Hello Guys,
Have lost count off who has a SUGO 70 CDI box for the 3MA's
In my spare time I'm investigating the possibilities off the EPROM
(that is fitted on the 3ma circuit board)
Even joined a Dutch forum that is more into the IC's and circuits then I am :)
Well what do I have found this far (although its not that mutch :-[ )
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ftestic3ma_zps403c84d7.jpg&hash=5f1b898add6f23591eaa120fc668ac04ff6e5ed5)
The IC's are made by Fujitsu and are custom made for the Yamaha tzr's
First number:
-D 071050-0081
This indicates where the IC is build fore.
Second number:
-511 200M
This indicates some info about the processor/speed/program
(still looking for the correct answer)
Third number:
-8907 Z04
This indicates the production date of the IC
In our case 7 month off 1989 (07-1989)
It ill be very difficult to get hold of the program route they have inside.
But still trying to get hold off.
Probably the Intel could be a 8048-core ore a 8051-core
For my search I'm missing some data, Like to know the Sogo IC
What I have is this:
3MA1 00 IC:
-D 071050-0081
3MA1 01 IC
-D 071050-0140
TZ250 3LC IC
-D 071050-0160
3MA1 SUGO
-???????
So who want to peek inside his 3MA SUGO box, to read the numbers on the chip :)
Don't mean you should destroy your box ::), normally if you gently remove the frond you can pull the circuit board out.
Also like to invite the ones that are more into the ic's or have some know how about this.
Share some thoughts with us (or pm me if you have some ideas)
Remember this is just for the hobby.
I know that a free programmable ignition is much easier to get hold off.
Personally just like to go a bid deeper inside this material to explore the possibilities
Cheers guys
Quote from: Louis on October 21, 2013, 12:16:13 PM
Have lost count off who has a SUGO 70 CDI box for the 3MA's
It's me! Let me see if I can open it.
FYI I have a open 3XV-00 box that is open and exposed of the whole board.
Hello,
That would be great if you want to open the sugo box.
Realy like to know which codering the IC has.
If you have the 3xv-00 box open, then yes.
Interesting to see if it is about the same
(like the 3ma3 separated box's)
Here is the 3XV-00
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi675.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv114%2Fyzr500steve%2Fphoto_zps0d7b2130.jpg&hash=22b2e532afac80c3ee045dec9844f59b9f27d315)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi675.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv114%2Fyzr500steve%2Fphoto_zps792c142b.jpg&hash=cc968640a079dc0fc7050d528ac58a2e183685f3)
Ok thanks,
Its also a 42pins IC, think they where used a lot in those days.
''ND'' should be a nippondenso IC (if i'm right)
Is it just the picture, or do the two condensators look differently in seize?
Any luck on the 3MA SUGO CDI :)
Hi Louis
Dont know if this can be at any help
Hi,
How more IC's the better 8)
Is surprised me a bid.
The 3ma-10 cdi is used on the 3ma3 and 5 bikes all coming from the year 1990
My 3ma-10 IC has the bottom number
-9002
I thought build in 1990 second month (02-1990)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/3ma-10-cdi.html (http://www.tzr3ma.com/3ma-10-cdi.html)
But your 3ma-10 IC has the bottom number
-8950
So yours should be build in 1989 the fifth month (05-1989)
Start to doubt if my theory of year is right :-[
Or it could be that the ic's are produced between 89 and 90 so they can pup up in different years
I almost thought I had it, but its the wrong one::)
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049784.pdf (http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049784.pdf)
Will investigate this.
Thanks for sharing
The date stamps could be week number i.e. 8950 = 1989 Week 50
That is the normal method
Hello Guys,
Ok, year/week sounds more logical :)
Great you guys thinking with me.
Started this topic with the intension to gather info so hopefully in the end we have a good idea witch ic's are used.
Just fore the record, this is not my field off expertise. So I may make a few mistakes on the way :-[
Have contact now with somebody from www.bruco.nl
Its a company with does know his ways with IC"S
So hopefully they can push me in the right way.
Any off you more into the circuit boards?
I have a little bit of experience with embedded systems (PIC mostly). I'm not sure how much value I can add but I'm following this thread with interest.
Hello Yanw,
Ok, that's programming/reading IC's if I'm right.
Do you think it will be possible to read out a Ic like this? (if i solder it lose of course)
If this is possible, will the data tell us anything or will that be to complicated??
Don't walk a way from this tread ;D
Quote from: Louis on October 24, 2013, 09:24:14 PM
Ok, that's programming/reading IC's if I'm right.
My experience is with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller) but I have an understanding of embedded systems.
Quote from: Louis on October 24, 2013, 09:24:14 PM
Do you think it will be possible to read out a Ic like this? (if i solder it lose of course)
If this is possible, will the data tell us anything or will that be to complicated??
I'm not sure if we could easily read the IC. The first step is to try and get a datasheet for the IC (or similar IC) and create a logical schematic of the printed circuit board to identify which pins are receiving which input/output. If it is an eeprom then you might be able to get a dump from it but I'm a bit hazy on this.
What I think you are trying to get to is an understanding of the 3 dimensional ignition advance map. This might be easier to get by treating the CDI as a "black box" and feeding it a range of inputs and correlating the outputs. I think this is what Borat (?) does.
Don't worry, I'll keep an eye on this thread.
If we get the data sheet of the IC it should be easy to design a IC replacement board with more modern uc like PIC.
So we can keep the analogical components and get a programmable ignition based on original Yamaha design.
I've checked without luck the data sheet of the UC component in the RZ500 or 1KT YPVS box and in the Tachometer.
Looks like especially made components.
But who knows... so keep looking.
I don't know if you guys know about the YES/SUGO kit ignition for the TZ250 where it has adjustable settings. The small selector box has 6 or 7 settings and it plugs into the CDI box. The looks of the CDI is no different than a stock TZ/3XV except and extra plug on it. The IC has about 6 pins that are not connected and I am wondering if you ground one of the out at time it changes the map settings.
QuoteI'm not sure if we could easily read the IC. The first step is to try and get a datasheet for the IC (or similar IC) and create a logical schematic of the printed circuit board to identify which pins are receiving which input/output. If it is an eeprom then you might be able to get a dump from it but I'm a bit hazy on this.
I'm looking following lines now for a couple off hours. Tying to find some logical in it :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fprint-met-licht.jpg&hash=56e256fbd715ad346ba846919ce8d66e9b7e1d62)
This will probably not be the way, but this kept my busy for a wile.
Most logical I thought can't measure the signals (jet) but the ic will need a mass and a working votage.
So there I'm looking fore, this IC has it's pin nr correct (pin 21 and 42)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2FMB8841H.jpg&hash=bcc88f07ab8a4a56422dd466c66cdf7771878161)
Only the ex and x are not connected. (don't know if this is logical)
http://datasheets.chipdb.org/Fujitsu/MB8840.pdf#search='fujitsu+42pin' (http://datasheets.chipdb.org/Fujitsu/MB8840.pdf#search='fujitsu+42pin')
Now I'm thinking of connecting the cdi and measure on the pin's where voltage is found.
Will this be a logical step?
QuoteWhat I think you are trying to get to is an understanding of the 3 dimensional ignition advance map. This might be easier to get by treating the CDI as a "black box" and feeding it a range of inputs and correlating the outputs. I think this is what Borat (?) does.
That I'm already busy with :)
Some forum members will already know this as I have send them a question about which electro motor I could use best.
Now I have found a electro motor which hopefully will do the job.
And there quit cheap to, have ordered a washing machine engine (second hands of course)
The engines are capable off doing 13000rpm and will have the power to turn the flywheel to.
Sadly the engine did not arrived jet (otherwise I could post a picture)
Will try to make it like a real engine so stator and rotor pickup will be mounted.
I'm watching this thread with interest. We have stripped engines, carbs and suspension, is this the last outpost? Stripping and understanding the ignition box? I wish you clever lads luck. Louis, washing machine, oh my Lordy! Interesting beyond belief.
QuoteStripping and understanding the ignition box
Hopefully in the end we do :)
QuoteLouis, washing machine, oh my Lordy! Interesting beyond belief.
Yes I know it sounds funny ;D, but they are quit strong engines witch are controllable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZolEeqbWz0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZolEeqbWz0)
Just did a quick measurement.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fmeten-aan-IC.jpg&hash=db5dc27083e8ef6a59ac0d8c6e4590aec5c7a6d1)
This is what I found..(Measured ignition switched on)
Like the results off pin21 and pin42
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fic-met-voltage.jpg&hash=b75b7fddacf8670d7b1aa73756e572e3a9d017f6)
The datasheet says that unused pins have to be tied up/down with a resistor. If you can see on the PCB (assuming it is not multi-layered) which pins go to just a resistor and then ground or VSS then you will be able to eliminate them from the equation.
Ehhhhh.
QuoteThe datasheet says that unused pins have to be tied up/down with a resistor
This means that every pin not in use should have a resistor somewhere mounted on the circuitboard????
The problem is, there also going some lines under the IC that I can't follow.
Quote(assuming it is not multi-layered)
Don't know what you mean with multi layered?
The lines on the circuit board are different between top and bottom.
(the pattern on top does not mach the pattern bottom side)
QuoteIf you can see on the PCB which pins go to just a resistor and then ground or VSS then you will be able to eliminate them from the equation.
Meaning the ones that read 0V should have a resistor?
That will be difficult, what I can see for now is:
-ex not connected
-x not connected
-reset not connected
-irq (doubt if its connected)
-sc/to (not connected)
-tc (not connected)
-p0 (seems not connected)
Does this make any sense
+0v may be a channel signal ;)
(this is a common thing on CAN-bus system for example )
Thanks for cheering me up
Looks like thinks will be much complicated then I thought.
But that will be the challenge :)
Already know more from the cdi then I did a week ago, so we ar going to right way 8)
Hello Guys,
After a good night sleep, came up with the next thought :)
If Yamaha has placed a order to make the (in this case) 3MA CDI's
The developers worked with ic's that existed at that time.
So looking fore a Fujitsu IC's build in 1989 will not be the case, as I doubt they will developed a ic specially for the 3ma cdi's
Also a bike that is coming on the marked at 1989 will be made/tested in begin 1988
So in the seach for a IC that could be used in the 3MA cdi, i have looked to IC's that where on the marked before 1989
And then it becomes more logical to me.
IC 88400
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049322.pdf (http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049322.pdf)
IC 88500
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-007/Scans-00141501.pdf (http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-007/Scans-00141501.pdf)
IC 88530
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049323.pdf (http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049323.pdf)
In short terms, the 88000 onwards series could be the one used.
Specially the 400 and 500 series are close to each other
The 530 is a bid different, how can we emulate this type
Now how does this idea sounds to the ones who are more into the IC's them me.
Personally think I'm close.
Hi Louis,
You should list what are the input/ouput of the CDI unit from Yamaha :
- TPS = input / analog input should be 0-5v signal = on pin ?
- RPM signal = input / digital imput could be 0-5v rising edge or falling edge or pulse
- Spark signal = output / digital could be signal going from 0->5V or 5->0V one
- airjet solenoid = output / digital could be signal going from 0->5V or 5->0V one
...
We can imagine replace the ship by a PIC µC board like this one :
http://www.tiertex.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51 (http://www.tiertex.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51)
Hi Olivier,
That is exactly what I'm planning, only I don't have a device that can generate a rotating engine.
So I need to build that.
(currently doing as it turns out the washing machine engine was delivered at the neighbors)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fmiele-motor.jpg&hash=7be08cc0dd4d6be6b00bb5a08186a0434be51a6f)
More info:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/start-build.html
What I'm trying to solve for now is getting some base line.
If the IC has some fixed measuring points witch I can already measure.
(without the need of a running engine)
like
-VSS
-VCC
What ells do have a steady Voltage measuring point?
-SO?
-SI?
-IRQ?
-EX?
-X?
If for example IRQ needs to be 4,98V to work (Or delivers 4,98V when ic is working), and I don't measured it on that pin number off the IC (sheet). Then I can remove that IC from the possibilities.
Just looking more into this, have to say the idea is super :)
If I understand it right, this could replace the whole IC With a programmable????
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiertex.com%2Fimage%2Fcache%2Fdata%2FTDS4550MINIP5-500x500.jpg&hash=84f13ac45738e27b13041fde5bc9833613512609)
There are more types
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robotshop.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F325x325%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2Fb%2Fa%2Fbasic-micro-basicatom40-m-microcontroller-module.jpg&hash=b01753527b8dde82aaf09a16e0b69ffff115aec3)
Need to let it rest a bid, as the more I read. The closer I think I am
@yanw and Olivier (and the rest who is following this) :)
Have put the measured values to the (what I think) the possible IC
(used copy/past so its not completely clear)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ficnugoed_zps8a8f4a16.jpg&hash=d0ef42886272bdce4133f1f041c9c62e72e7262b)
Now with the description what the values should be
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fomschr_zps9cafe0a5.jpg&hash=b96e2420899474f99cb31a949ebb963ed9a615c4)
It looks more logical to me
(My head hurts)
By multi layered I mean that there is not only tracks on the top and bottom of the board but also on other layers sandwiched in-between. I suspect that any pin at 4.96V is "tied up" and unused (don't quote me etc).
From the quick scan of the datasheet I think these ICs have a writeable memory that allows you to "put a program on it" (that's the 2K program memory on page 2). If they are like the PIC then you should also be able to pull this program off. It will be in HEX but you can use the datasheet to reverse that into the program code to map what it is doing. Youy will probably need a development board and the SDK to do this.
I suspect the programming was either done by Yamaha or contractors in-house to Yamaha.
I will try to have a better look at the datasheet over the next few days but I suspect they feed the flywheel timing signal into the timer/overflow on the chip and use the throttle etc settings to calculate the advance and then send the ignition pulse to the coils/turn the powervalves.
You make it sound that easy. wow
This is the sheet I used to drop my voltage readings in.
Hopefully its the on sitting in the CDI.
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-059/DSA2IH0049322.pdf
Thanks for the afford you already put into this
Louis
I'm planning to work on this together with Louis...
I'll check if standard 2XT CDI can be opened cleanly like Louis has done.
But as I only have one box in working order I'm not really motivated to open it !!!
From memory RZ350, RZ500, TZR250 1KT are potted box with epoxy resin or silicone gel and are very difficult to open (will check in the garage when rain will stops...
I'm looking for information about R1Z ones or later TDR ones.
Can someone confirm that R1Z are similar to 3MA and are not sealed?
Maybe I could make a PIC based CPU board to plug on OEM main board.
For example PIC18F2550 with 20MHz cristal could do the trick. No a lot of extra parts needed (enlighten in red in picture).
Hello Olivier
Great how more people with the know how, the further we should get
There isn't a lot off effort done for studying the TZR CDI's in the past. (also not by the Japanese)
Its a bid logical as you can buy a free programmable ignition for about 150euro's
(delivered at your door step)
But the CDI's have a bid off mystery in them (because nobody know exactly the difference between them)
Knowing the difference solves a bid off that mystery, and will make the afford worth While
(Specially for the ones who ar busy with it)
So why not study them (as part off the hobby) this will keep us busy in the winter ;D
Interesting Olivier.
QuotePIC18F2550 with 20MHz cristal could do the trick
Most of the time now I'm searching the internet.
Found that the old arcade games uses the 42pin fujitsu IC's with the 8840-core and 88xx-core
Called SPARTAN?? IC's
For those are made replacement boards like these:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pin4.at%2Fpics%2Ffdil_ext_debug.png&hash=0883999a3471aa90f73a383c9424e3fe3e9939d4)
and
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.trenz-electronic.de%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2FGODIL%2520XCS3500E_t1.jpg&hash=4e2499fef41c545360fa0c54f49f08d5caa8821c)
http://shop.trenz-electronic.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=632&SID
And
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.digikey.com%2FPhotos%2FDLP%2520Design%2520Inc%2FDLP-HS-FPGA2.jpg&hash=f0251b11cc5b7bf12ea6ac6a0448188183c4b720)
http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/fpga/15857
I'm trying to find out if they will be useful. (could use a little bid help with that) ;)
Next step will be finding witch signal is receiving/transmitting from what pin number.
For that have ordered some tools so I can desolder the IC and measure without the interference off the IC it self.
Of course afterwards a 42 pins socked will be placed so the ic can be placed back for measurements with a running engine
And for those measurements I'm building my ignition tester :)
Witch is in the stage of (rotating by hand) ::)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fvliegwiel-vast.jpg&hash=264ca49c0eea38e3258ca53a35193f7d4ab3f918)
Take a look here
http://www.tzr3ma.com/start-build.html
Hopefully ready soon 8)
The problem with FPGA is could we found free or open source development chain to build the code.
PIC is more like Arduino cost less and we could find free IDE to develop the code.
Louis can you list what is connected to the CDI unit on the 3MA ?
Eh
Quotecould we found free or open source development chain to build the code
Could we do what? With what doing who ;D ;D ;)
I'm not so far jet, but if the OEM IC has a possibility off reading his core/program
I'll try to do that. (Perhaps it maintain some crucial info)
QuoteLouis can you list what is connected to the CDI unit on the 3MA
From memory
-TPS sensor
-YPVS motor
-airjets
-speed limiter
-side switch
-kill switch
-pickup signal
-High voltage (rotor)
-plus
-mass
Will need to measure to be more exact
Louis here my 5%
You forgot the coil driving signal so no spark on your design...
-TPS sensor 3 wires
- 2 wires for power supply GND = 0V / VCC = 5v (Output for the board)
- 1 wire for TPS signal 0V->5V <=> Input for the IC on Analogic pin
-YPVS motor 5 wires
- 2 wires for power supply GND = 0V / VCC = 5v (Output for the board)
- 1 wire for Servo position signal 0V->5V <=> Input for the IC on analog pin
- 2 wires for DC motor<=> out for the IC on digital pin to drive the H-bridge
-airjets 2 or 4 wires
- 2 wires for power supply GND = 0V / VCC = 5v or 12v (could be on the bike loom)
- 2 wires for driving the solenoids 5v or 12v <=> Output for the IC on digital pin
-speed limiter
- don't know
- if on/off limiter then <=> Input for the IC on digital pin
-side switch 2 wires
- 1 wire to supply GND = 0V or VCC = 12v (could be on the bike loom)
- 1 wire after the switch <=> Input for the board or/and IC on digital pin
-kill switch2 wires
- 1 wire to supply GND = 0V (could be on the bike loom)
- 1 wire after the switch <=> Input for the board or/and IC on digital pin
-pickup signal 2 wires
- 1 wire to supply GND = 0V
- 1 wire after the pickup <=> Input for the board or/and IC on digital pin
-High voltage (rotor) 3 wires (from memory)
- Input for the board to charge the condenser
- No need to be connected to the IC
-Coil driving 1 wire
- signal -200v pulse due to condenser discharge (output for the board)
- driven by IC <=> Output for the IC on digital pin
-plus 1 wire
- to supply the power VCC = 12v
- Input for the board => give the 5V to the IC
-mass 1 wire
- to supply the GND = 0v
- Input for the board => give the 0V to the IC
QuoteYou forgot the coil driving signal so no spark on your design...
;D Haven't designed anything jet, was doing it from memory. :)
Thanks for the possible pin configuration.
Hopefully get my tools this week so I can solder the IC loose.
In order to measure the (incoming signal) with the corresponding pin number.
Also can look under the IC and follow the lines to see witch pin is connected and with pin not
Could be interesting
Cheers
You should look for an IC socket to solder on the board so you can make measurements with or without the IC in place.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg-europe.electrocomponents.com%2Flargeimages%2FR2677416-01.jpg&hash=7bd676db187b2621b09d6386db0fb0d4d41c9270)
http://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-pin-socket-strips/2677416/?origin=PSF_435706|fp&cm_sp=featureproducts-_-FeaturedProductsContent-_-2677416 (http://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-pin-socket-strips/2677416/?origin=PSF_435706%7Cfp&cm_sp=featureproducts-_-FeaturedProductsContent-_-2677416)
For example during the cleaning cycle of the ypvs, you will see :
- the analog input pin (check the datsheet for pin candidates) change with the rotation (you can check the voltage on the loom for closed and open position and then find the pin on the IC)
- the 2 digital output pins driving the YPVS servo
- opening direction PIN_X = 0v PIN_Y = 5v
- closing direction PIN_X = 5v PIN_Y = 0v
That is exactly what I had in mind ;)
QuoteNext step will be finding witch signal is receiving/transmitting from what pin number.
For that have ordered some tools so I can desolder the IC and measure without the interference off the IC it self.
Of course afterwards a 42 pins socked will be placed so the ic can be placed back for measurements with a running engine
I'm trying to be as fast as I can, but my workshop isn't supplied with fine electro tools. :-[
So had to order them to get the job done (hopefully)
I'm not that worried to locate the pin numbers who are sending/receiving there signals to there components.
(Not saying that it will be easy to find them)
As a car mechanic, I have had quit a few diagnostic trainings using the oscilloscope
So some basic Know how is there about the 5V signals
Hello Louis,
Glad to see you working this hard for this CDI!
Just finished repairing my CRM250AR cdi and it took me many days to understand the logic of it...The AR model is quite advanced CDI
I can confirm that tdr uses the same CDI with the same connectors and you can open it easily without the resin. I think 2XT is the same
I also tried to start my tdr with a 3MA cdi but of course it couldnt start as the flywheels had different lobes.
Louis, I did play a bit with 3MA cdi in the past in order to check the ypvs timings. I didnt build a flywheel thing like you but I connected the RPM in on my laptop's soundcard. Then I just created some sound samples with different frequencies and watched the servo motor moving. I also captured the CDI output using the soundcard input as oscilloscope.
So you dont need special or expensive hardware!
Hello Fotis,
Nice to see you :), Ill try to do my best solving the IC mystery.
With the help from others forum members (as you probably have been reading), we should come quit far.
So if you see/read something that I have been doing wrong, just point it out and joins us
(fine electro is more your field off expertise) ;)
Cheers
These bits of kit look interesting.....
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Main_Page#Projects
Doesn't the 2xt have the YPVs built into the same box as the cDi?
If so will it have the same Chip in it?
Excellent thread by the way. Great effort all round.
Yes 2XT has the YPVS driven by the CDI box.
I've not opened my box yet... a bit reluctant to do so as not much 2XT in France !!!
But I may do ;)
Quote from: tzr-v4 on November 06, 2013, 01:19:58 AM
Yes 2XT has the YPVS driven by the CDI box.
I've not opened my box yet... a bit reluctant to do so as not much 2XT in France !!!
But I may do ;)
:)
Still waiting for the tools, so sadly not much progress is done :-[
Although preparing all the wires from the cdi with connectors so it will be easier to disconnect one cable at the time to measure witch pin changes.
Also also preparing a steady 12V adapter to measure thinks in side the house (well its getting colder out there :P)
Hopefully all this all will be ready tomorrow.
Next thing is a thought/idea off me.
If I use a frequentiegenerator and put a signal on the pickup wire of 35 hertz
(1200rpm : 60 = 35 hertz) and use a two channel oscilloscope
Connect channel 1 on the pickup signal (measuring the 35 hertz) put channel 2 on the rpm/coil signal measuring the outcomming ignition signal.
If I trigger those values equal to each other would I not measure the 19 degrees (base setting)
(The 19 degrees is the only value we know (19 degrees at 1200rpm))
If I divide the measured outcome signal from channel 2 with 19 Then I will have a vulva for one degree.
So when rise the input signal from 35hertz to lets say 50hertz (3000rpm) the outcome signal will change too.
Measuring that result you mutiply that with the 1 degree value given you the degrees at 3000rpm.
If some one can follow my idea :-\
would this work??
If this is possible you could read the ignition curves very exact
Cheers
Hello Louis,
If you read my post you will notice that i did exactly the same but instead of using a tone generator i used my soundcard and instead of an oscilloscope i used my soundcard again!
And yes, it works....you will see a difference in the curves and you will also notice the limiter function after some rpm. You will also notice the power valve moving when ypu reach 5500rpm.
Quote from: Fotis on November 06, 2013, 10:58:06 PM
Hello Louis,
If you read my post you will notice that i did exactly the same but instead of using a tone generator i used my soundcard and instead of an oscilloscope i used my soundcard again!
And yes, it works....you will see a difference in the curves and you will also notice the limiter function after some rpm. You will also notice the power valve moving when ypu reach 5500rpm.
Did you use the output sound card to simulate the pickup signal ?
Louise is looking to test the CDI in "real" life situation if we could said...
I'll pickup at the lab tomorrow the board, sockets, resistor... to make a IC emulator this weekend (if other family members are ok ;D )
Fotis,
Yes I have read your post, and the idea is based on it.
What I'm trying to say is can I measure the outcome signal like that?
Without the income off the HT coils?? will it give a rpm signal????
And
Can the value at 35 hertz be divide with 19 degrees so you will know what 1 degrees is????
If we know what value 1 degree is, we can calculate all other hetz.
This will give very accurate ignition curve values
Olivier,
QuoteI'll pickup at the lab tomorrow the board, sockets, resistor... to make a IC emulator this weekend (if other family members are ok )
Great work we are all on the move :)
Have opened a (broken) ignitech to see what for kind off Ic they are using.
But they have glue/waxed the whole circuitboard. Have removed the outside but you will keep a black box.
Can I remove that glue by throwing it in petrol?? (don't worry it was already broken)
Quote from: tzr-v4 on November 06, 2013, 11:10:24 PM
Did you use the output sound card to simulate the pickup signal ?
Yes I used the line out for generating the signal and the line in to read the out put as an oscilloscope. The only thing you have to do is make sure you use the right voltage dividers to protect your soundcard. Obviously you will take the out put signal before the amplification (just follow the trace from the big capacitor)
Quote from: Louis on November 06, 2013, 11:16:04 PM
Can the value at 35 hertz be divide with 19 degrees so you will know what 1 degrees is????
If we know what value 1 degree is, we can calculate all other hetz.
This will give very accurate ignition curve values
hmm I dont understand what you want to achieve by doing this...The only thing that CDI does is delaying the signal. So if you put the input and output signals on your oscilloscope you will be able to pick up the advance curve by comparing the difference of the signals. Depending on your oscilloscope settings you will be able to calculate the exact time difference of the curves
Quote from: Louis on November 06, 2013, 11:21:07 PM
Have opened a (broken) ignitech to see what for kind off Ic they are using.
But they have glue/waxed the whole circuitboard. Have removed the outside but you will keep a black box.
Can I remove that glue by throwing it in petrol?? (don't worry it was already broken)
I am very curious about their design...You can soak it in a solvent for a day that will soften the rubber a bit. But I am afraid you have to scrap it with a screwdriver very carefully. Just dont push hard as you might damage the parts.
You say its broken but once you open it you might find an easy fix!
Louis,
look for potting removing on google you'll find the type of chemical to use.
We are use to talk about degree to speak about ignition but the IC is only counting time.
The pickup is "fired" by the rotor at a given crank angle due to the mechanical setup.
This angle is the maximum advance the CDI can make if the spark is produced with not retard.
That value is at least 28° on the 3MA because CDI curve has 28° advance at 3000rpm so mechanical angle should be greater.
The IC will compute for a given rpm value the time to wait (retard) before firing the spark to get a the end the right advance value in degree.
With your oscilloscope, you'll be able to measure the time between the pickup signal and spark (or the driving spark signal on the IC).
The pickup signal frequency will gives you the rpm after some small maths (correct me if I'm wrong it is late...).
3MA has a waisted spark ignition so :
Freal = Fpickup / 2 = Rotation Per Second /*RPS*/
RPM = 60 * Freal
Fpickup = 200Hz -> Freal = 100Hz -> RPM = 6000
For an Angleadvance of 22° at 6000 RPM Tretard is computed as follow
RSpeed = 360 * Fpickup / 2 in ° per s
Anglemechanical = 28°
Angleretard = Anglemechanical - Angleadvance = 6°
Tretard = Angleretard / RSpeed = Angleretard * 2 / (360 * Fpickup)
Tretard at 6000rpm = 6 * 2 / (360 * 200) = 16.6666 10-3 s = 16.6666 ms
So at 6000rpm the IC has to wait 16ms after the pickup signal before firing the spark and it uses a timer to count this delay (we should add the counting frequency to compute how many counting cycle the timer should do).
Tretard at 3000rpm = 0 * 2 / (360 * 100) = 0 ms
So at 3000rpm, the IC fires the spark immediately after the pickup signal is detected.
This is not easy to make so Anglemechanical should be greater than 28° maybe 30°...
A modified woodruff key will change this Anglemechanical so slide all the CDI curve.
Its getting difficult to explain what I want because English is not my languages
I'll try again.
I understand and its logical that the outcomming signal will change when you change the incomming signal. (the IC is following his program)
But by comparing/measuring those values they only tell you the time/voltage but no degrees.
The 3ma manual says that you have 19 degrees at 1200rpm
That 1200rpm wil be (1200/60=35Hertz)
If I set my incoming signal at 70Hertz (thanks Olivier two lobs at the flywheel) The value what you measure at the outcoming signal will be ....Ms With ....Mv
That outcoming measured signal value will be the 19 degrees.
