Author Topic: 3xv: Project Phoenix  (Read 174429 times)

Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #450 on: August 20, 2019, 01:47:07 AM »
Damn. I thought this solution was pretty creative. HA. Truth often hurts.

Yes, Warwick your suggestion would be ideal. I wish I had a large collection of carb parts. But, I’ve only been “collecting” for a bit over a year.

This specific kit doesn’t resemble the upper carb’s adjuster much. As I stated, it was made for a Banshee. But, was an inexpensive solution.

My thinking is, if I can get this to work with a new throttle control for at least two more track days, I might consider a 32 or 36mm carb mod over winter.

Sorting out the 28’s is priority one. I’m very close on the mains, need to get tick-over and smooth pick-up, as it was with the -00 box about this time, last year.

Thanks for your honest assessment of my current options. It may not be ideal, but clears the way for proper throttle cables and normal idle adjustments.

I did compare the “kit” to the OEM adjuster. The OEM is a tighter thread pitch..more accurate. But, the kit fits my current budget and strategy.

Tuning in the Zeel is all part of this, of course.

I’ve reset the pilot’s to #15 and needles to #3 clip position. Even though richer, trackside tuning showed that “leaner” was wrong.

I do have a large selection of springs. I’ll see what can be done internally, but didn’t intend this to be a permanent solution...unless it worked.

Steve
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Warwick

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #451 on: August 20, 2019, 08:44:33 AM »
Ha! Sorry if it came over a little abruptly, Steve. I was dashing a quick post out on my way out the door... So long as you effectively gain control of the slide stop so that the slide's not simply hanging on the cable at rest it will be a useful improvement over what you had before I'm sure.   8) (-P)
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #452 on: August 20, 2019, 05:22:13 PM »
Hey, thanks Warwick. Your comment didn't seem abrupt at all. My first sentence was meant as a joke. I have bodged-up several mods that work, but need a bit more careful engineering. The throttle cable being one, recently.

I much prefer honest critiques to "feel good sunshine."

The video shows that the slide adjuster works. That lock-nut with an o-ring should hold the nose of the adjuster in place on the slide. I'll post the results once its all together. I'm ordering up the throttle cable today. I've decided to save a few bucks and go with the single cable/single splitter solution. Also, many more options for quicker turn throttle tubes. Your detailed write-up on using the TZ pieces with the 28mm carbs was very helpful in making this decision.

Steve
 
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #453 on: August 26, 2019, 11:28:28 PM »
In the UK, these guys spring to mind immediately. Appreciate you are in the US but may be worth a look albeit yet another custom cable you may end up considering?

https://www.venhill.co.uk/

Just a thought.

Thump. I ended up with a DIY Venhill kit sold on Amazon here in the US. Under $60USD. Free shipping. Maybe this kit is what you were referencing. Regardless, the Venhill Kit isn't specifically as heavy as stock, but seems solid, offers plenty cable, Teflon liners and joining pieces that are perfect for my bike. Thanks.

Nothing new on the tuning front. I have the carbs off for thorough cleaning and evaluation of all parts. Looking for anything that might have been overlooked in the rush to get to the last track day.

Working toward a Track Day on September 14. My partner bought a 2002 Graves Racing R-1. Plenty for us both to do.

Steve
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #454 on: August 29, 2019, 12:31:08 AM »
When looking at quick-turn throttles, I noticed that some were variable-ratio. So, I modded up an experimental progressive-variable idea using the stock 3xv throttle tube. The pics probably explain things, but that's a cable-tie being used to create the ramp for the throttle cable. The filler is JB Epoxy.

Between the two pictures, I trimmed things to be as precise as possible and cleaned up the ragged plastic. Finishing was done with a Dremel sanding drum, a sanding sponge, 320 grit sandpaper and a fresh utility knife blade. A groove was cut for cable-travel with a Dremel friction cutting disc. The throttle housing required at bit of grinding and filing to provide proper clearance.

