3xv: Project Phoenix

[Steveog]

I've been living in the 3xv Forum since this past February. Learned a lot about these amazing bikes. Totally addicted and now ready to start my own project thread. Thanks to all of you who brought me this far. Very grateful. Hope you"ll hang with me.

I intend to resurrect an "R" model that was purchased from a USA dealer, taken directly to track days. WOT on 1.2km straights. After an entire summer (2018) tweaking its stock config and riding it as hard as possible, it gave up on 9/11. A rather profound date for us here in America. Diagnosis on the 3xv Forum was crank bearing failure. I now believe that is absolutely accurate.

The bike is currently, partially disassembled, but want to take it down completely, powder-coat frame/swing arm and upgrade all chassis bearings and seals. On to the engine:

Since the lock-up I have gathered a new SP crank (Thanks Andy @ Webb's), Wossner pistons/rings/wrist pins/circlips (Thanks jsnook), Martin77 ported "R" cylinders (Thanks, Martin for all your help. You know what I mean). The cylinders have been repaired, plated and diamond honed by "PowerSeal", all OEM engine seals, and a pattern gasket package.

Normally, these projects start at the beginning, but now that I've pulled the crank and can assess the damage of a blown bearing, I'd appreciate any opinions on what I found in the crankcase. (See attachments)

These gouges are not very deep and I believe could be sanded down. Is this a proper procedure? If not, please enlighten me before I go further towards reassembly.

Many more pics available. But, I'm doing this from my phone.

Thanks.

Steve

[Andy Bush]

Steve ,
Looks like those score marks are not on the bearing mounting points ? More in line with the big end run. If so i’d Say smooth them over with sand paper, quick polish , and it will be fine ?
Good luck with the project
Andy

[Warwick]

Yes, no problem to smooth that out a bit, Steve. I've had to do a couple of those myself over the years... Does the discolouration on the main bearing bearing recess suggest the main has been spinning a bit too? Hard to tell from the pics. The peg on the bearing should prevent that though really. Was the peg still in place and located properly? If so, may the discolouration is just heat from the bearing?

[Steveog]

Thanks, boys. Your info brought great relief.

Sorry I didn't post better/more pics. I've included a few more here related to your comments and questions.

Andy - Yes. The gouges are only in the big end run.

Warwick - The crank was solidly mounted on its bearing pegs when I pulled the case. The discoloration matches that of the piston, cylinder and head of the LH cylinder. Both big end runs showed good oiling. You'll see that I was very fortunate, as the rod big-end looks as if it would have broken had I not pulled the clutch when it went off-song.

There appears to be a tear in the outer seal on the side of the bearing failure. Not sure if this is bad enough to consider it a cause, effect or irrelevant. I have new OEM seals on hand.

Its (-6.7C) here today. Better go fire up the heaters in the shop.

 

[Steveog]

With the engine mostly disassembled, I was able to inspect the bearings and gear box. Only one real problem: The ball that's supposed to sit between clutch actuation shaft and the clutch hub innner plate interface was missing. As best as I could measure, it seems to be either a 3 or 4mm ball. Going to try to source that locally. All the bearings seemed solid, but plan on replacing the main output and balance shaft bearings. Here in the mid-west, USA I prefer Timkin or SKF brand. All the seals will be replaced. Nothing radically wrong, but many seals are leaking just a bit. After getting the motor mostly disassembled, I moved to the chassis.

I kept the wiring harness attached to itself and pulled it all as one unit. I plan on more wiring clean-up. I also pulled the rear brake system as one unit. My thinking is, "Why confuse things at this point? Keep it simple (as possible), stupid." Then I hit a big snag with the swing arm pivot. On another thread, Searick suggested tipping the bare frame on its side and applying lots of penetrating oil. I started that process last night. Rick rightly pointed out that, "the bike probably hadn't been taken down that far since it was in the factory." Plan on testing the pivot bolt by tapping the threaded end with a brass driver and steel hammer.

Here's a few pics from the last two sessions.

