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daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Feb. 20 2007,20:37 http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/tz250/message/601 Back to top

Mr stinkwheels Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: May 2006 Posted: Feb. 21 2007,03:24 He is claiming 40 hp increasing to 76 hp this is obviously crank readings then, when you take off the 12-15% for loss through to rear wheel this equates to about 61 hp at the rear so probably about right. Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 21 2007,08:30 hang on (for YEC read Sugo) "I HAVE JUST COMPLETED TZR ENGINE WORK. WE PORTED STOCK TZR CYLINDERS TO SPEC'S FROM JAPAN (YAMAHA-YEC), WE OPENED UP REED BLOCKS, MADE HEADS SAME AS STOCK 95 TZ, AND I MADE A SET OF PIPES SAME AS 97 YEC KIT SPEC. GAVE A LITTLE MORE IGN, THEN DYNO IT. STOCK FROM JAPAN (40HP-SPEC BIKE)<br>NOW DYNO AT 76HP AT 12,500. SO WHO EVER SAID TZR DON'T RUN SO GOOD, WELL, THIS ONE DOES." My stock bike gave around 37HP max at the rear wheel. If this is a dyno reading its a fair bet it is reading that 76HP at the rear wheel too. This is in line from what my tuner reckons is a reasonable figure for this bike with modified -00 cylinders. The std heads have been welded up & reprofiled to TZ spec, rather than the original dome shape, which is why the compression was so low with the TZ pistons. If i was using domed original pistons I would probably be ok, so we had to take more off the head to compensate. I'll know how we went on the dyno on Saturday. I still believe the Bossons may be holding it back though. we have new flanges made up from a pair of OEM exhaust flanges - a much better system than the bosson stubs. -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 21 2007,13:04 It looks as though this fella has taken the motor to more or less full Jap' race 3XV spec, which is effectively TZ spec, so no reason why you shouldn't be able to see high 70's or more at the wheel (most dyno's only really deal in rear wheel figures in my experience). It's kind of academic though unless it's a pure race/ttrack bike you're building I'd think (a good tartget to aim for there, Jools, Erin etc. ), as you would then be talking full TZ maintenance schedules etc., which are probably a bit onerous for most road users. For the road, I reckon the relatively simple, SP porting (or SP topend) good pipes and sugo CDI combo is the (relatively) simple way to 'de-restrict' the 3XV. That was kind of the point of my recent dyno work: to get some definitive data from a relatively stock road bike and to to demonstrate that it is perfectly possible to get good power from an R model 3XV with no sacrifice in everyday ride/useability. My R model 3XV now rides pretty much identically to a stock bike, but instead of the power levelling off at 9.5 the power keeps on building - effectively letting us have what the Japanese law makers denied us: a full power, but effectively stock 3XV. If you can't get a Sugo CDI, you can still get high 50's at the wheel, just by running SP Spec cylinders and fitting some good pipes with a stock R model -00CDi.  Here's Wayne's (R bottom end, SP top end, 28mm R carbs and a -00 CDI) compared with mine (running SP porting of R cylinders and 28mm carbs with the sugo -80 CDi) both bikes running airboxes/filters etc. and all other 'road' gear. A bit of work on jetting and set up (optimise the squish etc.) and it looks to me as though you could lift Wayn'e  - 00 CDi figures by at least a couple of Bhp too - possibly even crack 60. Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Feb. 21 2007,18:37 i think 60bhp from a 3xv for the road is more than enough for most people! and as you say warwick the combination of sp porting, pipes and sugo cdi is the way to go. this guy must be using tz pistons? as he proviled the heads to 95 tz spec? which are 8.00cc volume. in the sugo manual the sp heads are machined to 9.30cc from 9.65cc. the sugo manual does show porting work too, taking the sp cylinders more to tz spec, also, surely must be running race fuel to get 76bhp?? Back to top

ybk Group: Super Administrators Posts: 214 Joined: Mar. 2006 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,01:52 What ballpark figure would SP barrels, a Sugo CDI but with stock pipes produce? Back to top

