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jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 14 2008,21:43 Understanding the structure of Yamaha Part Numbers Excerpts from the Foreword to the Yamaha parts catalog for the 1981 XJ 750 RH Seca (5G2) 1. How to read the Yamaha Part Number A Factory OEM parts are divided into two general categories: General Parts and Interchangeable Parts. B General Parts – Refers to parts manufactured for one or more specific Yamaha models (i.e.: pistons, crankcases, fuel tanks etc.). This twelve-digit part number structure is as follows: 000-00000-00-00. Due to the amount of new parts being added to Yamaha’s system, and the lack of available numerals for the assigning of new part numbers, it has become necessary to use an alphanumerical system in the numbering of new parts. An «X» within the part number structure of the General Parts group indicates a position in which a letter may be used in place of a number. For example: XX0-X000X-X0-X0. The group breakdown of the general part number structure is: 1. Model Code Number Data: XX0-X000X-X0-X0 The first three digits within the general part number structure are model designation numbers. Within this three-digit group, two numbers may be replaced with letters. The major portion of letter substitution will occur with the second position of this three-digit group (i.e.: 0X0-00000-00-00). This letter has no other significance other than model identification. The model identification indicates the original model in which the part was used, i.e.: 1A0-00000-00-00 Identifies RD 400 model 2A0-00000-00-00 Identifies XS 400 D model 3A0-00000-00-00 Identifies GS 340 model 2. Basic part number data: XX0-X000X-X0-X0 The second group of five digits is the actual parts group identification number (i.e. 11631 - piston; 11311 - cylinder etc.). A «W» substituted in the first position of this five-digit group (000-W0000-00-00) indicates a factory assembled kit which differs in content from the original assembly used in production (i.e. 2M0-W0046-00-00 – Rear Break Pad Ass’y). The first three digits of this five-digit group (000-XXX00-00-00)indicates the general sections and areas of the models. The fourth and fifth digits of this group (000-000XX-00-00) indicates the specific part within these general sections and areas. In the case of number overflow, a letter will be substituted in the fifth digit position of this five-digit group (i.e. 1T4-2814A-00- 00 – Wire Tool). 3. Design Code Number Data: XX0-X000X-X0-X0 The ninth and tenth digits of the part number indicates differences, corrections or modifications to the original part number. The ninth digit position (000-00000-X0-00) may be substituted with a letter. This position indicates variations thet may exist within a specific item, i.e. 1J7-12169-A1-00 – Pad Adjust 1J7-12169-E1-00 – Pad Adjust 1J7-12169-F1-00 – Pad Adjust The tenth digit of the part number (000-00000-0X-00) indicates the number of times the design of the part has been changed. 4. Color or finish Code Data: XX0-X000X-X0-X0 The last two digits of th epart number will indicate the finish or color of the item if applicable. In this latest group, only the eleventh digit may be replaced with a letter (i.e. 1T4- 24785-00-U8 – Seat Moulding) C. Interchangeable parts These part numbers always begin with the number «9» and are divided into three sections. The first two sections contain five digits each, with the remaining two digits in the last section. The following is a breakdown of the interchangeable part numbers: 9 00 00 00000 00 Major classification Type Material/surface finish Shape/size zeros to make 12 digits At this time, a letter may be substituted in two positions on interchangeable part numbers: 1. Type/kind code: 9X000-00000-00 With the large amount of new types and kinds of interchangeable parts, it will be necessary to replace this with a letter in some cases. 2. Shape/size: 90000-000X0-00 In the case of bearings, the last two digits of the second group of five digits indicates the registration (identification) number of that bearing. Because of the large amount of new bearings being developed, the ninth position of the part number (90000-000X0-00) may be replaced with a letter (i.e. 93310-422E6-00 – Bearing, Big End). D. Part number sequence [This only relates to finding parts in the price list and is of no importance today] 2. How to use this parts list A Except for steel balls (ball sizes are indicated in inches) all parts are indicated in millimeters as in the following examples: Hose (rubber or vinyl) Inside diameter - length O-ring Section area - inside diameter Washer, shim, collar Inside diameter - outside diameter Thickness (length) B Parts supplied in the form of sub-assemblies are identified by an indentation of one letter space, and the description is preceded by a dot (.). If 2 main assemblies are listed, each different yet having the same basic description (i.e. left and right sides of the same assembly), one will immediately follow the other. If each of these main assemblies is made up of almost the same components, these component parts will be listed immediately under the second main assembly line and will be indicated as noted above. If the component is the same for both assemblies, the quantity indicated will be the total required. If the component is not the same for both main assemblies, the quantity for each separate item will be listed separately. Examples: Description Q’ty Carburetor ass’y, left 1 Carburetor ass’y, right 1 . Jet, pilot 2 . Nozzle. main 2 ------ .Lever, starter, left 1 .Lever, starter right 1 C Keys to symbols U.R Use size (thickness) and/or number as required U.N. Use as many as you need T Number of teeth in a gear V Voltage for light bulbs S «S» type oil seal or «S» type circlip SD, SO, SW «SD, «SO» or «SW» type oil seal E, R «E» or « R» type circlip F/No. Frame No. (Applicable machine no.) D Basis for determining Right and Left in Relation to Parts Right or left is determinated by the rider facing toward the front of the machine. E Superseded part numbers 1. If part «A» has been superseded by part «B» and bot «A» and «B» are interchangeable, the superseding part number (part «B» will appear in the part number listing with the superseded part number (part «A») appearing in parenthesis immediately following the description. Example: Ref no. Part no. Description Q’ty (Part «B») (Part «A») 8 123-45678-00-00 Cylinder (111-12345-00-00) 1 2. If part «A» is a substitution of part «B», and parts «A» and «B» are both available in stock, part «A» will appear first in the part number listing and part «B» will appear directly under part «A». When the stock is depleted on part «A», the computer will automatically ship part «B». Example: Ref no. Part no. Description Q’ty 8 123-45678-00-00 Cylinder 1 111-12345-00-00 Cylinder (111-12345-00-00) 1 3. If a part is no longer available, the part number will appear in the part number listing in parenthesis and N/A (no longer available) will appear in the remarks column directly to the right of the entry. Example: Ref no. Part no. Description Q’ty 8 (111-12345-00-00) Cylinder 1 N/A 4. A part that has been superseded to a kit may be identified by a 99999-00000 part number appearing in the part number column. The old superseded part number will appear in parenthesis immediately following the description. Listed directly below the 99999 part number will be those parts making up the kit. The description of the parts making up the kit will be preceded by a small black dot (.) and the description will be indented one letter space. Example: Ref no. Part no. Description Q’ty 8 99999-12345-00 Cylinder (111-12345-00-00) 1 234-56789-00-00 . Head, cylinder 1 345-67890-00-00 . Gasket, cylinder 1 -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 14 2008,22:22 V. Useful. Thanks for posting, Jools. So hopefully we can discount the idea that the -12 suffix crank has its woodruff keyway in a diff position on the crank end. And assume only a minor difference between the 3XV-B  (-50) and SPR  (-51) flywheel I'm hoping. Doesn't help get to the bottom of Daz's (and possibly Mr Stinkwheel's) problem directly, but all of this is of course making me wonder if ther'd be any advantage in using an early SP flywheel on my set-up rather than the lightened R one . Lol. It just never ends... I'll try it when I get the opportunity and post up any results. -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 15 2008,01:44 just checked out my flywheels and the std 91r has the mark 52 stamped inside. my sp /spr? flywheel has 50 inside. and my 93 rs flywheel also has the mark 50 inside so with the sp/spr fllywheel carrying the same mark as the rs i would suggest that this mark does not determain the identity of the flywheel also whilst out in the garage at this late hour i checked out the woodruff keys i have. basically there is no difference in them. yes, as i already mentioned in a previous post that i found the 'r' woodruff key tight to go in the sp crank, and also in another sp crank i have but checking them with a digital vernier confirms there is no difference. dimensions are 4mm thick, 12mm long, height 5mm. my bike is now back running the standard loom and is ready for testing the 'r' flywheel to confirm that misfire, to wet today! i dont like cleaning bikes Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:06 ran the bike this afternoon with the std 'r' flywheel, and the bloody thing is making me out to be a liar no misfire now thats really pickled my head i can only now put the misfire down to maybe the std loom, as it has seen better days.  in the past i have found nothing but rusty dust when i have cut into the back of the loom! also tried the sugo 80 cdi again back to back with the 00cdi and dare i say it, i think it works. i think another trip to the dyno is called for, i will also test the 00 cdi whilst at the dyno and see if theres a difference from last time, with the std 'r' flywheel fitted. Back to top