Ones know that ....ms By ...mv Is 19 degrees. It will be easy to calculate what 1 degree is.
Knowing what 1 degree is you can calculate every outcome signal to degrees.
This I need to know when drawing the curve on paper
Will come back on this, need some sleep now ::)
Thanks guys for the input really appreciate it
Cheers
Attention some basic error Louis (go to bed !!!)
Quote from: Louis on November 07, 2013, 12:58:31 AM
The 3ma manual says that you have 19 degrees at 1200rpm
That 1200rpm wil be (1200/60=20Hertz)
If I set my incoming signal at 40Hertz (thanks Olivier two lobs at the flywheel) The value what you measure at the outcoming
If your pickup signal is at 40Hz (for 1200rpm) then the time T
mesured between the pickup signal and firing signal is the T
retard for F
real = 20Hz.
RSpeed = 360 * F
real = 360 * 20 = 7200 °/s
T
retard = Angle
retard / RSpeed
Angle
retard = T
retard * RSpeed
Angle
retard at 1200rpm = T
mesured * 7200
Angle
mechanical = 19° + Angle
retard at 1200rpm Then you could use the computed value of Angle
mechanical for other pickup frequency (rpm)
Angle
advance at XXXrpm = Angle
mechanical - Angle
retard at XXXrpm Angle
advance at XXXrpm = Angle
mechanical - T
measured at XXXrpm * 360 * F
pickup for XXXrpm / 2
Going to bed now !!! ;D
I'm a little bid embarrassed :-[ , don't know how I came at 35hertz.
Yes of course Olivier you are completely right, its 20 hertz for 1200rpm :) (40 hertz for the two lobe flywheel)
Olivier
I know you are trying to teaching me something.
But I don't get it. (what you mean)
The plan inside my mind does not calculate with Tmesured Tretard for Freal etc.
I'm on my work now, so don't have time to explain better
Will try again when I'm home :)
Cheers
The Xbox-modders I know use a heat gun/paint stripper to remove the goo on the Xbox motherboard. They have to be VERY careful.
Second attempt :)
(The ms are just example value's, don't know them for now)
Ok.
If I put a 40Hz (1200rpm) signal on the pickup wire it will go to the IC the IC will calculate the value for the outcome signal (ignition)
That outcome signal at 40Hz is measured at (example) 30ms
I know that the engine sparks at 19degrees at 1200rpm (19 degrees is 40Hz)
So 19 degrees divided by 30ms = 0,6333ms
1 degree = 0,63333ms
Now put a 100Hz on the pickup wire and the IC calculates a ignition signal, I measure the outcome signal at 17ms
So 0,63333 x 17ms = 27degrees
Etc etc.
(If it will be like this, it will be easy to draw the ignition curve)
That was my question, Could the outcome signal (ignition) be calculated like this???
Hello Yan,
QuoteThe Xbox-modders I know use a heat gun/paint stripper to remove the goo on the Xbox motherboard. They have to be VERY careful.
I could give it a go like that, you mean it could meld off the circuit board with heat.
Through time have two destroyed ignitech boxes, So will give it a try
Cheers
Quote from: Louis on November 07, 2013, 09:39:23 PM
So 19 degrees divided by 30ms = 0,6333ms
1 degree = 0,63333ms
the 19° on the CDI curve is the angle between spark and TDC and the result of this computation :
Angle
advance = Angle
mechanical - Angle
retardAt 1200rpm, 1 degree is equivalent to XXX ms but at 2400rpm 1 degree is equivalent to XXX/2 ms...
But you can not use 19° because your 30ms are linked to this number of degree :
Angle
retard = Angle
mechanical - Angle
advanceI'll try to make an xls file...
Feels like I'm back in school ;D
Quotethe 19° on the CDI curve is the angle between spark and TDC and the result of this computation :
I can follow you on this part
.
Slowly my thoughts are getting destroyed with this one
QuoteAt 1200rpm, 1 degree is equivalent to XXX ms but at 2400rpm 1 degree is equivalent to XXX/2 ms...
Think I see it now, the increasing HZ will shorten the outcome signal by xxxms, but also the IC is calculating his ignition signal compared to the HZ it is getting
Two variables.
Was never a quick student, but did like to know what I did wrong ;D
Quote from: yanw on November 07, 2013, 09:35:26 AM
The Xbox-modders I know use a heat gun/paint stripper to remove the goo on the Xbox motherboard. They have to be VERY careful.
goo on the motherboard? hmm I modded 3 xbox but never seen the same black goo?
I think they use heatguns to re solder the main cpu and gpu
I've made a quick libreoffice sheet and the PDF below.
OK not the real 3MA curve as I've copied a curve from Louis web ;)
I've put the data and 2 graphics :
- CDI curve + Static angle + retard angle
- CDI curve + retard angle + retard duration
You'll notice that from 3000rpm to 12500rpm the time to wait between the pickup signal to the spark is about 0.4ms and almost a constant value.
This is due to the increase of the engine rotation in ° per second.
Quote from: Fotis on November 08, 2013, 12:11:12 AM
goo on the motherboard? hmm I modded 3 xbox but never seen the same black goo?
I think they use heatguns to re solder the main cpu and gpu
I thought the 360 had a green coating on the motherboard to prevent you soldering it. I could well be wrong.
That green coating is a solder mask and stops the solder running where you don't want it - between tracks. many of these boards would be flow soldered where the board passes over a pool of molten solder and it clings to the non green parts ie component pads. some sensitive devices won't be fitted till after this process, soldered by hand due to heat generated in the process.
Hello Olivier.
Thanks for the sheets
It starts to give me a better idea now, how it is working.
Hope you had some kind off program that filled the answers in, or did you calculate it all by hand :o
Will be nice to see if I can measure your sheet results in real live.
Hopefully me second tools set will do that :)
We are right on topic, yesterday received my first stage of tools to do (hopefully) the job
Was home yesterday around 21.00 and when I found the packing immediately started with desoldering the IC.
Had it loose at around 23.00. :o
(What a work, isn't there a trick to do it faster)
Have to say it was my first IC that I desolder, but ''man'' this will keep you busy for hours ;D
Used a vacuum pump and desolder wire.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/soldering-the-ic-loose.html
But manage to get it loose in one peach.
It reviled the circuit route that went under the IC
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fic-uit-printplaat.jpg&hash=32b2156271565463cd07c40fa8be6238266bf71f)
Will try to measure signals (today) to see what pin (place) does what.
Hopefully it will emulate the questions about some pin locations
Good work Louis.
I'm soldering the new CPU board.... as the weather is bad.
Will post pictures later...
Thanks Olivier,
Had time to measure thinks today :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2FIC-meting.jpg&hash=d580263f4296fe5f8b136c4290516c1de85f62b1)
The start looks promising.
more here
http://www.tzr3ma.com/starting-measuring-ic-values.html
Also measured some frequency signals (block and sinus)??????
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F1-puls-signaal.jpg&hash=8fc54e1aab2469cd94d27f263b8b486bf48b0196)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fsinus.jpg&hash=6221fece9f6dbd79a062a2c836cbf4100997915f)
Having problems finding the
-pickup signal
Have tried to give it a pulse with my frequent generator, but it does not react.
Any ideas on how to solve that.??
(think it has something to do with the High voltage setup)
Louis good stuff :D
Lot of useful information already identified.
I've made a very first replacement IC PCB.
I can run the PIC programmer on and PIC was detected correctly so I can program it not.
New idea...
The easiest solution could be to make a cable with the 42 signal going out the original CDI Box and use an already develop PIC board.
I've got 2 of these at 13£ + PIC 18F2550 at 4£ on ebay UK.
Imagine the original IC location and the Yamaha PCB below...
Ok, looks Nice :)
I'm not familiar how that works, but you can plug the original 42 IC on the right and read it out???
Then program the newer (smaller) IC with the same settings???
Will it be possible to use only the signals from the original cdi??
If the replacement IC only counts 28 pins, would it not be easier to use the signals that are needed
(instead of soldering 42 wires)
Example:
- +5V
- Mass
- pickup signal
- ypvs (sensor)
- ypsv (drive)
- ypvs (drive)
- tps sensor
- airjet 1
- airjet 2
- Ignition signal
- kill switch
- (spare)
Lets say 14 wires. (Now we know most of the location's)
Can I not solder that 14 wires (or more) on the original pin locations (on the circuit board) that gives those signals
And solder them to the 14 pins signals (input en output) that will be used on the 28 pins IC
You would be better soldering in an IC header / socket as these boards are fragile and will not take much repeated soldering before the component pads fall off
Nice Louis!
In order to feed it with RPM you have to bypass the first components (some resistors) because it reduces the voltage from the pick up
Hello Jools,
Quotethese boards are fragile and will not take much repeated soldering before the component pads fall off
Yes that I have noticed, one component pad did come loose :-[
And have a feeing some are half loose.
Small luck with this is that the one that came loose was not connected too anything.
It was difficult to remove all solder, in order to take out the ic.
I wanted to keep this one in tact for further testing
(perhaps I used a bid to much heat)
Seen a youtube movie how they remove IC's, they cut all pins and take the IC out.
Then the desolder each cut pin that is left behind on the board
(looking at that movie, it looks a lot easier)
Planning this for my spare 3MA 00 CDI that I'm using.
The one I'm using now will be my first/experimental/learning CDI board :)
Will use a 42 pins socked and go from there.
(still need to remove the remaining solder gently in order to get all little holes clear,will give it a go)
Hello Fotis,
QuoteIn order to feed it with RPM you have to bypass the first components (some resistors) because it reduces the voltage from the pick up
Thanks, that is the answer was looking for.
How many resistors do we need to skip? (just follow the line and skip a few)
And what should the Voltage be for the generator? (around 500mv will do)
The only way actually is to test and check after each resistor...The CDI uses a protection circuit for the RPM signal as it can reach voltages as high as 80Volts! (on high rpm)
I was using my soundcard as generator so I assume 1volt would be ok.
There are some special welding stations with vacuum soldering irons that suck everything! Something like this:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/product/186624/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK%7CShopping-_-Google+PLA-_-Weller%7CSoldering+Stations-_-186624&kpid=&istCompanyId=f7e7b05b-2daf-4c0e-8825-3633baf8113b&istItemId=xwipxirar&istBid=tzit&gclid=COjxvNXo2LoCFZMdtAodeXYAaQ
The tip is to use a very good quality soldering iron that has enough heat so as not to cool down
when applying it to the work. In this way the tip is only on the work for a very short time and always use a small blob of solder
to allow the heat to penetrate through the joint quickly.
Many of the cheap irons have to be left on the pad for two seconds or more and this can be enough to loosen the pad.
Here the schematic using Fritzing Open Source tool
http://fritzing.org/ (http://fritzing.org/)
Louis, you should give me more details on the "block signal"
Missing the pickup signal ????
This signal should be connected to a pin with interrupt function.
Will check the IC data sheet.
Hello Jools,
Have to say I'm probably using a cheap soldering iron, it needs to stay a hobby for me :)
The Link Fotis gave will probably be a professional solder iron but that cost about 2300pound :o
That was not what I had in mind
Need to work with what I got, next time I will cut the IC loose, and desolder the individually pins loose
Hopefully this will make it easier
Thanks for the tip
Cheers
Olivier,
I just discovered something.
Wait o moment, I'm typing it all ;D
Seems to me that datasheet is wrong for our IC
YPVS Position, TPS Sensor and Speed Limiter should be on Analogical Signal input pins and the document said that those pins are on P-Port = 4 bits output
I was measuring and measuring and I couldend find any signal going into the IC.
The signal only came to the:
Toshiba T2333 9-pin IC (probably used for pulse conditioning)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FT2333_zpsbf857412.jpg&hash=3c770ef664d459fa8c4135e4c5ea3afb944674f9)
In a desperate move I even made a quick pulse (setup) so I know the CDI is getting a signal
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fsnelpuls_zps542b0684.jpg&hash=801ea85908adfadf1089d09b8b0cde29f8e5ac6a)
But ones a gain no signal is received at the IC
Also the tip fotis gave to start giving pulses after some resistors did not do the trick.
But then I had it, Fotis probably used the 3MA-10 cdi as he had a 3ma3 bike
But this is a 3ma-00 cdi.
Quickly connected a 3ma-10 cdi on my quickly build phuser and all is working
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2F3ma-10meet_zpsbc113ee8.jpg&hash=418979affa1d052e831928480221551c7d5a11e2)
Conclusion
The 3MA-00 CDI needs the HV input to work.
Not only The ignition needs it also the ypvs needs it. Without that those two wont work
Think there will be a separate power circuit working, ones the HV signal is coming from the stator
Meaning if we construct a replacement IC it will need to work with the same signals
If the IC on the 3ma-10 hase the same route, (witch looks like it if you study the lines)
Pin 13 is the out going pulse
pin 22 is the in coming pulse
Also emulated some more pins :)
New sheet
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fsheetbeter_zpsb056b468.jpg&hash=9a2ae00346c3291f3b80402843ec18d36497869b)
QuoteSeems to me that datasheet is wrong for our IC
Yes, think these IC's are custom made.
But we are getting close now
Could it be that the IC is set on:
RC-network Oscillator
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fkloksettings_zps240c396d.jpg&hash=0ef695dcf4621f1c467da633e851d376f3ff9eb3)
Because Pin 23 and 24 are connected witch each other
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fbrug_zps1ae836f9.jpg&hash=2e408a1b92b813f08a2939e7dd0d899ec072b022)
Regarding the rest of the signals
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fsignalen_zpsece38ab2.jpg&hash=f90d7ac88e16d5f16ac5a22f33b8cea7b0925cbb)
pin 2 (start signal)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F1-puls-signaal.jpg&hash=8fc54e1aab2469cd94d27f263b8b486bf48b0196)
pin 25 (clocksignal)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fblok-signaal.jpg&hash=eb77b4d601506e5b6bdbbe331a055ae3491e2109)
You have a cristal on board (metallic component close to IC)
23-24 are connected but don't see what they are doing ?
Don't see why we should have a DAC !!!!
We need 3 ADC lines (analogic to digital converter) for YPSV, TPS and Speed sensors.
Attached the last version of the schematic.
Still pins 18 23 24 25 are confusing to me.
Neutral and Side stand switch on the same pin then you should find a box on the loom to manage the 2 signal (existing on the 2MA loom from memory)
QuoteYou have a cristal on board (metallic component close to IC)
Think I have, this component I not placed on the 3MA-10 cdi
QuoteStill pins 18 23 24 25 are confusing to me.
Could be specific signals/setup for setting up the IC right
Here the cristal
Yes, sorry that one i whas forgotten :)
that cristal lowers the voltage?
Signal data :
Pin 22 : From the pickup circuitry, Is the signal 0-5V pulse / square form wave ?
Pin 5-6 YPVS Motor : Does the voltage is constant during the rotor rotation ?
- Pin 5 = 5V and Pin 6 = 0V when turning in direction 1
- Pin 5 = 0V and Pin 6 = 5V when turning in direction 2 (revers of 1 ;) )
Pin 36 37 33 : Does the signal variation is continuous (maybe not application for the Speed sensor) ?
Pin 11 : Does the signal have only 2 states : 0V or 5V for the side stand security ?
Pin 13 : Does the signal have only 2 states : 0V or 5V for driving ignition coil ?
With these information I could setup a pic board configuration.
Quote from: Louis on November 10, 2013, 07:15:06 PM
Yes, sorry that one i whas forgotten :)
that cristal lowers the voltage?
No the cristal is making the IC clock signal.
The clock frequency is written on the part : 6.000MHz or so...
Stuff needed to start programming PIC for this project
(other route can by ARDUINO)
HARDWARE :
Board at 10US$ including a PIC16F886 to start with
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iCP23-iBoard-Tiny-x28-Microchip-28pin-PIC16F886-IO-Board-Size-7cm-X-2-3cm-/281073235339?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417145358b (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iCP23-iBoard-Tiny-x28-Microchip-28pin-PIC16F886-IO-Board-Size-7cm-X-2-3cm-/281073235339?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417145358b)
Better PIC 18F2550 at 6.5US$ (or 18F2553)
http://www.piccircuit.com/shop/pic-microcontroller/79-pic18f2550.html (http://www.piccircuit.com/shop/pic-microcontroller/79-pic18f2550.html)
Cristal 20Mhz at 1.5US$ (to get maximum speed and later maybe USB connection)
http://www.rkonlinestore.co.uk/20mhz-3-pin-ceramic-resonator-pack-of-4-526-p.asp (http://www.rkonlinestore.co.uk/20mhz-3-pin-ceramic-resonator-pack-of-4-526-p.asp)
PIC programmer at 16US$
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iCP01v2-USB-Microchip-ICSP-PIC-Programmer-PIC10-12-16-18F-dsPIC30-PICkit2-SW-/390553997939?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aeed51273 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iCP01v2-USB-Microchip-ICSP-PIC-Programmer-PIC10-12-16-18F-dsPIC30-PICkit2-SW-/390553997939?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aeed51273)
This UK based company has also very good products.
http://www.rkeducation.co.uk/Home.php (http://www.rkeducation.co.uk/Home.php)
SOFTWARE
Free programmer (to send the code into the IC)
picpgm.picprojects.net (http://picpgm.picprojects.net)
C programming IDE (limited to 2ko code but at work I've full version)
http://www.mikroe.com/mikroc/pic/ (http://www.mikroe.com/mikroc/pic/)
Hello Olivier,
Sorry fore the somewhat late replay, had visitors. :)
Its all difficult to say. Because without no HV input, ignition and pv's wont work.
I could only tell witch where the pv by switching on/off the cdi and let it do his cleaning cycle.
There I noticed those pins swishing (around 5V)
QuotePin 22 : From the pickup circuitry, Is the signal 0-5V pulse / square form wave ?
Could not measure this on the 00cdi. But done this on the 3MA-10 cdi
With these results (a small notice the 3ma-10 cdi has hardy any 5V more like 2,5V?)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Frpmsignal10cdi_zpsb047d101.jpg&hash=ccbdfdf205fc33cc1075533695903647af504f62)
This signal change a bid when you turn at the TPS sensor (so output signal i think)
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This signal is a steady signal (no changes with the tps sensor) it only changes when the rpm rises
I guess this will be about the same on the 3ma-00cdi perhaps (more around 5V ore less)
QuotePin 36 37 33 : Does the signal variation is continuous (maybe not application for the Speed sensor)
Yes, You see the value go up or down by turning at the TPS, same with the pv up and down (cleaning cycle)
Speed sensor is 2,2V to 5V when you block the optics (2,2 open 5v something between optick)
QuotePin 13 : Does the signal have only 2 states : 0V or 5V for driving ignition coil ?
Can't tell exactly but think yes 0V ore 5V the frequency is the rpm
QuoteThe clock frequency is written on the part : 6.000MHz or so...
It has written 600NDK91
Ok it looks like the parts are affordable. That's a good thing
If We design a IC/PIC Why not use only the signals that we need.
-Side swish and speed limiter (don't need them)
-Airjets could be handy in a later version. (for now don't need them)
Only
-TPS (signal)
-PV's (pos signal)
-PV's control signal
-Pickup signal
-Ignition signal
-Working voltage
-Mass
That should be around 8 wires
On the new pic board it self we can make the communication.
Or isn't it that simple :)
This is also a nice site: http://www.transmic.net/en/16628-v7.htm
By the way, Can't I bypass the HV circuit so I can test the rest off the signals properly
Think somewhere on that circuit board, the HV signal should be brought down to usable voltage.
Any ideas on this
Louis the toshiba t2333 must be the bridge for the servo. Yamaha uses the same on the ypvs controllers if i remember correctly...check its outputs to see if they go to the servo
Hello Fotis,
This treat is flying with all that good info :)
There are two T2333 on the CDI board, non is connected to the pv directly. (what I can see quickly)
Can measure one with the pickup pulses.
But......
There is a third one also a Toshiba but differently (can reed the number as its all waxed in)
belief something with a 8 in it.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fickleur_zps9b647180.jpg&hash=242f7934838177a39a85a3158047c95c5042513f)
Goes directly to the pin 5 and 6 (marked in red and the red dots)
So that will be the one 'bridge for the servo''
We are going great, another component known now ;)
Quote from: Louis on November 10, 2013, 10:28:45 PM
If We design a IC/PIC Why not use only the signals that we need.
-Side swish and speed limiter (don't need them)
-Airjets could be handy in a later version. (for now don't need them)
Only
-TPS (signal)
-PV's (pos signal)
-PV's control signal
-Pickup signal
-Ignition signal
-Working voltage
-Mass
That should be around 8 wires
On the new pic board it self we can make the communication.
Or isn't it that simple :)
This is also a nice site: http://www.transmic.net/en/16628-v7.htm
On the PIC, we can easily get the 11 signals:
-TPS (signal) => Analog input 0->5v
-PV's (pos signal) => Analog input 0->5v
-PV's control signal => 2 digital outputs 0v or 5v states
-Pickup signal => 1 digital input 0v or 5v states
-Ignition signal => 1 digital output 0v or 5v states
-Working voltage => 5V or 12v (depends if the PIC board had a voltage regulator on)
-Mass => Must be the same as the YAMAHA CDI board for signal
-Airjets => 2 digital outputs 0v or 5v states
-Side swish and speed limiter (don't need them)
Will try to setup a PIC schematics.
We need to look, for the PIC choice, at the internal resources we need :
- 2 analog inputs
- 5 digital outputs
- 1 digital input
- 1 timer to count pickup signal period or frequency (RPM)
- 1 timer to count the delay time between pickup signal and Ignition signal (according to CDI curve)
We could easily add a communication with a computer using serial port with a cable, USB adapter or bluetooth adapter.
I've already made a programmable YPVS box but was struggling with capturing ignition signal (0v -> -200v) on the orange wire of the loom.
http://ypvsbox.free.fr/?page_id=88 (http://ypvsbox.free.fr/?page_id=88)
Think I got him.
Its the MB88P505H :) (build in 1987) ;)
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http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/datasheetsmain/Datasheets-112/DSAP0049312.pdf
Pointing out some interesting facts
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Pin 1 and 2 (Not connected, possible programming function)
Pin 13 pickup input signal??????
Pin 16 and 17 where giving a sinus signal
Why?. because they are directly connected to the external Cristal (clock)
(the red dots)
Pin 18 Is directly connected at the T2333 (green dot)
Pin 19 and 20 Are not connected (They don't need to external function)
Pin 22 rpm signal (Perhaps its the outgoing signal, (because pin 13 is only a input port)
Pin 23 and 24 Are connected to each other, but if I read it correctly that is possible
Pin 25 Has a function as test terminal. Giving the measured signal
Pin 41 Start signal
Etc etc.
For the ones who know what they are doing (not me) 8)
Please reed the datasheet, and tell me if I'm close
If I have more time will try to measure those signals Exact
But if this is the correct IC, is it programmable?
Hi boys i'm loveing this thread it's a pitty i haven't got a f$"£&^G clue what your all talking about :o
I should have paid attention at school ;D
only joking i do get the general idea keep the good work up ;)
Steve
Louis,
I've downloaded the datasheet and I'll study it tomorrow afternoon.
In the morning I'll be lecturing PIC Micro-controller for the engineering students.
I'll post back.
Hello Olivier,
Quick note, Just read that the
-MB88P505H is a (one time prom) ''OTPROM'' is this one only programmable one time?
The
-MB88505 - MB88505H have a mask ROM (programmable)
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/datasheetsmain/Datasheets-28/DSA-544172.pdf
Family/series off the
-MB88500H
-MB88501H
-MB88503H
-MB88505H
Like to know if we have a one time programmable or a normal? Programmable.
The pin setting is about the same with the MB88500 onwards serie.
So hopefully we have a programmable :)
It is unlikely to be a programmable device. More likely to be a mask rom device - this means it is preprogrammed when it is made and cannot be changed later. This would be the case to stop any corruption rather than to stop it being updated.
I'll check this evening at home but I think we should not try to find more details on the IC.
We should do some live testing to get the correct wave form of the signal :
- Test the YPVS during cleaning cycle :
- closing : pin XX at 5V and pin YY at 0V
- opening : pin XX at 0V and pin YY at 5V
- YPVS sensor pin :
- fully opened = XX Volt
- fully closed = XX Volt
- Test the TPS
- TP Sensor pin :
- fully opened = XX Volt
- fully closed = XX Volt
To do so you should solder on the board an IC socket to plug the original IC and check the signal while the bike is running.
With this information we could setup a PIC to emulate the original IC.
Sample 1 : drive the YPVS motor using the TPS
- when the TPS is closed then the YPVS is closed
- when the TPS is opened then the YPVS is fully opened
- otherwise in between
Hello guys,
Steve, we will certainly keep up the good work :)
Looks like we have a good change that in the end a replacement IC/board is made.
QuoteIt is unlikely to be a programmable device. More likely to be a mask rom device - this means it is preprogrammed when it is made and cannot be changed later
''That'' Will most likely be the case, I'm just pointing out some possibilities to make sure we high light all options.
For example:
If the IC is only programmable one time then ''OK'' but will it be possible to read it's program off?
If this is possible, you can change that program to what ever you need and program it back on a new IC
As it looks like these IC's are still for sale
http://www.galco.com/buy/Fujitsu/MB88P505H
You see, just Like to know what IC is used, in order to understand it better :)
For me the goal is
-To find witch IC is mounted.
-Will it be possible to replace it by something modern
A topic with two question's 8)
Hello Olivier,
QuoteI'll check this evening at home but I think we should not try to find more details on the IC.
A little bid focus on the Old Ic wont harm us ;) Just like to know what IC we have exactly and what we can do with it. (programming/reading)
Dont worry, will focus on the signals ;D
QuoteWe should do some live testing to get the correct wave form of the signal
Will give it a go.
Remember I work with two 3MA00 CDI's
-one with IC removed
-one completely stock
So measuring signals is still possible ;)
Have ordered a IC socked/strip for the First test project CDI
Hopefully my motor speed controller will be here within a couple off days.
Than it should be possible to (simulate a working engine)
And can I measure the signals more exact
That's fine.
I'll do 2 test's samples :
-1) Capture RPM simulation signal and compute retard delay and then CDI Advance
-2) Capture TPS position and drive YPVS servo to have YPVS Position sensor (voltage) equals TPS position (voltage)
I'll try to list the electronic bits you'll need for this to test.
The PIC will send the data to the PC using serial port and data will be stored in a file for post visualization.
Quote- Test the YPVS during cleaning cycle :
- closing : pin XX at 5V and pin YY at 0V
- opening : pin XX at 0V and pin YY at 5V
- YPVS sensor pin :
- fully opened = XX Volt
- fully closed = XX Volt
- Test the TPS
- TP Sensor pin :
- fully opened = XX Volt
- fully closed = XX Volt
It sounds easy measuring the cleaning cycle :-[
But the whole cycle takes about 1 a 1,5 sec. My multimeter is not that fast ;D
So my values on the display are jumping ::)
Best will be if my ignition tester is ready so can give it (relative) steady pulse
So measuring will be more exact.
Think these measuring will give you a idea.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fmeetwarderes_zps30d67cf5.jpg&hash=8b650c6627e668a46478bf16934be1cf9b161a26)
The IC seems to have a steady/starting point (always the values come back to those values)
QuoteSample 1 : drive the YPVS motor using the TPS
- when the TPS is closed then the YPVS is closed
- when the TPS is opened then the YPVS is fully opened
- otherwise in between
Would it not be logical to position the ypvs compared with the rpm?
Another small question.
Looking at your IC drawing
It looks like the pickup signal is directly on the pin number?
On the original it gets his signal from a T2333
If the engine stops, should there not be a signal to set the IC back for his starting point?
Like the Reset pulls on pin 18 (given by a another T2333)
Originla the Ypvs drive signal is going to a Bridge?
My point/question
Do we use the original signal's (only the one's we need) on the new PIC
ore are we trying to get hour signals somewhere on the board it self? (sodering wires)
Hi Louis
The purpose of my drawing is just to summarize what you have found looking closely at the OEN CDI.
At the end this will help us for the routing on the new IC pins.
For sure the DC motor which drives the YPVS box is not directly connected to the IC... there is a H-bridge in between.
Same for Ignition signal which drives the spark...
This is why we need the experimental measurements while the bike is running.
We want to use all the OEM components from the YAMAHA CDI except the IC. so we need to replicate the output signals and be sure that the input signals will not damage the new IC (PIC).
For example to drive the spark generation, we need to know if the OEM IC output signal is :
- case A : signal is normally low 0V and goes high 5V for some time then goes low again. Rising edge drives the spark.
- case B : signal is normally high 5V and goes low 0V for some time then goes high again. Falling edge drives the spark.
For the solenoid you will also find some components maybe the other bridges to drive the 12V from the 5V output signals (IC pin can not drive a lot of current).
