Author Topic: SUGO CDI for Borut...  (Read 37565 times)

Paul

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 06:18:17 AM »
My loom kit was completely wrong and the smaller of the 2 was epoxied together. I had to cut...
Wullie, the problem is these cdi's are universal, designed to work on hundreds of bikes. It'll list a few in the information section but those are the ones they've got going on em. Possibilities are endless, those are the brave lads who make em fit an unlisted bike and you never hear about those ones.
I've said it before, there is plenty help on here, it's a couple hours of intimacy with your bike and a wiring diagram and you're ready to go.
Then you have the power to get in the unknown areas of what you've always accepted as a constant
And only been able to adjust with the flywheel advance, and its the PV operation that really transforms your bike. Like eeknows said years ago, it is the cheapest HP you can buy. I lifted my 3xv by 12 HP across the mid range in 3 runs on the Dyno, I did it myself, Neal was there, and it was easy.
Now Ed had an interesting trick I saw at the track, it was these clips that allow you to piggyback a wire or splice it with no visible damage. Very neat.
the twins:-
TZR250 3xv
TZ250 4DP2

Neal

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2013, 08:30:11 AM »
I saw it with my own eyes !

I picked up 4hp on my nsr on the top end but i need more time to tune the midrange .

My plans have always been to fit either unit to my 3xv and compare the graphs , something that i hope to do around June/July this year . Too many projects (life) going on at the same time  :-\
unofficial lap record holder --- to be corrected one day !

Paul

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2013, 01:52:51 PM »
and what a life it is
i'm off to Mocambique for 9 days
crayfish, LM prawns, peri-peri chicken, calamari, fresh dorado/tuna and 2M beer!
some fishing and snorkeling and good old fashioned 4x4 on the beach. yaahoo
ill miss my bike, cleaning and painting exhausts when i should be packing, 3am start tomorrow!
the twins:-
TZR250 3xv
TZ250 4DP2

Neal

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 01:38:38 AM »
Just an update on this , I am back in civilisation ATM and have some parts to send  :) , hopefully the data is useful to Borut .

Please post up some thoughts on the features required etc proper plug and play .
unofficial lap record holder --- to be corrected one day !

Paul

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 07:14:38 AM »
All borut has to do is buy himself a big box of connectors like IGNITECH have.
No one really wants to chop the wires of a 20 year old future collectors item.
That's why these race cdi's are so desirable.
Maybe he could be a bit more scientific with his manual. Explain curves required for avgas (that took me a few days to figure out without a dyno) unleaded etc. once you have that you'll never change it.
I have learned enough to know now that it is likely you plug in a sugo and your bike could go worse. Your compression ratio, measured from when your exhaust port is "closed", and including head volume ,you might have the right heads but porting is more radical. A 1mm higher ex port robs you of 24.6cm3 of mixture for being compressed. Similarly a lower port adds that extra mixture. That effects wher the plug must fire else it'll blow oil out the pipes.
If you're serious about setting your bike up correctly, forget about sugo cdi's its hit and miss.
Let me tell you what I've done for my TZ.  I drive very far to ride it and can't take a chance on a 20 year old ignition. Nor will I pay 4 times the price of a new IGNITECH to buy a spare 20 year old cdi. I'm making sense?
So I bought a loom connector for $25. I requested every pin to have a wire coming out so I can add shift light or whatever later on. I also bought a cdi off them and I'll take my time to tune it in. Because this way it is plug and play. Same loom connector from them will work on a zeel.
There is 20 years of advancement in electronics in these boxes.
I think you guys miss the mark a little. Poor borut wants to sell these things but is having to please the masses by giving them value in a setting they believe is a good starting point but in reality is still a mile off the mark. If sugo had the tools to program like you do today they would have sold them with different maps for different fuels, tracks, heads, barrels, plugs.
You have to take a small risk to gain boys. Ask any prog cdi owner which cdi is on their bike right now, oem or prog? And if it was easy to swap them over (loom connector) which one would they use?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 07:18:14 AM by Paul »
the twins:-
TZR250 3xv
TZ250 4DP2

epa police

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 08:10:34 AM »
I don't agree with you fully Paul. Sure advances have been made in the last twenty years but the rest of the bikes components are still twenty years old, your port job, pipes etc. There seems to be a trend of 'I have to get a Zeel' or similar system to make the bike sing but in reality the bike is not ever going to get ridden anywhere hard enough to make a difference on the timesheet. I suggest saving the cash that you would spend on an ignition system, dyno and lost track time and spent it on track days learning how to ride the thing properly.
Not directed at you personally Paul just a general observation.     

EEKNOWS

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 08:44:49 AM »
I don't agree with you fully Paul. Sure advances have been made in the last twenty years but the rest of the bikes components are still twenty years old, your port job, pipes etc. There seems to be a trend of 'I have to get a Zeel' or similar system to make the bike sing but in reality the bike is not ever going to get ridden anywhere hard enough to make a difference on the timesheet. I suggest saving the cash that you would spend on an ignition system, dyno and lost track time and spent it on track days learning how to ride the thing properly.
Not directed at you personally Paul just a general observation.   

Bring a bike up Pat and we'll go down to the dyno and I'll show you before and after an ignition.
All borut has to do is buy himself a big box of connectors like IGNITECH have.
No one really wants to chop the wires of a 20 year old future collectors item.

Ignitech is a company , Zeeltronic is 1 bloke. Borut would love to have plug and play looms and funky graphics but that's not what he does. He makes ignitions, not looms or software.
I should show you how to cut and shut a loom so you will hard pressed to see. There is also no need to cut the loom you can run parralel wiring quite easy.