Mr stinkwheels Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: May 2006 Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:39 sounds promising, the proof will be in the testing, bring on the dyno. Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:51 Yep, sounds better. Let us know how you go on road and rig. On my set up the difference between the -00 and -80 box was really quite apparent just through simple road testing. But, as the dyno comparisons show, my set up was weaker in the midrange with the -00 than most others have seen with the stock box, so the difference between the boxes was perhaps more pronounced on mine?   Either way, it all sounds more positive. Good stuff! -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Oct. 16 2008,00:01 Good luck at your next dyno session, Daz. Here's hoping your loom/-80 CDI behaves & she gets into the mid 60s hp. Post up the dyno graphs afterwords, please. -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

rusty Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Oct. 16 2008,00:37 Checked my SPR, LKZ 36 Hope this helps. Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 16 2008,02:57 So much for Yamaha workshop manual accuracy.......! Now we need to know what the number after LKZ represents...... nothing drom a basic google search on denso. -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

martin77 martin77 Group: Members Posts: 453 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 16 2008,19:51 Daz, maybe you could also test the effects of a stepped flywheel key on your next trip to the dyno? I'm sure Warwick could lend you his... (note how I keep offering you Warwick's bits without him knowing ) It'll be interesting to see how it works with the SP porting, pipes and -00 cdi....DO NOT use it with the 9A/80 cdi's though! otherwise it'll surely burn a piston, and that's never a good thing (unless you try it in a retarded fashion of course ) Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Oct. 16 2008,20:57 I'd be very interested in the results of a stepped flywheel woodruff key trial too, good thinking Martin. -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 16 2008,22:38 I don't think I have any keys to hand unfortunately. Gbowie sent me one a few years ago and I made a couple of others (one a bit less and one a bit more offset) but other than one I lent to another 3XV owner a while back (Geoff's original approx 1.2mm offset I think) I've no idea what happened to 'em unfortunately. For what it's worth my own experimentation with them revealed no really obvious improvement on a stock ported set-up and the -00 Cdi. Only seat of the pants tests though. I never had the opportunity to test on a dyno so it would be intersting to do some quick tests with a bit of global advance. My own suspicion is that the main limitation with the -00 box is more powervalve timing than ignition timing though. I Don't know what's possible with dual CDI setups as Ive never gone down this route, but it'd be interesting to try running the ignition from the -00 box and the PV from a sugo box to test this hypothesis if that's possible? -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 17 2008,00:53 cant get on the dyno till next week, he says hes really busy  credit crunch aint affected him then yeah i would be happy to try an advancer key at some point if ya can find one warwick Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Oct. 17 2008,13:10 I'm interested in seeing if the stepped key boosts the midrange at all, & if it allows a few more revs past where the -00 CDI rev. limiter kicks in at about 11,300 rpm actual. Ah !! I've just remembered, Dazs' -00 CDI rev limiter didn't seem to do that on his dynograph print-out, did it ??     Hmmm... could be awkward.     -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 17 2008,21:44 My experience of the stepped key doesn't have any comparison to the stock key. All I can say it would rev out on the clock to around the 11750 mark with no appreciable power boost. From the curves I have seen the stock set up just dies at about 10500, so it really provides an over rev more than anything else. I don't believe the timing of the power valve has any affect on the overall max power - just the curve. The later in the rev range that it opens would show a definate surge or power band. The ignition curve at the front of the workshop manual shows it all really, the retardation when 'big brother' kicks in   -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 17 2008,22:20 In my brief back to back testing the advancer keys didn't provide any noticeable extra revs over the stock set-up, Jools - possibly a few less revs if anything. A good stock 3XV should happily rev to 11750 or more (on the tach) in top on stock gearing (and will generally run past 12k in the lower gears). The power levels off, but they certainly keep revving. The only difference I thought I felt was a bit more zip lower in the midrange really. No dyno tests though, so it's impossible to be definitive. And different set-ups cloud these things yet further of course. I certainly don't think that they are the way to any major gains with the stock box, unfortunately. As I mentioned, I don't have one to hand that I can send to Daz in any case. So if you want to see one tested Wullie, you'll have to knock one up yourself and get it over to him  - assuming he'll have the time to test it - or do your own tests later. Easy enough to make one up from a bit of suitable steel - they don't need to be neat or strengthened or anything fancy. So long as it fits well it'd be fine.  I Just wouldn't expect it to make masses of difference, sadly. Anyway: Lets have a sweepstake! I reckon Daz will see somewhere around 62 to 63 on the roller with the LKZ19 flywheel if his mystery misfire is gone and it all works as it should. I reckon it might be possible to see as much as 64 or 65 on the 28s with a bit more careful work on set-up, but I'd be really surprised/impressed if anyone could get more than 65 on the little carbs - and to be honest anything over 60 is impressive enough I reckon. But there's certainly a gauntlet for someone to take up... -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Oct. 18 2008,00:15 Warwick, You've picked a bad week to ask me to knock up a stepped flywheel key, I'm on holiday for the next week !!   I don't start back until the 27th.     Aw well, maybe another time. -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 18 2008,15:46 sweepstake warwick! i dont wanna count my horses before the next dyno run whats the old say'in, you should never count your chickens! you just never know   as warwick mentioned with his bike when he fitted the sugo 80 cdi, he thought it was clearly noticable that the sugo box made more power up the top end of the rev range, so with this in mind, i'm keeping everything crossed, fingers, arms, legs, everything Back to top