[Steveog]

My first attention was obviously the swing-arm pivot seizure. The Kroil had soaked though to the other side of the pivot point, so confidence was high. I made a tool out of a 3" X 1/2" socket extension, wrapped in tape to sit down in the cavity of the pivot shaft. Hit it a few times...hard with a normal steel hammer. No Joy. Then, even though my "Spider-sense" was telling me this would be over-kill, used a sledge hammer. Still, No Joy. I had braced the alternate side with lumber, so that the frame casting around the pivot was supported. Nothing broken, but simple brute force isn't the way.

I proceeded to strip the rest of the chassis down to just the frame, swing-arm and triple clamps. I laid the bike back on its side, loaded it up with more Kroil. Will try again tomorrow, but no sledgehammer. Searick sent me a great link where in a frozen pivot bolt was removed with liquid nitrogen. I was thinking that because my bike is sitting overnight in cold workshop, perhaps heating the outer portion of the swing-arm pivot with a propane torch might help break things loose, then try the hammer again. Anyone try this method? Any reason not to try this?

I also thought of using a hydraulic press, but the rig I would have to build would be so complex, I might as well just take it to a machine shop. Pros would be cheaper and I'd only use my DIY press once.

I found some odd gouges deep inside the under portion of the swing-arm. This is not welding slag. Can someone identify what's happened in the past to have caused this?

Here's a few pics, but I didn't get any of the set up I was using to break the pivot seizure. Tomorrow.

Thanks.

 

[SeaR1ck]

Keep at it but i had to once on my 06 yz125  a few years into owning it. Literally cut the rear axle off to get it out.  Blew me away cause I always grease the axle with anti seize and have had it off n on many times before.

I never noticed it before but brand new someone at the factory used a steel spacer for the inside of the hub. It should have been aluminium! Damn steel spacer rusted its self together with the steel bearing race surface.

This is probably what your fighting with.

[ybk]

I like your stand Quite an improvement on mine!

Regarding the ballbearing, check if it's still inside the pushrod housing at the end of the pushrod, sometimes they get stuck there.

Good idea on the seals and bearings. Clean the internal oil pump filter on the gearbox plate while you're at it - it's just a simple metal screen inside the housing but often it has a lot of crap in it.

Not sure why the swingarm is so stuck, I've never had one that was stuck. Can't think what would be holding on to it really, the shaft sits on roller bearings inside the swingarm.. Some heat could be a good idea as you mentioned.

By the way no need to remember the bolt locations for the crank cover, the manual has the tightening/loosening order and sizing with the 2 stage torque process:



Keep it up, pretty satisfying stripping the bike to the last bolt and bearing and rebuilding. Wouldn't want to do it with a modern bike!

[Steveog]

Thanks, Guys. I need all the help and encouragement I can get. The replacement costs for the pivot shaft and internal bushings is about $200 on Megazip. I really want to avoid destroying those parts, just to solve this problem.

After reading the link you sent me, Rick, I have concluded that I just need some patience. Kroil, Heat, Bang. Repeat. Also, Rick, you might be right as to where the real problem is in my case, but I'm believing that the long bushing inside the swing arm is where its frozen. That said, the swing-arm does show some side play. I believe that means its not frozen at the bearings. 

ybk - I did tap the clutch shaft housing on the bench, thinking the ball was just stuck. No Joy. Will check again.This motor had been apart..at least on the clutch side. I showed a pic of the balance shaft drive safety washer being previously bent, but what I didn't show was that someone carved their initials on the surface of the balance shaft drive gear. See pic. Yeah, I figured those crankcase bolts were universal. I wasn't worried that I couldn't remember where they went, more about precisely matching thread pitches. It shouldn't matter, perhaps OCD took over. Yes. On filter in tranny. I will jump back into the motor, while I wait out the swing-arm pivot. Rick pointed out that my bike probably hadn't been apart this far since the factory 28 years ago. Surprised others haven't encountered this problem. Rick sent me a link to a dirt-bike forum where this happens all the time. Every solution imaginable is in that thread. Including: Liquid Nitrogen. Let's hope I don't have to go that far.

Any clue on those gouges under the swing arm? It had to have happened after it was re-painted. It has never been down while I've had it.