Tests shows that it works smoothly to pull the slide from zero to full open. The original 3xv cable was 1/4 turn. This version is full open at about 3/8's turn maybe a bit less.

Now to attach the new cables and tune the carbs.

Steve
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:46:37 AM by Steveog »
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Warwick

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #455 on: August 29, 2019, 12:53:55 AM »
Looks good, Steve.  Be interseting to hear how it feels with the new cable set-up.  (-P)
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #456 on: August 29, 2019, 01:13:33 AM »
Hey, Thanks Warwick. It works well with the old throttle cable, but you’re right...riding it is the only true test.

That’s at least a week away. Going to try Dan’s idea on the PV’s (full closed to 7K. Full open at 10K. Also, Phil’s sent me some of his RS maps. Great, generous starting points with the Zeel.

One big tuning variable is my dropping the VAJ. Wondering if, “because the bike was soft from pick-up to partial throttle, wouldn’t it benefit from a leaner fixed air jet?”

Probably better to play with the basics first. YES?

Appreciate the support.

Steve
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Warwick

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #457 on: August 29, 2019, 08:23:17 PM »
As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, when running a similar set-up (Sugo rather than Zeel ignition) I found the carburation to be fine through the range just with the central VAJ jet open, so I didn't experiment with any air jet changes.

Have you tried a quick experiment of swapping back to the -00 CDi with the air jet wiring left disconnected to see if that makes any improvement to the feel/drive lower down? If it does, that would suggest that it's the ignition or PV opening that you need to work on. If it's still poor, that would point more to the jetting (I'm guessing that you have checked that the central airjet is the correct fitment and clear here?).

The easiset way to experiment with the air jetting is to find some old small jets (or some nylon plugs maybe?) that you can drill to different sizes with micro-drills and fit directly in the end of the VAJ hoses to test. You need to bear in mind though that changing the size of the air jet will impact on the fuelling throughout the rev range to a grreater or lesser extent, so as always with these things, caution is your friend... 
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 12:50:07 AM by Warwick »
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #458 on: August 30, 2019, 12:22:29 AM »
Lots to consider, Warwick. Yes, I remember your comment about running just the main air jet, but it was couched with the caveat that it might run a bit richer. Believe I showed my mod of the VAJ box (its unplugged and the secondary jets are covered. Pic included). I decided to leave the stock VAJ unit in place, thinking it would be easier to jump back to the stock config, if things were complete shit. 

Because the bike was so strong between 7-12.5K rpm testing around my home and still great between 9-12.5 on Hellish hot track day, I don't believe I'll be going back to TPS and VAJ. Phil makes a great case for tuning with the stock system, but I'd like to find the answer to a clean-running average setting without the clutter of those sub-systems.

With what you've just said, (and Dan) I believe the answer is in the PV tuning. If I can get the mid-range close to the best stock running, I'll be happy.

Yes. Experimenting with the stock -00 ECU would be an easy test, helping to diagnose my current idle to mid-jetting running.

Thanks for the leads and options. If needed, I'll get a few appropriate air jets to play with.

Steve
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:35:10 AM by Steveog »
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #459 on: September 12, 2019, 02:31:03 AM »
I haven’t posted any progress, because I had a major problem at our last track day. Everything I reported was true, but much as with some US media, “it’s what I didn’t say that was just plain “fake news”.”

The hose coming from the radiator to the coolant pump impeller input blew off somewhere in the middle of session #6, mid-afternoon. Temps almost 100F. Things locked up quickly. I took the ride of shame back to the paddock with another unfortunate rider, who’s R-6 also decided not to work in those conditions.

About an hour later, the bike was no longer locked and I was tempted to try a restart. My better angel said, “No, dumbass.”

Meanwhile: My partner rode off the track in turn one at about 70mph. The grass wasn’t very good traction. He slid out, low-side. At my insistence, we spent some time in “Medical”. I believe he suffered a mild concussion.

With some help from fellows in the pits, we packed up, I cracked a cold one and set off for home. Road Atlanta is a Hell of a Track. We were not the first nor last to discover its tricks. But, we will be back.