martin77 martin77 Group: Members Posts: 453 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 18 2008,19:02 Sounds painful Daz!....   Depends on carburation, but if the -80 box works then I'll go for 61hp on the first run.... What does the closest guess win? Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 18 2008,20:22 Lol. Yeah, sorry Daz, but we armchair pundits need some entertainment around here Prize is just a smug grin of self-satisfaction, Martin. And for clarification, my guess is after a little optimisation of the carb settings. 62 or 63 off the bat would be really excellent. Best of luck with it, Daz. Have you got a date fixed for round 2 yet? It can get a bit expensive, but it really is the best way to get some really useful data and do direct comparisons etc. On the road a couple of Bhp either way is really hard to accurately identify as there are so many other variables, but oin the roller you know straight away if you are going in the right direction or not. I keep trying to figure out how I could justify (er, and afford ) buying my own rig in fact... -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 18 2008,22:24 Are we talking real dyno's here or dynojet ? Don't forget its all relative to the dyno you run on for comparison, same settings etc. Oh and I reckon 64.7 fully sorted, first run on a cool day.................... -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 19 2008,17:40 no definate date or time yet for the next run on the dyno, gotta ring him first thing monday morning, hes really busy but he has promised to fit me in sometime this week. it would be pretty handy to have a dyno of your own, but i'm guessing they aint cheap you might want some lecky in ya shed first though warwick jools, 64.7? steady on! anything over the 60 mark will do, the main aim of the next visit to the dyno is just to get confirmation that the sugo 80 cdi is now playing ball with the std 'r' flywheel fitted. has anyone found out what model the LKZ24 flywheel is from? jools, what do you mean by 'real dyno or dynojet'? Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 19 2008,22:12 63 - 64 is simple enough, in fact it seems to be the limit without playing around with the ignition. I was using TM36 carbs, TZ pipes and a sugo -70, slight primary compression increase mods and a ported cylinder with 0.9 squish. That it why with this motor I am leaving the -20 cylinders stock and playing with the ignition. A guy I know was getting 58 from a tuned CR500 but whatever he tried made no further improvement until he played with the ignition. the last I heard was 72 at the rear wheel...............gotta be worth examining. -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Mark J Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: Dec. 2003 Posted: Oct. 19 2008,22:56 Jools What set up do you have on your TM36 jetting, needles, emulsion tubes etc. Are they original equipment 36 or over the counter (standard) TM36 Cheers MJ Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 19 2008,23:15 I can see what you mean, Jools, but I'm guessing that most 3XV R owners (and those are by far the most common model) really want to maximise what they can get with pretty much the stock motor really though? The work that we (myself and Martin77) did on my 91 R (now the track bike) the other year was really a project designed to demonstrate definitively how to 'derestrict' a road going 3XV R model to good effect, but keeping it as stock as possible. Prior to that there just wasn't any such definitive info (with supporting dyno data etc.) available on this or any other forum. Speculation was all there was. And a lot of that was just plain wrong, unfortunately. What we do now know is this: SP spec porting + good pipes + Sugo Cdi + a bit of fiddling with the mains in the stock R type 28mm carbs  = job done for R owners . A perfectly flexible, compliant and road-useable, but much more powerful 3XV from a stock bike with relatively little major work really. And if you forgo the Sugo ignition you can still pretty easily see high fifties as we've seen, which is a pretty major improvement on a stocker. I'm guessing (again) that for most road riders using TZ bits (not to mention getting hold of them) and then playing around further with ignitions etc. - especially if it involves crank case mods and losing lights etc. - is a bit of a leap into the dark (er, literally ). That approach makes perfect sense if it's track only bike or a racer of course, but for a road bike? I'm not so sure myself?  Low 60s at the wheel with flexibility and sensible service schedules seems to be about ideal to me in terms of everyday useability and a reasonable cost/effort/benefit equation. And anyway what have you got against Dynojets? . I know there's always debate about they way they calculate power, but they are I think the most widely used family of dyno's so most have a reasonable chance of accessing a dynojet rig. This means we have a chance of comparability, and it's certainly pretty useful to be able to use the (freely available) Winpep software to compare different specs and set-ups etc. Which, again, is unlikely to be absolutely exact, but I reckon it gives a good enough comparison if you are using the raw data on the same graph. And I have to say that I've always been surprised how clearly comparable the data we have from different parts of the world actually is. Dyna-pro and others claim to be more accurate of course, but the dyna pro runviewer software isn't freely available - and is in any case bloody horrible to use. Like maximising the efficiency of the stock motor/carbs, using a dynojet for development just seems entirely logical to me .   