[Warwick]

I've never had one stuck like that Steve, but In view of it being so welded in place I'd be very surprised if the bearings and sleeve aren't rusted as the bearing faces and the needle rollers are the only points of contact in there. I took one apart recently that was an easy tap out and the bearing and sleeve were toast on one side.

Have you tried rigging up some kind of puller using a long bolt or threaded rod and some suitable spacers and nuts to try to draw the spindle out rather than bashing it?   

[Steveog]

The puller was going to be my next move, Warwick. Thanks. But, I just got it to break loose. Followed one of the dirt-bike tricks Rick sent me. What a relief. Much the same as breaking the primary drive nut. Better than sex? No. But, the anticipation of joy definitely lasted longer.

I got as far as the pictures show and stopped, as I don't have a drift sufficient to knock the pivot bolt all the way out. On my way to town right now. A brass drift is going to be a lot cheaper than a new pivot shaft and bushing.

Everyone working on these bikes should have Kroil and a propane torch.

[ybk]

Haha yeah satisfaction when you been battling it for a while!

Have you got some more pics of the gouges?

For ballbearing sizing see pic. At 6.35 it is still held lightly by the vernier, at 6.4 it falls.

[Steveog]

ybk - Thanks. I've got a 36" X 3/8" inch socket extension that I've used for fork maintenance. Should get the swinger apart today. If it doesn't start to move with less effort, hammering, I'm tempted to make a puller as Warwick suggested. The threaded end of the pivot is a bit buggered (not mushroomed). Don't want to make it worse. Thinking of using an aluminum plug inserted between the socket extension and the thread end of the pivot. I should be able to rotate the shaft now that the closed end is available.

The precise measurement is very helpful. I tried with straight-edge and got 4mm. I definitely need a value-oriented caliper and torque wrench. Embarrassed to admit that I don't have good versions of those tools, now that the bike is almost dissembled. The OEM ball is only $0.10-$1.46 USD on Megazip, but the shipping is $23USD. Money better spent toward tools, I believe. Locally, my "go to" bearing shop does offer single balls (even ceramic), but they're measured in inches. Easy to convert. A bit odd, since they have all the other metric bearing I need, including the radial thrust bearings that will be mounted on the end of the swing arm.

I'll get some better pics of the gouges once the swing-arm is apart. Will appreciate your opinion.

Steve
   

[Steveog]

Victory. The pivot bolt had been soaked in Kroil overnight. A bit more heat and it came out completely. The bushing also slid out with the help of vice grip (very light compression). Now, it got interesting, again. The steel thrust washers had molecularly bonded to the aluminum of swing arm pivot cavity. So, both SeaRick and Warwick were right in their long range diagnosis. Well done, boys. Thanks.

I had to break the washers with a diamond grinder on the Dremel, followed by a chisel. The bearing were so damaged by this process they fell apart and were relatively easy to get out. This past summer, while riding the bike, the suspension was working, but not nearly as intended. Excited to fix all this and ride a real 3xv.

ybk - Concerning the gouges under the swing-arm. It now looks obvious to me that there was some damage done to the bike down there...maybe in shipping. I can see that the weld bead has broken loose at the arrows in the pic titled "Swinger_Gouge". Must get a pro involved. Guessing its better to have the swinger blasted clean, first. All opinions on this situation and repair recommendations are welcome.

This session was a true bitch and shows what can happen when regular maintenance is ignored...specifically for those of us who bought used bikes, just gave a quick walk around, fresh fluids and then rode them. DON'T EXPECT ANY RESELLER TO GO TO THIS LEVEL OF PREPARATION BEFORE YOU BUY. In fact, find a guy like Rick who does these refurbs for a living, specifically if you don't feel qualified to tear it all apart before riding it in anger.

Here's a few picks of today's work.

Steve   

[Warwick]

Yes, a few more $$$s to spend there, Steve. But, as you say, at least things will be working properly once it's all made good. The repairs should certainly improve the handling a bit...

Have you stripped and checked the bearings and sleeves in the linkage too?

I can't really see what's happened with the swingarm from the pics above?