AndyG Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: Feb. 2005 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,03:05 Quote (ybk @ Feb. 21 2007,23:52) What ballpark figure would SP barrels, a Sugo CDI but with stock pipes produce? Bugger all! The stock pipes are crap!! You at least want some Martin77 pipes. They are very cost effective and work very well. You are wasting your time else. Even then, from what we experienced on the dyno last week, it seems that the 3XV is ultra critical on setup, unlike the Hondas where we can pretty much mix'n'match pipes on any given setup (as witness before by Martin) and they will always make good power. As an example, the Jackals and the Martin77's made extremely similar power and graphs, but swapping to any other pipe (or CDI) and it was appalling. When we tested different Martin77 pipes on my NSR with the same settings, they made anywhere between 64hp and 67.5hp. The 67.5hp was stupidly peaky, and would've been impossible to ride on the road, but it demonstrated the flexibility of the motor. The TZR just doesn't have that luxuary. Therefor, to reitterate, I would personally say that for around 60hp on your TZR, you want some proven pipes, SP top-end, Sugo/YEC CDI, and at least 1/2 a day on the dyno! You will probably want some porting too, but you may be lucky with the SP top-end. Wayne's lovely Marboro bike was struggling to get to 60hp*, but it could possibly have been dialed in; I think it was the port work on Warwick's that made the difference though, even though it was "SP" spec. Andy. *It doesn't matter when it looks that good though! Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,04:22 i'd like to see the graph of that dyno run though....... -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,11:25 Quote (jools @ Feb. 22 2007,02:22) i'd like to see the graph of that dyno run though....... Which one Jools? One of the 3XV ones? I have them all, so should be able to post up whatever you want. Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,12:12 Lol. You should stick to NSR's Andy, you have a better idea what you're talking about with the 'orrible 'onda . I think you misrepresent the ease with which power can be wrung from that neolithic motor too though. Judging by the diversity of dyno graphs I've seen, it's not as simple as you suggest. A 38Bhp NSR300 anyone  . Not everyone has almost unlimited access to a dyno you know... To answer your question though, YBK, I think you are unlikely to see any major gains with the stock pipes fitted. They are designed specifically to work very well with the restricted motor - a job they do very well indeed. The best pipes I've personally tried (and unlike Andy, who doesn't have the good sense to own a 3XV, I'm talking form direct personal experience here ) are the Jackals and Martin77's pipes. Though others have seen 60+ with the Sugo's (Cyclenut) and the Bossons (Geoff and Jools). Andy Bush has seen 60+ with the Nikons too, though they didn't seem keen to work well with my set up when we very briefly tried them on the dyno the other week. There are of course numerous veriables in set-up so I can't say for certain that they couldn't be got to to work well with a set-up like mine. I'm not sure of the origins of Wayne's pipes, though the cans are 'swift' brand. However, my own personal recommendation would be the Jackals or Martin77's (if you can talk him into making a set). The Sugo's should also be be an excellent pipe I'd think (and Cyclenuts' dyno's suggest this is the case), though I've no personal experience of using them.   For info, my own set-up is currently: A pair of very worn R model -00 cylinders - ported as close to -10 SP spec as possible  'R' Powervalves modified to match the Ex' port changes. a pair of well-past-their-best 'R' model pistons and rings - (SP or TZ would possibly produce more power if you matched the heads to them) Heads skimmed to give a squish of around .8 and cut for the SP O rings (though we slung in the .2ish head gaskets for this first test as we wanted to be safe - cowards .) Stock 28mm R carbs with all stock 91 'R' type internals. Both needles on middle clip but with roughly .1mm spacer underneath each clip to lift 'em a touch (cut from a beer can, burp) - ended up with 250 front/210 rear mains for the best run on the dyno of 63.57 Stock reed cages lightly flowed and the stops opened to give 12mm petal end lift Lightly flowed crankcases. SP crank R gearbox and wet clutch Martin77s own hydroformed pipes (with some tatty old Swarbrick silencers fitted) We got slightly better figures from Martins pipes than the Jackals. The Bossons revved further but we didn't have time to jet exactly for them. They were down across the range in the limited tests we did with them though. If I can make up some better flanges I may try them again further down the development road as they certainly rev - hitting peak at 12k! Autolube system in place - Motul 710 fully synth oil Intake boost bottles in place Airboxes fitted but with very free flowing filters (off of ebay - fella called MBsteve or something keeps listing them). SP upper airbox lid. 2 half inch holes in the rear edge of the lower box Standard R model plumbing, rad' etc. (I'd like to fit an SP rad, but we've had no problems with heat on the road or dyno - it's winter here though and the air temp' on the dyno was only about 10 degrees or so) B10EV plugs. If you'd like a set of R cylinders taking to SP Spec, I can very highly recommend Martin77's work. Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

AndyG Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: Feb. 2005 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,15:10 That's OK Warwick... I understand you feel the need to dive to the defence of the rather poor TZR motor! What I was trying to say, and I will stand by MY personal thoughts (but no means ultimate conclusions, as it was just one day) is that the 3XV motor simply is not that flexible. Yes, we have a myriad of graphs for the NSR (the 300 is NOT based on 250 barrels, and I have long been an anti-300 campaigner!), but the NSR graphs however span a lot of bikes - I mean, how many do you have for your 3XV after just one day? And that wasn't even at a frantic pace! Remember StephenRC45 owns 2 NSR's that have lived in various guises, and that he sits on a dyno all day, so there is bound to be a plethora of graphs just for his bikes alone! I bet there at least a dozen other NSR's that have been run on the dyno too - if each only produced only 5 graphs, that's 60 for a start, plus all Stephen's runs! The post wasn't an NSR is better than 3XV post, although it quite clearly is! But analyzing the results from the day suggests that if you think you can get good power from stock pipes, then I'll eat my own toe nail clippings!!! The truth of the matter is, your 3XV ran (and only ran) with one particular setup. Swapping to Martin77's from Jackals (direct copies) and there was little or no difference, but NOTHING else worked on that setup. My NSR was setup on the Ethos pipes to give a tad over 65hp, then we tried various Martin77's on it. One set he told us wouldn't work, and they didn't, but the others (without any changes whatsoever) made between 64hp and 67.5hp. You were at the dyno when we restricted an MC21 to stock ( bang on Honda's claimed 45hp when we ran it up), then soldered 1 wire up and drilled 2 holes in the airbox and got 60hp. Yes, I took the pi$$ all day, but remember you would've left satisfied with just breaking 60hp if I hadn't persuaded you there was more in the jetting! If I hadn't wanted you to get the performance, then I would've kept me gob shut! Andy. Back to top