The YPVS position should be related to RPM, but it may also be affected by other signals such as TPS (Throttle position). This can better be found when you have the simulated engine running. You can also draw up a nice graph showing YPVS position against revs. :-)
Quote from: 4l04ever on November 13, 2013, 10:51:27 AM
The YPVS position should be related to RPM, but it may also be affected by other signals such as TPS (Throttle position). This can better be found when you have the simulated engine running. You can also draw up a nice graph showing YPVS position against revs. :-)
Yes for sure at the end but to do some testing of the new IC and firmware.
This test will validate :
- the TPS capture
- the YPVS position capture
- the YPVS motor driving.
To go further... test the capture of RPM signal to drive the YPVS at least as good as the OEM CDI...
I do have some information on making a CDI.....including circuits for converting pickup signals to TTL 5V levels suitable for processor inputs....
Quote from: 4l04ever on November 13, 2013, 04:50:32 PM
I do have some information on making a CDI.....including circuits for converting pickup signals to TTL 5V levels suitable for processor inputs....
From the pickup signal OK, Can you share?
Did you try it doing the same on the Yamaha Orange wire driving the coil and also going to the tachometer ?
I'll be interested in for adapting other tachometer to my bikes...
Hello Olivier,
QuoteThe purpose of my drawing is just to summarize what you have found looking closely at the OEN CDI.
At the end this will help us for the routing on the new IC pins.
Ok sorry I didn't know the meaning of your drawing, thought it was the end drawing
QuoteWe want to use all the OEM components from the YAMAHA CDI except the IC. so we need to replicate the output signals and be sure that the input signals will not damage the new IC (PIC).
Yes that is exactly the plan :)
Today the speed controller for my ignition tester came in.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41IpkVlcyJL._SX300_.jpg&hash=c4ae65cf89111e9d4e8aaeb3d2b6cdc5d9397f89)
I hooked it up at my microdrill and tried it. It does work, but not that good as I thought :-\
Perhaps the microdrill engine is to small to be controlled by that (big) controller
So hopefully it will do better on my (bigger) ignition tester engine
Have a little bid time this Saturday, if all goes well the ignition tester will work
Louis,
perhaps another solution might be to remove the variable speed control from the micro drill and house it in a box and incorporate a digital tacho somehow ?
A lot more work, but you will be using the control designed for that motor.
Hello Jools,
Thanks for the tip, but it looks like its working perfect :)
Today I connected the speed engine controller at the ignition tester (device).
And its spinning like a kitten, can use any rpm 8)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/start-build.html (http://www.tzr3ma.com/start-build.html)
So one small worry is gone for me, will try to mound the pickup on his location this Saturday.
And than I should have a working ignition tester to controle the 00-CDI
Slowly but steady Getting there
Good progress Louis.
Tomorrow I'm lecturing 8hours on C# windows programming and Saturday at work for the award ceremony... :(
So week-end will be short but next week seems clearer ;)
Thanks Olivier,
QuoteTomorrow I'm lecturing 8hours on C# windows programming
Just for my interest, on how high level do you teach (university?)
QuoteSo week-end will be short but next week seems clearer
Ok, don't worry. These projects wont run away by them self ;D
Have Saturday a bid time for my self, so if the tester is working will connect it to see how that goes
(and connect a 3MA tacho meter just for indication rpm)
With a bid off luck my frame and swingarm for the project three bike will be ready.
In that case, I'll be busy with that to ;D
Yes I'm lecture at Master of Sciences level in a French school of engineering.
My research topics are in the field of robotics, mechatronics, image processing...
I've at home and at the school lab some stuff to emulate the rpm signal in TTL format (0-5v).
So I can test the PIC programming.
The idea is to get the rpm signal captured by the PIC and from this capture compute the spark retard.
Spark signal will be simulated by a flash led on the output.
I could check both signals rpm and spark on the double trace oscilloscope.
I could also send the data through a serial link to my PC application to save the experiment and plot the CDI curve.
I'm looking for spare a damaged TDR250 ignition to test at home.
My TZR250 2MA spare one is not easy to open as the box is fully potted.
And very reluctant to open my 2XT box...
Will try to look at your video (plugin fail last time :( )
http://www.tzr3ma.com/videos/turn-at-flywheel.wmv (http://www.tzr3ma.com/videos/turn-at-flywheel.wmv)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/videos/Ignition-tester-first-start.wmv (http://www.tzr3ma.com/videos/Ignition-tester-first-start.wmv)
QuoteYes I'm lecture at Master of Sciences level in a French school of engineering.
Ok, that good to know.
Getting teach by teacher from the Master of Sciences level school of engineering
My parent's will be proud on me :)
Sadly have a small sad back
Did not changes any wires on my ignition tester engine, but it refuses to rev any futher now.
The only thing I did was mounting the pickup.
(of course have removed it, just to see if it changes any thing. But no. pickup is not the problem)
Have made a test setup with a 12V battery and the regulator, so the device could charge a battery and not stores/damage his own stator.
It is working it charges about 14V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3TwC-Y0HR8&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3TwC-Y0HR8&feature=youtu.be)
Sadly du to low rmp can't read the tacho, (think it will be spinning about 2000/25000rpm)
Did manage to capture the in-coming and out-coming signal
In-coming
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fingang-signaal.jpg&hash=d7ddc2feeb65c8dfee5dd931f296b8bfc2b579f5)
Out-coming
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Do you guys have any idea what it could be that the electro motor is not spinning that fast any more?
-Fields??
-contact brush
Working on this problem now
Have solved the RPM problem.
It seems that the charging system was to much for the electro engine to Handel
Disconnected that system, and the RPM is on the move again.
(makes you wonder how much HP charging is costing you ???)
Still not completely satisfied.
The ypvs servomotor and (3ma) tacho still don't work correct.
Investigating what problem that could be.
Captured the RPM (ignition/tacho) signal (with side standard out)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fignition-signal.jpg&hash=5a0203a42f281adc50ab90e6a1e2a36eadcd000e)
Normal RPM signal (Capacitor Discharging?)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fign-signal.jpg&hash=8e7c3fa5dfb6a4bb11c2df917c3e9e82e67e659a)
The charging system make some forces to appear on the rotor (magnetic field + induction current...).
On road bike the maximum speed with light on is lower than with lights off :D.
You can try to replace the battery by a big capacitor (Battery eliminator).
This will give a smoother 12V on your loom and the tacho will work properly and the YPVS too (but not cleaning cycles).
So with the battery you could test the YPVS signals (3 signals) during cleaning cycle and the TPS signal.
With the capacitor you could test the ignition signals :
- signal coming from the pickup (input for the IC)
- signal driving the capacitor discharge (output for the IC)
Quote from: Louis on November 16, 2013, 01:43:44 PM
Did manage to capture the in-coming and out-coming signal
In-coming
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fingang-signaal.jpg&hash=d7ddc2feeb65c8dfee5dd931f296b8bfc2b579f5)
Is the signal taken on the IC pin ?
It looks like a normal 5V signal with falling to 0V when the pickup signal is detected.
Can you check with several RPM position 2000 / 3000 / 6000 if low period is
- constant (not affected by RPM changes)
- variable (getting smaller with the increase of RPM)
Will not be surprised if the signal is affected by RPM variations
So the new IC will have to be configured to detect falling edge.
Quote from: Louis on November 16, 2013, 01:43:44 PM
Out-coming
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fuitgang-signaal.jpg&hash=0fd41d2bf4aca849db20ad069ecab3c4875b4c95)
Is the signal taken on the IC pin ?
It looks like a normal 5V signal with falling to 0V when the IC wants to drive the spark.
Can you check with several RPM position 2000 / 3000 / 6000 if low period is
- constant (not affected by RPM changes)
- variable (getting smaller with the increase of RPM)
So the new IC should set this pin to 5V and drop to 0V for a while to drive the spark.
Will not be surprised if the signal is
not affected by RPM variations
Can your oscilloscope show the both signal on the same display (twin trace)?
Little computation before going to bed...
On your first graphic
Tpickup = 24 ms
Fpickup = 41.66 Hz
Fengine = Fpickup / 2 = 20.83 Hz
RPMengine = Fengine * 60 = 1250 rpm
Your bike is at idle ;D
Hello Olivier,
Specially for you ;D
IC (pin 13) in coming signal
http://youtu.be/Skp20UTi59Q
IC (pin 22) out going signal
http://youtu.be/0WZeJgiqrXc
RPM signal (measured at the orange wire)
http://youtu.be/D0Pe_Xm5Pew
QuoteCan your oscilloscope show the both signal on the same display (twin trace)?
No, sadly its a one channel oscilloscope :-[
But, think I can get one from work if its needed.
Quote from: Louis on November 17, 2013, 12:50:15 PM
IC (pin 13) in coming signal
http://youtu.be/Skp20UTi59Q
OK on pin 13 signal is 5v and detection have to be done on falling edge
Quote from: Louis on November 17, 2013, 12:50:15 PM
IC (pin 22) out going signal
http://youtu.be/0WZeJgiqrXc
OK on pin 22 signal is 5v and ignition firing have to be done on falling edge
Quote from: Louis on November 17, 2013, 12:50:15 PM
RPM signal (measured at the orange wire)
http://youtu.be/D0Pe_Xm5Pew
Orange wire is normally on 2MA-1KT-3MA a signal with negative pulses (-200v).
These pulses are due to the capacitor discharge.
I'll update my pin diagram and past it here.
We need to be sure which pin 13 or 22 is the input.
Louis you can test on your bench your CDI without the IC so you 'll only have the input signal.
QuoteWe need to be sure which pin 13 or 22 is the input.
Louis you can test on your bench your CDI without the IC so you 'll only have the input signal.
I just did, and have to say. Had it wrong :-[
Pin 13 is OUT going signal
Pin 22 is
IN going signal.
Measured it on the CDI where the IC is removed, Could only measure a signal on pin 22 :)
So my schematic is OK ?
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1226.0;attach=4045;image)
Planning to use the 18F2550 for the new IC
NAME -> PIC Pin <=> OEM IC
// Power
VDD (5V) -> Pin 20 <=> Pin 42
VSS (0V) -> PIN 19 <=> Pin 21
// Analogic To Digital
ADC_YPVS -> AN0 <=> Pin 36
ADC_TPS -> AN1 <=> Pin 35
ADC_SPEED -> AN2 <=> Pin 33
// Logical Outputs
BLINK_LED -> RA5 (blinking led to see that PIC is running)
YPVS_OPEN -> RA3 <=> Pin 5 or 6
YPVS_CLOSE -> RA4 <=> Pin 5 or 6
AIR_JET1 -> RB4 <=> Pin 27 or 26
AIR_JET2 -> RB5 <=> Pin 27 or 26
IGNITION -> RC0 <=> Pin 22
// Interrupt
PICKUP -> RB0 <=> Pin 13
Hi Olivier,
Looks good to me :)
Think leaf pin 23 24 25 loose
Use pin 18 signal fore setting the PIC program back to his starting point if engine has stopped??
How can I visualize it for my self?
Will solder a socked on the original location off the IC.
The 18F2550 Ic will be placed on a small circuit board, that circuitboard has the outside pin's location the same as original IC
On that small circuitboard signal's will be routed to the pin numbers for the 18F2550
Perhaps a communication line is build on the small circuit board to??
like this?(example)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.digikey.com%2FPhotos%2FDLP%2520Design%2520Inc%2FDLP-HS-FPGA2.jpg&hash=f0251b11cc5b7bf12ea6ac6a0448188183c4b720)
Do I see it all right like that
Louis,
See the picture below.
In red what is needed to send the program to the PIC (upload the firmware).
In green what is needed to run the new CDI IC.
The new IC board only need the wires soldered around the IC to provide the power and the signals from the Yamaha CDI.
We could setup some little free space to be able to add some resistor / capacitor in case of noise on the input signals... or to protect the PIC from over loads.
Communication with PC for configuration will be done using other boards and using a 4 wires loom from the PIC (5V, 0V, Receive, Transmit)
- Serial DB9 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-MAX3232-RS232-Serial-Port-To-TTL-Converter-Module-DB9-Connector-With-Cables-/251299087033?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item3a8297c2b9 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-MAX3232-RS232-Serial-Port-To-TTL-Converter-Module-DB9-Connector-With-Cables-/251299087033?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item3a8297c2b9)
- Serial USB http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Red-L2303HX-USB-to-TTL-Auto-Converter-Module-PL2303-Adapter-For-Arduino-4p-Cable-/390612486394?_trksid=p2047675.l4066 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Red-L2303HX-USB-to-TTL-Auto-Converter-Module-PL2303-Adapter-For-Arduino-4p-Cable-/390612486394?_trksid=p2047675.l4066)
- Serial Bluetooth http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-6V-Wireless-serial-port-bluetooth-module-transceiver-RF-RS232-TTL-Backplane-/251094371828?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3a76640df4 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-6V-Wireless-serial-port-bluetooth-module-transceiver-RF-RS232-TTL-Backplane-/251094371828?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3a76640df4)
I'll check again what is the most convenient to build the board yourself.
We can find little PIC18F2550 board in kit form.
At the end, the board below seems very good but you need to buy a 18F2550 and a 20MHz clock to get all the hardware needed.
HARDWARE :
Board at 10US$ including a PIC16F886 to start with
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iCP23-iBoard-Tiny-x28-Microchip-28pin-PIC16F886-IO-Board-Size-7cm-X-2-3cm-/281073235339?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417145358b (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iCP23-iBoard-Tiny-x28-Microchip-28pin-PIC16F886-IO-Board-Size-7cm-X-2-3cm-/281073235339?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417145358b)
Better PIC 18F2550 at 6.5US$ (or 18F2553)
http://www.piccircuit.com/shop/pic-microcontroller/79-pic18f2550.html (http://www.piccircuit.com/shop/pic-microcontroller/79-pic18f2550.html)
Cristal 20Mhz at 1.5US$ (to get maximum speed and later maybe USB connection)
http://www.rkonlinestore.co.uk/20mhz-3-pin-ceramic-resonator-pack-of-4-526-p.asp (http://www.rkonlinestore.co.uk/20mhz-3-pin-ceramic-resonator-pack-of-4-526-p.asp)
To build 4 PIC board from scratch...
Shipped to Netherlands ::)
Ah, Think I understand you now.
QuoteThe new IC board only need the wires soldered around the IC to provide the power and the signals from the Yamaha CDI
This IC/board we making our self, Its routes the in coming and out coming signals to our new PIC.
(It will be placed permanently on the 3MA-CDI)
If we want to program our PIC we take it out his socket and place it in a external board where we can program it.
Thought the replacement IC/board had it all
The new Programmable IC on it, and the programming connector on it
Good that i understand you now :)
Still a bid confused.
You want to use the the 18F2550 for the new IC ???
The 18F2550 IC is used on this complete board, including the programming connection.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.piccircuit.com%2Fshop%2F556-large%2Ficp12-usbstick-pic18f2550-io-board.jpg&hash=7786488b24e8429fd30af4069849aaca430eea8b)
http://www.piccircuit.com/shop/pic-dev-board/119-icp12-usbstick-pic18f2550-io-board.html
Can we not place this whole board on the CDI and connect the signals we need??
Yes Louis,
This board look nice and seems to have all we need.
I've to check the diagram to see if all the input/output pins we are looking for are available on the connector.
We could have
- the serial link for PC communication (RC6 and RC7 pins) and later the USB communication.
- the ICSP connector for onboard programming
Quotethe serial link for PC communication (RC6 and RC7 pins) and later the USB communication.
Why use the USB connection later? (When its already there)
Will it be difficult to program the IC, with the use off the USB connector?
Is it easier to use the serial link for PC communication (pin RC6 and RC7) to program it?
I thought, if this Board is usable.
Connect with small wires the signals to the right location on the PIC board (directly from the pats, or from the socket)
Use a USB extension cable, plug it in the laptop, and start programming (tell it what it needs to do)
Ones it is working correct, glue it on place :) (example on the original IC location)
(This thought off me will probably be a bid to easy, keep in mind I'm not a electronica specialist) ::)
Cheers
When you think about any micro-controller (not only PIC) there is 2 things about programming.
Programing the PIC:
This is downloading the firmware of the task the micro-controller will do when he boots.
There is 2 ways to download the program into the PIC :
- use an external programmer using the ICSP connector with the right software
- use a bootloader (small firmware in the PIC) which will collect the program
The use of a bootloader could make difficult the use of interrupt functions.
Programming the CDI:
This is downloading into the ROM of the PIC, the new data for the CDI firmware:
- YPVS operating RPM min and max
- the CDI curve data
- the RPM for air jet 1 and 2
- ...
This could be done through:
- the serial port communication (RC6-RC7 pins) and using an adapter (DB9 / USB / Bluetooth...)
- the USB interface of the PIC (RC5-RC6 pins) and the HID standard.
I've done many testing using serial port so I'm confident that first version will work that way.
I could also develop the Windows based software to send new parameters to the CDI program.
It seems that ICP12 board could be OK
Will start programming the PIC using this mapping to see if it is OK
Will check with other colleagues the use of bootloader because we'll not need a programming hardware to upgrade the PIC firmware.
Hello Olivier,
That would be great if we can get it to work :)
Meaning that with the use off a 11.80 dollar PIC board, we have a fully programmable ignition 8)
If we can make the base advance also programmable, you can use a 3MA CDI on the 2XT to.
With some great options
Let us know when you are more sure if it is usable for or projects
Cheers
I've got 3 or 4 PCI18F2550 at home and they are fully configurable so I can make different versions.
I've already reconfigured my firmware to be compatible with the ICP12 board.
I hope I can post some first results before Friday (will be away from Friday till Monday).
Here the planning :
- Test 1 : capture the YPVSPos, TPS, Speed and draw a graphic Position versus Time
- Test 2 : capture the pickup signal and draw a graphic RPM versus Time
- Test 3 : Drive the YPVS servo for the cleaning cycle when IC is powered
- Test 4 : Compute the CDI curve for a constant advance setup (for tests only) and display results on graphics.
- Test 5 :.....
You'll be posted for the results... ;)
interesting thread... :)
Quoteinteresting thread...
Thanks, if all goes well in the end off this tread we have a working project :)
Olivier,
Was totally forgotten about one signal.
The black/white wire (the ignition kill switch)
Quickly measured if the signal is coming at the IC, but can't find any signal on the IC that changed when put mass on the black/white wire
Will investigate that further.
What I did noticed is when I give it mass, the rpm signal is a flat line.
Also noticed when giving it a mass, my testing machine starts to break (almost to a stop)
Perhaps it is short cutting something on the circuit board, that makes the magnetic fields different at the stator???
And starts to break???
Good luck with capturing the signals :)
Cheers
Maybe the kill signal is just killing the signal going out from pin 13.
Check without the IC if the kill signal stops the pickup signal on pin 22.
More tomorrow...
Windows software is almost ready... then PIC firmware this evening...
As a teaser...
Following with great interest Louis and Olivier :) I did some signal processing back in my student days so it's pretty cool seeing what you guys are doing. 8)
What is the plan to attach the PIC to the CDI unit to make it easy to reprogram?
Next should be the 3xv ;) ;) With 3xv sugo CDI's going for £400 this would be a very cool alternative.. :)
Plan is to un solder the IC from the OEM CDI board and replace it by a PIC with our firmware to tune:
- YPVS Motor
- CDI curve
- Air Jet
- use of TPS
- ....
QuoteFollowing with great interest Louis and Olivier
Thanks
QuoteNext should be the 3xv With 3xv sugo CDI's going for £400 this would be a very cool alternative..
Perhaps who knows ;D, (from the picture mbsteve posted it looks like the 3XV is a bid more complicated)
But the IC might be the same used in the 3MA models ;)
Olivier,
That looks impressive :), but from this point can't tell you what the lines do ;D
Seeing the RPM scale and 5V scale agent's time???
Have measured the happening when puling the kill swish to mass.
Both pin 22 and 13 goes ''flat line''
Tried to find a signal on the 3MA-CDI (who has the IC removed), couldn't find any thing.
Have tried to follow the route the kill swish wire is making
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ficroute_zpse5edb2fa.jpg&hash=62d3d9988043035167211a1f4e80589d18b5ad13)
Signal/wire is coming from the red dot on top off picture
-Red is the route on the back of the board
-blue is the rout on top off the board
-yellow are the connections of the big capacitor
-The space between them are filled with component's (one way diode's, resistors)
From what I can see, it looks like it puling the Big capacitor to mass (so no ignition signal will be given)
A bid strange is that the incoming pickup signal is down to then.
Perhaps something on the board is doing that on the moment kill swish is lying at Mass
I've done some testing :
- YPSV Position OK
- TPS Position OK
- Speed Position OK (we do not need but it works / could be use for MAP sensor or vacuum sensor)
- Blinking Led OK
- Serial Link communication OK (wired and bluetooth)
- RPM Capture OK BUT...
When I capture the RPM signal it makes the serial link noisy so I can't get the graph to work properly.
I'll investigate why tomorrow evening and try to plot some curves.
I'll also look how to store the CDI curve into the eeprom.
Louis, I'll check your kill switch investigation later too...
Going to bed... ;)
Hello Olivier,
It looks like your almost there :)
Can't help you with this programming/testing, so it all lies in your hands right now.
Measured one thing for you today. (I don't know if it is software or hardware in the PIC)
The YPVS position sensor gives 2.20V (on pin 36) when its in his rest/start position (fully open in this case)
Would be nice if we plug it in the YPVS has the same position as OEM
Also the IC socket cam in today, will try to solder it :)
Dont forget to Tell me when I can order a couple off these 8)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1-ps.googleusercontent.com%2Fh%2Fwww.piccircuit.com%2Fshop%2F556-large%2F300x300xicp12-usbstick-pic18f2550-io-board.jpg.pagespeed.ic.5B_4zCZOdp.jpg&hash=588e6f0829266cbb7af81ef9dcee24533ca4b6b3)
Cheers
Hi Louis,
Some news...
Some progress on testing tonight... Everything went OK but still some wrong data some times.
Need to upgrade my software control on the PC to avoid crashes when the data are NAN (Not A Number !!!).
Advance is not yet computed on the PIC so it is set to constant value 35°.
You can see in the textbox the data send from the CDI.
In bonus... a CDI curve editor to create the curve.
Still some coding to made but progress is good.
Hello Olivier,
Like the Ignition program curve software, easy and with nice steps off 500rpm.
Will the YPVS program curve software be the same as the ignition? (steps off 500rpm)
I managed to solder the IC socket onto the CDI circuit board :)
First it was a bid experimental for me (never solder a socket on a circuit board) but later points went great.
Until now, this CDI is a great learning experiment. Now i know how to do the next one correct
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ficinsocket_zps071eab53.jpg&hash=9a48b84263247d1eb4d431bf167c889f3e15cc5b)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ficsocket_zps4420d9c7.jpg&hash=1cf7873668d8dd255e7d795d4eec1c56fbda38b2)
Sadly I lost the pats off pin33 and pin41 (they where already quit loose)
-pin33 is one off airjet solenoids
-pin41 is a IC signal (Not that in portend)
Its possible to reroute the PIN33 connection to let it function right.
If we have this experimental cdi working. (first one)
When I'm starting on the second one, will be making pictures off every step.
Think that will be great info.
For the pin 33, you can solder a little wire from IC socket to the first pad on the board which was directly linked with the pin 33.
Cheers.
Hello Olivier,
QuoteFor the pin 33, you can solder a little wire from IC socket to the first pad on the board which was directly linked with the pin 33.
Yes, I know :)
What I mend with this:
QuoteIts possible to reroute the PIN33 connection to let it function right.
Is, that for the moment I leaf it like this (on the test CDI)
But if needed, will solder a wire.
(On the Marlboro bike I don't use the airjets)
Of course on the second CDI, all will be connected right.
(The one that will go into the books) ;)
3MA-10 CDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIA7gGXAejg
you chaps are just too bloody clever
that is amazing to simulate a motor for us dumb asses to see where this is going
well done
Hello Steve,
That is Mr. Lau from Japan :)
I have contact with him for about a year. (mostly because he write English)
He makes his own exhausts to.
Currently he is doing some research/testing 3MA CDI's
A link to one off his sites (Sadly only Japanese)
http://www.geocities.jp/toshi_fj1200/3ma/3ma.html
Hello Paul,
Quotethat is amazing to simulate a motor for us dumb asses to see where this is going
There are no ''dumb asses'' ;D
Only one idiot who already spent more money at equipment/tools trying to read out a 3MA CDI for making it programmable, then the cost off a free programmable ignition it self :'(
Lets just say ''a hobby cost you money'' ::)
Cheers
Quote from: Louis on November 27, 2013, 11:01:32 PM
Hello Steve,
That is Mr. Lau from Japan :)
I have contact with him for about a year. (mostly because he write English)
He makes his own exhausts to.
Currently he is doing some research/testing 3MA CDI's
A link to one off his sites (Sadly only Japanese)
http://www.geocities.jp/toshi_fj1200/3ma/3ma.html
Hey Louis, that is where I found the video. My wife says Mr. Lau has horible Japanese writing skills as she was having a hard time translating some things for me.
QuoteMy wife says Mr. Lau has horible Japanese writing skills as she was having a hard time translating some things for me.
Can't read Japanese, (So can't judge him on that) when reading his blog (and or) page I use Google translate.
This sometimes gives funny readings ;D
When we have contact over mail we write in English witch I can follow.
But have to say, his reactions are mostly short
(Seems there are not many Japanese who can speak/read English)
Waiting for the parts took some time. But the ICP12 came in :)
Now only need to wire it up, and she should be ready to go.
Its quit tiny, here some pictures to indicate size.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fboard-los-cdi.jpg&hash=38a6724ad6eed541e1b5c1a0d049fac6411da1b9)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2FCDI-board.jpg&hash=dfda3eae9473e4d0ada38d2182487fc57bdbeb41)
Olivier is busy with the development off software to run this.
If that is ready, it should give its first signals
So we are still going 8)
I've ordered a pair of ICP12 + USB programmer + USB link from them.
Not sure I'll have them for Xmas...
I'll test them ASAP.
Hello Olivier,
Quote+ USB programmer + USB link
I have only ordered the ICP12 :-[ witch I can plug into my laptop.
Should I order them to? USB (programmer + USB link)
Let me know
QuoteNot sure I'll have them for Xmas...
A little bid off breathing space could be handy for me
Ones a gain have to much projects going on ::)
For the moment, this one needs all work done before end December.
http://www.fiero.tzr3ma.com/car.html
As to new government rules, can't drive it in jan, feb.
Want to have all work done at the engine in dec., so can work at her internal this winter.
I manage to make the small board to drive the YPVS motor (the FZR400 exup motor :D).
With the PIC firmware, I'm now able to:
- drive the YPVS step by step in both directions
- do the cleaning cycle.
I've also test these functions with my PC app.
I'll post pictures and videos tomorrow.
That is good news Olivier.
Great that you have the PV working.
I was also playing with the ICP12, but with me nothing happens ::)
Cheers
I went away for Xmas holiday before my order arrives :(
I'll find then back home in January.
I'll do some testing and I'll share with you.
Last update before 2014...
Here the new CDI-PC application with a new testing zone:
- button M = CDI send the data
- button S = CDI stop sending
- button AirJet 1 and 2 = toggle the airjet line
- button YPVS Open = YPVS Motor do an open step for the valve
- button YPVS Close = YPVS Motor do a close step for the valve
- button YPVS Cycle = YPVS Motor do a cleaning cycle like the YAMAHA box (open max min max)
Data come back from the CDI board and draw on the chart.
At the end some MP4 videos (download the files before viewing)...
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frd500lc.free.fr%2Fforum%2FCDI-Project%2FCDI-PC_02.jpg&hash=d64b7c105f003c6fa4fe7217e9cb9f87921e8319)
Experimental setup
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frd500lc.free.fr%2Fforum%2FCDI-Project%2FExp-Setup_02.jpg&hash=1c27cb33db90b1fd0575f23c36c10dfec5065154)
FZR400RR exup motor same wiring color than the RZ500 :D
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frd500lc.free.fr%2Fforum%2FCDI-Project%2FFZR400RR-Exup_02.jpg&hash=8febceb5e10817c40e6537bdd1170c78b264a478)
Videos
http://rd500lc.free.fr/forum/CDI-Project/CDI-Video_01.mp4 (http://rd500lc.free.fr/forum/CDI-Project/CDI-Video_01.mp4)
http://rd500lc.free.fr/forum/CDI-Project/CDI-Video_03.mp4 (http://rd500lc.free.fr/forum/CDI-Project/CDI-Video_03.mp4)
Olivierrrrrrrr that is fantastic.
Really like the testing possibility for the ypvs motor. (easy in control)
Also noticed possibilities for more options ;) (TPS, Speed)
I'm a bid used to the ignitech layout.
How do I set a pv/ignition curve on your software?
(Normally) I choose rpm scale agents opening percent's scale
For the Ignition curve
rpm scale agents advance scale
The control for the airjets, would that also be in a curve setting possibility?
Ones we have this all working, think it will be copied allot as its universal
All Yamaha 2ma's, 2xt's,, tdr's 3ma's could work with it 8)
Great progress
Back home.