Paul

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 08:51:40 AM »
No problem pat. But what do you say to someone about to pay 400 for a 20 year old cdi?
Knowing the obvious benefits including cost savings of a prog.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 09:07:59 AM by Paul »
the twins:-
TZR250 3xv
TZ250 4DP2

Warwick

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 09:36:01 AM »
Whatever the relative merits of the different options - and I think it's great that the progs are available - I'm not convinced that it necessarily works out more cost effective to go the prog route from what I've seen? And it certainly looks like quite a bit more work to me I have to say?

I'll doubtless have a go with one one day, but I don't expect it to be as simple - or as cheap - as just plugging in the Sugo.

As I see it any potential advantage of a prog unit lies in its flexibility and tuneability, not in the cost or ease of fitment - and especially set-up? As for reliability... Well I've never had, or heard of, a Sugo unit failing. Heard about lots of probs with both the Zeel and Ignitech units though. Many of which may well be operator error of course.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 09:42:52 AM by Warwick »
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Neal

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 09:38:38 AM »
My plan all along has been to get another prog unit and use it on my bike , in a perfect world I would like the unit to plug in without cutting my loom , if I have to get a add on piece from ignitech then no problems .
I will get the bike running with the race kit on it , dyno it , swap over to the prog unit and dyno it straight away , just for experiments to please my curiosity . I will post up the details once it is done.

Ay Paul hush hush on the resale stories , I may need to sell my fools gold unit  ;D
unofficial lap record holder --- to be corrected one day !

Paul

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 10:16:07 AM »
Warwick.
Less than 50% cost is not cost effective? Being able to tune your bike perfectly for it current setup or any changes thereafter doesn't add value?
You think it's a lot of work ordering a loom connector and joining 12 wires?
And as for the rest of your contribution. Sounds like you're trying to delay the enevitable with half convinced  idleness. Maybe smooth out some good points mentioned already?
I'm saying its a good, cheap, performance gaining piece of kit. Your saying the same but its not cheap and it takes time?
My opinion is based on actually owning and using both ignitions.
the twins:-
TZR250 3xv
TZ250 4DP2

Warwick

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 11:28:29 AM »
Well, the last Sugo unit I bought cost 220. The one before that 180...  I know of someone more recently who bagged one for 150... Are you saying that a prog and associated gubbins can be bought and set up for half of that? Dyno time alone is going to cost rather more than that I'd think? Once you add up all the other bits, the fittings and the dyno time, the costs seem to rack up quite significantly from what I've seen?   

As I've mentioned a thousand times, I think the progs are great of course - especially for those that like to experiment. I have no vested interest in either system personally, and as mentioned will probably try a prog myself at some point. But the progs just don't seem to me to be a particularly cost effective, easy or reliable option from what I've seen?

I didn't know that you had a Sugo for the 3XV though, Paul? I must have missed your posts on that? How did it go? Your 3XV seemed a bit lazy with the prog fitted from the dyno you posted a while back? Did you compare it back to back with the Sugo?         

Best of luck with it all as always, but the real irony here lies in the topic of this thread doesn't it? ;D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:31:38 PM by Warwick »
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epa police

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2013, 12:21:05 PM »
The point I was making Lozza was that you can have all the HP you want but its not worth a crap if you can't ride. I personally would send the cash on some tyres and spend the time tuning my suspension instead of programming the map to open the PVs 10rpm earlier because suspension is where the real time is to be found.
I'm pretty sure it won't be a case of just fitting an ignition and going on the dyno and hey presto an extra 10hp but I am pretty sure some guys would believe a statement like that and buy a system.

maccas

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2013, 12:40:57 PM »
I'll give my two cents...

No OEM ignition is going to be correct for your specific application unless your specific application is that which the OEM ignition was designed for. An example of this would be that the SUGO ignition is designed to be used in conjunction with the COMPLETE RACE KIT. This doesn't mean that good results can't be obtained from an OEM ignition. People have and do get good results from OEM boxes. A SUGO ignition with appropriate set-up is a known route to decent power with a 3xv. Take Mark Jordan and the KR1S for instance, he has stuck with the stock ignition and made a monster of a motor work around that.

I can see the appeal of using a fixed curve box. Less time needed on the dyno, cheaper set up costs, less variables to change. I've nothing against them at all.

I like the programmable ignitions. They do as Warwick mentions cost alot to set up though as you do have to spend a fair bit of time on the dyno dialling them in. Each time you change a component such as a different design of exhaust, ideally you need to go back to the dyno to get the PV and ignition curves dialled in again. Otherwise you aren't getting the full potential of the programmable.

Personally I like seeing what happens on the dyno and what does what, I find it interesting. A programmable is right up my street and that's why I stuck at it with the 3xv when the wiring issue hadn't been sorted.

If you have the time/money/inclination to go to the dyno everytime you make a major set-up change then a programmable is for you.

If not, stick with an OEM box.

That's my simplified view anyway  O0

Dan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:42:40 PM by maccas »

4l04ever

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Re: SUGO CDI for Borut...
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2013, 12:45:13 PM »
I'm pretty sure it won't be a case of just fitting an ignition and going on the dyno and hey presto an extra 10hp but I am pretty sure some guys would believe a statement like that and buy a system.

I did the above and got 5 more hp everywhere from 6000rpm up on my RD350LC, On my 3XV only gained 3 hp at the top, but gained 8 in some parts of the rev range...
3XV-1 Trackbike
TSA Pipes
30.5mm Carbs
Modified Airboxes
Zeeltronic Ignition System

3XV-1 Trackbike #2 project......