AndyG Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: Feb. 2005 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,15:26 Quote (Warwickb @ Feb. 22 2007,10:12) Lol. You should stick to NSR's Andy, you have a better idea what you're talking about with the 'orrible 'onda . I think you misrepresent the ease with which power can be wrung from that neolithic motor too though. Judging by the diversity of dyno graphs I've seen, it's not as simple as you suggest.... I forgot to add; it IS as simple as we suggest too! The MC16 and MC28 motors aside, for reasons most Yamaha owners will not be interested in, the recipe is simple... An R, SE, or SP motor will each make over 60hp: Solder 1 wire to +12V (or in the case of the Mk1 MC18, disconnect 1 bullet connector) Drill 2 x 20~25mm holes in the airbox lid. Possibly rejet a size or two - but not always necessary! Use R cylinders and R heads or SP cylinders with SP heads; i.e. a STOCK motor!! Use ANY CDI. Use ANY carbs. Use ANY airbox. Use ANY exhausts, including stock! Live in denial all you want mate!!   Cheers, Andy. Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,16:02 Not sure your saying anything there that I haven't said myself, Andy - apart from the suggestion that the NSR is better than a 3XV of course .  I certainly don't think that you can get good power from stock 3XV pipes  . The 3XV was designed specifically as a complete package to meet the Jap 45 Bhp limit.  This fact coupled with the lack of info on the 3XV means that 'De-restriction' is bound to be a bit more complex than with the NSR. If I was simply interested in big power, I wouldn't bother with any of the Jap market bikes and just use the Aprilia, which IMHO has a similarly 'slighly agricultural' motor to the NSR, but handles better. Or the R6 even... However, having owned just about all of the main 250 race rep strokers (with the honourable excepetion of the KR1/KR1-S which I have ridden quite a bit) I am of the personal opinion that the 3XV is by far the best overall package for me. This makes the task of getting a bit more top end out of it well worth the effort and expense. It is now pretty obvious to me what the ingredients for a 'de-restricted' 3XV are, and it's not really any more complicated to me than the differences between NSR models and components etc. is to you (which is of course slightly bewildering and seems complicated to me). I'm not sure that swapping a CDI is really more complex than chopping into the loom (more expensive certainly, but not more complicated). As my other post noted, The Nikons didn't work well on the day and with the set-up I was running, and nor did the Bossons work quite so well as the Jackals/Martin77s - though 55Bhp on too rich jetting isn't too bad. But that's not the same thing as saying definitively that they 'don't work' - If we'd have had the holes in the airboxes uncovered for the Jackals or Martin77 pipe runs for example they 'wouldn't have worked' either... The main aim of the day was to gather useful data - hence all the buggering about with the Speedo and stuff.  When we were swapping CDi's etc we weren't always expecting the set-up to work well. It is just as useful to find which combinations don't work as finding those that do, don't you think? There is a real lack useful performance data for the 3XV and I would like where possible to correct some of that imbalance. Checking out suspicions about what combinations do and don't work on the dyno is all part of that quest for knowledge. The fact that we had a 60Bhp set-up on arrival should give an induication that we had a pretty good idea of what worked well together and what didn't before we got there, no? The day NSR's start coming past me in hordes (or indeed ones and two's) at trackdays will be the day I'll reconsider my evaluation of the NSR. For the time being I'll carry on focussing most of my bike energy on the 3XV. I did appreciate the advice on jetting BTW, but going for max HP wasn't really the aim of the day as I've noted, that's why jetting wasn't at the top of the 'to do' list. However, we'll be pushing 65 next time on the rollers (I hope), and optimising set-up will be the at the top of the agenda then     Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,16:07 repeat post -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,16:18 Quote Lol. You should stick to NSR's Andy, you have a better idea what you're talking about with the 'orrible 'onda . I think you misrepresent the ease with which power can be wrung from that neolithic motor too though. Judging by the diversity of dyno graphs I've seen, it's not as simple as you suggest.... I forgot to add; it IS as simple as we suggest too! The MC16 and MC28 motors aside, for reasons most Yamaha owners will not be interested in, the recipe is simple... An R, SE, or SP motor will each make over 60hp: Solder 1 wire to +12V (or in the case of the Mk1 MC18, disconnect 1 bullet connector) Drill 2 x 20~25mm holes in the airbox lid. Possibly rejet a size or two - but not always necessary! Use R cylinders and R heads or SP cylinders with SP heads; i.e. a STOCK motor!! Use ANY CDI. Use ANY carbs. Use ANY airbox. Use ANY exhausts, including stock! Live in denial all you want mate!!   Cheers, Andy. Yeah,yeah, yeah, not forgetting that whatever model it is it'll 1. Vibrate like buggery right through the rev range 2. Scare the living daylights out of you on the brakes with its wobbly 1970's front end and... 3. Almost break your foot every time you change gear with its Massey Ferguson tractor gearbox   4. It'll also drink a litre of fully synth 2t every 300 km's or so! NSRse more like!   Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Schalk Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: Jan. 2007 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,16:57 Lol, i second warwick on that. Sold my MC18 with bossons, modified airbox and had that wire splice done, for my 3XV.  Havent looked back since!! My Ex NSR was fast, i dont deny that.  And yes, it is a nice bike, i liked it.  I can honestly say i have no complaints about it. But the 3XV, i love it, the brakes, the rider seating, the handling, the better mid range, and an overall better ride, not to forget the looks. For me that is. But a compliment to the NSR, my girlfriend loved the vibration. Sorry, i had to say it. O yes, and with the airbox and wire splice done, but with standard pipes, i couldnt keep up with my 3XV (was my brother's then). The pipes made a huge difference. Dont want to step on anyones toes, but this is my experience, both nice bikes, but overall i prefer the TZR   Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,18:31 Quote (Warwickb @ Feb. 22 2007,14:18) Quote The MC16 and MC28 motors aside, for reasons most Yamaha owners will not be interested in, the recipe is simple... So... only the MC18 and 21 models then? Y'see it's not really much different to the 3XV is it? When you have a degree of knowledge about a specific bike, things that would seem confusing, even downright impenetrable to 'outsiders' - the different deck heights of the NSR R & SE and SP model cylinders for example - become just 'common knowledge' and unremarkable to 'insiders' who can't figure out why others find it so confusing. So, take a 3XV SP or SPR, fling on some better pipes and the appropriate Sugo CDi and you've effectivley cracked it. Surely that's not really any more complicated than the NSR de-restriction really, is it? Probably more expensive I'll grant you, but then excellence is worth paying a bit more for   cheers Wb I'm only bothering to respond to this nonsense because I've got a pile of really dull marking to wade through you know -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,21:17 This season will be fun at the PCRA In New Era 2 we've got Sir Al's supposedly hot NSR with loads of special bits,Dez's RGV250 hot special with loads of factory mag bits and my TZR SP hybrid. There might also be a KR1s fronting up so there will be no prisoners. Also the hot 400's (VFR, RVF CBR) to contend with its promising to be a cracker. Its gonna be fun, and I'll be the relative green horn out there in comparison. I Need to lose another 10 kilos compared the vertically impared and impoverished opposition   -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