Er, OK. End of the sermon   -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 19 2008,23:45 Mark, you might be as well trying to stick as close to the sugo race manual set-up as you can even if using off the shelf 36s I'd think? Primary style nozzles/needle jets, not bleeder types - R2 to R4 should be about right with 6FI80-61 needles (or the closest needle size/type that will fit the standard 36s?). The 6FI80s are oem early 4DP needles (4DP1 to 3 I think?) so are easy to get hold of (Trollopes if Allens doesn't have them). I run the 6FI80s with R3 needle jets/nozzles in the TZ carbs I now use on my set-up and it carburates very nicely through the range. 2.5 throttle slides are recommended in the manual but I use 3.5s with no apparent problem. 27.5 pilots seem big enough too on my set-up though the manual suggests 35s. If not running any powerjet you'll probably want to start about 400 on the mains I'd think (I run 310 to 330 mains generally with #50 powerjets). Jools may be able to offer more insight into the standard 36s though as I think he has used those as well as the oem SP 36s. It may well be that the standard 36s use the same type of needles and needle jets as the TZ carbs though? which would certainly make life easier. The standard ones look to have a smaller bell mouth than the oem SP 36s though so this may have some bearing on things too? Good luck with it though. It sounds like a really exciting project -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Oct. 20 2008,14:22 Warwick, I second your comments about a relatively cheap, easy to achieve & reliable power increase for a road 3XV. Do you think the stock crank assembly is up to handling mid 50s hp with stock -00 CDIs fitted ?, i.e. revving to actual 11,300-11,500 rpm. If the stock crank uses the same main, big & small end bearings, con. rods etc as the SP models, they can,t be the problem. Is the SP crank only worth fitting if your after 12,000 plus rpm & 60 plus hp, i.e. much higher rev / power stresses than stock ? What would be a sensible service interval between rebuilds on a stock crank on a road bike ?, is 15,000 miles, (or more !!), possible using top quality synthetic 2-stroke oil ? The £600 odd quid saved buying an SP crank could rebuild a stock crank twice !! (you can tell I'm a Jock)     I know what you'll say, "there's only one way to find out".    I know it's all down to how a bikes ridden, etc. All opinions eagerly awaited.                                Regards, Wullie.     -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 20 2008,15:19 There's only one way to find out, Wullie... . Personally I suspect the R crank would be fine, really. Especially in a road bike maybe making mid to high 50s or so. The SP crank just seems to be a better constructed unit overall, which is why I prefer them myself. The SP unit also has physically bigger webs, so should offer an increase in primary (ie: crankcase) compression over the R type crank, which is probably a bit of a benefit. For what it's worth, my 3MA - making 60+ Hp - runs the original, 19 year old and un rebuilt stock 3MA 'R' type crank and hasn't protested yet in the 6000 miles or so I've done on it (including trackdays). Famous last words there I suspect... I'd certainly think it a good idea to inspect an R crank and make sure it's within service tolerances though if I was planning on using it with a ported top end and some decent pipes. Using good oil should help too of course.   A stock R motor, carbs and electronics (inc CDi) with an SP porting job and some good pipes would probably be my approach if I was just wanting to fairly cheaply perk an 'R' up for the road, and give it the same kind of top end power as an RGV etc. (the nicer handling, and generally better 'feel' overall would still - for me - make it the best choice of all the 250 race reps). It's all too easy to get obsessed with dyno numbers (I know I do from time to time). In the real world what most of us probably want is a bike that works well, but isn't so borderline that it requires constant servicing, or makes you feel like you daren't actually ride the bloomin' thing. For me a road bike is pretty worthless if I can't simply get on it and go whenever I feel like it - either commuting to work, or out for a good long 'leisure' blast.   Track bikes are in many ways a different thing though. What we tend to want from them is maximum power with less concern about service intervals and everday usability, which is kind of what I was rambling on about above - and why I'm currently re-building an SP/TZ motor for the track bike. But even with that one I'll be perfectly happy with a relatively flexible 70 ponies rather than trying to squeeze every last hp out of it. I really don't want to be messing about with EGT counters and weather stations etc. But I'm not racing of course; I just like doing the odd track day, so I can afford a pretty laid back approach to these things. Even in my track bike I just want a motor that's quick enough to make up for some of my own lack of skills and finesse as a rider   -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Oct. 20 2008,16:50 Warwick, As well as a top-end rebuild, I'll be removing & checking the crank over the winter, & will at least put fresh L/H & R/H crank seals in, maybe left mainbearing as well, as they tend to go first if gen. rotors are out of balance. Will check how it feels. IF my stock crank is within tolerances, I was going to make it do another season of riding, (3,000-5,000 miles), then get it rebuilt next winter. As you infer above, there's no point in tuning it to the hilt if your worried about it blowing up every time you ride it !!  Thanks again Warwick.   -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 21 2008,03:48  Sorry if I rattled a few nerves.......... I have no problems with the dynojets - I used one first off until my 'cheaper,' source became available and because its a 2 stroke only setup we can cross reference curves against all the bikes loaded which is handy. I miss the download Winpep add on that was available though. the point was that its important you stick with the same one all the time or the outputs become irrelevant. Going back to the TM36's I used the SP carbs on my old bike (sadly being enjoyed by some other lucky bugger now) but I used stock slides and nozzles with 6EN11 needles. These needles are from the later TMX35 range and come in different numbers (all 6EN11-xx). I found these to be spot on. Being a race bike i used larger pilots - 25 from memory - about 240 main jets and 40 power jets. There is one thing to note - As I use leaded race fuel many of my settings would be dangerous for use with unleaded fuel. bear in mind this: early leaded v twin TZ's use around a 360 main with a 60 power jet. Later unleaded v twin TZ's are closer to 500 mains and 80 power jets. It would appear that due to burn speed of the two types of fuel this is increase is necessary to get these engines to produce the equivalent power safely. I started using leaded about the same time I ran ported cylinders so have no backward data to substantiate this claim more is the pity. That brings me to another theory relating to the carb sizes - Working the ignition to get any further power increase , based on the observations above, seems to need a greater volume of mixture flowing which the stock 28's would struggle with, where the 36's seem to have that capacity. On the road in stock form this is not a problem. But on the track.........One would think that Yamaha would not be using the larger carbs just for the sake of it? -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 21 2008,20:31 No Idea what you're on about regarding 'rattled nerves', Jools , but when you say stock slides and nozzles in the SP carbs, do you mean the Stock SP model TM36 ones or those from off the shelf TM 36s? I was under the impression that the slides and nozzles were quite different between the two? Or am I reading that wrong? Logically big carbs should offer an advantage over the tiddlers of course (which is why I run the TZ TM38s on the track bike now as noted above), but only when everything else is in place to let you take advantage of them. And I have to say that I was really pleasantly surprised by how much you could wring out of the 28s.  My point was simply that for the average road rider the additional hassle and expense of obtaining and fitting suitable bigger carbs (and even more so of playing around with ignitions - other than perhaps just plugging in a sugo box if one is to hand or can be sourced reasonably) is almost certainly a case of drastically diminishing returns. Personally I think that that a Sugo box makes enough difference to make it a worthwhile expense, but as noted above (and as Mr Stinkwheels has noted in another thread)the relatively simple 'porting and pipes job' gives a good, solid incerease over stock for a reasonable outlay of beer money . It'd certainly be my first line of attack when aiming to liberate a road bike in any case. -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 21 2008,23:26 Quote (Warwickb @ Oct. 21 2008,19:31) No Idea what you're on about regarding 'rattled nerves', Jools , but when you say stock slides and nozzles in the SP carbs, do you mean the Stock SP model TM36 ones or those from off the shelf TM 36s? I was under the impression that the slides and nozzles were quite different between the two? Or am I reading that wrong? Subtle humour, don't worry over it   What I meant by stock was OEM SP slides and nozzles, as i type this at work i don't have access to my set up details, but it is as they arrived from Okshon. (I suppose i need to be carefull here as the TM32 triovals I got were set for Sugo SS spec which is why i could have been having problems setting them up) I keep meaning to see what parts off the TZ carbs will fit the SP 36mm carbs as these look more like off the shelf parts than the triovals, and may be readily available. No arguments at all with your methodology for the 'cheap'? power fix for the road. Its just that some have asked for that bit extra and as we all know its exponential - small gains for big pains !! we are all up against the brick wall, I'm just trying to peek over it One thing to remember I guess is that a good 93 TZ Std puts out in the order of 80 - 85 according to the Yamaha data sheets. This is probably crankshaft measured, not rear wheel as we have with the dyno so you would be expecting that to be around 7hp down at the rear wheel. So we can't realistically expect to get any higher than that -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,17:41 managed to get an hour on the dyno today, same set-up as before but with the std 'r' flywheel. blue line on the graph is the std 3xv-00 cdi red line is the sugo 3xv-80 cdi with the 00 cdi it made 57.01bhp and the 80 cdi 50.1bhp which was the best of three runs. its clear to see that still my 80 cdi still aint playing ball Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,18:42 Weird? The -80 Cdi is clearly trying to do it's thing (and is doing it little better than before by the look of things) but something is certainly holding it back at the top. You'd definitely be hitting 60ish if it wasn't falling over just after 10k by the look of the curve.  It would certainly seem to be an ignition or PV issue (ie: CDI unit) though as it is working pretty well with the -00. Maybe I should send my -80 over to you to compare back to back with yours so that at least we can ascertain if it's the box that is at fault or something else? PM me your add' and I'll get it in the post to you if you want to try that? -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