Parcel received from PICCIRCUIT... testing all the parts
Maybe you could look at this (made nearby you in NL)
http://www.edutechsoft.nl/TestiCP12.html (http://www.edutechsoft.nl/TestiCP12.html)
Mainboard to test ICP12
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edutechsoft.nl%2FiCP12%2FDMB%2520USB%2520Interface%252001.jpg&hash=6ee67cf6e7eaaaeff82a2966b470dc52a23e3602)
Will post back my testing in the new hardware.
My 2 ICP12 boards will be:
- one kept stock to test the software downloaded from seller
- one modified to make the CDI CPU
Hello Olivier,
Ok have downloaded the program to :)
It is connected, but that is it.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FFiero%2Fipc12_zpsb2edb8e7.jpg&hash=ee55f00520576706c2386c7a8321b69ebbc29461)
Don't have any software to put on it. ;D
Will wait until you got some.
Cheers
I'll do some testing and post some tutorials ;D
Back on business again after some computer upgrades (not yet finished).
Manage to work while I was helping students on their projects.
I've done a PC software to help testing the CDI firmware.
PC communicates with an arduino board to emulate the pickup signal from 500rpm to 13000rpm
The signal from Aduino board is send to the CDI board using a little cable.
Now I can focus on capturing the signal with the PIC.
Next step (tomorrow while waiting for questions from students ;D )
- Capturing the time between two consecutive rising edges of the pickup signal
- Write the data to the PC using the serial link
- Computing the RPM from signal period
- Compare the RPM received from PIC to the one send to Arduino
A little update of my progress :
- Capturing the time between two consecutive rising edges of the pickup signal DONE
- Write the data to the PC using the serial link DONE
- Computing the RPM from signal period DONE
- Compare the RPM received from PIC to the one send to Arduino DONE
Manage to find a nice gauge control for the application ;)
Next steps:
- Compute YPVS position from RPM value
- Compute Ignition retard from RPM value
- ...
That is looking great Olivier.
Have a feeling we are getting close.
I had orders from my superior to move my lab outside the living room ::). (ehe she didn't mentioned Lab was more like cr....) :-\
Anyhow, have made some room in my workshop so it could stand permanently. Will fill it more with some tools and small stuff etc.
But finally have my own little Electronics corner :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fnieuweplaats_zps8b017714.jpg&hash=eb2486db88cf36c186d7bb02a3497aa2c87bded2)
Will connect everything this Saturday so will have my lab back 8)
Waiting on your orders now Olivier
Cheers
OK so little progress today...
Manage to setup the PIC program to drive the ignition signal.
Ignition signal is HIGH in normal state and set to LOW for 1mS.
On pictures below, yellow signal is the captured pickup signal and the blue the ignition one.
Ignition is fired after a constant delay from the rising edge (and the falling edge).
First picture could be a 3XV CDI each rising edge of the pickup fires the ignition (same frequency)
The two others are 3MA or 2MA CDI with waisted spark (two lobes) so the rising and the falling edges of the yellow signal fire the ignition. Blue signal frequency is the double of yellow signal.
Next step next week as I going snowboarding for a 4 days weekend with family ;D
So after connecting everything up, one problem needs to be solved first.
The charging system was asking to much from my electro motor. It was holding the revs back.
Have tried different setups (big battery, battery external charged, compensator, etc) it did not work.
It kept charging, witch holds the rpm down.
Drastic action was needed, Removed all wires from the coils/spools
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fbegin-wikkeling-weghalen.jpg&hash=a35e513b5acfb932404f3cf9a4f88b9294dfc7e9)
So finally only the HV coils had there wires :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fwikkelingen-weg.jpg&hash=af0b1d7ce91847f72f488230ceda16f20f9f5846)
It certainly worked, but it might be not good enough :(
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As I found out that the tacho meter used is one coming from a tzr125 4dl
Have turned it at the back to get a logical rpm reading, but its not accurate.
Don't know how 10000rpm sounds on a electromotor with this setup.
Will try to get a cheap digital rpm meter, with should give a better reading
Here you have the new setup, now with working coil and plug to measure timing with the use off a scope
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Solved one thing today ;D
(sadly) The 3MA-00 CDI has only four stored ignition curves.
Had hoped there could be room for one more, but no it does not have it.
Here you have a movie with steady rpm, and me moving the TPS sensor.
You can see clearly, it has four curves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7LPcapuQU&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7LPcapuQU&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA)
Next steps:
- find a usable rpm reader.
- set base advange on 19 degrees
- measure the ignition curves
Hi Louis & Olivier
impressive progress you guys.
Does that motor stay where it is at 10,000RPM ?
Perhaps you could bolt it down vertically using the mounting brackets?
Awesome work guys! I did some signal processing back in my uni days so this i find interesting...wish we decoded CDI's back then for assignments! ;D
thanks guys :D
Louis, I've got the tacho electonics drawing at home or maybe on the web somewhere with how to adapt 3XV (non waisted spark) to 3MA.
Your readings should be twice the real ones.
R3 is 12KOhms for the 3MA and 10kOhms for the 3XV
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Thanks guys appreciate it. :)
Olivier.
Have noticed the rear adjustable resistance, have already turn ad it. (tuning the tacho ;D)
But I had no reference to set it correct, only on sound that is not good enough :(
Today had a idea witch might work, was walking around with it for the whole day.
So tonight after evening meal, I ran to my work shop.
It was like this:
I let the ignition machine run at a certain rpm, only to power the cdi (high voltage coils)
Disconnected the pickup, and let my function generator put a 100Hz on pin 22 (incoming pickup signal)
Well that worked, now I could adjust the tacho to 6000rpm
(100Hz should be around 6000rpm)
Hopefully did it right, Olivier let me know if not :o
Here you have my calibration result movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usoARPAJPiM
I also discovered that my rpm controller (phase movement) for the testing machine is holding power back when turned at 100 procent.
(perhaps it has to do with the design off the controller)
With the controller, Max rpm the electromotor could make was around 8000rpm (on the now calibrated tacho)
When plugged directly on the net power (220v) it rotated to 9500rpm
(need to ''tuning the electro motor'' for about 1500rpm more ;D ;D)
Next thing to do is making a calibration point to set the 19 degrees bace advange and make a degrees setting on the flywheel.
Then I should be able to get some data from the ignition curves stored in the IC.
Will give it a try this weekend.
What a hobby whe have
As always after good news comes bad news :-[
I have miss understood Oliviers feedback. Instead of the adjustable resistance he mend R3 (12KOhms)
Thought about it today, the calibration idea was not that bad, but was forgotten the two lobs on the flywheel.
(Measured values divided by two)
Have found a working 3MA tacho, and the results where disappointing for me.
A picture says more then a 1000 words
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Here you have the ignition tester at full rpm. Sadly only 45000rpm (it sounds like a lot more)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtw_WLJm-IA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA
So this machine will be good for powering the 3MA-00 cdi's for testing and/or development
But it will not have the power to read out the ignition curves
More to come
Quote from: Louis on February 25, 2014, 10:37:27 PM
It was like this:
I let the ignition machine run at a certain rpm, only to power the cdi (high voltage coils)
Disconnected the pickup, and let my function generator put a 100Hz on pin 22 (incoming pickup signal)
Well that worked, now I could adjust the tacho to 6000rpm
(100Hz should be around 6000rpm)
Hopefully did it right, Olivier let me know if not :o
Remember that 3MA like 2MA are 2 lobes flywheel... (waisted sparks)
One spark every 180°.
6000rpm <=> 100Hz frequency BUT 200Hz for the pickup signal and the ignition signal.
To convert a 3XC or 4DL tacho to 3MA or 2MA you need to change the R3 resistor and then adjust the variable resistor to calibrate the tacho.
3000rpm -> signal frequency 100Hz
6000rpm -> signal frequency 200Hz
12000rpm -> signal frequency 400Hz
I could make an Arduino based signal generator with a PC program.
Picture to follow :D
The tachometer has to be calibrated at double frequency.
In the picture
-> in RED Arduino GUI for signal generator
-> in GREEN PIC GUI from the CDI processor
QuoteRemember that 3MA like 2MA are 2 lobes flywheel... (waisted sparks)
One spark every 180°.
Yes I remember ;D. My thoughts drifted away when putting a 100 Hz signal on pin 22 to calibrate the (4dl) tacho on that.
But after walking around with it, it became clear this was not correct. (As one rotation would give two pulses to the IC.)
Have found working 3ma tach and it all becomes clear.
QuoteI could make an Arduino based signal generator with a PC program.
Picture to follow
This could be handy by reading out the pv opening cycles :)
Is this easy to make?, or are the electronic parts expensive?
The idea behind my testing machine was to use a scope and read/write the ignition curves that where stored on the IC.
But now with a Max off 4500rpm this will not be the case.
So for now it will be used for generating the power needed to supply the 00 and 01 cdi's
In order to get the right signals to measure.
Will measure the TPS sensor. When exactly it jumps to another curve.
Could be handy when you want to setup the TPs correctly.
(So it will pick the right curve with the right throttle position)
For the easy electronic, you only need buy an arduino uno board + USB cable if you don't have one.
Some little wire to jump from the arduino board to other electronics...
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardUno (http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardUno)
20€ + VAT on the arduino shop http://store.arduino.cc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=195 (http://store.arduino.cc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=195)
Maybe you could find some in Netherlands directly.
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I'll do the Arduino code and PC program too.
See below the wiring
- from Arduino output (pickup signal) Yellow wire to CDI input
- green is Ground level (need to be the same on both electronics)
Quote
I'll do the Arduino code and PC program too.
See below the wiring
- from Arduino output (pickup signal) Yellow wire to CDI input
- green is Ground level (need to be the same on both electronics)
You do that also :o
Electronica seems to be your thing :)
Have found something that may be interesting, it could have a influence if the Arduino will work on this setup or not.
Was not giving up that easily ???, have tried something else tonight. But now it is getting to complicated.
The idea was:
Let the ignition tester generate the high voltage needed to power up the cdi
Use the external adjustable electro motor with pickup to generate the pulse needed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8-gBRk4_eA
This setup works half.
It seems that the high voltage given by the ignition tester walks hand in hand with the pickup signal
Meaning a low( high voltage) from the tester with a high rpm from the phuls motor the cdi can't control.
Same for a low rpm (from pulse motor) will not work correct with a high rpm from the ignition tester.
Hope you can follow me on this :-\
Think in short terms:
The high voltage coils (given voltage to the cdi) needs to be in a certain rpm range to work with the pickup frequency
(perhaps the charging time for the capacitor will be to short from a high phuls rpm with with a low voltage rpm)
Conclusion: if I wanted to use my setup to read out the ignition curve. Will need a much more powerful engine that can produce the rpm needed to pull through the resistance the high voltage coils are given.
That's way it is easy to work with a 3ma-10 cdi as it does not need a high voltage circuit to work. 12V is all it needs
Ok little progress on my side with the iCP12 board.
Been able to monitor the simulated pickup signal made by the arduino board.
But not yet a firmware to test on Louis setup >:(
A bit of progress today... ;D
Been able to :
- upload from the USB a new firmware : blinking leds so bootloader is working with my code
- upload a firmware which communicates with the PC using USB
Hey Olivier,
That is good news, (if I'm right) this means that your program should run on the ipc12
Another step towards victory :)
Will try to capture the pickup signal on the IPC12 this weekend.
Yes Louis.....
Next firmware will be to test YPVS valve cycles for cleaning when a iCP12 pin is set to 5V and stops cleaning when set to 0V.
For this your setup will need to have
- the 12V with the battery or PC power supply
- 3 wires for the YPVS
- 1 wire for the ground 0V
- 1 wire for the VCC 5V
I'll do the test with my FZR400R exup servomotor and my own motor driver board too.
Quote from: Louis on February 27, 2014, 11:13:51 PM
Think in short terms:
The high voltage coils (given voltage to the cdi) needs to be in a certain rpm range to work with the pickup frequency
(perhaps the charging time for the capacitor will be to short from a high phuls rpm with with a low voltage rpm)
Conclusion: if I wanted to use my setup to read out the ignition curve. Will need a much more powerful engine that can produce the rpm needed to pull through the resistance the high voltage coils are given.
That's way it is easy to work with a 3ma-10 cdi as it does not need a high voltage circuit to work. 12V is all it needs
Do you use a 12V power supply or Battery ?
From memory, the HT coil in the stator are only there for charging the capacitor in the CDI.
So effectively, the rpm of the rotor will give a power associated with the energy demand of the capacitor.
You could try :
- a 12V supply (battery)
- spin the rotor with the 220v motor
- generate the pickup signal with your dremel setup.
Give feedback on this.
QuoteYou could try :
- a 12V supply (battery)
- spin the rotor with the 220v motor
- generate the pickup signal with your dremel setup.
That is exactly what I have been doing.
-12V external power supply (power station)
-spinning testing machine to generate the ht voltage needed to power the cdi
-external motor with gives the pickup signal.
Situation 1
I let my ignition tester rotate 4500rpm witch generate a certain voltage to the CDI
If i let my pickup signal motor rotate high rpm, 12000rpm and above the tacho is sweeping and the sound off the plug is different.
Situation 2
I let my ignition tester rotate 4500rpm.
Drop my pickup signal motor below 4500rpm the tacho is sweeping/vibrating and also the sound off the plug is different.
Situation 3
I let my ignition tester run 1500rpm.
Push the pickup signal motor to high rpm, same problem/sound
I thought that it has something to do with the time the capacitor is charging and discharging.
Can image that a low charge coming from the ht coils with a high rpm from the pickup signal.
The capacitor has a hart time to give the right voltage/power to the plug
But can have it wrong of course
Hope this make sense to you
do you still have the pickup connected to the CDI? if so it could be that the superimposed pickup signal is out of synch with what the CDI is expecting and it is trying to fire more than once on that plug maybe?
Hello Jools,
Quotedo you still have the pickup connected to the CDI?
Don't know exactly what you mean :-[
You mean that the CDI could have another possibility off measuring the rpm?
(don't know if the HT coils give a certain pulls that is translated on the CDI to some kind off rpm)
I have the pickup signal coming from a separated source (external motor)
So deferentially the don't run synch.
Still think that the high rpm pickup signal is trying to get more sparks from the capacitor then it could give.
(When the capacitor is charged with a low rpm)
But this would just weaken the sparks because the capacitor can't charge it fully for the next spark.
(getting back on the charging time)
Will try to get some values on the ICP12 this weekend, although need to make some parts ready to for the powder coater ::)
what I meant was do you have all the wires from the stator plugs connected to the CDI ?
I know this is a 3ma, I'm only familiar with the 3xv at the moment, but there would normally be 3 white wires for the power which go to the regulator returning a red and Black wire which is your 12v feed. the ignition pickup wires are white/green or white/black or whatever colour is used, and these trigger wires would normally go to the CDI.
What I was suggesting is that if these trigger wires are connected to the CDI and you are also using a slave trigger signal there could be a problem if they are not synchronised ie you have the flywheel spinning at 4500rpm but your slave trigger set at a different frequency?
Not having a wiring diagram to look at doesn't help me.
Ah, now I know witch direction you want to go.
No, don't have all the wires connected. Have mentioned that I have removed the charging system (not by not connecting it but completely removed the copper wirings from the spools) this in order to let the engine rev more. (the charging system cost to much power for my electro motor to Handel)
Only the HT coils are connected to charge the cdi (capacitor) (3ma can run without a battery)
And I have a external 12V power supply to power up the rest of the cdi (ypvs, airjets etc)
Been able to drive the YPVS using the iCP12 board.
Louis can test it on his bench and no need to have the rotor moving just 12v to the CDI.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FYPVS-Test_IOControl_01.jpg&hash=74a19e856b55394cf7a9b4fb9700dd4725e70a0e)
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QuoteLouis can test it on his bench and no need to have the rotor moving just 12v to the CDI.
Then I probably need a small explanation, cause have the ypvs connected and that is it :-[
(Can i control it manually?)
Can only see the YPVS sensor move, when rpm drops/rises
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSeN_viwwl8&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSeN_viwwl8&feature=youtu.be)
Have connected quit a few thinks.
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*Black - All mass wires from IC to IPC12
*Red - YPVS sensor
*gray - TPS sensor
*Blue - YPVS motor
*yellow - YPVS motor
*purple - Pickup signal
*green - outgoing ignition signal (not connected)
Some more info here
http://www.tzr3ma.com/connecting-the-ipc12.html
Louis great results...
To drive the YPVS, you should use the IO Control application shipped with the iCP12 package.
These need to be configured as output in IO Control application
*Blue - YPVS motor
*yellow - YPVS motor
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QuoteLouis great results..
Thanks,
I see what you mean now :)
How will I be programming the iCP12 to remember that A3 and A5 are outgoing signals?
do you do that with the ''IO Control application''
Wont i hurt the running system by pushing a signal on it will the oem ic is working to?
If you want input and output at the same time on the iCP12 with the native firmware then you must use IO Control application.
To test the YPVS, you only need the power to 12V (no pickup signal).
This should be no problem for the OEM IC.
To be safe you could remove it from the socket.
I'll try to make a little video of my setup.
QuoteIf you want input and output at the same time on the iCP12 with the native firmware then you must use IO Control application.
OK, but with the new firmware (you make) it will be programmed as a outgoing signal?
QuoteTo test the YPVS, you only need the power to 12V (no pickup signal).
This should be no problem for the OEM IC.
To be safe you could remove it from the socket.
That would be a bid difficult ::) As I have soldered the wires on the CDI with has the oem IC fitted. (witch is soldered)
The CDI with the socked can be used if necessary :)
If you need, I can provide you with the values from a running engine. (Values displayed on the iCP12)
like TPS and YPVS sensor.
Pickup signal?
Perhaps you need it for your firmware?
The firmware for the CDI at the end will be :
Type -> OEM -> iCP12 -> Name in the PIC firmware
Input -> Pin 35 -> AN0 -> ADC_YPVS
Input -> Pin 36 -> AN1 -> ADC_TPS
Input -> Pin 33 -> AN2 -> ADC_SPEED
Output -> Pin -> RB5 -> BLINK_LED (could be RB4 the red led on iCP12)
Output -> Pin 5 or 6 -> RA3 -> YPVS_OPEN (could be swapped in the firmware)
Output -> Pin 5 or 6 -> RA5 -> YPVS_CLOSE (could be swapped in the firmware)
Output -> Pin 27 or 26 -> RC1 -> AIR_JET1 (could be swapped in the firmware)
Output -> Pin 27 or 26 -> RC2 -> AIR_JET2 (could be swapped in the firmware)
Output -> Pin 22 -> RC0 -> IGNITION
Input -> Pin 13 -> RB0 -> PICKUP
I though you where doing your test on the CDI with the IC socket :o
The OEM values will be useful for the first testing but at the end all will be tunable :D
Here a little video (download the file)
http://rd500lc.free.fr/forum/CDI-Project/YPVS-Test_IOControl.mp4 (http://rd500lc.free.fr/forum/CDI-Project/YPVS-Test_IOControl.mp4)
QuoteI though you where doing your test on the CDI with the IC socket
Yes, that was the planning ;D. But I had this one all connected :)
It was just a matter of flipping it over, and tack the wires on it.
Let me know if you need a certain value.
Will order a another iCP for development
On your setup can you connect the iCP12 to IC pins
Pin 22 -> AN1 -> IGNITION
Pin 13 -> AN2 -> PICKUP
Using SmartDAQ, configure AN1 and AN2 as Analog capture the graph at idle 1500rpm.
I want to have a screen capture to see how are the OEM signals.
OK I will do that today :)
But reading some parts over small details need to change ;)
Pin 13 is outgoing signal (ignition)
Pin 22 is incoming signal (pickup)
Pin 36 is YPVS sensor
Pin 35 is TPS sensor
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Well here you have
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Perhaps this one is better :)
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Louis
Can you send a CDI curve to include in the firmware for first testing?
Advance degree every 500rpm.
Example :
500rpm | 19°
1000rpm | 19°
1500rpm | 20°
...
I could then send you a firmware to test on your bench.
Don't know if this is exactly what you mean. (Made a quick curve with steps off 500rpm)
Curve:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Ftesttabelcurve_zps0dfb169b.jpg&hash=658a35884e0b1015c1458692b2a1d420591bfe28)
Tabel:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Finstellincurve_zps8644a744.jpg&hash=3a84ba3dc8c6cd96902c03975da2691a7f68c6c9)
This is a curve witch I like to try ones the cdi is working.
All testing will be done on my road bike (Marlboro bike) Pipes peek at 10.000rpm (headvolume close to 11cc)
So like to have 14 degrees at max, drop quick after that to a 5 degrees.
28 degrees in mid rpm should give a bid more power there.
(its about the same as the 0 till 1/8 curve in the stock CDI)
Olivier,
I was making the cdi ready witch has the IC removed. (for testing the firmware)
when solved my connecting problem to the IC socket, I connected the iCP12 and to my big surprise it is already sparking ???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRHLw2zVMfE&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRHLw2zVMfE&feature=youtu.be)
Can you explain that to me ?:-|
Perhaps this helps.
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A0 is pickup
A1 is ignition signal
Looks like the iCP12 is internally giving a small pulse.
When I disconnect the iCP12 (pull the usb cable out) I have no spark.
Only when connecting the iCP12 with the usb port (not necessary to connecting the iCP12 trough com port/software) i have a spark
OK I'll make 2 firmwares to test :
- A) 19° from 500rpm to 12000rpm
- B) your curve.
Actually I put 35° as mechanical angle.
I'll need the have the mechanical advance : angle between the lobe entering under the pickup and the TDC.
To adjust my static value.
With the firmware A, you'll be able to check the CDI advance and the error between 19° and the measured one will help to set the mechanical advance.
Is this the same as the base advange on the ignitech?
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft2.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcSuRIyNsfidESu5nm8HLdYolIAX3olR8nhh5LLFJ4TNXWc90DSF&hash=d2f9c2d336aefdf12268b834a2c402e3b9cecc70)
If so, that will be 19 degrees for the 3MA1
No.
It is the crank angle which is define by :
- the pickup location on the stator
- the woodruff key on the crank
- the TDC
If you change the key or the pickup location, this will put an offset on all the CDI curve.
I'll try to make a drawing later.
Olivier did you give it a thought way the iPC12 is working on the CDI while it has no programming to do so?
Still thinking how that can work.?
Also measured the TPS sensor settings.
What the voltage is when it jumps to another curve, could be handy to setup the original TPS sensor or perhaps for the development IC
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Ftps-volt-meten.jpg&hash=2eae715c4a47e6ac0dd080958e1fca1ae84179dd)
Curve
0 - 1/8 1.25V to 2.00V
1/8 - 1/4 2.00V to 2.75V
1/4 - 1/2 2.75V to 3.75V
1/2 - 1 3.75V to 4.50V
Great info Louis.
Will put this in my CDI folder for further development.
The 2 CDI firmwares are done but I've go a strange behavior on the iCP12 compared to my other PIC board.
- first with 19° for all the rpm range
- second with the curve you post me.
The code is exactly the same just one line changes to define the curve.
The serial link is not working properly so I'm investigate.
I'll do a test with the oscilloscope to see if it works even if the serial link is done.
QuoteThe 2 CDI firmwares are done but I've go a strange behavior on the iCP12 compared to my other PIC board
QuoteThe serial link is not working properly so I'm investigate.
Hope you solve the problem, just received the two other iCP12's I ordered. ;D
Do you have the program layout ready for the potential user?
Have we got a live view if the engine is running 8)
The idea is :
- Update the firmware using USB connector
- Link PIC -> PC using the Serial link (Bluetooth or USB...)
So while working, the PIC will push to the PC the live data :
- RPM
- Analogical data YPVS, TPS, SPEED
- Air Jets states
- CDI advance
- ...
I've to slow down the RS232 speed due to iCP12 bootloader mode.
Quote- Link PIC -> PC using the Serial link (Bluetooth or USB...)
Through Bluetooth 8), that will be a high tech solution.
Programming the CDI with your mobile phone. :)
Could be handy
I hope to Send Louis firmwares to test for the weekend....
Little late but ZIP file ready to send this evening for testing on Louis's bench.
2 firmwares :
- a flat 19° advance
- a curve designed by Louis
Mechanical angle is set to 35° in the firmware so I hope Louis could measure the real advance.
CDI-Testor : my app to test the system
Oscilloscope capture : Yellow pickup signal / Blue Ignition signal
Looking good Olivier :)
I will need to make a steady reading mark/bracked on my ignition tester.
So i can see the reverence point on the flywheel.
My idea to do that is like this:
Use the oem IC and let it rev between (1000 and 1750rpm that should be the 19 degrees)
If my newly made bracked/point equally with the stock mark on the flywheel it should be 19 degrees.
Then I can use the iCP12 with Olivier firm ware and check if his 19 degrees is the same?
Well that is my idea, Olivier would it work like that??
How do I measure the steady angle, (with a scope???)
Dont know What the mechanical angle is on a 3ma1, does it say anything in the workshop manual on this?
You will need to get a degree wheel and a timing strobe light to measure the ignition timing.
I print a degree wheel onto a printable CD :-)
Fit a metal pointer that will point at the zero mark with the engine/simulator at TDC.
The degree wheel fits on the outside of the flywheel. I use multiple layers of foam double side pads to fix it on. Fit it so that the zero is under the metal pointer.
Run the engine with the timing light pickup attached to the HT lead. It will flash when the spark fires, and you will see the pointer pointing to a certain number, which is the timing in degrees :-)
I make the hypothesis that pickup is about 35° before the TDC (mechanical angle).
The flat advance is 19° so delay between pickup signal rising edge and Ignition firing is 16° (function of RPM too).
The idea is if you measure 17° with the strobe lamp then we could say that Mechanical angle is 33°
At the end I image that user can enter the value of the mechanical angle with a tuning software.
I'll spend time (no sleeping hours) when the hardware is validated ...
Louis : email sent with the firmwares
Here file to print on CD-ROM ;D
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/hdi_enginetiming.htm (http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/hdi_enginetiming.htm)
Olivier,
QuoteI'll spend time (no sleeping hours) when the hardware is validated ...
You making it a super project, thanks
You make me a bid confused (again) with the 19 degrees flat curve and axially 16 degrees firing ??? :D
Would a carefully set 19 degrees on my tester (from Oem IC) not give a exact value when we connect the iCP12 with your firm ware and see what difference in degree the strobe is given with the exact rpm? (on the flat 19 degrees curve)
thanks 4lo4ever for the idea :)
I'm familiar on how to measure the timing, with degree wheel and/or tape and strobe.
With tape I mean, if you know the outside diameter of the flywheel, you can calculate the distance each mark has to have for every degree. You can draw them (carefully) on a white isolation tape and stick that on the fly wheel.
(tape marked In the range of 5 degree till 30 degree)
QuoteFit a metal pointer that will point at the zero mark with the engine/simulator at TDC.
The problem is that I have no reverence on my ignition tester.
Pickup and lobe also mark are not set on oem location.
One thing I know is that the oem cdi has a 19 degrees bace advange.
With that knowledge I think it would be possible to mark the 19 degrees careful on the flywheel.
Stick the 19 degree mark (from the tape) where the strobe light lighted the flywheel.
My English is limited to explain it all better (specially when its getting technical) :-[
Quote from: tzr-v4 on March 31, 2014, 10:48:29 PM
I make the hypothesis that pickup is about 35° before the TDC (mechanical angle).
The flat advance is 19° so delay between pickup signal rising edge and Ignition firing is 16° (function of RPM too).
Will make a drawing but...
I want a 19° advance at 1500rpm then the ignition should be fired 19° before TDC (Am I OK ?)
Step A -> Pickup lobe is under the sensor an crank angle is 35° before TDC
Step B -> I wait some time before firing. The amount of time should represent the 16° at 1500rpm
Step C -> Ignition is fired
Will be back with the drawing...
You guys typing to fast ;D, it took me 15min to type the previous post (in a spell checker program) ::)
That I needed to change it a bid to hold it logical. O:-)
QuoteI want a 19° advance at 1500rpm then the ignition should be fired 19° before TDC (Am I OK ?)
Yes, you are OK :)
1500rpm i can do, and check the timing with strobe
I thought always that when the lobe is passing the pickup the signal is given to the cdi.
That signal is delayed by the IC (following his rpm/degree programming)
Don't understand if you want 19 degrees at 1500rpm the delay you are programming is 16 derees
Know you mean the difference is the 35steady angele -16program =19firing
Having some trouble to visualize it all,
addit:
Now I see you have the drawing ;D
Its getting late, that will be the problem
Will get some sleap
Cheers
Quote from: Louis on March 31, 2014, 11:51:59 PM
Know you mean the difference is the 35steady angele -16program =19firing
Having some trouble to visualize it all,
The 35° steady angle is the mechanical reference for the CDI because it is mechanically fixed (crank+woodruff key+ rotor).
The CDI firmware is able to detect the signal generated by the lobe passing under the pickup.
The detection is the synchronizing top for the electronics.
From this top the CDI waits a calculated time before firing the spark.