Back in the shop: The LH cylinder and piston were torched. No hope. The cylinder has since been repaired, plated, honed and back home on the engine. I had a pair of back-up Wossner piston kits. (planning for 2020. HA. Having back-up now means,  “I stand a good chance of making a Track Day on 9/28”.)

The RH piston was pitted on the crown, but salvageable. The head unscathed. It wasn’t apparent at first, but the RH piston had obviously made contact with the head. When I pulled the piston for inspection, the reason for failure was obvious. The wrist pin bearing had failed. Probably due to overheating and loss of lube.

So, thanks to Martin 77 I have a new LH head skimmed and volume validated. (Thanks to JSNook, I had all the Wossner parts. Thanks to Warwick and ybk for their kind ear and positive advice. Thanks to my local bank for extending a bit of credit.)

I now have a new, silicone hose feeding the engine, plus appropriate clamps.

I apologize to The Forum members who have followed my adventure for delays in this reporting. Simply, I was embarrassed, as I had just rebuilt the 3xv. I double checked the hose. It was cinched properly, but my personal philosophy is, “The last one to touch it has the fault.”

So, here’s Phoenix v.2 engine. Ready for reeds and carbs. Looking forward to getting back to tuning. Dan M had a good suggestion for programming the Zeel. I’ll start there.

Back to the future.

Steve
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 03:09:59 AM by Steveog »
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Warwick

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #460 on: September 12, 2019, 09:52:18 PM »
I'd imagine that there are very few of us who haven't made a few unexpected offerings to the Gods of Speed, Steve. Don't worry about it - It's all part of the price of membership of the congregation...  :))
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Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #461 on: September 13, 2019, 01:59:53 AM »
Thanks, Pastor. HA. I guess confession is good after all.

About to finish the engine. Discovered that the stock reed stops were not to SP specs. Believe it was ybk who tried to tell me what to do. Re: Adjusting reed stops for an M77 porting job. But, my measuring tools then, must have been prehistoric. Today, using proper calipers, I discovered that the stops were way under fully open.

Wondering how this might effect jetting. Seems it could lean things out, but my mains are currently dialed. I have larger jets available. Currently running 270/200.

Will have engine in chassis and carbs installed, soon...hopefully Saturday.

Again, yours and all the support here are well appreciated.

Steve
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ybk

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #462 on: September 13, 2019, 08:12:41 AM »
 A seized motor weighs heavy on the spirit so it's good to have it back together! (-P) Not sure how much of an effect the reeds will have but if Yamaha thought it worthwhile then it's probably worth it.

Martin77

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #463 on: September 13, 2019, 10:52:02 AM »
Probably not much change to jetting compared to the 'restricted' R reed stop height..

The seize was in some ways a lucky incident, in terms of the small end breaking up on the other side, saving it from more damage if the rollers came out. Having one cylinder to plate is a pain, having too is twice the pain.

Anyway, I have a small shelf of broken pistons. For some reason throwing them away seems like a waste, even though they're no good... offerings at the alter to the god of two strokes.

Steveog

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Re: 3xv: Project Phoenix
« Reply #464 on: September 13, 2019, 04:59:25 PM »
Thanks, Guys. Your support is/has been invaluable.

Karel - On the angled side of the reed black, the stopper appears to have taken a a few kisses from the petals. I polished those stoppers before the first re-assembly. Makes me think the motor wanted to pull more mixture. Concerning SP spec on the stoppers, I'm now sorted. As you say, Yamaha must have believed it was a good idea.

Martin - Good to know I'm probably not looking at a re-jet on the mains. Yeah, I'm keeping all the broken stuff, too. A good reminder to double check all work as I go and that the gods of 2T entropy are always lurking.

Hope to have a test start by Monday or Tuesday. Weather here is good. Warmish, but low humidity.

Enjoy your weekend, Boys.

Steve
Brief, fleeting Glory. Which of itself cannot last, but while it does is the greatest game of all.