redandblue Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,19:40 Are the air solenoids still connected with the -80 box? -------------- 2MA, 3MA3 black, 3MA3 white, 3XV6, 3XV7, 3XV9, 5KE2 my site: http://www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info my forum: http://forum.tzr-scene.info German TZR Forum Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:24 It might be worth trying blocking off the solenoids, but with the stock R TM28s fitted I left the solenoids all connected up as stock and it worked fine (though I didn't try it with them taken out of the loop so have no comparable data or experience to offer). I suspect though that it would run worse with the solenoids bloked completely but using the stock R carb nozzles/needle jets. Might be worth a quick road test though? Might need leaning off a bit on the needle to try to compensate for the lack of air feed to the nozzles too though?  Dunno really... It's got me a bit stumped I have to say -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:44 i hav'nt tried the bike with the air solinoids blocked off, but when i had the sugo loom on it they were not plugged in (electrically) but all pipes were still connected and it seemed as if that didnt make any difference. i think the only way forward is to try warwicks sugo box and that will tell us were the problem lies, bike or cdi? warwick sos pm sent. Back to top

redandblue Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:48 The air solenoids did not really function with the Sugo Box. I remember a bike from a friend with JL pipes and -80 box and it feels like the trace daz posted. I changed to -00 (and got an -80 box ) and the bikes runs fine. To use -80 box it is better to cut the air solenoids and change needle jet. -------------- 2MA, 3MA3 black, 3MA3 white, 3XV6, 3XV7, 3XV9, 5KE2 my site: http://www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info my forum: http://forum.tzr-scene.info German TZR Forum Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:49 Were all the -80 runs with the solenoids not plugged in, Daz? As sated earlier I always ran my 28s absolutely stock (ie with teh solenoids all plumbed in and connected) but for main jet changes - and those were very slight in the final set-up 260 lower and 220 upper being a good, track-safe set-up on mine. -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:51 Quote (redandblue @ Oct. 22 2008,19:48) The air solenoids did not really function with the Sugo Box. I remember a bike from a friend with JL pipes and -80 box and it feels like the trace daz posted. I changed to -00 (and got an -80 box ) and the bikes runs fine. To use -80 box it is better to cut the air solenoids and change needle jet. Was that on a 91 R model with TM28s, or a different model Alex? -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

redandblue Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:57 Yes, 3XV1. This bike. -------------- 2MA, 3MA3 black, 3MA3 white, 3XV6, 3XV7, 3XV9, 5KE2 my site: http://www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info my forum: http://forum.tzr-scene.info German TZR Forum Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:06 Interesting stuff, Alex. Where did he get the different needle jets for the TM28s anmd do youknow what size? I presume they were a primary (ie: non air bleeder) type? As I said, mine worked fine with the solenoids left all as stock, but it certainly might be worth trying if a different box gives the same results, Daz? On the Sugo set-up for the SP you do remove the air solenoids and use primary type needle-jets instead of the stock bleeder type. It might be feasible to simply solder up the air bleed holes in the stock R ones though? Do you have any spares to experiment with? -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:06 all the dyno runs are with the air solinoids plugged in. i will road test the bike tomorrow with the solinoid plugged out and then blocked off at the carbs too i do have some more carbs but there of the 93rs, different internals?  but i dont think its a fuel'ing issue, even the dyno guy thinks its electrical, timing or something Back to top