The delay from the synchronizing top is calculated as follow :
1 rpm = 360°/min = 6°/s
delay = (SteadyAngle - CDIAdvance) / (rpm * 6) = (35 -19)/(1000*6) = 16/6000 = 0.0026666 s = 2.6666 ms
So CDI waits 2.666ms before firing the ignition
For a constant Advance, the delay decreases as the rpm increases and with a double trace oscilloscope you will see the rising edges getting closer as the rpm increases.
Good morning Olivier.
After just a couple off hours sleep (constantly thinking how would it work) ::)
(Not regimented to do, I'm pretty duff now)
Have figure it out. Not so in detail of course. (with your fine example of the timing versus degree's) ;D
But just simply.
The CDI needs to know a steady/fixed point, for him to calculate back where the timing on that rpm should be.
Will try to update the firm ware within a couple off days. (will let you know)
So I could test it in the weekend.
Could you give it a thought about setting the 19 degrees mark on my testing machine with a oem cdi.
So we could calculate it back when using your firm ware
Think that is the easies way to do it
Perhaps my explanation wasn't that great.
Have made a pointer and located the 19 degrees from a oem IC (3MA-00 CDI)
It looks to me like its pretty soled (from 500 till 1400rpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_q-mz-Uzg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_q-mz-Uzg&feature=youtu.be)
Going from around 500rpm to 3300 rpm using the (0 - 1/8)curve
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fcdicurves3ma-00_zpsd12799c6.jpg&hash=4abd0b5b7605c43391e50653e899f4d8986f367d)
Now this will be my reverence point (as I know it is programmed to give the 19degree in the stock CDI)
Next step is to make a scale going from lets say 4 degrees to 30 degrees (on white tape)
Ones I have the scale taped on the flywheel
I could plug in the ICP12 with the firm ware from Olivier (his 19 degree curve)
If his firm ware has the same 19 degrees as a oem IC, the static angle would be 35.
But if it is different we have to calculate the difference to see what's the real statistic angle is on a 3MA
That was my plan.
Would this be less accurate than making a scale starting from 35 degrees ''at the pickup'' till 0 degrees ''at the pointer''
Personally think the 19 degrees used from the oem IC is pretty accurate
This is a good point.
We could try to adjust the steady angle (mechanical angle) to have my firmware acts like the OEM at least on the lower rpm.
Is the 0-1/8 curve the one I've programmed in the second firmware ?
QuoteWe could try to adjust the steady angle (mechanical angle) to have my firmware acts like the OEM at least on the lower rpm.
Yes, that would be great.
I know in the end the 3MA unit will be fully programmable. So a changed 3MA CDI unit could be working correct on a 2MA to
Perhaps we could make some kind of 3MA map (button) when people use that one they have it all correct.
And if they use the unit on a 2MA they press the 2MA map (button)
People like the plug and play stuff. ;)
QuoteIs the 0-1/8 curve the one I've programmed in the second firmware ?
Not exactly, but very close. :)
you guys are seriously clever 8)
Can the same be done to a standard 3XV(00) CDI too?
Yes the same could be done on the 3XV CDI.
Just need the have the OEM IC pin diagram...
not a pro of the 3XV but :
- some difference :
- 3XV is not a waisted spark ignition (like 2MA / 3MA
- 2 pickup signals
- 2 HT coils
- 2 lines to drive the ignition
New URL about CDI TDR / TZ 89
http://www.geocities.jp/nobusgarage2/tdr250/tune/cdi/cdi.html (http://www.geocities.jp/nobusgarage2/tdr250/tune/cdi/cdi.html)
QuoteNew URL about CDI TDR / TZ 89
Always nice to see more of us enthusiasts ;)
Have made a new setup.
Tried to use the tape, but the scale turns out to be very small
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ftimingtape_zpsb758edbd.jpg&hash=e5cd946d944c119e51a12fa679722be9a4c45c5a)
So have used a old degree wheel, to see how that goes.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ftimingdisksetup_zpsb77d173d.jpg&hash=6dc8a374c731a9b853613593f1ac5028a72a294c)
I need to score a more precise one, as this one is a bid wobbly :-[ (the scale is OK)
Here you have the Oem CDI (3MA-00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCX5QdWnq_w&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCX5QdWnq_w&feature=youtu.be)
Here you have the iCP12 (olivier 19 degrees firm ware)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0prClTAxQA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0prClTAxQA&feature=youtu.be)
The iCP12 is pretty close to the oem 19 degrees (would say its 18 degrees)
But its less steady and when rising the RPM it moves to about 17 degrees
Here you have the iCP12 working (red light is ignition point)
Olivier did a great job
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbB9jQC3bo&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbB9jQC3bo&feature=youtu.be)
Will do some more testing, to make sure how the iCP12 is holding
Hi Louis,
Good news this will keep me going...
I've sourced a TDR250 CDI from the French 2 strokes forum so I'll experiment too.
Do you have the YPVS on your bench ?
I'll look to include the servo in my firmware.
I could also include :
- airjets
- tps for multiple CDI curve.
If you do more testing I could adjust the mechanical advance around 35°+-1° to have 19° at low rpm
Hi Olivier,
QuoteI've sourced a TDR250 CDI from the French 2 strokes forum so I'll experiment too.
That will be great, than we know for sure it will work on a 2MA to
QuoteDo you have the YPVS on your bench ?
I'll look to include the servo in my firmware.
I could also include :
- airjets
- tps for multiple CDI curve.
Yes, bring them on I have it all connected. ;D
QuoteIf you do more testing I could adjust the mechanical advance around 35°+-1° to have 19° at low rpm
I certainly do more testing, I'm now looking for a degree wheel witch is not white ;D
(as its reflect the light off the scope, difficult to look at it for more than half a hour)
If you like yes, make a correction off static angle by 1 degree.
Also could you make a curve starting from 500rpm till 4500rpm, so i can test the moving?
Just ordered this one, Looks to me like a solid degree wheel (in aluminium) 8)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.ebayimg.com%2F06%2Fi%2F001%2F26%2Ff0%2Faea1_12.JPG&hash=0d05e795db81bbb4b7366acfe7ebddf7e0dfbe4a)
Could you perhaps investigate way the 19 degree (firm whare) is slightly moving from 18/19 degrees to a 17 degrees (at 4000rpm)
Perhaps more if i could rise my rpm?
Did you try the CDI-19 only or both (CDU-curve) ?
I could make a CDI-Test with a curve changing at low rpm to go with your bench rpm range.
QuoteDid you try the CDI-19 only or both (CDU-curve) ?
Don't know if I understand you right.
I setup the degree wheel with the stock cdi (to get the 19 degrees Reverence point)
Then I flip the IC out, and connect the iCP12 with your firm ware (the flat 19 degree curve)
There i noticed that at low revs its almost the same as the oem CDI, but when rpm rises it start slightly moving towards the 17 degree.
With a proper bench, we could run good testing to see how it goes.
We should try first the 19° flat CDI.
Two tests to run :
- A) => we should obtain same value for all rpm
- B) => the value should be 19° as the OEM CDI
QuoteWith a proper bench, we could run good testing to see how it goes.
Its a proper bench ;D ;D 8)
(I'm working on something to make it run faster, if I need to go to the higher rpm's)
Think with a correct (non wobbly) timing disc, it will be easier to see what it does :)
Yes this is what I was saying ;D
I could do some testing with the oscilloscope to measure the timing every 500rpm step and make a libreoffice sheet to show the results.
I hope I get my TDR250 CDI soon (25€) to hack it like you did.
I'll work on a YPVS only firmware to test it.
Later we merge the 2 firmwares in one.
Hi,
Check these guys out for electronic kits and components,
http://www.rkonlinestore.co.uk/ (http://www.rkonlinestore.co.uk/)
They have some great stuff at great prices
Laters
Hello davidbraith,
I'm just back from a holiday, My English is not that good to write it fluently without a spell checker certainly not typed in my Phone on a hotel room
So therefore my somewhat late replay
Thanks for the link, Will investigate it.
You can see it more like, I'm trying to measure the signals neecded for this projet.
Olivier is the man for the software/firmware development.
Together with Olivier, and other forum members. We should get this thing to work.
Cheers
It has taken a bid longer as calculated, but finally I have the timing disk.
Its a beauty :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ftimingdisk_zps6107bfbd.jpg&hash=c79d66c01b3449df66d0fe718e6e4bd09722b7fd)
Will try to get it mounted on my flywheel tomorrow, and see how it goes.
Great Louis,
We'll be back on business !!!
I couldn't resist. Back form work, immediately to my workshop ;D
Have setup the timing disk with the oem ic (to get the 19 degrees)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byC7L3PNspY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byC7L3PNspY&feature=youtu.be)
Second run, is with the ICP12.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4RlDdsEu4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4RlDdsEu4&feature=youtu.be)
Now you can see that it starts at 19 degrees (perfect) but when rpm rises it starts to go back slowly to 18 17,5 etc
Olivier,
Is it possible to program it so it holds the 19 degrees steady?
Louis,
That is awesome work! The 3ma1 cdi has quite alot of advance down low doesn't it! Was that with the TPS set at the 0-1/8 position?
Dan
Hello Dan,
Thanks, the new timing disk is much better than the previous one.
QuoteThe 3ma1 cdi has quite alot of advance down low doesn't it! Was that with the TPS set at the 0-1/8 position
Yes, its has a (relative) high advance (28degree at around 3000rpm) this is with the 0 - 1/8 curve
Hope we can hold the 19 degrees steady on the iCP12, than we are good to go :)
Louis
I'll try to investigate where
- calculation error can be done (approximation when between 2 points of the curve,
- time capture error (from signal edge to edge).
We'll focus on 19° steady CDI first.
Quote from: Louis on May 09, 2014, 05:00:01 PM
I couldn't resist. Back form work, immediately to my workshop ;D
Have setup the timing disk with the oem ic (to get the 19 degrees)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byC7L3PNspY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byC7L3PNspY&feature=youtu.be)
Louis. Great work, as usual.
On the video above.
Did you test the std. box, while reading RPM as well?
If you did, and took a note on the exact RPM when timimng hits 28*?
19*-28* is exactly what your "guesstimated" timing map sugests witk the 0-1/8 curve.
With the testing you are doing, you could now determine the accuracy of the timimng map with the 0-1/8 curve, and your "guesstimate" map would become "final" ;D
wow
great work
wouldnt it be great to log all these yamaha cdi boxes so we can recreate them with the programable units
QuoteWith the testing you are doing, you could now determine the accuracy of the timimng map with the 0-1/8 curve, and your "guesstimate" map would become "final" ;D
That is exactly what I'm going to do ;)
By playing back my movie, I could stop the frames at avery point (every degree)
but I had no rpm reverence (only the analog original tacho, not so accurate)
Now the idea is like this. (experimental)
I have ordered on eBay one off these.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Ft%2FLCD-Digital-Engine-Tach-Tachometer-Hour-Meter-Gauge-for-Racing-Motorcycle-UK-%2F00%2Fs%2FODAwWDgwMA%3D%3D%2Fz%2FNV0AAOxyJX1TBbv3%2F%24_58.JPG&hash=7b0e445b95d444c56d4ecae2cacbcc8e8c8155d6)
Want to place it next to the reading point/needle on my ignition tester.
So next time I make a short movie, I could read the
ignition point with the rpm.
Only point now that could destroy my plan, is that the light of the timing light is reflecting/blocking the rpm readings on the movie
Will see what happens when I have it.
Also Olivier pointed me out that there are more possibilities with the iCP12, so will investigate that to
Quotewouldnt it be great to log all these yamaha cdi boxes so we can recreate them with the programable units
Yes, that is the plan Paul. :)
-Ignition curves
-pv curves
-airjet curves
But I need the time to do it all :-[. It will come wait a bid longer 8)
Quote from: Louis on May 11, 2014, 05:24:21 PM
Quotewouldnt it be great to log all these yamaha cdi boxes so we can recreate them with the programable units
Yes, that is the plan Paul. :)
-Ignition curves
-pv curves
-airjet curves
But I need the time to do it all :-[. It will come wait a bid longer 8)
i know its all in good hands, more people would go to prog if they could buy them programmed exactly as per OEM
Quotemore people would go to prog if they could buy them programmed exactly as per OEM
Its something in the far future, but if we have this iCP12 under control.
Tested and add all options.
I like to make a couple off changed 3MA CDI's fore the ones who are interested.
So you will finally have a real plug and play programmable CDI for the 3MA :)
i hope someone is thinking of making one for reading the 3xv boxes like this year ?
we must have most of the boxes coverd between everyone !
i like what your doing ,what a good idea .
well done
The timing going down from 19 degrees to 18/17 is due to there needing to be a correction factor.
The higher the RPM, the more the correction factor needs to be. It is a linear adjustment, so for every 100RPM, take off an extra xxx from the calculated time delay. The Zeeltronic has a compensation value which is used for this, which has to be adjusted until the flat line ignition value stays constant over all the rev range.
Hope this helps! :-)
Rob
Hello Eyrey1
Quotei like what your doing ,what a good idea
Thanks, we are close but its not ready yet.
Hello Rob,
Thanks for the explanation
Was thinking something like that to, as it walking away from 19 degrees equally with the rpm.
Olivier is helping me on this part, he writes the firmware for the iCP12.
He was already talking about a correction factor, but he has some busy days ahead.
So it will take some time, before a new firm ware is made.
In the mean time, hoping to have a working rpm meter within a couple off days.
To see advance versus rpm
If it will not work with tacho type 1, have ordered a other type with bright red digits that would do the trick
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Ft%2F4-Digital-Red-LED-Tachometer-RPM-Speed-Meter-Hall-Proximity-Switch-Sensor-NPN-%2F00%2Fs%2FNTU4WDY1MA%3D%3D%2Fz%2FCl0AAOxy3zNSe9eA%2F%24T2eC16h%2C%21y4FIZLt7Vt5BSe9e%21Isl%21%7E%7E60_12.JPG&hash=0d77a60ce09ca41fe9547efb59c4e49a292d9db4)
I've been able to have some time to modify the CDI at 19° steady.
Louis need your test and feedback :D ;)
Change serial link from pooling to interrupt, increase the timer counting frequency and new formula!!!
We'll see the result.
New CDI-Testor application with RPM and Advance circular gauges ;)
Hello Olivier,
Your CDI-testor is looking great.
Have downloaded your 19 degrees firmware on the iCP12.
And have tested it, sadly it has a somewhat same results (perhaps it's walking less fast)
(If you look close to the last rpms, it seems that its walking to the 20 degrees to)
Have double checked it just to know for sure the firmware is downloaded correct.
Had no problems with installing the software
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Ftestfirmwareupload_zpsf06633c0.jpg&hash=9879fe30916137bc92acec9229e092712c42f6bd)
Here you have the movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KztzgLlGwjw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KztzgLlGwjw&feature=youtu.be)
Sadly the rpm meter haven't arrived jet, so I can't tell you on witch rpm versus degrees it is walking
Hope to receive the meters soon, so I can help you more on this part
Louis
Found some info about accuracy. Perhaps this will bring you on new ideas
QuoteAccuracy:
The curve is thus defined by 131 points, authorising a tuning. But the accuracy is rough:
+/- 1° à 1660tr/mn
+/- 5° à 8330tr/mn
This low precision is due to the 100us step, "the measuring unit" used for measuring the duration between 2 pulses and to set the delay before the spark.
Those durations are counted in 100us units.
100us unit is small enough at low RPM but is not at high RPM!
This value is a compromise for low and high RPM.
ie: a 8300rpm, 30° mean 0.026ms while 35° mean 0.029ms, and both value are rounded to 0.03ms (multiple of 100us)
A 10us unit would be more accurate but in another hand, the table would be ten time larger, and would overflow the 8bits counter capacity at low RPM...
Changing the quartz will not improve the precision either. 4MHz is fast enought, to replace it by a 8Mhz crystal will not improve the accuracy.
And:
QuoteDuration of the spark:
The duration of the spark cannot be adjust on a CDI, it depend of the capacitor value and the coil value. After all we can adjust the duration of the pulse that trigger the thyristor. This pulse duration (called: dwell time) can be change for some slow thyristor but without impact on the spark duration:
The timer step which counts the time between 2 pickup pulses is : 0.66666666667 µs
For counting the retard, the timer step is 0.08333333334 µs
The problem is that the 2 resolutions (steps) are combining themselves when calculating the retard.
For a fixed value of advance 19°, you have to wait 35°-19°=16° before firing the spark.
The time to wait for these 16° decreases as the rpm rises :( so the counter has to count less then the resolution gets a bigger impact.
In my firmware, I compute the linear approximation between 2 points on the advance curve (should have no impact on the steady 19° firmware) I'll check this.
On my CDI-Testor, I compute back the advance based on the timer value send to the PC by the ICP12. So it is a bit theoretical.
Your RPM reader will be useful for looking at which rpm the signal is shifting.
I belief that it will be difficult, I'm trying to help you as good as I can :)
We had luck, today I found my first rpm type in the post.
So have tested it
Here are the results (Indication)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F810-rpm-bij-19%2C3-graden.jpg&hash=bbe2d5d01dcebc63164cc8a1f2225801e8b935e6)
810rpm at 19,3 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F1280-rpm-bij-19-graden.jpg&hash=7a60e5d0e50e44b54044b84f9806ea94e0ace5c5)
1280rpm at 19 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F2100-rpm-bij-18%2C5-graden.jpg&hash=1d749bcf455eb768a7fd0f606e46f01dc4cb4f26)
2100rpm at 18,5 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F3030-rpm-bij-18-graden.jpg&hash=ebf05df03a862d42c93e00da053c5cc08288486c)
3030rpm at 18 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F3900-rpm-bij-17%2C5-graden.jpg&hash=7ce6b26d914ca2f540c0148caa2d30580bfd7ca8)
3900rpm at 17,5 degrees
Roughly saying:
every 900rpm gives a half degree out
Hope this helps:
Will test the oem ic to, see what it does
Hi all...
Was last weekend on track at the RD500LC meeting on my TZR250 2XT.
I'll post some pictures later.
I pickup a TDR250 CDI which will be used and converted to programmable ignition.
I'll test it first the hack it ;)
Hello Olivier,
Great you have that CDI, could be interesting to see if the components/design are somewhat the same as the 3MA CDI
Last weekend I spend some time to investigate the speed limiter system.
Found some interesting thinks.
One off them is, found the purpose of pin number 34 on the IC. ;)
See here for some more info.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/speed-limiter.html
Could be handy to know that you have two lines (cables) from cockpit to IC
In the newer version we could use it for two options :)
Louis
Hi,
Here the TDR250 CDI Box.
Will test it on me 2XT but need to sort what to do with the 3 wires connector used for the side stand switch.
- Black is ground
- Light blue is neutral contact
- Blue-Yellow is side stand
Should I leave it unconnected ?
Louis, how to open properly the box ?
Hello Olivier,
QuoteWill test it on me 2XT but need to sort what to do with the 3 wires connector used for the side stand switch.
- Black is ground
- Light blue is neutral contact
- Blue-Yellow is side stand
Normally neutral light/signal is given by a ground signal idem for the side stand.
The side stand needs a mass signal in order to give the right signal ''stand is in'' to the CDI
So you can put a mass signal on the side stand wire, to give the right signal to the cdi.
Neutral can be left open, or giving a mass signal same as shifting trough the gears.
QuoteLouis, how to open properly the box ?
Normally I flip the frond out, after that ill try to pull it out. (normally it not that strong glued)
But if she holds steady, ill cut here open.
(Saw it at the bottom about 1mm from the side)
Back from family holidays and back to home ;)
I've made a little wiring loom 'very small' to have my 2XT running the TDR250 2YK CDI
Balance :
- wiring the side stand and the neutral light to Ground
- YPVS working (at least cleaning cycle)
- bike runs on the side stand in the garage
Picture to come.
Next step open the black box without damaging the circuit board and the box :D
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_01.jpg&hash=1ec829bdb24781e8bb3fab391b43b9c705f8dccb)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_02.jpg&hash=b2b0dd5f8ca294e286737cfffb7061010e3d31ff)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_03.jpg&hash=d00449abd137b09c2d9f62e464f737abc033b652)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_04.jpg&hash=3c764c5220a4ace175b7e815ae1cea6825bba05d)
Voila!!!
OEM IC writting:
D
071050-0030
511 128M
8804 Z07
Will try to get the OEM pin description this weekend.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_07.jpg&hash=4455ca07ea8d990feaac6ffe8ffb627c82a78393)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_08.jpg&hash=aac4daf8634a44295a61fb26e19fa4977e53d811)
Going Great Olivier :)
Looks like the IC is all most the same.
Ill be really interested in the pin setting, don't think they are that different
I'll try OEM pins description after garden maintenance ;)
Quoteafter garden maintenance ;)
Hope you don't have a big garden ;D ;)
Quote from: Louis on August 16, 2014, 07:52:37 PM
Quoteafter garden maintenance ;)
Hope you don't have a big garden ;D ;)
Whaaaahahaha
Done the garden very quick and when to the garage ;D
Balance : TDR250 has same pins as the 3MA in the IC
Louis can you check please if it is OK
NAME -> PIC Pin <=> OEM IC | bike
// Power
VDD (5V) -> Pin 20 <=> Pin 42 | 3MA + 2YK
VSS (0V) -> PIN 19 <=> Pin 21 | 3MA + 2YK
// Analogic To Digital
ADC_YPVS -> AN0 <=> Pin 36 | 3MA + 2YK
ADC_TPS -> AN1 <=> Pin 35 | 3MA
ADC_SPEED -> AN2 <=> Pin 33 | 3MA
// Logical Outputs
BLINK_LED -> RB5 (blinking led to see that PIC is running)
YPVS_OPEN -> RA3 <=> Pin 5 or 6 | 3MA + 2YK
YPVS_CLOSE -> RA5 <=> Pin 5 or 6 | 3MA + 2YK
AIR_JET1 -> RC1 <=> Pin 27 or 26 | 3MA
AIR_JET2 -> RC2 <=> Pin 27 or 26 | 3MA
IGNITION -> RC0 <=> Pin 22 | 3MA + 2YK
// Interrupt
PICKUP -> RB0 <=> Pin 13 | 3MA + 2YK
Here my setup
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_09.jpg&hash=d9dcb72533d51f0d931d048880bce8b8bf3d39a4)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_10.jpg&hash=040bff2fe6b949c5a2ee8b585ed998ff7ab40bce)
QuoteLouis can you check please if it is OK
Yes just did :) its the same
Oem IC (3MA and 2YK)
Voltage and Mass.
Pin 42-----5V (3MA and 2YK)
Pin 21-----0V (3MA and 2YK)
Analogic To Digital
Pin 36-----YPVS (3MA and 2YK)
Pin 35-----TPS High (3MA)
Pin 34-----SPEED Low (3MA)
Pin 33-----SPEED High (3MA)
Logical Outputs
Pin (5 - 6) ----- YPVS (open - close) (3MA and 2YK)
Pin (5 - 6) ----- YPVS (close - open) (3MA and 2YK)
Pin 27 ---------- AIRJET 1 (3MA)
Pin 26 ---------- AIRJET 2 (3MA)
Pin 13 ---------- IGNITION (3MA and 2YK)
Logical Input
Pin 22 ---------- PICKUP (3MA and 2YK)
We can use the signal's (pin 33 and 34) from the Speedlimiter for extra functions.
Those wires go from
IC to
clocks. (coming out in a three way connector witch has a nice mass signal to)
Just some info: http://www.tzr3ma.com/speed-limiter.html
Some work done at the school electronic lab ;)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_11.jpg&hash=b2e082b30ed66029680731fe83fc9ab3afd98989)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_12.jpg&hash=0089e61bdc565b9876b82a9ec760dedf976de71b)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_13.jpg&hash=ba65c15ffd1668e789b494f3829f154bfb6da539)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_14.jpg&hash=a56aa19859046e53336dde257e679b239b515adc)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_15.jpg&hash=dc9925b7e4133ad249070a9c5020cef201e88d33)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_16.jpg&hash=fe94df499780b572cead2ef5a545112bebbbf101)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_17.jpg&hash=b6414c97251c38d18438f129ee61787477dbaf40)
All the components to compare OEM to programmable
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_18.jpg&hash=074cdcad7553029b80ee5207298ab1a43debb1f7)
Wires to be soldered on the adaptor to connect the ICP12
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_19.jpg&hash=9de47f4b1860d812e1c82961e1f46f136b745214)
Looking promising 8)
Can't wait for the results :)
Do you have some nice ideas for the software? What can we make adjustable? And what options do we have programming it?
(By mobile phone)
Without doubt you two guys are something else. Your knowledge and ingenuity never cease to amaze me . Just to confirm what I think is going on, is the end result going to be a fully programmable ignition / power valve controller that will replace the 3ma unit and possibly the 2ma as well. If so , Ill buy one !!!
Tested OEM CDI with my piggyback IC :D
The bike runs and YPVS cleaning is operating.
I'll plug the oscilloscope to get the signal shapes
Can the sliding could come from the use of pickup falling edge signal not the rising edge?
Could be easy to change and test... Louis
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_20.jpg&hash=28ea7e8849bc00274c9b43165faf9ecdddb4afda)
QuoteThe bike runs and YPVS cleaning is operating.
The IC it self seems to be quit strong, my desoldering what probably less advanced as yours :-[
No less after all my heating the IC still worked :)
QuoteCan the sliding could come from the use of pickup falling edge signal not the rising edge?
I was wondering what signal you used?
The rising edge would be more steady than the falling edge (I think) do to the speeding up wile traveling over the flywheel lobe.
(the Lob on a 3MA3 flywheel is quit longer than the 3MA1)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fdiffflywheel_zps75e0d437.jpg&hash=d4c8e77c4c1e7656847a94ebc05eaaf3688ef0cf)
Theoretical it should not be different, but you never know :-\
QuoteCould be easy to change and test... Louis
Ill make my test bench ready for some new software ;)
I've been a little in the garage and the setup is building up
- PC
- USB Oscilloscope
- PC power supply to provide 12V
- OEM CDI
Here some results on the pickup signal.
Will do more tomorrow :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_01.jpg&hash=64bd54aa013ff0704b65925b4c55a55d16b6a4ff)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_02.jpg&hash=05d641420727b1c6c8e2d25d37500cca535ad060)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_03.jpg&hash=34073f24a1e73aa8bfda7ba8baf6360f3da871f8)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_04.jpg&hash=5443a0de2c941e873603b81bc25e24c15ce24012)
Looking good Olivier 8)
Think your equipment is better then mine, have a similar image measuring on pin 13
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fingang-signaal.jpg&hash=d7ddc2feeb65c8dfee5dd931f296b8bfc2b579f5)
I don't had that peek at the beginning off the signal, think your's is more accurate :)
I'll check if the lower part (0v) change in length (or time) with rpm.
Test tomorrow.
Quick tests after home maintenance ;D
Legend
- Green is pickup signal on the IC
- White is the ignition order from the IC
- RPM around 3000 at the tachometer
Pickup frequency is about 87Hz so 2610 rpm.
Seems OK as we all know the tacho is cheating ;)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_05.jpg&hash=78bafc22ebbbbfac022104477f2e2f34c73cfc09)
Lower part (0v) of pickup signal varies with RPM so impacted by the lobe length :)
We can see that ignition signal starts after the falling edge of pickup signal.
I'll change my code to detect the falling edge of the pickup signal not the raising edge.
More to come :D
Hello Olivier,
Great that you have spotted the problem :)
But I like to see it to, and dont see it. (sorry)
Here is mine point a few, perhaps I'm seeing it wrong
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fmeetolivier1_zpsbf53af96.jpg&hash=24e15e697ba70e398b1e0c0804de34dcb6a92598)
Red line:
Start of the pickup signal (digital incoming signal, not analog)
Blue line:
End of the Pickup signal (the back edge off the lobe passing the pickup)
Purple
The distance between, is the length off the lobe. (digital incomming signal, not anolog)
Yellow line:
Start of the ignition signal coming from the IC
Grey:
The calculated time for giving a usable signal to different components on the CDI board (to work correct)
Green:
Calculated delay time to give ignition signal
What do I see wrong?, like to join you with the correct thoughts :)
Or does it fires when the ignition signal is at 0V, then I see exactly what you mean (brown arrow)
Louis I think you are wright ;)
My firmware is working on falling edge so the problem did not come from there. :(
I think the problem comes from the grey zone.
In my code I've used a delay of 1ms at 0v but a delay instruction freezes the processor.
I'll try to have a timer counting the 1ms on its own and at the end put the ignition signal back to 5v.
Here my setup :D
I'll try to start the bike at low rpm but I'll need timing light to adjust.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_21.jpg&hash=1193c87cf256c29c69914e0cbb5fc3df423850bf)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_22.jpg&hash=cf243fffdda70ef5584196a8fe4fff0f5027f8d3)
QuoteI'll try to start the bike at low rpm but I'll need timing light to adjust.
Your firmware was close to 18 degrees if I remember it right, your bike will start on it ;)
QuoteMy firmware is working on falling edge so the problem did not come from there.
Falling edge has still the traveling time from the lob in it (distance off the lobe) while the starting edge is always the same
Would the time to calculate it not be to short if the ICP12 has to calculate it at the falling edge?