AndyG Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: Feb. 2005 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,21:47 Quote (Schalk @ Feb. 22 2007,14:57) Lol, i second warwick on that. Sold my MC18 with bossons, modified airbox and had that wire splice done, for my 3XV.  Havent looked back since!! My Ex NSR was fast, i dont deny that.  And yes, it is a nice bike, i liked it.  I can honestly say i have no complaints about it. But the 3XV, i love it, the brakes, the rider seating, the handling, the better mid range, and an overall better ride, not to forget the looks. For me that is. But a compliment to the NSR, my girlfriend loved the vibration. Sorry, i had to say it. O yes, and with the airbox and wire splice done, but with standard pipes, i couldnt keep up with my 3XV (was my brother's then). The pipes made a huge difference. Dont want to step on anyones toes, but this is my experience, both nice bikes, but overall i prefer the TZR   Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?! Surely you're having a laugh now?! Even a stock MC18 wipes the floor with a 3XV in the midrange! If your 18 didn't work, then I'm not trying to insult you, but it wasn't set up correctly. TYGA pipes on an MC18 put about 2hp on the top-end, but wipe out about 8hp from the middle... bringing the mid back down closer to the lesser 250's! The blue trace is a stock MC18, the red trace is the same bike with a soldered wire, and the green trace is the 3XV with ported barrels, skimmed heads, ported cases, modified airbox, race pipes, race CDI, etc. I knew that I couldn't try to constructively add to a thread without someone trying to assassinate me and/or the NSR. I thought long and hard how to air my observations without turning it into a "mine's better than yours" thread, but it doesn't seem to matter how you word anything does it? Warwick, you are living in a dream world! I respect the fact you love your 3XV, as much as I love my NSR's, and I admire your perseverence, but how you can compare the level of work required to make the bikes perform how they BOTH should is totally unrealistic! At the end of the day I can have a stock Honda making 60hp within 10 minutes. You are turning RGV on me now though... insults of crap gearboxes and aggricultural motors are more akin of the rubbish you would expect to hear elsewhere from people stuck in the "official import/full power UK model" bubble! You'll be calling the NSR "gay" next! We certainly slurp the 2T, that's for sure, but how you can call a motor that shares its design with a GP bike that won 5 out of 6 WGP championships in its' life-span aggricultural, amuses me. If we are trading questions, which I prefer to insults, why on earth does the Yamaha nead a balance shaft? Unless it's a flawed design, a 90° V-twin should naturally be in balance. Let's be fair too... you've hardly given your NSR much of a chance have you? Fix the crank and spend 10 minutes delimiting it, then do to that what you've done to the 3XV and tell me which is the better motor! Sure, you will undoubtedly prefer the Yamaha handling, you've been riding it for years and it's what you are used to, but there's nothing wrong with the NSR's brakes or anything particularly wrong with the suspension if it's maintained/set up. Not to say it can't be improved, but it was as good as it needed to be in the late 80's and early 90's! As for the MC16 and MC28, like I say, I didn't deem it necessary to go into it as I don't expect the Yamaha owners here are really interested, but as you seem determined to drag it out of me... MC16FS is rated at 65hp. This is complete with unmodified crankcases and 28mm carbs, but it does require some parts such as the CDI and barrels to make it work well, unlike the later bikes. The MC28 will make 60hp+ with the aid of an HRC ignition card, race pipes, and open carbs. It does require a more complicated wiring modification to allow the HRC card to work though. This renders the speedo, oil warning and side-stand warning lights inoperable. Still on totally standard engine parts though. There is no need to mix and match heads between the R and SP models. Just use R barrels and R heads, or SP barrels and SP heads. Both will produce the goods. There's no black magic involved, and no secrets. Apart from the MC16F3, ALL 10 other NSR models (MC18R2, MC18R4J, MC18R5, MC18R6K, MC21R, MC21SE, MC21SP, MC28R, MC28SE, and MC28SP) can use their original CDI. Let me see... R model - no frills SE model - adjustable suspension and dry clutch SP model - as SE but with Mag wheels. Yeah, that was complicated! Cheers, Andy. Back to top

Yatsushiro Prayin' For Rain... Group: Members Posts: 535 Joined: July 2004 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,22:52 NSR's are gay... -------------- Oddball Racer, #44 Generously assisted by Links Engineering Motive power by Martin77 Back to top

