, today. Snow by weekend. Temps in low 20’s (F). In the summer, I work near the doors. No a/c.

Also, I DO need a cat. Usually, Hawks and snakes take care of mice, but the 3xv has been sitting since is ate it’s lower crank bearing on 9/11/18. The mice here are indestructible it seems. I sealed off the rear carb’s induction, so they could only took a dump on my Shop towel. Fortunately, they didn’t get into the wiring.

Thanks for checking on hose compatibility. I’ve spent so much on this project so far, a little more for top-gun hoses seem logical, somehow.

Enjoy your summer. One of the few items on my bucket-list is to ride Phillip. Maybe, someday...
Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

ybk

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2019, 08:06:30 AM »
Nice to have a dedicated spot for bikes (-P)

I think the 3xv rear brake as it is will transfer a downwards force into the swingarm thereby trying to 'twist' it? with a torque arm that force is directed to the swingarm at its pivot point where the force is essentially negated. That's how I understand it..  ???  Like you I like the rear brake on track, has stabilising effect to me.

What kind of impact driver did you use on the sprocket? (air or electric..)

jools

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2019, 11:19:42 AM »
Thanks, Jools.

Yes, our seasons are exactly opposite. We sit on the 38th parallel. Cold winters. Hot summers. (The reason I got a TZ Rad). It was 40(F) here, today. Snow by weekend. Temps in low 20’s (F). In the summer, I work near the doors. No a/c.

Also, I DO need a cat. Usually, Hawks and snakes take care of mice, but the 3xv has been sitting since is ate it’s lower crank bearing on 9/11/18. The mice here are indestructible it seems. I sealed off the rear carb’s induction, so they could only took a dump on my Shop towel. Fortunately, they didn’t get into the wiring.

Thanks for checking on hose compatibility. I’ve spent so much on this project so far, a little more for top-gun hoses seem logical, somehow.

Enjoy your summer. One of the few items on my bucket-list is to ride Phillip. Maybe, someday...

Phillip Island is a great track, unfortunately like many sports that become popular it is pricing the average participant out of the game.

eg

If I entered the support race at the Island classic later this month it would cost me around A$550 inc garage space for one class over the three days.
I would get a 15 min qualify session, 2 x 4 lap races and 2 x 5 lap races PROVIDED they do not have any stoppages in which case they tend to reduce the laps.

Accommodation for 5 nights
Fuel for 2100km round trip around 3 tanks diesel towing trailer
with food and everything else I would be lucky to get change out of A$1500.

Alternatively, Entering Spa Bikers Classic cost 420 Euro for one bike (~A$700)
Share of garage isn't cheap though but they will hold 15 bikes comfortable - 110 GBP
accommodation is about the same cost
Travel 500km return from Zeebrugge ferry, 300km to Hull ferry return - 1 tank diesel.
Ferry Hull Zeebrugge return is overnight and pricey but its a good craic with the lads and include accommodation.
for that we get 6 x 20 minute sessions and on the Sunday you can usually sneak out into some of the other last sessions as folk pack up early.

Of the two tracks I prefer Spa - much more character and undulating through the forest. Weather can be dodgy but then so is Phillip Island at times.


Now going back to the hoses - If you are fitting the TZ Radiator to an SP engine you could probably get away with the TZR samco hoses with some trimming as required, but as I cant remember what the 3XVR top end connection hose connection is like compared to my SP Rad and SP top end I'm not sure. I reckon the hose to the water pump from the gear change side rad outlet and the bottom rad hose of the two outlets on the kickstart side of the rad would fit.

Plus ce la change, plus ce la memchose

Steveog

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2019, 08:38:15 PM »
ybk - Thanks. When my wife wanted to move to our current location (16 years ago), all I saw was that it came with a 26' X 30' sheet metal building. The former owner used it for his car (thus the massive stain on the floor). The space is great for bikes, but until recently only a good Shop during warmer months. I've attached a before and after picture from this past summer. The Shop came very close to being a pile of scrap with my TZR and FZR at the bottom. We live an area prone to violent thunderstorms and tornadoes. The tree you see used to be 85 feet (26M) tall.

Yes. You're assumption of the physics involved in a torque arm vs. stock config is the same as mine. I doubt it will make much difference, but I have "hopped" the rear tire on corner entries when being less than smooth with trail braking. Low priority at the moment. Thanks for your input.