It has more time when he starts at the rising edge (just a thought)
Can it be adjust/rewrite easy so it triggers at the starting of the lobe (rising edge?)
If its easy, I can test it here if it helps, have the ignition tester/setup ready.
another idea that perhaps could bring you useful information.
I have a another ICP12 here witch i can use as a two channel oscilloscope.
Step one:
Measure the incoming and outgoing signal on the oem IC at 2000rpm 3000rpm 4000rpm
Step two:
Measure the incoming and outgoing signal on the ICP12 at 2000rpm 3000rpm 4000rpm
Compare the measured values and see where it is different
Would that be helpful to you, as I need to make that setup (takes some time)
QuoteI'll try to have a timer counting the 1ms on its own and at the end put the ignition signal back to 5v.
You let it sound that easy :)
Quoteanother idea that perhaps could bring you useful information.
I didn't thought about that one so well. :-[
We are focusing us on the 19 degrees flat curve, the Oem Ic does not have that.
So we Can only measure it on the rpm range from +/-750 rpm till 1500rpm (ware we have a flat 19 degree)
Lets say when your bike runs idle.
Don't know if that oscilloscope have a recording function, if it does that could be handy.
You can record a idle part with oem IC and one with the ICP12.
Find a part on the recorded where both IC's has the same rpm, then you would have a good comparising material
Just a thought
Yes Louis, my PC oscilloscope have image capture and video recording so I can catch things and compare them later.
I'll try recording at 2000, 2500, 3000 rpm on tacho.
Working on loom to get a good setup form testing.
Next step is making a main-board for ICP12 ;)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_23.jpg&hash=7f2b31f3bc40a9cbedf3b679c0863916ee9a0c7d)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_24.jpg&hash=9fb595fd69e25e5c69d5788715a61cdf809010ff)
Looking good
Think you will be the first one that is riding a bike with the iCP12 :)
Seeing you have the ignition and pv's connected
I'll try to make a card for the main board when I'll be back at work.
I'll draw it with board maker and print it on our little CNC machine.
But I'll make it for the 3MA with all the signals not only for the 2YK or 2XT.
;)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_25.jpg&hash=6d023202c652e419e218958f02a84344924f1a13)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_26.jpg&hash=0bd4406731fa83fc34ad1689ffacda5f65b8c947)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_27.jpg&hash=01e40819800912b73184b3e5bac2a6f38becc88a)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_28.jpg&hash=c94732d06264163a768de6d7c69daad989f9292d)
TESTS
>:(
Battery power was very BIG consumption due to YPVS motor
To be checked : motor off is maybe 0v on both pin ?
;D
After a small hack on the new loom, the bike starts like with the OEM CDI
Test 1 = with 12V power supply from ATX PC Power supply :)
Test 2 = without battery only a battery eliminator :D
Download the video and play it ;D
ICP12 powered => Green led blink
Video_ICP12_01.mp4 (http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_01.mp4)
Bike stars => red led blinks when ignition is trigged ;D ;D
Video_ICP12_02.mp4 (http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_02.mp4)
QuoteTo be checked : motor off is maybe 0v on both pin
I believe it is indeed 0V on both pins after the cleaning cycle
Will need to check that to
Could be me, but I think you posted two the same movies
I only see the led blinking, the rengadeng I can't see/hear :)
You are flying now ;D
Edited my previous message.
Will check too the OEM IC on the YPVS pin 5 and 6
I found the pin 7 and 8 are also involved in YPVS driving :o
Pin 5 and 8 work together
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FYPVS_Pin5-8.jpg&hash=c16371bd35739392b24cf94548a5d1934cd4ef4f)
Pin 6 and 7 work together
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FYPVS_Pin6-7.jpg&hash=e7c287ea3838d42fa446ca0d76311ff28c09593c)
Pin 5 and 6 work in opposition
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FYPVS_Pin5-6.jpg&hash=ef380b706e22d1f31b5a2391f3506cd871ce35d3)
This is confirmed :
- pin 5 and 8 work together
- pin 6 and 7 work together
Soldered on the IC emulator the pins together.
I powered the CDI and the ICP12 and :
- no more heat building the the STA434A IC (double H-Bridge)
- ICP12 fully powered
- neutral light very bright
- oil light bright too.
Tomorrow I hope to test YPVS operating ;)
That is a great found Olivier :)
I'm a bid limited with my equiptmend to measure. (don't have a two channel oscilloscope)
Have start looking on eBay to find one in order to measure more in the future.
Seen two interesting ones, but they all needs to be paid :-[
Will see how that goes.
Quoteno more heat building the the STA434A IC (double H-Bridge)
Eh, the What? ;D
H-bridge is use when you want to pilot a dc electric motor.
The motor contains coils so lot of inductive and when you want the reverse the rotation youdge are facing problems with inductive current...
The H bridge manage the connections to the motor
1 and 4 => rotation forward
2 and 3 => rotation backward
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_bridge)
in red
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd4%2FH_bridge.svg%2F310px-H_bridge.svg.png&hash=cafd60b8da4d17bf0d7501b77c9baf487cc3cdfb)
Quote from: Louis on August 25, 2014, 11:05:18 PM
Have start looking on eBay to find one in order to measure more in the future.
Seen two interesting ones, but they all needs to be paid
I'm using and USB one taken from the school of engineering ;)
Not as good as the old fashion ones but free for me ;D
Easy to grab print screen and record videos.
check this at 115 USD
http://www.dx.com/fr/p/h301-portable-48mhz-usb-digital-oscilloscope-82005 (http://www.dx.com/fr/p/h301-portable-48mhz-usb-digital-oscilloscope-82005)
I'll look at too
Think to look at is at least en English based software :D
Thanks Olivier,
The H-bride starts to ring a bell. ;D
A year back at a training at the GM-academy (I'm working for Opel)
They used a newer version (Peek frequent controlled) to stop the motor (from the car whipers) faster. (like a brake)
Will have to read that again to know how it exactly went.
I'll will have a look at your link.
Have seen something link this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hantek-6022BE-PC-Based-USB-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-20MHz-Bandwidth-48MSa-s-/331245851756?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item4d1fca946c
What a hobby we have ::) ;D
The one from ebay has a sampling frequency of 20MHz and the one from my link 48MHz.
The higher it is the higher frequency signals you can look at.
On bikes frequency are quite low on the signals we look at.
15000rpm with 2 lobes (3MA or 2XT) is only 500 Hz :D
15000rpm is not good for cranks ::)
Correct my note on YPVS, verify my firmware and....
YPVS does it cleaning cycle on bike power goes to ON :D
Little video where you can ear the cycle ;)
Video_ICP12_03.mp4 (http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_03.mp4)
Great, it looks like its working like oem :) That's what I call dedication 8)
In fact, theoretical now we have a free programmable pv system ;)
Not finished as I need to put in the firmware the YPVS control with the RPM.
I've done it in the past on the YPVSBox project.
I need to check again the OEM signals (pickup and ignition) at 1000rpm, 2000, 3000 and 4000 to see how I could manage the ignition signal.
Actually, I drop the ignition signal to 0V for 0.5ms but it freezes the ICP12 for this time.
Maybe this create the advance shifting ::)
Louis, I may need your help when I switch to timing strobe light ;)
QuoteI need to check again the OEM signals (pickup and ignition) at 1000rpm, 2000, 3000 and 4000 to see how I could manage the ignition signal.
Actually, I drop the ignition signal to 0V for 0.5ms but it freezes the ICP12 for this time.
Hope we get it under control, it will give this project a huge boost :)
QuoteLouis, I may need your help when I switch to timing strobe light ;)
No problem Olivier, you name it
Louis do you have a tutorial for strobe light and picture of your system on your web.
- how you setup the timing disk / the crank or TDC
- how you setup the ready steady point (steady needle)
I now the physics of strobe effect on rotating systems.
Quote- how you setup the timing disk / the crank or TDC
- how you setup the ready steady point (steady needle)
On my testing machine its quit simple.
Have made a steady pointer to point the degrees at the timing disk.
I let the engine run between 1000 - 1500rpm wit the oem IC and Rotate the disk until I have 19 degrees.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F1280-rpm-bij-19-graden.jpg&hash=7a60e5d0e50e44b54044b84f9806ea94e0ace5c5)
(19 degrees ia a Steady point/ checking point for the 3ma1)
After that I connect the iCP12 to test the firm ware :)
I'll try to see if I can borrow the timing light from my car mechanic.
With modern cars, I thing he should not need one anymore ;D
I'll try to get it on Friday for the weekend ;)
I've rewritten the firmware code to avoid delay function witch freezes the cpu.
I've added also a non blocking YPVS cleaning cycle function so the CDI should work even if the YPVS motor in not on the loom.
I've done some test adding the bluetooth module to ICP12 and I hope next testing will show live data from the ICP12 while the bike runs.
Louis I'll email you firmware to test on your bench.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_29.jpg&hash=27ed1b5915ef5d061e286d15a76f9c7e3172e46a)
Great work Olivier :)
When I have the firm ware, will test it right away.
Give you the results
later when my geek son will release the mouse ;D
I've been working a little on firmware and on bluetooth link.
But not too much because lot a thing to do (kids start school again next week).
here a little video of bike running the ICP12 CDI and PC asking some live data from ICP12.
Video_ICP12_04.mp4 (http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_04.mp4)
Not so easy to do all the things with one hand ;D
Quotehere a little video of bike running the ICP12 CDI and PC asking some live data from ICP12.
That is looking Super :o. That rpm is the exact rpm calculated by the iCP12?
I'm just wondering, where is the limit from the iCP12. Is there a possibility for a external display?
So you can see the rpm and other gadgets? live 8)
Quote from: Louis on August 31, 2014, 12:22:02 AM
That is looking Super :o. That rpm is the exact rpm calculated by the iCP12?
I'm just wondering, where is the limit from the iCP12. Is there a possibility for a external display?
So you can see the rpm and other gadgets? live 8)
the ICP12 can send any data we want as we program it ;D
Actually, if IPC12 receives the monitor command 'm' then it sends :
- rpm timer => time between 2 falling edges of pickup signal => RPM is computed by PC App
- capture flag => 0 = wrong capture / 1 = capture OK
- advance value from the CDI curve stored in ICP12
- ignition timer => time between falling edge of pickup signal and Ignition => advance is computed by PC App
- YPVS position value => digital 0-1023 => analog 0v-5v
- TPS position value => digital 0-1023 => analog 0v-5v
- SPEED position value => digital 0-1023 => analog 0v-5v
We could add flags to see air_jet 1 and 2 activation.
PC App should be modified to suit the ICP12 message.
Quotethe ICP12 can send any data we want as we program it
Great. :)
But would it be possible to show the live data on something like this
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.piccircuit.com%2Fshop%2F320-thickbox%2F128x64-graphic-lcd-display.jpg&hash=c6fc298d8ca8eec7ba27b13905dca8d9fe32775c)
If I made a nice bracket on the top yoke.
Would I be seeing what it is doing and see the changing Ill make?
Quote from: Louis on August 31, 2014, 10:13:07 AM
Quotethe ICP12 can send any data we want as we program it
Great. :)
But would it be possible to show the live data on something like this
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.piccircuit.com%2Fshop%2F320-thickbox%2F128x64-graphic-lcd-display.jpg&hash=c6fc298d8ca8eec7ba27b13905dca8d9fe32775c)
If I made a nice bracket on the top yoke.
Would I be seeing what it is doing and see the changing Ill make?
this what ;)
We could setup an android app to display live data.
Never done one but one of my research friend has made one ;)
It seems very easy (1hour and it was done)
QuoteWe could setup an android app to display live data.
In the end this could be a very high tech ignition system :)
A king of SUGO box ::) ::)
Have tested the new firmware, it looks like its somewhat the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY_qT19PR88&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA
Have only connected what is necessary
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fuitsluitendwatnodigis_zps3d000d17.jpg&hash=7200dc4009df53ca5b017f6e21f4788bc565ad3d)
Perhaps I'm connecting something wrong?
Yellow is B0 at the iCP12 connected to pin 22 pickup signal
Green is C0 at the iCP12 connected to pin 13 ignition signal
Black mass (from the B line) to mass oem IC
Red plus From the B line) to Plus oem IC
Ehhhh think something is going wrong
QuoteIGNITION -> RC0 <=> Pin 22 | 3MA + 2YK
// Interrupt
PICKUP -> RB0 <=> Pin 13 | 3MA + 2YK
Not very surprised about the result as I've not done major modification to the code.
I'll check more precisely the calculation.
I'll try tomorrow evening when back from work the OEM TDR CDI with the oscilloscope to have a starting point.
I'll try to get my hands on a timing light too.
We need to sort this before going to far on the software development. ;)
Just flipped it, to your setup.
Sadly its has the same results? :-[
QuoteNot very surprised about the result as I've not done major modification to the code.
Ok, Had hoped that you cracked it :)
QuoteWe need to sort this before going to far on the software development.
Yes we do ;D, perhaps a linear correction factor calculated in the firm ware? (half degree every 900 rpm)
Quote from: Louis on August 31, 2014, 09:26:59 PM
Yes we do ;D, perhaps a linear correction factor calculated in the firm ware? (half degree every 900 rpm)
I'll try to investigate where this comes from.
I'll do first the researcher way... try to find why this happens
but if I struggle then I'll do the engineer way => the correction factor to make it work without knowing why ;D
Quotebut if I struggle then I'll do the engineer way => the correction factor to make it work without knowing why ;D
;D,
This site goes quit deep into the material, explaining delay and calculations. Perhaps they give you new ideas.
http://www.transmic.net/en/1684-v5.htm
I'll read the information because I don't know where it could comes from.
My calculation seems OK.
I'll borrow from the school lab an electronic signal generator to simulate the pickup signal (waisted spark like 3MA and 2XT) from 16Hz (~500rpm) to 430Hz (~13000rpm).
I'll capture signal from the oscilloscope and compute the delay between falling edges.
We will see if shifting comes from ICP12 firmware or OEM electronics.
Here the results of my testing with a frequency generator
white signal pickup
green signal ignition
at 200Hz about 6000rpm
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F200Hz_01.jpg&hash=5655440e5ce8009aa6b476864f03bd859f45cf11)
a zoom : time between falling edges is 4.5 x 100µs
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F200Hz_02.jpg&hash=4ad392b9a5033db046b5a4702acd747e314486d7)
Done graphical measurements from 19Hz to 333Hz
Then I compute the rotation speed in °/s from frequency
and the ° between the falling edges from the time between edges
Remember the settings:
- Mechanical angle is 35°
- Steady advance is 19°
=> angle from the time between edges should be 16°
My results are good so shifting comes from elsewhere ;D
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FICP12-Test.jpg&hash=17dfe185481a73ce12a437dec7e24badb5717391)
Live data via bluetooth at 200.723Hz => 6021.69rpm AND ICP12 capture 6024rpm
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FICP12-LiveData.jpg&hash=b98232f921ca87ee63c44aa6177993e710cdf8e9)
Looking interesting Olivier,
So in theory it should work, only in practice we have a small problem ???
The time between falling and rising edge, how does that hold when rpm is increasing?
Could it be that that changes to, or is it steady (compared with the rising rpm)
We ar not going that easy to the correction factor ;D
I'll try to have a timing light for the weekend.
Maybe the electronic of the OEM board is introducing the shifting.
To be tested
Is that triggering into a load (coil) or just a floating signal ?
Maybe it needs some load on it to remove that spike.
The other possibility is that if it connected to a load - then the in rush may be causing it ?
just floating some ideas in there...........
I'll try to compare on the oscilloscope :
- the order output of the OEM IC = pin 13
- the ignition output which goes to the coil = orange wire
We'll see if there is a delay between them.
It's amacing what your are dooing, also that it happens in a combination of France, Holland, Australia....etc..
what at great hobby we have.. :)
Quote from: Need4speed on September 03, 2014, 12:42:27 PM
It's amacing what your are dooing, also that it happens in a combination of France, Holland, Australia....etc..
what at great hobby we have.. :)
Yes this hobby keeps our mind active ;)
How do I should mount the timing disk on the rotor ?
Pictures are welcomed Louis...
Thanks guys, more can join us with thought and ideas :)
QuoteHow do I should mount the timing disk on the rotor
Depends on what you want.
If you want to read the degrees at different rpm's, its almost impossible as its very difficult to hold a (tzr) engine steady.
That's one off the reasons I use a electro engine, easy to hold a (relative) steady rpm.
Normally a timing disk has a center hole, you can drill it in the diameter you need.
Just use a nut to clamp it.
Example:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftzr250.webs.com%2Fgraden.JPG&hash=d5bb404c53e7e226aa14a30cf843e09ec3125d9b)
If you only want to see the moving (checking your 19 degree firm ware)
Its easy:
Just make a new bright mark on your flywheel, and a prices pointer to point the mark.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Ftimingtape_zpsb758edbd.jpg&hash=e5cd946d944c119e51a12fa679722be9a4c45c5a)
It should hold steady on all rpm's off the engine, if you see it moving you see what I see ;)
Olivier think I got something.
QuoteAccuracy:
The curve is thus defined by 131 points, authorising a tuning. But the accuracy is rough:
+/- 1° à 1660tr/mn
+/- 5° à 8330tr/mn
This low precision is due to the 100us step, "the measuring unit" used for measuring the duration between 2 pulses and to set the delay before the spark.
Those durations are counted in 100us units.
100us unit is small enough at low RPM but is not at high RPM!
This value is a compromise for low and high RPM.
ie: a 8300rpm, 30° mean 0.026ms while 35° mean 0.029ms, and both value are rounded to 0.03ms (multiple of 100us)
A 10us unit would be more accurate but in another hand, the table would be ten time larger, and would overflow the 8bits counter capacity at low RPM...
Changing the quartz will not improve the precision either. 4MHz is fast enought, to replace it by a 8Mhz crystal will not improve the accuracy.
This is the biggest change between PCM5.4 and PCM6.4: the software is different so the accuracy reach 0.7°
My ignition tester goes to about 4200rpm
I had roughly two degrees differences between 800rpm till 4000rpm
Meaning it could be 5 degrees when hitting around 8500rpm
That's exactly what this is telling us, its the Limitation of the point the pic has
Louis,
It depends on speed of the PIC.
Our ICP12 is 18f2550 PIC with a 20MHz crystal and with internal multiplier clock is 48MHz.
So pretty fast.
Timer to count are
- TMR1 for RPM of 16bits <=> 0-65535 range at a counting step of 0.6666µs
=> 1000rpm is 30ms period => TMR1 = 45004 => TMR1 = 45005 is 30.00033ms period => 999.988rpm
=> 10000rpm is 3ms period => TMR1 = 4500 => TMR1 = 4501 is 3000,3666µs period => 9998.78rpm
- TMR3 for IgnitionDelay of 16bits <=> 0-65535 range at a counting step of 0.08333µs
=> 1000rpm is 6000°/s => 16° is TMR3 = 32001 => TMR3 = 32002 is 15.994°
=> 10000rpm is 60000°/s => 16° is TMR3 = 3201=> TMR3 = 3202 is 16.0035°
So you can see that resolution is very high :D
QuoteSo you can see that resolution is very high :D
It took me a while before I understand (a bid) what you have been writing. :o
Quoteie: a 8300rpm, 30° mean 0.026ms while 35° mean 0.029ms, and both value are rounded to 0.03ms (multiple of 100us)
Way is our 10000rpm at 3Ms and his 8300rpm at 0,026ms (looks like it shorter in time)?
What are our points at 10.000rpm at 14 degrees and 10.000rpm at 18 degrees?
How much is the difference?
What's our tolerance between the points? And where is it rounded at?
Quote from: tzr-v4 on September 06, 2014, 11:12:45 PM
Timer to count are
- TMR1 for RPM of 16bits <=> 0-65535 range at a counting step of 0.6666µs
=> 1000rpm is 30ms period => TMR1 = 45004 => TMR1 = 45005 is 30.00033ms period => 999.988rpm
=> 10000rpm is 3ms period => TMR1 = 4500 => TMR1 = 4501 is 3000,3666µs period => 9998.78rpm
- TMR3 for IgnitionDelay of 16bits <=> 0-65535 range at a counting step of 0.08333µs
=> 1000rpm is 6000°/s => 16° is TMR3 = 32001 => TMR3 = 32002 is 15.994°
=> 10000rpm is 60000°/s => 16° is TMR3 = 3201=> TMR3 = 3202 is 16.0035°
To count 16° at 10000rpm TMR3 is loaded with 65535-3201 so it will count 3201 before an over flow counting (event with is captured to fire the ignition).
So if it count 3201+1 then angle will be 16.0035°
So resolution in ° is linked to the TMR3 step and linked to rpm value
- at 1000rpm resolution is 0.006°
- at 10000rpm resolution is 0.0035°
So there is no way that ICP12 PIC creates the drifting in your testing.
I'll go in the garage to measure temporal shifting between IC output and primary coil signal (orange wire).
A constant temporal shifting will lead to a shifting in degree as rpm increases.
Olivier.
QuoteSo there is no way that ICP12 PIC creates the drifting in your testing.
Fist I need to say, I'm not criticizing you in any way.
If I read my last replay, you may get the impression that I'm pushing you towards the speeds that the iCP12 can handle.
It was late, and thought I may be in the right direction.
In sted in asking you 4 questions, it was better for me to let it rest and investigate it further.
My apologies.
QuoteI'll go in the garage to measure temporal shifting between IC output and primary coil signal (orange wire).
A constant temporal shifting will lead to a shifting in degree as rpm increases.
Ok, you mean that there could be components on the Oem CDI board that may cause the drifting.
Have seen serval T2333's, perhaps they are delaying the signal
Hi Louis
No problem at all ;D
The ICP12 is fast enough to handle the signals with a good resolution.
The test shows that the firmware is correct with respect to computational so drifting comes from elsewhere.
here the OEM curves (green in IC pin / white is orange wire)
No delay !!! :(
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_06.jpg&hash=460100213e531e81c9a5b6ff478101bf54c31380)
ICP12 curves (green in IC pin / white is orange wire)
the falling edge is not as sharp as expected >:( >:(
Maybe the electronic load is not very adapted to PIC output specification s.
I'll look at this.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FSignals_TDR250-2YK-CDI_07.jpg&hash=afd4f3242ff9ac804b9c00913b2e9d526f3e83f6)
We have things to look at so this is good.
That is interesting,
Have you tried different rpm's, to see if it is getting less sharp with higher rpm's?
New question from me ::)
Ar all ports equally on the iCP12? As when I change the wires from incoming pickup signal to outgoing signal
The results are the same? (in short terms Change pin 13 to 22 and 22 goes to 13)
You have conflagrate the iCP12 like:
-B0 as pickup signal (pin 22 on the oem board)
-C0 as ignition (pin 13 on the oem board)
Not understanding clearly your question Louis :(
Pickup signal should comes on B0 as this ICP12 pin is the Interrupt 0 one and my firmware is running the Int0 interrupt
C0 is configured to be a digital output set at high level (5v) in rest state and put to low (0V) to fire the ignition on falling edge.
I'll post a new firmware to see if I could handle the falling slope which delays the firing.
From graphical capture, there is about 20µs of delays which correspond to 240 TMR3 counting steps.
=> 1000rpm is 6000°/s => 16° is TMR3 = 32001 => 240/32001*100 = 0.75% error
=> 10000rpm is 60000°/s => 16° is TMR3 = 3201=> 240/3201*100 = 7.5% error
7.5% is a lot so maybe we found a solution.
I'll check with colleagues what can cause the slope too.
Check your email Louis on your web page email @tzr3ma.com.
The effect is 20µs delay with rpm :o
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FICP12-Delay.jpg&hash=5adb7baf3af6802a61bbf373a0b95694b0f2bce9)
QuoteNot understanding clearly your question Louis
Ok, I ones accidentally mixed up the C0 and B0, i didn't noticed it because the iCP12 was working like it suppose to be working.
So my question is, how is it possible that giving a pickup signal to C0, B0 gives a working signal back for the ignition
Just lucky? :)
QuoteI'll post a new firmware to see if I could handle the falling slope which delays the firing.
From graphical capture, there is about 20µs of delays which correspond to 240 TMR3 counting steps.
Ill test them tonight, give me a moment 8)
Got some results.
Sadly it's still moving :-[
Have don two tests
-one with the old 19 degrees file
-one with the new 19 degrees file
Both tests where the same. (Nothing has changed at the setup, two test where don in about 5 min)
Roughly its about this (depends a bid on how you have setup the disk +/- half degree)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fsheetnow_zps64a718f5.jpg&hash=8abf37185d362cea7df1a0cee0f8119fa9ad7c95)
Will send you this firmware
slope is about 0.5° per 1000rpm
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FICP12-Delay_02.jpg&hash=2184b511b477ee5e6029bc605d99be1153bbc2f0)
Ok will wait for it :)
Is it difficult to make one hex file with 0,5 degree slope and one with 1 degree slope?
Got it 8)
Unbelievable its exactly the same
How is this possible? Is my iCP12 broken?
I use the boot uploaded, upload your file (all good, no errors)
Swish the swish back to B for normal mode.
Can I do a quick experiment
Can I dridge pin 13 directly to pin 22? (pickup signal is same as outgoing signal)
And see how fast it is moving
Good idea or bad?
To late Olivier ;D, I just did it. I couldn't help my self, wanted to know 8)
Found something interesting.
Have connected pin 13 with pin 22
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fdoorverbonden_zpsdd17af25.jpg&hash=cc470668e5e2220713de0d0589d6882051030562)
I thought the ignition point would start moving quit fast. But what do you think.
ITS NOT MOVING AT ALL, ITS COMPLETE STEADY TROUGH THE RPM RANGE (STEADY AT 36 DEGREE)
what about that, could there be something on the OEM board that holds it steady?
Is the IC only calculating the degrees from the steady point.
What do you think?
Maybe try this steps :
- ICP12 not plugged, put the switch to bootload mode (A from memory)
- Plug ICP12 on USB, the leds toogle green/red
- Upload the firmware, should be no errors
- Unplug the ICP12 from USB
- Put the switch to normal mode (B)
- Plug the ICP12on OEM board (4 wires)
- Power the loom with 12v
- Green led should toogle slowly
The red led should starts when the electric motor rotates the rotor and sparks should been created.
So your experiment is mechanical angle is 36° on 3MA CDI, you are firing the ignition as soon as possible after the pickup signal :D.
This is a good point too.
My firmware is set at 35° ;)
QuoteMaybe try this steps :
- ICP12 not plugged, put the switch to bootload mode (A from memory)
- Plug ICP12 on USB, the leds toogle green/red
- Upload the firmware, should be no errors
- Unplug the ICP12 from USB
- Put the switch to normal mode (B)
- Plug the ICP12on OEM board (4 wires)
- Power the loom with 12v
- Green led should toogle slowly
That is no different from what I'm doing.
Isn't it strange that the Oem circuit board
without IC :o is holding a steady ignition point through the rpm range?
Thought i found something interesting.
QuoteSo your experiment is mechanical angle is 36° on 3MA CDI
35 or 36 it was a bid between.
The IC is only there to wait a delay after the pickup signal before firing the ignition.
So as the signal forms are similar 5V and active on falling edge to 0V, you could plug pickup to ignition.
For the ICP12, you can try to upload in the original firmware from piccircuit and use the smartDAQ windows application to see if ICP12 works.
Keep me posted.
QuoteThe IC is only there to wait a delay after the pickup signal before firing the ignition
Ok, I thought holding it steady was the big problem.
Can we not use this?
To hold a steady 35 degrees you have to do some advance calculations to, what component on the OEM board is calculating this? (with rising rpm)
Is it not possible to measure this and see how much it is delaying the signal to hold it so steady as it is.
We can compute it back to hold a 19 degrees steady
QuoteKeep me posted.
Will do
Olivier, do you want me to lend you my timing light (with shift) ?
No calculation is needed to hold a 36° steady advance.
35° is the mechanical angle before the TDC when the lobe passes the pickup.
Direct connection is no delay => fire as soon as the pickup detects the lobe.
To make a 19° steady flat ignition, you have to wait 16° from 35° to get the 19°.
But the delay is linked to rotation speed in °/s so the faster your engine turns less time you need to wait to get the 16°.
I'll try to borrow a numerical signal generator to run some tests.
Bike will have to go back to running setup as a track day is booked next Monday at Pau Arnos ;)
http://www.circuit-pau-arnos.fr/page_accueil.php?language=en (http://www.circuit-pau-arnos.fr/page_accueil.php?language=en)
Quote from: Toop on September 09, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Olivier, do you want me to lend you my timing light (with shift) ?
Thanks TOOP but my car mechanic will lend me his facom one as soon as he has setup his 300 GAS-GAS :D
QuoteNo calculation is needed to hold a 36° steady advance.
35° is the mechanical angle before the TDC when the lobe passes the pickup.
Direct connection is no delay => fire as soon as the pickup detects the lobe.
To make a 19° steady flat ignition, you have to wait 16° from 35° to get the 19°.
But the delay is linked to rotation speed in °/s so the faster your engine turns less time you need to wait to get the 16°.