Mark J Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: Dec. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,22:58 We will find out how gay the NSR's are in the F250 this season. Only thing is there are no TZR's expected so can only guess at what they can do. VJ23 is the machine to beat - doesn't matter what the dyno say's the track is the ultimate leveler...... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,23:43 Quote Surely you're having a laugh now?! Even a stock MC18 wipes the floor with a 3XV in the midrange! If your 18 didn't work, then I'm not trying to insult you, but it wasn't set up correctly. TYGA pipes on an MC18 put about 2hp on the top-end, but wipe out about 8hp from the middle... bringing the mid back down closer to the lesser 250's! The blue trace is a stock MC18, the red trace is the same bike with a soldered wire, and the green trace is the 3XV with ported barrels, skimmed heads, ported cases, modified airbox, race pipes, race CDI, etc. Lol. No need to get so wound up about it, Andy. Simply accept that for some the Honda is great, while others prefer 'lesser 250s'. Easy Quote I knew that I couldn't try to constructively add to a thread without someone trying to assassinate me and/or the NSR. I thought long and hard how to air my observations without turning it into a "mine's better than yours" thread, but it doesn't seem to matter how you word anything does it? Not sure how 'constructive' your initial comments were, really, Andy. They sounded pretty ignorant to me - 'the stock pipes are crap!!' So, what data do you have on the stock pipes exactly? We didn't run any at our test, so how come you're such an expert on how they perform? Just one or two lines later your already into how much better the NSR is! That smacks of braggadocio to me, mate. Quote Warwick, you are living in a dream world! I respect the fact you love your 3XV, as much as I love my NSR's, and I admire your perseverence, but how you can compare the level of work required to make the bikes perform how they BOTH should is totally unrealistic! At the end of the day I can have a stock Honda making 60hp within 10 minutes. Whilst it is not entirely relevant or important to me which bike can be de-restricted 'the quickest', Don't you remember seeing me simply swap a CDI and go from a restricted 41 to 60 odd BHP on the dyno last week? There is really nothing special about the porting or anything else on my (very tired)motor - very minor tweaks of the kind that most stroker owners would do while the thing's apart - cleaning up the castings on the cases and reed blocks for example (OK. maybe skimming the heads is a bit more work, but TBH I think stock and undamaged SP heads would work better than my modded but rather battle scarred ones on my motor in any case). The porting is just a copy of the SP (or as close as tooling allowed). I suspect I know why Wayne's didn't make the same power as mine or better, and that is simply because he has his carb settings 'back to front'. Obviously you'd have to swap pipes over too if it was some kind of weird 'race to de-restrict', but I reckon 10 mins or so could have an SP more or less 'there' Quote You are turning RGV on me now though... insults of crap gearboxes and aggricultural motors are more akin of the rubbish you would expect to hear elsewhere from people stuck in the "official import/full power UK model" bubble! You'll be calling the NSR "gay" next! I simply speak as I find, Andy. The motor is agricultural ridden back to back with the 3XV. And the gearbox is horribly clunky on all NSR's. Anyone who's ridden them back to back would confirm that. Quote We certainly slurp the 2T, that's for sure, but how you can call a motor that shares its design with a GP bike that won 5 out of 6 WGP championships in its' life-span aggricultural, amuses me. If we are trading questions, which I prefer to insults, why on earth does the Yamaha nead a balance shaft? Unless it's a flawed design, a 90° V-twin should naturally be in balance. Lol. The balance shaft is a blessing. If the Honda had one, maybe it would be a nicer to ride? And don't you remember John Kocinski? Quote Let's be fair too... you've hardly given your NSR much of a chance have you? Fix the crank and spend 10 minutes delimiting it, then do to that what you've done to the 3XV and tell me which is the better motor! Sure, you will undoubtedly prefer the Yamaha handling, you've been riding it for years and it's what you are used to, but there's nothing wrong with the NSR's brakes or anything particularly wrong with the suspension if it's maintained/set up. Not to say it can't be improved, but it was as good as it needed to be in the late 80's and early 90's! Rather more of a chance than you've given the 3XV I'd think. I bought one! Hopefully I'll have it up and running as well as it can by the summer, but so far I've genuinely not been massively impressed with it (or any other NSR I've ridden) for the reasons I've given. I don't know why this bothers you so much? I'm not mad keen on RGV's either... Blah, blah, blah, I can't be bothered to go on really... The bottom line is that you say Tomato, I say Tomato. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that you prefer the NSR. I don't dislike them myself, I just find them disappointing to ride in direct comparison to the 3XV. Can we still be friends? -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 22 2007,23:44 Quote (Mark J @ Feb. 22 2007,20:58) We will find out how gay the NSR's are in the F250 this season. Only thing is there are no TZR's expected so can only guess at what they can do. VJ23 is the machine to beat - doesn't matter what the dyno say's the track is the ultimate leveler...... Amen. Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,00:56 Quote (Warwickb @ Feb. 22 2007,21:43) Quote Surely you're having a laugh now?! Even a stock MC18 wipes the floor with a 3XV in the midrange! If your 18 didn't work, then I'm not trying to insult you, but it wasn't set up correctly. TYGA pipes on an MC18 put about 2hp on the top-end, but wipe out about 8hp from the middle... bringing the mid back down closer to the lesser 250's! The blue trace is a stock MC18, the red trace is the same bike with a soldered wire, and the green trace is the 3XV with ported barrels, skimmed heads, ported cases, modified airbox, race pipes, race CDI, etc. It'd be worth pointing out that as the NSR peaks about, what, 6-800 or more rpm lower down the rev scale, you'd really have to adjust that graph by moving the 3XV trace the same amount to the left on the graph to get a true comparison of rev for rev power output. That would of course change things through the midrange somewhat I'd think. You are also dramatically overestimating the amount of work done on my 3XV motor. My 'modifiied airbox' for example is no more modified than putting holes in the NSR one as you describe to get full power (let alone anything like as fancy as making a replica of an HRC box) Sorry Andy, but you are not on NSR-World now. We don't unquestioningly bow at the alter of HRC over here, mate . The Honda is OK, but would I swap even my roughest 3XV for one? Er, no... Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Stephenrc45 Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,01:26 Warwick, those graphs are revs for revs, at 8k the NSR really does I'm afraid make almost 7hp more than your 3XV and the NSR is stock apart from a wire snip. You cant say you need to shift graphs up and down. Its already RPM vs RPM and the 3XV looses everywhere apart from the last 600rpm. If you want an NSR that peaks at the same rpm's as the 3XV then you will have to make do with my '21. Nice little thing   Thats over 60hp for over 2,000 rpm. Back to top

ybk Group: Super Administrators Posts: 214 Joined: Mar. 2006 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,02:15 It's odd that there's little love for the NSR round here - I've always found it to be the closest to the 3xv. My friend used to have a sweet MC18 when I had my first 3xv and I've always thought the NSR had nice build quality, little vibration and a nice gearbox as opposed to the 3xv's more clunky one... The 3xv definately had it beat in the looks departent. The NSR I think had a 'cleaner' more simple layout when the fairing came off - it always seemed a bit easier to work on with less plumbing and such.  That all said though my other friend on his damn VJ21 always blew us away! Also if you want vibration try a Aprilia RS250, I think it's because the engine is rubber mounted as opposed to the 3xv and NSR which have the engines as stressed members? (the ladies seem to prefer the looks of the arpilia so it's got that going for it ) Back to top