redandblue Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:21 The bike was with stock needle jets. I have never tried to look into the 28s carbs because I don't know if it possible to change the needle jets. You are right with my SP setup, the '93 RS gets similar setup too. By the way here is the part number for the Q8 needle jet you need to modify for the SP carbs: 3TC-14141-58. There are also rubber plugs available from Yamaha to close the air bleed holes. -------------- 2MA, 3MA3 black, 3MA3 white, 3XV6, 3XV7, 3XV9, 5KE2 my site: http://www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info my forum: http://forum.tzr-scene.info German TZR Forum Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:22 Quote (redandblue @ Oct. 22 2008,19:57) Yes, 3XV1. This bike. Hey, I think this dyno run is from that bike: Small world! -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:45 is that run with the std cdi? it revs up past 11000rpm, unlike my sugo box that peaks at just over 10000rpm Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:51 Quote (jools @ Oct. 13 2008,20:50) Don't forget the Sugo loom has no provision for the air compensators solenoids so make sure they are gone and the carb stubs blanked off. They may operate at the point your graph goes silly..... -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,22:13 Quote (daz3xv @ Oct. 22 2008,20:45) is that run with the std cdi? it revs up past 11000rpm, unlike my sugo box that peaks at just over 10000rpm -00 Cdi as far as I know. -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2008,22:42 Quote (jools @ Oct. 22 2008,20:51) Quote (jools @ Oct. 13 2008,20:50) Don't forget the Sugo loom has no provision for the air compensators solenoids so make sure they are gone and the carb stubs blanked off. They may operate at the point your graph goes silly..... It'd be intersting to investigate this aspect more, but, as noted, on my 28 carbed set-up it was perfectly happy with it all left absolutely stock (I'd suspected that I would need to fiddle with it as per the sugo manual and was thus pleasantly surprised at how well it all worked). If the solenoid controlled jets are not actually activating at part throttle with the Sugo Cdi then this would still leave the central jet 'open' allowing the amount of air you would get at lower throttle openings. If you cap them off completely I suspect that would make it a bit rich on the stock needle/needle jet? And if you leave the nozzles themselves stock (ie with the air bleed holes) I suspect that may cause additional carbration prob's too? The void around the nozzles filling with fuel rather than air on part throttle perhaps? Which may then be sucked back in richening things up even more when you open the throttle more - then creating a vacuum in the void and thus restarting the cycle as you back off the throttle a bit? All speculation though as I've never tried it... On my set-up I always kind of  presumed that one, or other (or both ) of two solenoids controlled air jets were perhaps simply activating at about 11.5 - when that wiring would be carrying the signal for the powerjets I think?  As it all worked well though I just left it as it was and simply concentrated on getting the mains right. I'd always assumed that this was why my own power curve with the 28s was a bit wobbly at the top.  Power was satisfactory enough though so I just left it alone and used it like that on road and track til I replaced them with the TZ carbs and removed the solenoid stuff entirely. As far as I can tell, Daz's set-up is pretty much identical to the set-up I was running with the 28s, so I'm at a loss to explain it really. And that fact that it works so well with the -00 suggest that there can't be too much awry?  I tend to agree with his dyno bloke's hypothesis and think it's likely to be an ignition thing more than anything else though. No comfort to Daz of course, but this is the most stimulating thread in ages. Daz. Your PM didn't come up (just got the notification but no message?) email me direct instead and I'll get my -80 to you to test against yours. With all of our combined experience we must be able to crack it, surely -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Oct. 31 2008,14:56 back at the dyno again today, this time with warwick's sugo 80 cdi. all 4 runs are with warwicks cdi, blue and red runs are with the posh firm rev limiter plugged in, and the green and black runs with it plugged out. whats interesting is this time it made less power than the previous visit to the dyno? we know warwicks cdi is working correctly on his bike, yet on my bike its not so surely the problem i'm having must something to do with the bike and not my sugo cdi big thanks to warwick for the loaning me his sugo cdi to test, cheers, mate! any suggestions on what the problem might be? are more than wellcome, as i am stumped Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Nov. 01 2008,01:52 Have you checked for good earths, good, clean electrical connections & no chafed/damaged wires on the Sugo CDI ?? I'm no expert on electrics, & I know you said the power valves are moving, but is the P.V. system definately functioning correctly with the Sugo CDI fitted ?? It's weird how it looses power after 10,500 & then picks up a bit afterwards ! This is only happening with the Sugo CDIs fitted, right ??, not when stock -00 cdi is fitted ??                      Suitably baffled, Wullie.   -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Nov. 01 2008,14:02 thanks wullie for your sugestions. making sure that the earths and all the elctrical connectors are good are usually the first thing you would check with any electrical cremlins, good advise, but mine all seem fine. the strange thing is that the bike works so well with the 00 cdi, so this suggests that all is fine with the bike, and would suggest a problem with my sugo cdi. but after testing warwicks sugo cdi, which we know works as it should on his bike, then the finger points back at the bike it looks like a timing issue, but what can it be? i am running the std 'r' type flywheel now which basically means i'm running the same set-up that warwick was using on his bike, the pick-ups are in the std position aswell, so what else can effect the timing Back to top

wullie3XV9 Wullie3XV9 Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: June 2008 Posted: Nov. 01 2008,19:35 Is the speed-limiter circuit board in the speedo still plugged in to the loom, & has the sensor tab been modded ? When I took my bikes clocks apart to do the speed sensor tab mod., the little circuit board, (with the tab sensor), wasn't attached to the left side of the speedo mechanism !! Found it taped up to the loom at the back of the clocks, but still connected to the loom. I had to reattach the sensor circuit board to the speedo mechanism, & then I trimmed the sensor tab to get around the effect of the speed limiter retarding the timing. But, if your bikes happily revving to 11,500 plus with the -00 CDI, this can't be the problem, can it ??    Situations like this make me glad I'm a mechanical engineer & not an electrician. Mechanical problems are easier to solve & repair !!                      Still baffled & confused, Wullie.   -------------- Just when I'm about to make ends meet, someone moves the ends !! Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Nov. 01 2008,23:35 Just a point of note: The sugo CDI uses the same pin out & wiring colours for the powerjets that the 00 CDI uses for the air solenoids, but will not operate all the air solenoids. The powerjets power up to shut off fuel at around 11,000 - allowing for rev counter error this may be where the dip is occuring as its operating one of the air solenoids which are controlled from the 00 CDI according to Throttle position - not revs. Therefore logic might dictate that this is the problem area all other things being equal, so to speak. On the 00 CDI the red/black & green/black wires are for the rear air solenoids the blue/black and yellow/black are for the front air solenoids - the later pair are not used on the Sugo CDI wire so one would assume these solenoids are not operating. On the sugo CDI only the red/black and green/black are used for the powerjet solenoids. This is all from Froos wiring explanation: http://www.froos.com/bikes/cdi/CDI-sugo.htm hope this helps   -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