You are completely right
I was already lying in bed ::), where I figure it out I'm thinking way to difficult :(
(My mind was fixed on finding a steady point, and there you had it, wasn't thinking further)
36 degrees is a fixed position, like the old femsa ignitions (only one point)
Off to bed now (again), Good night ;D
will do the same... lecturing on mecatronics tomorrow :D
Will go to my car mechanic very soon as he has to fix my commuter car so I'll take the strobe timing light from him ;)
So IC thread will go on again :D
QuoteSo IC thread will go on again
Great :)
Have order a USB two channel oscilloscope to see if I can measure the same results as you.
Could be handy for future development, and knowledge for me to understand the CDI better.
I'll be interested in your results
I'll have to setup some tests to be more efficient in developing.
I may need to have a bench like you Louis.
QuoteI'll have to setup some tests to be more efficient in developing.
If all goes well, my usb two channel oscilloscope is getting here next week.
I could provide you with some data at different revs.
Is it not possible to read out the old IC in order to see how they write it?
Perhaps they revile some secrets ???
The IC could be close to the : FUJITSU MB88P505H series.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2FjuisteIC_zps622c0df8.jpg&hash=d3cb06e2ba95d75bef2d0ee3c82cab51bdbe5cb1)
QuoteI may need to have a bench like you Louis
If you feel like making something, here is the build off my ignition tester
(but think you need twice the power/speed of that engine to let it rev more) ::)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/start-build.html
Well today came my USB two channel oscilloscope and I immediately put it in action 8)
Instead of giving me answers, it gave me more questions :o
First thing was to measure the Oem IC, so soldered some wires to measure the IC working
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FdradenaanIC_zps6e21a18d.jpg&hash=2ea744d2787e609694c3ad22491f65c62e9f5117)
-Pickup signal
-Ignition signal
-two mass
First od thing I discover is that the 3MA CDI is working without IC.
Without IC i measured 19degrees and going down to 17 degree when RPM is rising (same as with the iCP12 connected)
So first question is, way is it working without IC and where is the Circuit board getting his signal
is the pickup signal split into two signals
-IC signal
-Circuit board signal
Second od thing:
First impression is that it looks like the Pickup signal is changing in length when you turn the TPS sensor.
Here you have a snapshot with TPS in full throttle position (Green signal)
You see the short second pulse is now small
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2F111111tps_zpsfe39a77c.png&hash=48fc6b18ba82d0b6ad532bcf33814678f6e2437b)
Here you have a snapshot with the TPS in closes position
And now the short pulse is long
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2F00000tps_zpsed40ca3e.png&hash=5e554b4cd23ce0b03b5e1a643d3f49d1c21e6e37)
Also it looks like the ignition point it self is placed in the middle of nowhere.
It is getting late now, will measure it further tomorrow.
Olivier, can you check one thing for me.
Does your bike start/run, without any IC or iCP12?
Louis
have you traced out the circuit board of the CDI to produce an internal wiring diagram ?
This may answer some of your questions.
Hello Jools,
I'm trying to do that, but its not my field off expertise (so going slow) :-[
Also the wax that is glued on the CDI, does not help me to find the routes the signal travels.
Still workibg on that.
What did I discover today:
It seems that the IC pickup signal is coming from the T2333 on pin4
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FT2333samesiganlpin4_zps46567a18.png&hash=85543caad01d884a8d45f8c418d65f598e49b173)
The T2333 seems to be something like a Pulls conditioning device making a digital signal from analog signal
But it generate also different pulses (perhaps used on a other part of the circuit board)
ALso noticed that the Pickup is having a ''noise'' when ignition rpm rises
Clean signal low rpm:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FpickupsignalvsICpickupsignal_zps23ce6583.png&hash=d520576ce75f820aa40ba547ae9d3143aad009a4)
Noise at the fist part:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fpickupvirsespickupsignalic_zps228c51d9.png&hash=ddd782e74f50ae86f9d8cd13369e469e5be7f352)
Here we have some snapshots with no IC (nothing controls the CDI)
When RPM is rising you see slowly that the two points are shifting:
35Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fnoicpickignition3568hz_zps555420e0.png&hash=b33a39fa820e0227b949939907f565752fd43abc)
68HZ
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fnoicpickignition6818hz_zpsc7312e10.png&hash=53f79e6c301f04c61bf431689f455b5b8411f3e8)
118HZ
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fnoicpickignition1180hz_zps42acfb9f.png&hash=5b2862a890d3c0c5f8a1ea47d48b678c10c927ec)
455Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Fnoicpickignition4554_zpsd3388d39.png&hash=6fc32b41090b65f7ec6c971e54eb1ee3386d6467)
Now I'm thinking something else.
Would it be possible that the 19degrees is hardwired in the CDI unit (du to different components like the T2333)
That the IC is only calculating different degrees from that point (19) when it hits a certain RPM
The timing light is confirming that theory na bid, as when the engine revs very low rpm's you see it shifting to (with oem ic)
When going from 350rpm to a 800rpm you se the degrees moving to, until it hits the 19degrees than it is stable
(it feels like the IC is taking over)
But it will probably be me thinking to difficult ;D
Hi Louis,
What signal is on the 3rd picture ? In Yellow with 2 square signal... the pickup ???
I've seem this form of square on the TDR250 CDI I'm playing with.
My firmware is firing the spark at each falling edge so having 2 falling edges will mess it >:(
I'll read you text later today.
Good points with you USB oscilloscope.
Olivier.
QuoteWhat signal is on the 3rd picture ? In Yellow with 2 square signal... the pickup
Yes, that is pickup pulse (black/whit wire) vs ignition signal (orange wire)
QuoteMy firmware is firing the spark at each falling edge so having 2 falling edges will mess it >:(
I thought it is strange to.
The IC incoming pickupsignal on pin22, has a normal shape in low rpm's till about 55HZ
Then it is getting a second pulse, and that pulse you can set wider by turning at the TPS sensor.
Ill do a quick test with no IC and see if the shape stays the same
Give me a moment :)
OK
The TDR does not have TPS so no effect but high RPM could generate the analog electronic to miss work (or work differently ;) ).
I'll look how my firmware could be setup to react on first falling edge and ignore the second one (software blanking).
Olivier.
I should pickup the timing light this week ;)
QuoteI should pickup the timing light this week
Ok, great :)
have some results.
Pickup signal measured on the black/white wire vs. Pin 22 incoming signal IC (with no IC placed)
Fist shot is at 52Hz (both signals are as expected)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FNoICpickupvsicpickupsignal52Hz_zps1dc76cc7.png&hash=db5f5648b5747bd0e65a196c410d442d539d5eb5)
Second shot is at 56Hz (Now the pickup signal is changing with a second pulse)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FNoICpickupvsicpickupsignal56Hz_zps210d7fdf.png&hash=bc5634e1a99614abf443b5f771decd655963d846)
Third shot is at higher rpm. (you see the pickup signal is still split up by two pulses till 12000rpm I think)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2FNoICpickupvsicpickupsignal126Hz_zps712948ce.png&hash=95e9edbb5eb177440949c52867e83e63df777a9f)
As you can see Olivier, the incoming pickup IC signal is staying the same. (Measured with no IC placed)
But the signal is given by the rising edge of the pickup signal.
When the oem IC is placed the incoming IC pickup signal is changeable by turning at the TPS sensor.
OK so what is important is that the green signal (to IC pin) stays with only on pulse from 5v to 0v and back.
Can you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?
Maybe advance is calculated from rising edge.
QuoteOK so what is important is that the green signal (to IC pin) stays with only on pulse from 5v to 0v and back.
The incoming pickup IC signal stays as one pulse from 0 till 5V all the time :)
QuoteCan you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?
Here I have made two snap shots (50HZ and 150HZ), with all the thinks I can measure.
It looks like its pretty stable
50HZ
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Finkomendepickupsignalic56Hz_zps8ca6edd2.png&hash=d80b82ebd7cf0d97f3402d09884c55150314f1c5)
150HZ
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Finkomendepickupsignalic150Hz_zps7b3335c3.png&hash=370658ebdbdbb2a37b11f6d405c444a54c04c830)
Wanted to do more, but I'm limited at what my testing machine can spin :-[
QuoteMaybe advance is calculated from rising edge.
Yes, think it is
Updated my site with the info I have now, perhaps it gives you some new thoughts
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
QuoteCan you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?
After a closer inspection, looks like its not that stable:
50Hz 150HZ
Pulse width + 17.0ms Pulse width + 6,2ms
Pulse width - 770 us Pulse width - 442us
The rest is looking relative equally to each other.
Does this mean we have a problem?
Quote from: Louis on October 05, 2014, 02:35:14 PM
Does this mean we have a problem?
No there is only solution ;)
I could do a firmware for rising edge to test.
I'll calculate the low pulse width in degree according to signal frequency of the pickup.
This frequency is double real RPM on the 3MA as it is waisted spark.
Maybe we will found the lobe length.
Olivier.
Quote from: Louis on October 05, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
QuoteOK so what is important is that the green signal (to IC pin) stays with only on pulse from 5v to 0v and back.
The incoming pickup IC signal stays as one pulse from 0 till 5V all the time :)
QuoteCan you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?
Here I have made two snap shots (50HZ and 150HZ), with all the thinks I can measure.
It looks like its pretty stable
50HZ
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Finkomendepickupsignalic56Hz_zps8ca6edd2.png&hash=d80b82ebd7cf0d97f3402d09884c55150314f1c5)
150HZ
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTZR250%2520FORUM%2Finkomendepickupsignalic150Hz_zps7b3335c3.png&hash=370658ebdbdbb2a37b11f6d405c444a54c04c830)
Wanted to do more, but I'm limited at what my testing machine can spin :-[
QuoteMaybe advance is calculated from rising edge.
Yes, think it is
Updated my site with the info I have now, perhaps it gives you some new thoughts
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
Hi Louis,
have you thought of looking whether a cheap woodworking router would be better for testing ?
They can spin up to 20,000 rpm and would be plenty powerful I would think ? You might need to design a better variable speed control though.
Hello Jools,
Yes, I have thought about them.
But they have a small axel, it would be difficult to hold the heavy Flywheel. (I think)
This type off engine has a relative thick axel which can hold a bid off load, and they can be controlled perfectly.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Ftype-plaat.jpg&hash=15bb5a22064afd4e58db5ce84e06de11cec4e100)
It has the power to spin to about 11500rpm. (now you see how much energy the ignition cost. ;D)
Max rpm I have is about 5000rpm with running ignition.
For now I will need to work with this.
When I come to testing the 3MA-10 CDI's, it will be better as it don't need a generator to generate the power for the CDI
It can just spin freely to its 11500rpm :)
It was me agents the Yamaha designers 8)
Think have found something interesting, with could lead us to solving problems.
Have uploaded my site with my findings.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
Conclusion;
Pin 22 is not a incoming signal, but a outgoing signal
Pin 13 is a incoming signal.
A picture says more than a 1000 words.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fgate-vs-ignition-in-high-rpm.jpg&hash=c08110bd4d6d6eb17bfb4312360554e73768f705)
Its the outgoing IC signal (As we thought) vs Thyristor gate, not logical that its not the same.
(it moves wile rpm is rising, tricker it self in the middle of nowhere)
What do you guys think?
As it is still not my field off expertise. (in other words I could have it wrong ::))
I've pickup the timing light Friday.
I'll read carefully your stuff tomorrow afternoon (got a tennis match tomorrow morning !!!)
I'll try to watch in replay the Japanese MotoGP too.
;D ;D Have found the problem ;D ;D.
It seems that the oem IC is activating on the circuitboard a route witch allows the pickup signal to travel to pin 13
Ones the oem IC is removed that circuit is not activated and no signal is coming to pin 13.
I have follow the route from pin13 to the beloved T2333 and found out that this component is doing all the hard work.
Her you have some more info, scroll down to 13-10-14
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
Olivier your firmware works great 8) (perhaps some minor adjustments for the new values)
But other words perfect. :)
Here you have a quick run with your firm ware. (ignore the 21/22 degrees you see as I don't have the disk calibrated)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FfsZ3fFes0&feature=youtu.be
Busted it >:D
At work the video plugin crashes so I've not seen yet your video on experiment :(
Restart firefox to initialize the video plug in can't wait to see the result :D
We need to sort a clear document on wiring the ICP12 to the OEM board.
Was :
// Analogic To Digital
// ADC_YPVS -> AN0 <=> Pin 36
// ADC_TPS -> AN1 <=> Pin 35
// ADC_SPEED -> AN2 <=> Pin 33
// Logical Outputs
// BLINK_LED -> RB4
// STROBE_LED -> RB2
// RED_LED -> RB5
// YPVS_OPEN -> RA3 <=> Pin 5 and 8
// YPVS_CLOSE -> RA5 <=> Pin 6 and 7
// AIR_JET1 -> RC1 <=> Pin 27 or 26
// AIR_JET2 -> RC2 <=> Pin 26 or 27
// IGNITION -> RC0 <=> Pin 22
// Interrupt
// PICKUP -> RB0 <=> Pin 13
As I understand the ICP12 RB0 should not be connected to Pin 13 of the OEM IC but directly to T2333 at pin 4.
Maybe a jump wire from T2333 Pin4 to OEM IC Pin 13 could do.
Here the TDR250 2YK OEM board.
Look very similar to 3MA so T2333 should be easy to find.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_10.jpg&hash=040bff2fe6b949c5a2ee8b585ed998ff7ab40bce)
Yes, here it is :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Ft2333olivier_zpsa650d8c4.jpg&hash=885d2767340f13c621a7940ce92835f03e39500d)
QuoteAs I understand the ICP12 RB0 should not be connected to Pin 13 of the OEM IC but directly to T2333 at pin 4.
Yes, that is correct.
QuoteMaybe a jump wire from T2333 Pin4 to OEM IC Pin 13 could do.
That's is possible, I just soldered it on pin4 for a quick tryout.
Perhaps we can bridge it, I could measure all the pins on the Oem IC where a 5V is found.
Then measure all the pins (on the circuit board) with no IC mounted.
If i can find one witch is different, I could give him a 5v from pin21 and see if the pickup signal travels all the way.
But what concerns me a bid is that strange pulls on the block on pin13, how will the iCP12 react on that? If we use that signal?
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2FIC-pin13-vs-before-diode.jpg&hash=cf76b871c4e6b50bb7190eed8251b26237ecf844)
React from work so no CDI there...
The little artifact should be ignored by ICP12 as the IC is checking the falling edge and it is detected when voltage goes below a given value so no problem.
From PIC documentation
* For Output Pin
- Hight Steady state is above 4.3v with 5v VCC
- Low Steady state is below 0.6v with
* For Input Pin
- Hight Steady state is above 2v with 5v VCC
- Low Steady state is below 0.75v with 5v VCC
Which signal is the white curve ?
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2FIC-pin13-vs-before-diode.jpg&hash=cf76b871c4e6b50bb7190eed8251b26237ecf844)
QuoteWhich signal is the white curve ?
(White) curve is before diode (now I know fore sure) vs pin 13 (green) :)
I couldn't help my self I had to know ::)
Updated my site (last part)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
This is the tiny problem maker, a small Diode.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fdiode-on-pin-13.jpg&hash=2991cd6145e8641178ecd6841f204ab500ac1723)
Questions ;D
-Way do they place it there?
-Do they use it as some kind off filter?
-Do we have any info on this type?
-Does the TDR has one on the same pace?
After studying diode's on the net, found how the CDI it is working.
Give me a moment I'm updating my site
Its great
Site up to date :) (scroll to the bottom)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Flopende-motor.jpg&hash=c18dbbb820fa0d6cf361c71c9f4a7799d91fbba2)
This picture says it all.
Here a quick movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muOzuSt1qEM&feature=youtu.be
(Green) pin 13 on IC, going from 0V to 5V
(yellow) before diode, going from 5V to 0V
Looks quit nice, and logical now
The Oem IC has a constant 5V outgoing signal, as it can do that because the diode is not blocking that current direction
The pickup signal (tricker point) has a mass signal, so when it is giving a mass signal, the IC (pin 13) can only follow it and goes to mass to.
That mass period is the pulse where the IC can work with.
Not bad he, for just basic understanding off electronics ;D
Now I have a understanding how it is working, hope you guys to.
Cheers
Amazing work guys, I think I'm beginning to understand it better when I go back and read the whole lot in one go............I think ;D
Don't pretend to even understand half on what these guys are doing but it seems to me that when they're finished, it will be a benefit to us all, stunning stuff.
For the diode there is 2 types :
- standard ones like LED or rectification diode
- zener ones
A diode allows an electric current to pass in one direction and bloc the other way
With 4 diodes, you setup bridge to convert alternating current to direct current.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode)
I think here the diode is to prevent reverse current or if it is a zener diode to cut the voltage to a given value.
Need to investigate.
Which firmware did to test ? The first One with steady 19° ?
A think mechanical steady angle has to be set to 36° (not 35°) when you tested with no IC.
I"ll build a new firmwares today (at lunch time).
I'll build
On your little video, when the CDI is power on 12v then both curves go from 0v to 5v.
When rotation starts then pickup sensor pull the voltage to 0v for some milliseconds.
Does this low voltage square wave varies in time whit RPM or is stable ?
On the TDR CDI, multi meter beeps (contact) between T2333 pin 4 to IC pin 13 (no IC on).
Will remove the hot glue to follow the tracks ;)
On the TDR CDI a direct track (0.1 or 0.0 Ohms) has been found so far ;)
Only one capacitor for noise filtering (connected to ground / yellow).
blue is top side track / Red bottom side track
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_31.jpg&hash=c3bcde2c4a6db3f69e49dc78663165b6404d95da)
QuoteDoes this low voltage square wave varies in time whit RPM or is stable
It varies with rpm, but the duty cycle seems to bee holding steady.
Have made a couple off snap shots at 32hz, 60hz, 102hz, 130hz
It looks like the duty cycle is holding
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fpicup32hz_zps62371f8e.jpg&hash=26e065b80ebec75bd2b71fb252ba34935f26ca66)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fpicup60hz_zps347dfdc9.jpg&hash=4d3b4a12b26ef1226f63648f5e7701ccb09522f5)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fpicup102hz_zpsa36b88aa.jpg&hash=c47d738117f53b2fd79b8211c971dafcdae2f5a6)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fpicup102hz_zpsa36b88aa.jpg&hash=c47d738117f53b2fd79b8211c971dafcdae2f5a6)
Could it have influence that the iCP12 is programmed for getting a 5V pulse, wile in practice it is getting a 5V constant with a mass pulse?
Does this not mixup the rising and fouling edge?
Her is a snap shot off your software with the iCP12 (52hz and 120hz)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Foliviersotware_zpsa92fb15f.jpg&hash=6f73adb35a016e16ba1afc0afc6c591007f96e88)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Foliviersotware120hz_zpsbc2ba14e.jpg&hash=1823cc21717bcb9633d492b563d5aa567c46eca9)
Think the complexity off the 3MA makes it difficult for me, i can't hardly follow any route :-[
Looking at your TDR CDI you can already see that pin22 goes to the T2333 on pin6 :)
Your firmware is working on your TDR CDI, as it has no diode at the end. Your signal is getting on pin13.
T2333 gives his signal almost directly to pin 13.
Think the TPS sensor on the 3MA CDI is making it difficult to understand what it is doing.
For example:
Have made a couple off snapshots of pin4 (green) from the T2333 vs Pin13 (yellow) Oem IC in.
All working logical till 59hz, after 60hz there is get a difference between them up to Max I can measure
Also turning at the TPS sensor at the (example)125hz is making a difference.
Till 59hz all good.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F5963hz_zps9d2ebf72.jpg&hash=4a1bd68690842e5ab162c5a83c84accc3e2a6a5d)
61hz starts moving
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F6184hz_zps3ee00502.jpg&hash=d3c8fefd8cbd1b47aaace6c7b4cd481d04929402)
100hz its the same shifting
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F100hz_zpsbf018442.jpg&hash=650c6c4af748c811bfa867c4ad1d9846d88b0ea8)
It is getting stranger if I turn the TPS sensor (125hz)
TPS at 0
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F1248hztps0_zpse92f4903.jpg&hash=abb37745ba7debab929910dfcacd4f7ee3c91176)
TPS at 1
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F125hztps1_zpsbe2965ef.jpg&hash=0fbd670b3040343abadd64e76f54bb8e88500ff1)
It is strange there is a movement on the pickup signal.
Could be that that small diode is doing something, but I doubt if it is changing the length of a pulse
Will measure between pin4 off the T2333 and start off the diode and see if it changes then
But on overall it seems like the incoming pickup signal is a steady pulse (when no IC is placed)
Only its a mass pulse, hope this wont make it harder for the iCP12
Looking at the influence of TPS signal on pickup signal make me think on several things :
- TPS resistor value could change the RC circuit which create the low voltage time
- If so then rising edge is the important signal to start counting the advance
Can you check the effect of several values (or position) of TPS for a given frequency (or RPM) ?
-> capturing the curves on the oscilloscope
-> look with the time light is advance is affected
If the modification is only hardware (couple RC giving the low time) we should see it.
After typing my previous post, I rushed back to my workshop :)
QuoteIf the modification is only hardware (couple RC giving the low time) we should see it.
I may have a answer for that
Measured pin4 from the T2333 till start diode pin13
Signals are exactly the same all through the rpm range, no interfering from the TPS is noticed.
Only when measured directly on pin13, TPS shifting is noticed.
Seems like the signal on pin13 is changing, T2333 signal stays the same
Here a (very) small movie, swishing between pin13 IC and (before) diode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNjlHx1Gz50&feature=youtu.be
Could it not be that I'm measuring the limit off the diode.
When pulled to mass (from the pickup signal) the current from the IC can only follow, but when receiving the 5V back doesn't the diode needs time to block the 5V signal coming from the pickup (I'm reading on serval info sites that there is a 0,6 or 0,7V starting/blocking point)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuk.co.uk%2FOtherImages%2Fcurrent-voltage-graph-zener-diode.gif&hash=59aa287e2f601e12f4ac1cd668dfeed26401ca69)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fcurvedaway_zpsa5a7c791.jpg&hash=ec3b3127748e08e81fa05ae11ade019935e50071)
As the block signal isent that straight, it is curved away, like it needs time or charging it self
The fouling edge stays the same (first point from 5V till 0V) For both signals
Olivier,
Have found a way to compare the iCP12 (19 degree firmware) with the Oem IC (19 degrees)
Have done some quick tests and it looks promising :)
It has to do with testing them on exactly the same Hz. and compare the measurements.
I'm free this Saturday so try to get some good snapshots.
Will let you know.
Think we are close
During next 2 weeks it is kids holiday here so I'll have to take some days out from work. :D
I'll run some timing light sessions in the garage ;)
Yes tests back to back ICP12 vs OEM is good.
We need to know what modifications to signals the TPS and the Speed sensors do.
After some research about the understanding off the incoming (pickup) signal and the outgoing (ignition) signal.
And how to get and use the signal 8)
See here for the final research:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
It was getting time to focus on the iCP12 to get it working correct
One off those thinks was to find the static angular were Olivier can build its program on.
Olivier has posted me servile firmware's to test (going as far as making a 36,5 degrees static angular firmware :o great work)
Here you have some more info, on how we get there:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/getting-the-icp12-ready-for-use.html
But in the end the 37 degrees static angular is the one we need.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F37-at-60%2C1Hz.jpg&hash=5f6c37fafb46cb82853e6b968f1ffa91b3397ea5)
Now we know the static angular. The next thing to solve it the sifting of degrees when rpm rises.
(First part the shifting goes faster, but in the end it seems to go slowly)
From a +/-1000rpm to a 4000rpm it moves 1 degree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stTqp04fqQM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stTqp04fqQM&feature=youtu.be)
But I'm sure we gona solve that to
Quote from: Louis on October 19, 2014, 11:24:05 AM
But in the end the 37 degrees static angular is the one we need.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F37-at-60%2C1Hz.jpg&hash=5f6c37fafb46cb82853e6b968f1ffa91b3397ea5)
Why are you looking for edge alignment ?
Green is the pickup signal
Yellow is ?
QuoteWhy are you looking for edge alignment ?
I noticed that the oem IC has this alignment to. Think it is the static angle alignment
Shown with the scope :)
Here you have the oem IC at 60Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2FoemIC60Hz_zps2e1446eb.jpg&hash=62c141778b2b5076491caa80976a3fafb51eb963)
You see its the same point ;)
QuoteGreen is the pickup signal
Yellow is ?
Green is pickup
yellow is ignition pin 22
Here you have the oem IC at 100Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Foemic100Hz_zps3994e232.jpg&hash=97cd5fd5d0e6c000d00e3596c9439ed68a5d950a)
It is still there
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Foemic100Hzchang_zps1a2c0ea0.jpg&hash=e84e4d0ae3bdb8c389409d3bea272dbec9a3aafa)
Only the pulls in frond is changing with rpm or tps movement.
I've tried to do timing light this afternoon but seems that till now I'm not able to setup correctly the light and/or the disk.
the timing light default setup is :
- 4 cylinders / 4strokes
- 1 spark per 2 rpm
Manage to setup to 2 sparks per rpm so RPM reading was correct.
Was not able to have a steady figure on the disk... >:(
Here my disk.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTiming-disk_01.jpg&hash=b67cf9c9cc4fee64240a5bbc19bd8659e3db45ab)
QuoteWas not able to have a steady figure on the disk... >:(
Think it will be difficult to let the 2XT engine run that stable (like a electro motor)
Although the base advange should be readable in a certain rpm range (like 750 till 1500 rpm)
How many degrees did you have?
QuoteHere my disk.
Disk is looking fine :)
Perhaps a extension point closer to your disc would help
I'll setup a reading point bolt on the crank case.
Maybe the light was not setup properly ???
Olivier,
You mailed me a ignition firmware curve, how did it go?
Had the feeling it was jumping from 20 to 30?
Can you make one from19 till 30 degrees from 1000rpm till 4000rpm
The curved one is :
RPM : 500 1000 1500 2000 ..... 15000
CDI : 19 19 19 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 25 21 17 14 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
I'll make one with linear evolution of Curve from 19° to 30° between 500rpm and 4000rpm
Louis,
I'll email you this curve to test
Blue = theoretical (floating point)
Red = experimental (interger)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FCDI-Curve3.jpg&hash=d436ab5a0bcca01ca13b80dc919689b456af8c70)
Got it :) (saved on a usb stick)
Gona eat first ;D will post the results later tonight
I'll save time tomorrow to go in the garage :D
I've printed a counter clockwise timing disk so CDI advance will be read at TDC.
Louis in your tests with ICP12: do you use IC pin 13 or T2333 pin 4 ?
Hello Olivier,
QuoteLouis in your tests with ICP12: do you use IC pin 13 or T2333 pin 4 ?
T2333 pin 4 :)
Got some results, but difficult to tell what I have got :-[
It looks like the firmware is not stable, it is dancing on some parts
Here you have a quick movie off the curve. (Its more stable on the higher rpm range)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVus5aanvJU&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVus5aanvJU&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA)
You certainly see the movement off the ignition curve :)
Think it has something to do with the different outgoing signals. Witch probably the iCP12 doesn't suppose to do that
Some snap shots
Bigin in rpm till about 80Hz it got different extra pulses, witch probably cause the dancing off the ignition point
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F7683Hz_zpsaff8b8a4.jpg&hash=7d83419ee30faeae1d7be46292b4163e74e956ea)
Later it is getting a kinda, one pulse from about 80Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F93Hz_zps537946ca.jpg&hash=145d9df9f1deb642a5af83fd32002c8c1d1747cf)
That pulse is later around 130hz sometimes one long pulse are a split long pulse. (seen in one snap shot)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F136Hz_zps252eef41.jpg&hash=377ed854d7b6f670f494dda4c13ee83953f596c1)
But the outcome on the timing light vs timing discs is relative good :)
Did got a 28 degrees at 4000rpm relative steady
Perhaps we need some kind off filter on the mass signal, like a 0V with a tolerance
Can you test steady rpm values and report the measured values on timing disk
- 500 => 19°
- 1000 => 20°
- 1500 => 22°
- 2000 => 23°
- 2500 => 24°
- 3000 => 25°
- 3500 => 27°
- 4000 => 28°
Ill will try, But it will be difficult its not that stable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVus5aanvJU&list=UUJ-OK_OH_WZ_QFL6eqcVPMA
On the movie you can see the rpm vs degrees. (the small digital tacho on top is the reason I placed it there :) )
(If you stop the movie and go step by step you can see many degrees)
The precision needed is stable at +-0.5° around the target (FPE kart engine builder http://www.fperacing.com/ (http://www.fperacing.com/)).
It seems OK on the movie from 2300rpm to 4000rpm.
QuoteIt seems OK on the movie from 2300rpm to 4000rpm.
That's the range where the two ignition pulses go to one. :)
I don't see why we get 2 ignitions falling edge at low rpm.
Will try to look at but difficult to reproduce here...
Done some tests with good results :D
Stick me new timing disk counter clockwise.