Matt@TYGA Unregistered Posted: Feb. 23 2007,04:02 Can I come to play? I have raced/track tested RGV250 (VJ21, F3 & VJ22), Aprilia RS250, TZR250 & NSR250. I think I'm allowed to comment on this. Road Bike: NSR250 MC21SE/SP, any day. It must be wire spliced at the very least, but makes for a very comfortable, easy to ride, fast road bike. The TZR250SPR 3XV would follow. It's peakier than the NSR, but it's fast, and that scores in my book. Must have RC Sugo pipes though. RGV & Aprilia follow those, in no particular order. Racer (SP spec, no engine mods, just SP kit): TZR250SPR is miles ahead. A well set TZR will make 5hp more than a well fettled NSR. My SP NSR racer made 69hp, whereas my 3XV made 75hp. No contest. RGV's and RS's in similar spec have made 63~65hp, so out of the running really, but I do have a lot of experience with the Yam and Honda, so I was able to spend a lot of time fiddling. Racer (Full Monty!) Tough call. I would opt for NSR, but it lacks a little in the suspension department compared to a 3XV. F3 suspenders on the Honda put it out in front, but the engine on a fully sorted 3XV is a monster. We had 76hp on the NSR on avgas, with a healthy midrange. Great for twisties, but this was still stomped by our 92/96 mix and match 3XV which pumped out 79hp. Great for long tracks, but the slightly less powerful NSR with it's more nimble handling could get the edge through the tight stuff. RGV F3 made good power. Not sure exact figures but would suggest around 70 ponies. The trouble was it's inability to stay together at that power. Shame. Handling was no where near NSR or 3XV in my book. RS250...can't comment. All above figures were measured at rear wheel. So what would I have?: NSR250 MC21SE/SP NSR250 MC18 TZR250SPR 3XV NSR250 MC28SE/SP RGV250 VJ22 SP Aprilia RS250 All other variants of the above fall too far down the list so I wouldn't bother. I haven't added the RGV250 VJ23 'cos I've never ridden one. Only ever seen the factory ones in Japan, and the one that Chris Vermulen rode in the Asia Championship that broke down every race! Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,12:05 Thanks Matt can we all put our toys back in the box now please !! Oh, before I put the salt away, Photo evidence: my TZR out accelerating an NSR to the finish line Wakefield Park 2006 - at the start of this straight I was a good 25m behind -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,12:14 Quote (Stephenrc45 @ Feb. 22 2007,23:26) Warwick, those graphs are revs for revs, at 8k the NSR really does I'm afraid make almost 7hp more than your 3XV and the NSR is stock apart from a wire snip. You cant say you need to shift graphs up and down. Its already RPM vs RPM and the 3XV looses everywhere apart from the last 600rpm. If you want an NSR that peaks at the same rpm's as the 3XV then you will have to make do with my '21. Nice little thing   Thats over 60hp for over 2,000 rpm. Lol. I suspect you know that I really meant revs relatve to redline, stephen. Otherwise it's like comparing a Ducati Monster with a GSXR. The Monster may, of course, be making much more power at, say 6k, but you know which one you would want to be riding... Gosh, what a whopper! What is it with you boys and your Honda graphs in a post that is specifically about TZR power in any case?  And your F3 MC21 is hardly comparable with the everyday road motors we have been discussing here, is it? Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,12:23 Quote (ybk @ Feb. 23 2007,00:15) It's odd that there's little love for the NSR round here - I've always found it to be the closest to the 3xv. My friend used to have a sweet MC18 when I had my first 3xv and I've always thought the NSR had nice build quality, little vibration and a nice gearbox as opposed to the 3xv's more clunky one... The 3xv definately had it beat in the looks departent. The NSR I think had a 'cleaner' more simple layout when the fairing came off - it always seemed a bit easier to work on with less plumbing and such.  That all said though my other friend on his damn VJ21 always blew us away! Also if you want vibration try a Aprilia RS250, I think it's because the engine is rubber mounted as opposed to the 3xv and NSR which have the engines as stressed members? (the ladies seem to prefer the looks of the arpilia so it's got that going for it ) I personally don't have a problem with NSR's. I have one myself  afterall. As I said though, I just personally prefer the 3XV in every department. I have simply been responding to Andy's desperate pleadings that the NSR is the better bike. I'm happy for those who prefer the NSR to fill their boots. I just don't share that opinion. And to be honest I find it a little hard to resist contesting Andy's views of the 3XV when they are based on such limited personal experience of the bike. Offering comments on the performance of the stock pipes is the equavalent to me offering an appraisal of Ethos pipes for the NSR: ludicrous because I have no personal experience of them. Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

ybk Group: Super Administrators Posts: 214 Joined: Mar. 2006 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,12:43 Quote (Warwickb @ Feb. 23 2007,10:23) ..As I said though, I just personally prefer the 3XV in every department... Cheers Wb ..that and 3XV sounds cooler than all the other manufacturer codes   Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,12:47 Thanks for the insight, Matt. Nicely explained, rationally argued and supported by direct personal experience. I'd be interested in knowing more about the set-up of your SPR. I'm assuming full Sugo kit, but as you'll know these are not easily available anymore. DFR do a similar full kit (including the carb internals etc), but I have no experience of it. Do you know anything about the DFR stuff ie: is the CDI a pretty straight copy of the Sugo one? How about the Dogfight pipes - same spec as Sugo? My own aim is not to make a full-on racer, but I will shortly be putting together a 92 SP motor with the 36mm carbs etc. This is not quite the same as the later SPR model, which wore the 32mm carbs. Did you run the 32s or the 36s? Obviously my bike will have the Sugo CDi and some decent pipes, but any pointers you can offer on other aspects of set-up would be very warmly welcomed. And why doesn't Tyga offer any 3XV bits anyway? There's got to be a pretty big market out there really. The stuff you guys do for the Honda is excellent, why is the little Yam left out in the cold? Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