redandblue Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Nov. 02 2008,02:21 I agree with you, Jools. I don't think it makes sense to put a Sugo CDI on a R/RS model as I mentioned some posts ago. It needs some modification to work... -------------- 2MA, 3MA3 black, 3MA3 white, 3XV6, 3XV7, 3XV9, 5KE2 my site: http://www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info my forum: http://forum.tzr-scene.info German TZR Forum Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Nov. 02 2008,15:22 It might be well worth trying some of the carb stuff suggested, Daz - blocking off the solenoids, or altering the wiring etc., but I doubt that that is the cause of your problems myself as I doubt that the relatively small effect on mixture of the the variable air jets is enough to cause the problems you are having with it working above 10k. It's probably worth investigating of course, but as noted I left mine all compleetly stock and the motor was an absolute peach on road and track. I reckon it's more likely to be an electrical problem myself though as the Sugo boxes most certainly do work well enough (certainly for the road) with stock R carbs in my experience (they won't work at all with R porting though of course - and you need some decent pipes too). Here's mine running the stock R 28s (all the variable air jets etc. absolutely as stock) and a Sugo -80 box plotted with Jools' running SP-ported R motor TM34s (I think that's right? Do you have any more recent run data, Jools?) and Erin's '93 SP with the full Sugo kit, which is certainly the best 3XV power curve I've yet to see: Mine with the 28s is the green trace. The purple one is Jools' and the Red is Erin's   From putting bigger carbs on my own motor more recently, I'd say that the main advantage is that the bigger carbs can breath better at the top end - as illustrated by jools' and Erin's better over-rev. For the road though, or even a very competent track bike where you are not necessarilty aiming for absolutely maximum power at the highest revs (and want to give the crank an easier time etc.) I'd say it's definitley worth running the smaller carbs. It's worth noting for clarity that the stuff on Froos' site is taken from a Japanese site that refers in the main specifically to the '93 SP model. -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

martin77 martin77 Group: Members Posts: 453 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Nov. 02 2008,16:35 I agree with Wb in that the solenoid's actions won't have that big an effect on power. I would try slotting the ignition pick up mounts slightly, and then try it in a retarded or advanced setting to see which way improves it. If it's too far advanced it'll improve with retardation, and if it's too retarded, then advancing it will help. Of course this sort of testing should be done with caution, as we all know what too much advance can do... An offset woodruff key would do the same job of course. It won't solve the problem, but it may help understand where the timing is at the moment. I'd also try holding the PV's wide open to double check that side of things, as the graph does seem to resemble what happens when the PV's don't open fully. Otherwise... I dunno... Back to top

jools Group: Members Posts: 1221 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Nov. 02 2008,21:55 Silly question..............but is your TPS OK ?? Those air solenoids bleed quite a bit of air in actually. Try doing a dyno run on the 00 CDI with them disconnected and see what the difference is................ imagine a hole that size in you intake rubbers ................. Warwick - I'll check on the data, thats very close to the max, no matter what we tried we seemed to have hit the bick wall, what was the date of that run ?? -------------- "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...." oscar Wilde Back to top

Warwickb Group: Members Posts: 1911 Joined: Sep. 2003 Posted: Nov. 02 2008,23:08 That one was from a batch you sent over dated 26/02/07, Jools. Could well be a good idea to check the TPS set-up, Daz (at least make sure the solenoids are clicking when you wind the throttle on with the ignition on but motor unstarted - you should get clicks with the sugo box fitted too, though I can't remember if they happen at teh same point. I would presume not - unless it's a simple solenoid testing facility?). I wonder though if the air bleed intake might affect things differently to simple holes in the intake rubbers as the air coming in is directly mixing with the fuel in the emulsion tube ratehr than after it? As noted before I think it might be even worse with the air intake simply capped off unless you modded the emulsion tubes (by blocking the holes in the tubes so that they worked like primary rather than bleed type jets. The problem then perhaps would be that it would be too rich on the needle I'd think? - And I've no idea where you'd get alternative sizes of the right type of needle jets for the oem 3XV 28s? Certainly worth experimenting with that stuff though perhaps - just to see what happens. As I've said though, I ran the 28s with the TPS and the solenoids etc. all plugged in eaxctly as stock and it wasn't a problem getting good power at all (certainly for the little 28mm carbs), so I just can't see that being the main problem. Really it looks more like an ignition or PV problem to me. I do wonder though if the slightly wavy upper reaches of my curves when running that set-up could have been the effect of the airjets? It wasn't noticeable when riding though, but to be honest I find it hard to ascertain differences of less than about 5bhp or so from my numb old 'arse dyno'. Great to be bouncing these ideas around though -------------- A garage overflowing with old stinkers... Back to top

daz3xv Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: Feb. 2007 Posted: Nov. 03 2008,01:02 loads there for me to ponder over, cheers guys. how do you check to see if the tps works? the air solinoids click as they should but does this mean the tps is working correctly? i thought tps stood for throttle position sensor? so why would the air solinoids be directly linked to the tps, when the air solinoids are controled by the cdi? i'm gonna strew on it for a few days before i decide which way to go, but one option might be to dump the 28mm carbs and fit some 36mmsp carbs i have. i could hook up the sugo loom again and plum in the electronic power jets, this would then take the air solinoids out of the equation. Back to top

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