Author Topic: SUGO CDI for Borut...  (Read 31291 times)

41juergen

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SUGO CDI for Borut...
« on: March 25, 2013, 04:24:36 PM »
Hi guys,

I meet Borut from Zeeltronic last week at my home. He owns a 3XV now too  :D

We had a talk and Borut would be interested to get the ignition, power valve and power jet mapping out of a SUGO CDI. As I don't have one (I send him my -10 and -40 CDI for reference checks) I would like to ask if somebody would send him a SUGO box? If so pls. let me know I can arrange the contact (or if you already have contact just mail him directly).

Juergen

maccas

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 04:58:15 PM »
Juergen,

That sounds great! I'd be very interested in seeing that information! Sadly I can't help as I don't have a SUGO cdi. Plus there are lots of different SUGO cdi's which one does Borut require?

Cheers,

Dan

Jakes

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 05:55:40 PM »
That would be quite awesome - the prices sugo cdi's are going for nowadays are pretty bad so an alternative would be cool. Maccas is right - there's 3 or 4 different sugo cdi's. Either way it would be great to have sugo cdi maps available off the shelf so to speak..

How would one go about extracting the map from a cdi? ?:-|
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 05:57:25 PM by Jakes »

maccas

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 06:16:50 PM »
By the way it seems the SUGO cdi ignition maps are designed for use with AVGAS race fuel as they use quite alot of advance.

I went down the programmable route as that way you can tailor the ignition settings to work with whatever state of tune your engine is in. The ignition curve no longer becomes the limiting factor.

Dan

Paul

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »
Even if you copied a sugo cdi and bolted it to a sugo kitted bike it wouldn't be the same. it would be better, because your spark is better.
And if you took a sugo kitted bike with a sugo copied zeel/igni cdi to a Dyno you would end up changing it.
What's the issue with most believing in a programmable cdi giving you the facility to optimise your state of tune, you need a few Dyno runs, tis all.
All zeel and igni need to do is make them more plug and play, then there wouldn't be this big issue.
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Jakes

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 06:32:25 PM »
I agree with you Paul, this would nice as it would give people a plug and play option and a reference point to start from (ie, a map that mr yamaha approves of ;). Then if you're so inclined you can adjust to suit the bike's state of tune. 8)

maccas

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 06:37:27 PM »
The thing is though that the SUGO curve is designed to work with all the kit parts as a whole. So for each part you are missing from the race kit, the further you are away from the ignition curve being optimum.

At a guess (going on other peoples experience) my bike would not work very well at all with a SUGO 70 or 80 box as my bike is running on 95 unleaded and a compression ratio of 8.3:1. In order for my bike to work the ignition advance has been lowered to suit the spec.

Dan

jcsnook

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2013, 07:19:13 PM »
I have a -9A box available for use, but my -80 box is/will be in use on my 93 R/RS 3XV.  I believe the -9A boxes are programmed to operate the later model SP's with the guillotine style PV's, while the -70, -80 boxes are for operating the drum style.

Now these are not damaged at all when the data is extracted right? ?:-|  I need to sell this thing someday  ;)

What do I get for loaning out my box...a free or discounted Zeel box? ::)
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Kingy38

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 12:32:36 AM »
The thing is though that the SUGO curve is designed to work with all the kit parts as a whole. So for each part you are missing from the race kit, the further you are away from the ignition curve being optimum.

At a guess (going on other peoples experience) my bike would not work very well at all with a SUGO 70 or 80 box as my bike is running on 95 unleaded and a compression ratio of 8.3:1. In order for my bike to work the ignition advance has been lowered to suit the spec.

Dan

my 3XV worked VERY well on a SUGO cdi @ Cadwell Park,running on super unleaded,with Martin77 pipes & porting,and 28mm carbs,not sure what the comp ratio was though,but it ran well enough to give Gecko Dan a bloody good run for his money.... ;D

Neal

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 12:35:43 AM »
I have a 75 box that i can help with , will he need a wire loom too ?
I was going to do the comparisons when i got my stuff sorted out . Let me know the details and i will help out for sure .
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41juergen

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 02:42:40 PM »
Hi guys,

thank's for the feedback. Some of the questions I can answer right here:

- the CDI will be of course not damaged (Borut knows what he is doing  ;)  )
- he already has a loom incl. TPS sensor and a PV (and the other stuff for the -10 and -40 CDI )
- of course the SUGO's are designed for the respective kits at that MY. At least we would get an idea what the mappings were for the specific kit setup (incl. the specified fuel)
- to get the data out of the CDI he simulates the pick up signal with a signal generator. With a oscilloscope he measures / calculates the advance for the ignition timing. The PV and VAJ / PJ can be easily detected / measured by position respective on / off function.
- the benefit / discount for everybody needs to be negotiated. I will not ask for any additonal discount loaning him my parts as I will also get a result out of it. I already had the plan to buy a Zeel for my 3XV too (I have already for my RZ one with some special features  8)  )

@ JIM, Neal: if you would be willing to loan him the CDI would be perfect (at least we would get 1 set of data each for a "drum" and a "guillotine" PV type, is this correct for the -75?)

PM me how we can proceed, ok?

wbr

Juergen


jcsnook

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 08:13:30 PM »
PM sent Juergen.  Not sure if the -75 boxes and -9A boxes are similar in PV controlling?
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Neal

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 12:32:54 AM »
My cylinders are the same as the tz stlye guillotine type . I think the more info that he has available can paint a better picture for us to see what was going on with the different curves .

When i got my cdi , it had avgas written on it so i assume it is a avgas specific cdi .
If i can get a Zeel unit that has sugo curves in it , it will save me a lot of time . I can fine tune it on the dyno later .
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Wullie3XV9

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 01:43:23 AM »
Even if you copied a sugo cdi and bolted it to a sugo kitted bike it wouldn't be the same. it would be better, because your spark is better.
And if you took a sugo kitted bike with a sugo copied zeel/igni cdi to a Dyno you would end up changing it.
What's the issue with most believing in a programmable cdi giving you the facility to optimise your state of tune, you need a few Dyno runs, tis all.
All zeel and igni need to do is make them more plug and play, then there wouldn't be this big issue.

I agree with the highlighted quote from Paul.  It's the one thing that puts me off buying either of the prog. CDI's available.
If they would both fit electrical connectors that were compatable with the stock loom connectors I'd buy one!
That way if it decided to start misbehaving for whatever reason I could just plug my stock CDI straight back in until the prog. one was repaired or replaced.  It's not too much to ask for is it?  :o  :P
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eyrey1

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 02:50:39 AM »
wullie the ignitech does have a loom kit you just plug it in ive got one !
i have moved my cdi to under the rear seat in the box its held down with industrial velcro
i can swap them over in 5 seconds !
here is a pic
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 02:54:40 AM by eyrey1 »