PowerSlider Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: Nov. 2006 Posted: Feb. 23 2007,14:27 I fully support that! Go on TYGA, bring on some cool stuff for the Yam´s! By the way... Regarding the NSR vs 3XV, the answer is... 3MA!! -Best looking bike award. -Best soundtrack award. Really guys, i would even take an RGV (powervalve'bits'dropping'into'cylinder) anyday, against ANY "diesel" "200bhp/300km/h" modern bike! Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 24 2007,09:20 Its all gone a bit quiet now -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Mark J Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: Dec. 2003 Posted: Feb. 24 2007,10:00 best thread for ages   Back to top

PowerSlider Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: Nov. 2006 Posted: Feb. 25 2007,16:20 That´s probably because everybody agrees that 3MA´s rule!! Back to top

gbowie Two stroke spirit Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: May 2006 Posted: Feb. 25 2007,19:18 Why is this world so big?? We should all bring our bikes and meet at the race track in Metropolis next Sunday and blow all this theoretical Dyno stuff to pieces. -------------- You'll live a lot longer if you give up the things that make life worth living ! Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 25 2007,19:37 I'm with you there, Geoff. As Mark notes, the track is where it really matters. I'd love to do some racing myself, but I just can't reliably get the weekends free of work. And there's the costs of course too... I do have a vague plan to at least enter a couple of rounds of something before I'm 40 though - only a couple of seasons left then... better get plotting . -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Matt@TYGA Unregistered Posted: Feb. 26 2007,04:08 Me again! The 3MA eh? Possibly the best sounding two stroke 250 streeter ever produced. Stock pipes sound a bit iffy, but race pipes sound excellent......right up to the point where the bike seizes Got one in bits in the shed right now, but just too busy to put it together. As for the 3XV SPR. We were supported by Yamaha so ran all the RC Sugo stuff. CDI had plug to connect/disconnect to retard/advance ignition, carb kit was pretty comprehensive, pipes very nice. I had two sets, one set 10mm shorter than 'stock'. Did a fair bit of cleaning up in the cases. The porting was close to stock. The SPR cylinders are way better than anything before them 'cos of the fancy exhaust valves. The SPR carbs are bored twice giving them an oval type shape (32mm at widest point). This gives good mid but with extra top. Head volumes set for avgas. Jetting was critical with just a jet size of two suddenly netting you 500 extra rpm and a bunch more power. If it wouldn't rev to 13,500 then soomething wasn't right. As for DFR. I don't know if they're a copy or not, but the DFR Team was the only bike in the Jap 250 championship that could stay with the RC Sugo bike. Rumour had it that DFR pipes were actually better, but I cannot confirm that. Hmm, so maybe we should be making stuff for TZRs? I've actually got a set of RC sugo pipes somewhere. I'll see if I can dig them out. Trouble is that just the pipes aren't really enough. It's similar to the NSR F3 kit in that it all kinda gels together. Back to top

rvt2002 Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 26 2007,06:08 Yeah go for the pipe matt  Atleast we got more choices other JL -------------- Niño Back to top

rvt2002 Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Feb. 26 2007,06:12 Also if you can make some cool bodywork like the nsr250. -------------- Niño Back to top

chinoy Group: Members Posts: 603 Joined: Aug. 2006 Posted: Feb. 26 2007,07:39 wb here is something that would make my day. Factory recommended plugs vs Projected nose plugs. Have you or can you do a back to back on the Dyno with this. If your already on Projected nose plugs fine if not. Just have a go. Projected nose vs non projected nose plugs. The results may surprise you. Use the right heat range though. -------------- Changing the world one spark at a time Back to top