I have an old, but hefty, industrial, ELECTRIC impact driver. Now, one thing I forgot to remind everyone is that my 3xv engine currently can't be turned over with the kick starter. The crank is locked. How much damage could I be adding to the situation by beating on the sprocket nut with an impact driver. Its not turning the output shaft.

Here's what I did yesterday: Took the bike off the rear stand, so that the rear tire was on the concrete. Then, shifted it into second gear, expecting the the tyre, chain, transmission and clutch to hold the drive-sprocket in place, used the impact driver attempting to break the nut loose. I did this about three times for 30 seconds per attempt. No Joy. Stopped, got a cold one and came to the Forum. Just this morning, I used a good dousing of Kroil on the nut. I'm tempted to buy a 32mm box-end wrench and use that with a breaker bar as opposed to more impact driver. Maybe opening the side cover and jamming the primary drive gears is a better approach than using the chain and tyre solution. In fact, that's what I'm going to try next.

After that, I'll try a propane torch on the nut.

I do have a good air compressor, but no air tools. Thanks for your feedback.

jools - Thanks for the sharing your experiences. I was thinking more of track day experience. I really don't want to race. I know the California Superbike School offers one-day camps at Phillip. Several of their instructors are Aussies. That means my expense at the track is only $575. They provide 2019 S1000RR's and food for the day. The extreme plane trip and accommodation expenses are the big road block for me.

Here in the US, you might like Road America or Barber Motorsports Park. Both have forest scenery and great assortment of elevation changes. If you choose Road America, bring a bunch of ponies with you. The track has several long straights. 200+ mph on top liter bikes. It is a spectacular set-up, though. Laguna Seca is the ideal track for hot 3xv. No straight of any length. The double corkscrew is coveted by even the Moto-Gp guys. The evenings in Monterey during a race weekend will never be forgotten. 20 or more 3-5 star restaurants. Bikes everywhere. Bring cash.

Thanks for info on the Samco Hoses. I looked at Paul's 3xv project thread, again. He used Samco Hoses, but that doesn't answer the question of TZ radiator to "R" model heads mod. I have measurements and pictures (attached). The odd detail is that one hose has wider ID at the mouth than the run of the hose. (???) One thing I've read about silicone hoes is that they cannot be over-tightened or forced over the inlet pipe. That makes this even more confusing. Thanks for your help.

Steve
Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the best game of all.

jools

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2019, 09:06:49 PM »
Steve
 I have a feeling the R radiator only has single outlet each side ? You could check yours does it have the water manifold above the engine. It’s a long time ago since I had the std R in the frame ????
California school is good value. I used at Eastern Creek with my TZR. Recommended. Some of the drills are hairy on a two stroke with no engine braking. Character building.
Plus ce la change, plus ce la memchose

thump566

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Re: A few question preceeding "Winter Build"
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2019, 11:46:12 PM »

I have an old, but hefty, industrial, ELECTRIC impact driver. Now, one thing I forgot to remind everyone is that my 3xv engine currently can't be turned over with the kick starter. The crank is locked. How much damage could I be adding to the situation by beating on the sprocket nut with an impact driver. Its not turning the output shaft.

Here's what I did yesterday: Took the bike off the rear stand, so that the rear tire was on the concrete. Then, shifted it into second gear, expecting the the tyre, chain, transmission and clutch to hold the drive-sprocket in place, used the impact driver attempting to break the nut loose. I did this about three times for 30 seconds per attempt. No Joy. Stopped, got a cold one and came to the Forum. Just this morning, I used a good dousing of Kroil on the nut. I'm tempted to buy a 32mm box-end wrench and use that with a breaker bar as opposed to more impact driver. Maybe opening the side cover and jamming the primary drive gears is a better approach than using the chain and tyre solution. In fact, that's what I'm going to try next.

After that, I'll try a propane torch on the nut.

I do have a good air compressor, but no air tools. Thanks for your feedback.


Was in a similar predicament recently, after serious dousing, impact driver and then professional air ratchet to no avail. Eventually got the sprocket nut off using a Dremel cutting disc and very carefully ensuring not to damage the thread by cutting across one side of the nut diagonally. Did the job  :P (-P)
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