AndyG Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: Feb. 2005 Posted: Feb. 27 2007,02:51 Quote (Warwickb @ Feb. 22 2007,21:43) Can we still be friends? No! I told my Mum, and she said she's going to tell your Dad! I thought you were coming to Steve's wedding this weekend... then we could've had a fight, cos a wedding's not a wedding without a good punch-up!   Andy. Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Feb. 27 2007,12:35 Lol. Yeah, but my dad's 3XV has got more top end than your mum's NSR. Hope it was a good do. I couldn't make it, sadly - too busy trying to find some midrange   Please pass on my congratulations to the impetuous fool. Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Mar. 02 2007,00:22 Quote (Guest @ Feb. 26 2007,02:08) Me again! The 3MA eh? Possibly the best sounding two stroke 250 streeter ever produced. Stock pipes sound a bit iffy, but race pipes sound excellent......right up to the point where the bike seizes Got one in bits in the shed right now, but just too busy to put it together. As for the 3XV SPR. We were supported by Yamaha so ran all the RC Sugo stuff. CDI had plug to connect/disconnect to retard/advance ignition, carb kit was pretty comprehensive, pipes very nice. I had two sets, one set 10mm shorter than 'stock'. Did a fair bit of cleaning up in the cases. The porting was close to stock. The SPR cylinders are way better than anything before them 'cos of the fancy exhaust valves. The SPR carbs are bored twice giving them an oval type shape (32mm at widest point). This gives good mid but with extra top. Head volumes set for avgas. Jetting was critical with just a jet size of two suddenly netting you 500 extra rpm and a bunch more power. If it wouldn't rev to 13,500 then soomething wasn't right. As for DFR. I don't know if they're a copy or not, but the DFR Team was the only bike in the Jap 250 championship that could stay with the RC Sugo bike. Rumour had it that DFR pipes were actually better, but I cannot confirm that. Hmm, so maybe we should be making stuff for TZRs? I've actually got a set of RC sugo pipes somewhere. I'll see if I can dig them out. Trouble is that just the pipes aren't really enough. It's similar to the NSR F3 kit in that it all kinda gels together. Thanks Matt. Interesting stuff. Rebuild the 3MA, perform the 'New Zealand mods' - I have details I can send if you don't have them? and it should be fine. And they do sound great. The on-board soundtrack is the favourite of any bike I've ridden - must be the position of the pipes I reckon. Hopefully be doing some work on mine with the fantastic Martin77 over the spring/summer... Regarding the 3XV, though, It seems pretty clear that for the SP and SPR good power (into the 60s) can be had simply by fitting up good pipes and the appropriate Sugo (maybe even DFR) CDI. Unfortunately when I've mailed DFR they never seem to get back The bike I'm working on at the moment is just an R model motor with the stock barrels ported to SP spec and mated with a Sugo CDi and some good pipes. In view of this It seems to me that pretty good power is attainable for R owners too with a bit of work on the cylinders to take them to SP spec, better pipes and unrestricted ignition. I have none of the fancy Sugo carb stuff and am running the bone stock R model 28mm carbs - dyno's in the various recent dyno posts.   I'm pretty sure It would be worth your while offering some decent kit for the TZR imports - body parts and performance stuff. There are a surprising number of them about really: Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

brentz250 Unregistered Posted: Mar. 11 2007,22:54 Hi I am new to this forum but used to be on the old yahoo forum about 3 years ago. Have just caught up with this post and was hoping you might be able to update me Who/what are the martyn 77 pipes, anybody got contact details I have a 3xv sp running tz pipes, heads, barrels and ignition that did 69.8 running on pump petrol, am just getting some hoses made up for the different barrels. I have also got a fairly well sorted mc 21se doing 62 brake apparently, really like it but must say the gearbox does feel alot stiffer than my 3xv. Have also got a 3ma that has nipped up, have heard about the new zealand mod and would love a copy if some one could send one to me. Thanks Bren Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Mar. 11 2007,23:25 Hi Bren Sounds good. I also have an SP with TZ top end etc. It's very quick but as you'll know not as flexible as the road going 3XV set up - I'm hoping to get a flexible and reliable 65 out of my R with SP porting and sugo ignition etc once it's properly sorted. Martin77 posts on here occasionally. He made the pipes I'm currently using and getting which are a slight development of the SP tadao Jackal design. He's not keen on making pipes really though as they are so labour intensive. No harm in PMing him, but he might not be up for it. I have a copy of the NZ mods I can mail if you PM me with an email add - alternatively you should be able to find them on the interweb. Don't have the add' to hand though. If you've been away for a bit it might be worth having a good browse through the recent posts - and registering. Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

brentz250 Unregistered Posted: Mar. 11 2007,23:47 Quote (Warwickb @ Mar. 11 2007,21:25) Hi Bren Sounds good. I also have an SP with TZ top end etc. It's very quick but as you'll know not as flexible as the road going 3XV set up - I'm hoping to get a flexible and reliable 65 out of my R with SP porting and sugo ignition etc once it's properly sorted. Martin77 posts on here occasionally. He made the pipes I'm currently using and getting which are a slight development of the SP tadao Jackal design. He's not keen on making pipes really though as they are so labour intensive. No harm in PMing him, but he might not be up for it. I have a copy of the NZ mods I can mail if you PM me with an email add - alternatively you should be able to find them on the interweb. Don't have the add' to hand though. If you've been away for a bit it might be worth having a good browse through the recent posts - and registering. Cheers Wb Warick Thanks for the update. I have just registered and logged in and it says i cant post, probably me. Hopefully i will have my sp done soon and will be able to comment.  sounds as though you know what you are doing with them, may tap you up for some info if you dont mind. Does Martyn live in Cheshire? if so i think i may know him. I will have a bit of a catch up on the topics, is frisco/fresco still around, he was from Holland or somewhere. Do you know anyone who does some fancy dan bodywork for them. Thanks Bren If you could send me the nz stuff to brendan@findyouroldmotor.com that would be great Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Mar. 12 2007,11:00 Nah, they are all gunzles from the south west, devon dumplings !! -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Mar. 12 2007,11:20 Lol. I'm from Yorkshire originally, Jools. I guess that's why I was so keen to use that old piston of yours rtather than shelling out for a new one. Martin is certainly a darkest Devon fella though - webbed fingers and everything! Cheers Wb -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

martin77 martin77 Group: Members Posts: 453 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Mar. 12 2007,11:51 OY!! I heard that webbed fingers indeed..... Like wb says, I'm not too keen at the moment to make more pipes, partly time issues, and partly due to lack of manifold parts. In the future I may organise myself a bit more and make a few sets though. Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Mar. 12 2007,22:21 One offs are difficult. Like you say Martin better off doing 6 pairs at the same time and making it worthwhile and consistent. I'm sure wazza will volunteer to help out being a surrogate janner and all reet boy ! -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

martin77 martin77 Group: Members Posts: 453 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Mar. 12 2007,23:39 Actually I prefer one offs....any more and it gets tedious.... I think you mean Wazza's a rent boy don't you? Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Mar. 13 2007,00:17 But my postcode is well out of your league, sunshine! -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

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