So 19° should more or less like in the picture. ;)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTiming-disk_02.jpg&hash=a316d1a666264175754986547a3b3cf35cb005fb)
Here is a picture of disk during strobing
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTiming-disk_04.jpg&hash=82a831cfc1ce2316969ef3c286f42c748643c5fc)
I'm using ICP12 with 36.5° of mechanical angle and 19° steady flat curve.
Not easy to do the testing alone :o
TZR throttle locked in one position to try to have a stable rpm
Timing light in one hand and mobile phone in the other. ;D
Pretty stable through RPM change.
Will post a video later on. Download the file for playing it
http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_36-5_19.mp4 (http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_36-5_19.mp4)
I should try this curve...
Stored in ICP12 code as Curve2 ;)
Curve1 is flat 19°
A shame I've no country road nearby the garage :(
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FCurve3MA-1_8-1_4.jpg&hash=31f4a4506a911015d004a52a158c7530beab34ef)
Hello Olivier,
QuoteNot easy to do the testing alone :o
TZR throttle locked in one position to try to have a stable rpm
Timing light in one hand and mobile phone in the other. ;D
But it worked great, a nice snap shot. :)
QuotePretty stable through RPM change.
Yes, the flat curves are stable on a solid RPM range.
I only had about one degree shifting from 1000rpm till 4000rpm.
The problem that I have now with the new curve firmware that it is dancing.
Also on the rpm where it should be steady like the 800rpm at +/-20 degrees.
I'm planning to measure now on the iCP12 to see if some mass or voltage is dropping/pulsing :-\
QuoteStored in ICP12 code as Curve2 ;)
Curve1 is flat 19°
That is new, sounds like a great option 8)
Olivier,
Think I found the problem, could be a big one.
Don't know if the TDR CDI does the same, but here it goes.
We know the 3MA CDI still works when no IC is placed, at first i thought this is no big problem but now thinks changed
You see here a snap shot if the 3MA CDI without no IC
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F3MACDIandignitionpoint_zpsf87544b0.jpg&hash=22fc1cc2a64357e41f6b5fdf0e5c63c44db80986)
Here you see a snap shot with Olivier firmware (19 flat 33 mechanical)
You see the CDI ignition pulse is still there, but now with Olivier firmware pulse in frond of it
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F3MACDIandignitionpointandolivier_zpsfc7b28c5.jpg&hash=e69e8b69f73928ca4a13353697da5490ce94d90f)
The only way to take away the CDI ignition point is the give pin three on the T2333 a mass signal (soldered black wire witch i can give mass)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2FT2333worked_zpsee7c6db2.jpg&hash=e72a4dda7543caa8e364193489eb5fd467b11f4d)
Then only the firmware off Olivier is active, but it generates on the T2333 a pulse that is taken over to the pickup signal
So sadly the ignition point is always the same. in all RPM range
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fpointolivier_zpsffcc493c.jpg&hash=6e899eede68d162bdae0ef1b71c301eaa8d7f975)
Thinking off two thinks now
1) Or we have to let the firm ware work together with the CDI signal (signal somewhere from on the board)
2) Or we have to cut off that signal and let the iCP12 directly work in the thyristor. (or something close to that)
Now we know that the CDI ignition is always there, measurement in the parts are getting more logical to.
The sometimes strange extra pulse seen on measurement is nothing more than Olivier firmware copied over the CDI signal.
Firmware testing 36 static (example)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2F37-at-60%2C1Hz.jpg&hash=5f6c37fafb46cb82853e6b968f1ffa91b3397ea5)
Now we know
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fvernder37-at-601Hz_zpsc73b8466.jpg&hash=b876c4bacd92d5b7ffae787624d1c395a73db658)
Still trying to work thinks out
Quote from: Louis on October 26, 2014, 03:50:17 PM
Olivier,
Think I found the problem, could be a big one.
Don't know if the TDR CDI does the same, but here it goes.
We know the 3MA CDI still works when no IC is placed, at first i thought this is no big problem but now thinks changed
You see here a snap shot if the 3MA CDI without no IC
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F3MACDIandignitionpoint_zpsf87544b0.jpg&hash=22fc1cc2a64357e41f6b5fdf0e5c63c44db80986)
I'll try to handle this slowly ;)
Is this a capture when pin13 is directly connected to pin22 ?
QuoteIs this a capture when pin13 is directly connected to pin22 ?
No, its the measurement
without no IC placed.Measured on Pin 13 (before diode) and pin Pin 22 ignition.
I have followed the whole route that pin4 off the T2333 travels to the Thyristor gate.
(it only cam across one transistor, and a couple off resistors)
I'm thinking now that the T2333 is generating this so called ''CDI Pulse''
Want to remove the T2333 and connect the iCP12 on pin 4 and 6.
From what i can see it rules out the CDI pulse.
This plan needs some investigation :)
Do you mean that CDI is firing the ignition without the IC ?
I thought that you have connected directly the input from the pickup (pin13) to the Ignition signal (output) on pin22.
QuoteDo you mean that CDI is firing the ignition without the IC ?
Yes, it does.
Would like to know if the TDR CDI does the same?
QuoteI thought that you have connected directly the input from the pickup (pin13) to the Ignition signal (output) on pin22.
Yes don that ones, it gave the static angular off about 36 a 37 degrees
Quote from: Louis on October 26, 2014, 03:50:17 PM
Here you see a snap shot with Olivier firmware (19 flat 33 mechanical)
You see the CDI ignition pulse is still there, but now with Olivier firmware pulse in frond of it
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F3MACDIandignitionpointandolivier_zpsfc7b28c5.jpg&hash=e69e8b69f73928ca4a13353697da5490ce94d90f)
Louis,
How do you know that ignition is fired on the second rising edge and not the first one from my firmware ?
I've got a day off tomorrow so I'll try to escape from house to the garage ;D
QuoteHow do you know that ignition is fired on the second rising edge and not the first one from my firmware ?
It does fire on your pulse :)
But the CDI pulse stays all the time, so you can't go lower than that 19 degrees.
And also the scope light seems to be weird, like its firing two times in one ignition pulse.
Think by removing the T2333, i have emulated that CDI pulse and only your firmware would run
(like putting pin 3 from the T2333 to mass)
Perhaps this shows better, your firmware curve on the iCP12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhVY25EtgH0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhVY25EtgH0&feature=youtu.be)
You see start and end its walking away but the CDI pulse is always staying
Maybe my firmware needs to keep the ignition signal at low level (0v) for a longer time.
Actually low time is 0.4ms
I could send you a new firmware:
- 36.5° mechanical angle
- 19° flat curve
- long low state => 1ms or more.
Can you make a video with OEM IC of same signals :
- pickup
- ignition
It seems that pickup rising edge is pulling ignition signal to 0V for a given time.
Is this time constant or linked to RPM (frequency).
You mean Making the width off you pulse wider so it over rules the CDI Pulse.
Could be nice to try to see if it is giving a better results.
Can you make it much longer Like four times what it is now (1,6ms) or more (so it definitely rules out the CDI Pulse)
That could work in the low revs going from 19 degrees to 30 degrees, but at higher RPM you should drop below 19 and go to 14 till 5 etc
But the CDI Pulse wont let you becouse it is set on 19 degrees.
There fore I like to remove that strange CDI Pulse and only use the pickup signal and your ignition signal :)
The 19° advance is obtained by timing between :
- the falling edge of pickup signal
- the falling edge of ignition signal.
This time (in s) is equivalent to 36.5°-19° = 17.5° associated with rotation speed in °/s.
The time is decreasing while RPM is increasing but ° stays at a constant value.
I'll do a 2ms long ignition signal.
QuoteI'll do a 2ms long ignition signal.
Ok, that could be interesting to test.
A static angular of 36,5 - 37 with a flat 19 degrees will be the same as the CDI pulse.
So that will be hard to test.
I need something that moves up and down :)
Like a curve, That will not drop under the 19 degrees
something like: (but then with the 2ms long ignition signal)
1000rpm 19
1250rpm 20
1500rpm 21
1750rpm 22
2000rpm 23
2250rpm 24
2500rpm 25
2750rpm 26
3000rpm 27
3250rpm 26
3500rpm 25
3750rpm 24
4000rpm 23
Received your firmware Olivier. Will test it and see how it is holding :)
Will do it tomorrow. :)
Had some time to spend on the CDI project.
First I checked Olivier longer Ignition pulse firmware, and it is great :)
It out rules the CDI ignition pulse, and gives a nice solid ignition point
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fsuperstable_zps6079ffaa.jpg&hash=d59a5a1c92633e40ad844acf8ebd9afc13b76649)
So the dark clouds where starting to disappear 8)
Bridged the diode on pin 13
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fbrugdiode_zpsb1a0654d.jpg&hash=daeadec14cbe1caa7db99e5d0e2423d06def6b71)
Next thing was to emulate that strange CDI pulse so i desolder the T2333 lose
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2FT2333out_zpsc8149c6f.jpg&hash=7c51e38d6c321ef6a403af78093a406258bb9bb0)
And soldered a socked on it., and started measuring.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2FT2333socket_zpsc64dc369.jpg&hash=e2e0549d1c384c23105c9424ddcfba5954ad04df)
One thing is sure, ones the T2333 is removed no ignition is there.
Sadly when the T2333 is removed it also takes away the Pickup pulse, so the iCP12 can't work.
After some measurement and trying some different setups. Figured it out that by disconnecting Pin 2 and 4 lose from the T2333 it gives a clear path for the iCP12 pulse.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2FT2333pins2and4out_zps45a9360a.jpg&hash=a4d171117f7ba753d0644975aa8861aa8dd1301b)
Now the iCP12 working correct, here you have a short clip of a small curve.
You see clearly the ignition point moving
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR320uS0mMs&feature=youtu.be
Olivier,
Do you have time to make a curve like this (with a 1ms pulse)
1000rpm 19
1250rpm 20
1500rpm 21
1750rpm 22
2000rpm 23
2250rpm 24
2500rpm 25
2750rpm 26
3000rpm 27
3250rpm 26
3500rpm 25
3750rpm 24
4000rpm 23
4250rpm 22
4500rpm 21
4750rpm 20
5000rpm 19
We are getting close
Cheers
Hi Louis,
Triangle firmware is posted (or soon ;) )
500rpm 19°
1000rpm 22°
1500rpm 24°
2000rpm 26°
2500rpm 28°
3000rpm 26°
3500rpm 24°
4000rpm 22°
4500rpm 19°
5000rpm 19°
.... rpm 19°
On your oscilloscope, you should trigger the pickup pulse signal so it will stay at the same position while revving.
Tested it Olivier,
Sadly its not doing what it suppose to be doing. It is jumping to different degrees on rpm where it not suppose to be doing that. On the scope I can see the moving what you can see with the timing light. (playing with the rpm)
(On the higher rpm it looks like it is working better)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38O7u4k8kwk&feature=youtu.be
Way it is doing that, don't know.
Perhaps the pickup pulse is not steady?
Perhaps tight tolerances in the firm ware?
Rising edge or falling edge problem?
Louis can you test the firmware with oscilloscope only...
a stable rpm measure the time between falling edge of pickup signal and falling edge of ignition
example :
1250rpm -> xxx ms
I could post you an exel file to compute the curve from the data.
Sadly my Hantek oscilloscope has his limitations.
I can't seem to trigger it to a single measuring point, it seems to be always moving trough the screen.
Also it has no recording possibility.
Plus point it doesn't cost that much ::)
It would be most likely that your firmware works OK :)
Think the shifting comes from something else, will investigate if thinks are stable.
Like checking
Thyristore gate vs pin 22
T2333 signal vs pin 13
Etc.
Can you point my to Hantek documents on line?
I'll check for trigger settings.
Hantek6000BE Series have trigger functions
http://www.hantek.com/en/ProductDetail_31.html (http://www.hantek.com/en/ProductDetail_31.html)
Trigger Mode Auto, Normal and Single
Trigger Slope +/-
Trigger level adjustable Yes
Trigger Type Rising edge, falling edge
Trigger Source CH1, CH2, EXT CH1, CH2
Pre/Post trigger 0-100%
Page 33 on the manual :D
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=6C60A056648D9011&id=6C60A056648D9011!257&authkey=!AF2teYX5MM6mR2k (https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=6C60A056648D9011&id=6C60A056648D9011!257&authkey=!AF2teYX5MM6mR2k)
Think here you can find some thinks, (have the manual as a file attached)
http://www.hantek.com/en/PagesFW_Vyhsc_2.html
I just made a quick measurement between gate thyristor and pin 22 (ignition out)
It should be the same, but it isn't.
Looks like something on the board is giving a signal to it to.
Quick question:
Can the iCP12 Control the Thyristor gate?
It uses a 1V pulse
Olivier,
I'm experimenting with the trigger, as you can see ;)
Think here is the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J56AF_jnsCs&feature=youtu.be
Thyristor gate vs pin22 (ignition out)
In my book it should be equally to each other, but some how it is changing.
It is different to see, but think it is firing on the falling edge. (it supports my theory for the movement)
So now I need to know, which pulses comes on the gate
Found some useful info here;
https://www.kitronik.co.uk/blog/how-to-use-a-thyristor-as-a-latch/
Looks like the gate pulse is only the starting point, even when the gate pulse is gone.
Current can go through it, it only stops when the current is stopped.
Think I need to find out, witch component on the CDI is switching the current off
Example to compare Ignition vs Pickup
For the trigger you need to :
- select a channel as reference => pickup signal on CH1
- select a profile rising or falling edge or level => falling edge for pickup
- select a level for the trigger to fire => 2.5v as pickup signal is 5V to 0V signal
Then the falling edge of pickup will be stable on your oscilloscope.
You could also shift the time of triggering on the horizontal axis to see more signal time.
For the thyristor, I think we can find a lot of data on transmic pages (on XT600 CDI).
Olivier,
I have had contact with Thierry (from the XT600 site)
He pointed me out on some interesting details :)
The iCP12 outgoing signal seems to be a mass pulse (ones you powerup the iCP12 it is 5V the pulse is a 0V)
The tyristor gate can only triggered by a positive pulse, so the negative pin22 pulse is converted to a positive pulse
it looks like that is done by a transistor (if i follow the route this transistor is the only one i can find)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Ftransistorreverse_zpse0f640bd.jpg&hash=16554e73700bf4d6cb15b58474e76121b2f4aa69)
After the transistor has made a positive pulse from a negative pulse, the route to the tyristor gate only hase some resistors probably to lower the 5V signal to a useful tyristor gate signal +/-1V (will measure that precisely)
What I have measured on the oscilloscope
With the stable 19 degrees (2ms pulse) firmware i measured three possibilities at the thyristor gate
1) stable 19 degrees. (pin22 vs gate SCR) pulses are exact the same
2) stable 19 degrees. (pin22 vs gate SCR) gate pulse is slightly longer than pin22 pulse (but measuring with timing light, still 19 degrees)
3) moving ignition point. (pin22 vs gate SCR) gate pulse is enormous longer than pin22 pulse.
a slightly longer gate SCR opening pulse is not messing thinks up, but a enormous longer SCR gate pulse is making the ignition point start shifting.
Now my question is, can we program the iCP12 so it gives a positive pulse (example 1v) with a length off +/-2ms.
I want to connect the outgoing iCP12 pulse directly on the thyristor gate, so it outrules any changing's from outside.
Would this be possible?
Also noticed this resistor
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fprobleemgeval_zpsd1036da8.jpg&hash=833fe159d2e6a4d07fbde00bd515dd764a096c53)
It is directly connected between the tyristor gate pin and mass
I'm wondering if this one could enlarge the gate pulse, du to different voltages it is getting ???
Perhaps I should remove it.? Or will this be a safety item, like a pull up or down
He pointed me out that the best way to understand this CDI unit, is to draw it out schematically, its like asking me to build the titanic :D But will give it a try
I could make a positive pulse firmware very easy. ;)
But we need to be sure that the thyristor will not pull too much current front the ICP12 pin.
Setting up a test bench for YPVS driver with a spare servomotor.
Will do a firmware with close position below 2000rpm and full open to 4500rpm
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FYPVS_Test_01.jpg&hash=7deb58e1504d5bc026de4a2ca209761e603a87fd)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FYPVS_Test_02.jpg&hash=b8191e750dc55bdb6c67b811ecb9fa6ad263b4a6)
QuoteBut we need to be sure that the thyristor will not pull too much current front the ICP12 pin.
Yes, that is a good point.
Pin22 is triggering a transistor witch probably needs less current as it only needs to switch the tyristor gate pulse. (Witch is a 5V signal)
Need to find some info regarding this tyristor type. (does the TDR CDI has the same?)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F3matyristor_zps457c6ac5.jpg&hash=aa801ea0230c5e3fd45cd71630a8e104c1b38d4a)
Does anybody know how the coding works? Or has some info about this one ???
(especially the gate signal current)
QuoteWill do a firmware with close position below 2000rpm and full open to 4500rpm
Great, I can test that :)
Only need to know exactly witch pin numbers need to be bridged/connected
Louis,
You could look at transmic for connecting ICP12 pin to thyristor gate.
You use a resistor to like R7 limit the current to 5mA<Igate<12mA
http://www.transmic.net/16628_v7/sch_cdi16628_v7.pdf (http://www.transmic.net/16628_v7/sch_cdi16628_v7.pdf)
I'll study the schematic too. :) ;)
Olivier,
First challenge will be to solder it lose. ;D
QuoteYou could look at transmic for connecting ICP12 pin to thyristor gate.
You use a resistor to like R7 limit the current to 5mA<Igate<12mA
Can the iCP12 not be set to specific voltage and amps?
I like to investigate one thing before I start removing the tyristor to give a pulse on the gate.
The route from the transistor (converting the negative pulse to positive pulse) is not that difficult :)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Froute_zpsa2b426f4.jpg&hash=f03e1ca17966c4d8b1b7e755301e1b3f09f33792)
It goes from:
1) out signal to resistor
2) from resistor to capacitor
3) from capacitor to tyristor gate
Could it not be that the longer gate pulse at the low revs is coming from that small capacitor? (ceramic capacitor 103) ;)
Discharging it self and enlarging the pulse?(How shorter the pulse, the shorter it can charge, the shorter the length off the pulse)
As there are no bypasses on that rout, its one line.
The capacitor is connected at one side (with the gate signal from the resistor), that same signal is going right to the tyristor gate. The other side off the capacitor is connected at mass.
Want to remove that tiny capacitor, so its only one rout from resistor to tyristor gate
What do you think, worth a try?
Louis,
The resistor is there for limiting the current and the capacitor is there for filtering the noise.
So you should keep them in place just plug the ICP12 pin to the track between the transistor output and the resistor.
Think our thoughts go the wrong way, Olivier.
Have measured Tyristor gate vs ignition wire (orange wire)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Forangevsgategood_zpsba1968c1.jpg&hash=bf5a666e0daff8b69c97f1f215d4bbe483d79bca)
The spark is given at the rising edge off the Tyristor pulse, not the falling edge.
This means that the length off the tyristor gate pulse has no influence on the spark timing :)
Also checked the gate tyristor vs pin22 (done it in the past) but now closely monitoring the rising edge.
Its always the same, rising edge pin22 vs rising edge tyristor gate.
This tells me that the tyristor gate triggers the right point.
If I measure pin13 vs pin22 I see the shifting on the scope where I see with the timing light
I have servile firmwares that i tested, (curve 36,5 - Triangle)
Perhaps something is going wrong there, we have a great steady 19 degrees base advange firmware.
way is it so different with a curved software
Olivier is it posible that you make a couple for testing, with a 1,5ms pulse (as it seems like a +1ms pulse is closest to oem)
If you make a curve firmware, can you tell me exact what it needs to be doing? So i can check that.
Example;
your triangle firmware is going up and down on some rpm's, but also goes slowly down in rpm when it rises
Think we are very close, only a matter off correction now i think
I'll look at carefully this evening to see what I can propose for further tests.
I will also check the formula which gives the advance angle when RPM is between two points of the curve.
Maybe a rounded value there which makes the timing light oscillating when a curved CDI is used.
Olivier,
Don't know way all logical thoughts regarding measurements comes in the end ::)
As have done two measurements and they both are spot on.
1) pin22 (iCP12) ignition signal out vs. Ignition coil (orange wire) (yellow is orangewire - green is iCP12 ignition pulse)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fpin22vsignitionorange_zps73f8a559.jpg&hash=0302296773a7dab11cf65b9b88adcaf1aee86653)
This is always the same throughout the whole rpm range. (no delays anywhere)
2) pin13 (iCP12) pickup signal in vs. Pickup signal from pickup it self (black/white wire) (yellow is pickup - green is iCP12 incoming pickup pulse)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fpickupvsicpickup_zpsfffe6f8b.jpg&hash=077824a42f013ce5a65ce182592a5ce27ad5b601)
Also there is no delay anywhere (although the signal do split up) the pulse stays the same rising edge
From my perspective, the shifting has to come from the firmware.
Perhaps some point are incorrect?
This is good information.
I'll check the firmware...
Maybe add more points than actually : every 500rpm with linear approximation in between.
Could try every 250rpm
Will test YPVS motor driving tomorrow ;)
Ok, will wait on your findings.
Just a another question.
In my spare time on this project, still investigate the oem IC.
From what can find now, the oem IC is coming from the Fujitsu MB88500 series
It has serval divergences like the 501 502 505 H or L, P etc.
Reading datasheets of the MB88500 series it seems to be a mask-rom IC
Seems logical as ones it is programmed, it doesn't need to be changed.
My question is not if it can be programmed, but can it be read out (firmware or code)
Are there any modern prom readers witch can reed a MB88500 (4-bit) IC
Think it might be interesting to see what is programmed on them
Do you think one off these types can read them?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stager-VS4800-FLASH-MCU-EEPROM-Universal-Programmer-Support-48Pin-18K-IC-U-N0272-/141152470514?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item20dd57c5f2
The problem when you ready code from IC is that you get ASM language (Assembly language) file.
The ASM is specific to the IC family so you have to learn the basic before understanding the firmware.
Maybe some tool can convert ASM to C language?
BAD weather so will setup a lab test environment for the YPVS servo vs RPM
I found this while looking the 3MA1 workshop manual.
Will ask my contact to translate the diagram Page 21.
Look interesting to know the block inside the CDI unit.
That looks like an Analog - Digital converter.
The input/output # 2 looks like it could be either the TPS signal or maybe the YPVS servo? which are analog so the A/D converter does as its name suggests
Trying to setup my winter test bench at my home lab, I make my iCP12 board fail :(
Try to upload the firmware while it was connected to the CDI !!! :o
The bootloader has to be programmed in again.
But the PicCircuit support guys are good and work also during the weekend so I have the procedure to set it up right.
I'll use an arduino to emulate the rpm signal (so pin should not be connected to CDI) so i could setup the YPVS servo control.
iCP12 back to normal mode so will go on winter bench... ;)
Hello Olivier,
QuoteTry to upload the firmware while it was connected to the CDI !!! :o
A wile back, something like that happened to me to.
To solve my problem had to use a new iCP12 (have two on reserve)
QuoteI'll use an arduino to emulate the rpm signal (so pin should not be connected to CDI) so i could setup the YPVS servo control.
What type did you use?, If it is affordable?. I like to buy one to
Like to know the Oem ypvs curve and airjet solenoid map.
QuoteiCP12 back to normal mode so will go on winter bench..
How does your winter test bench looks/works :)
I took a day off work to setup this and manage to blow the YPVS driver TA4234A T2333 :( >:( ?:-|
a pack of 10 T2333 at 9$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-T2333-Manu-TOSHIBA-Encapsulation-ZIP-9-TRIANGULAR-TYPE-/380932219286?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b1546196 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-T2333-Manu-TOSHIBA-Encapsulation-ZIP-9-TRIANGULAR-TYPE-/380932219286?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b1546196)
a TA434A
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?lang=en&site=us&vendor=0&WT.z_cid=ref_findchips0311_dkc_buynow&mpart=STA434A (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?lang=en&site=us&vendor=0&WT.z_cid=ref_findchips0311_dkc_buynow&mpart=STA434A)
a pack of 5 STA434A at 5$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-STA434A-Manu-SANKEN-Encapsulation-ZIP-10-PNP-NPN-Darlington-H-bridge-/371085058901?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566664a355 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-STA434A-Manu-SANKEN-Encapsulation-ZIP-10-PNP-NPN-Darlington-H-bridge-/371085058901?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566664a355)
Here the disaster...
I've ordered a pack of 5 from ebay seller (see previous message).
I've soldered an IC support and maybe make it removable with little connector...
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_32.jpg&hash=764ca5ed295752f48d528b80e3aa196778b025c3)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_33.jpg&hash=553e60bccfd5fa913ce0c4f06fc02f9d0c230e40)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_34.jpg&hash=cc34a7ba1fdf2da29d3b2429750c3d73249b5370)
:o Olivier. That is not looking nicely.
Hopefully the damage is only on the TA4234A.
Have checked it on the 3MA CDI, there I have a T8050P YPVS driver ???
Will this give problems in the future, when using your firmware witch is designed for the TA4234A?
I'm still focusing myself on the ignition part first, ones that is ok ill go to the ypvs circuit.
Update,
for your confidence Olivier, just destroyed my Oem IC :'(
(Was forgotten that I bypassed the diode on pin 13)
Tried to de-solder the Oem ic lose from my spare CDI but that didn't go that well if you are in a rush.
So measurements on the Oem Ic are for the moment history. :-[
I'll try to check the datasheet of your driver T8050P
I wait my IC to come from Hong Kong ;)
IC STA434A are on their way from Hong Kong :D
That is good news.
I have ordered a pulse generator, in order to get more data from the Oem IC
http://www.transmic.net/en/simulator.htm
So hopefully, ill have better steady readings.
Also started with building my trackbike 3 pipes
http://www.tzr3ma.com/building-the-track-bike-3-pipes.html
Hope to do more this weekend.
But all on a slow speed, as it is getting colder by the day ::)
I'll start again to do some testing when I receive the ICs.
Nice work on your pipes... I'll like to have your metal skills. ;)
Will waiting the IC to arrive I check the web for TZR and STA434A and found this on KR1 forum
CDI board looks identical to TDR250 one... same components with same names is white...
Does the KR1 shares the same CDI as the Yamies !!!
maccas you were on the post...
http://www.kr-1s.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11301 (http://www.kr-1s.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11301)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi978.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae265%2Fjasoncarsboult%2Fcdi1_zps9e98fcd9.jpg&hash=df81a9bb11d920903f2bef922e8752174735180e)
Well it could be, as its a DENSO to.
Probably the IC would be different, but still interesting to know :)
This also mean, that when we have it all working the Icp12 can work on a Kr1-s to ;)
A French KR1 fan will try to send a Kawa CDI to check.
Maybe Maccas will tell us too.
""all development is done through repeated mistakes - and analysis""
Keep the spirtit - well done guys...
Yes.
Problem is when you are trying to go fast because kids are asking questions all the time then you make a mistake...
Can't blame the kids... I should have wait.
Picture 1 : the TDR250 YPVS driver
Picture 2 : the KR1 KIPS driver
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_33.jpg&hash=553e60bccfd5fa913ce0c4f06fc02f9d0c230e40)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi978.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae265%2Fjasoncarsboult%2Fcdi1_zps9e98fcd9.jpg&hash=df81a9bb11d920903f2bef922e8752174735180e)
QuoteProblem is when you are trying to go fast because kids are asking questions all the time then you make a mistake...
Can't blame the kids...
I Don't have kids asking questions at the wrong times, but still I'm making mistakes. ;D
With a bid off luck, the pulse simulator is almost ready :)
Have ordered a 3MA-00 CDI for future testing/reading out
The score now is;
1) 3MA-00 CDI on my test bench
2) 3MA-00 CDI fore development (ones ready, it will be the first one i use on my bike)
3) 3MA-01 CDI on my test bike (perhaps later reading it out to see the difference between 00 and 01)
4) 3MA-00 CDI for reading out (get the ignition curves and PV curves)
Parts arrived from Hong Kong.
So tests will start again ;)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_35.jpg&hash=b1c707ba0fcffd9c81837bf1ab29f77dd5dae73a)
Had a bid spare time today, so start measuring the full throttle curve (1 curve)
(as that one will be important for the experiment)
Measured it like this
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F376hz_zps761e1d40.jpg&hash=757764f2f5e50a74954f6a49b41ec9a108531af5)
Where I used the grid points to calculate the delay (seen in yellow in the graphic)
More details here:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/digital-reading-oem-curve.html
Came with the following results:
26Hz----780Rpm------3,55ms
47Hz----1410Rpm-----2,05ms
66Hz----1980Rpm-----1,49ms
104Hz---3120Rpm----749us
140Hz---4200Rpm----577us
177Hz---5310Rpm----465us
209Hz---6270Rpm----411us
242Hz---7260Rpm----362us
273Hz---8190Rpm----318us
310Hz---9333Rpm----328us
344Hz---10310Rpm---352us
376Hz---11280Rpm---401us
407Hz---12210Rpm---455us
So now will be the trick to calculate it back to degrees.
Hopefully Olivier has some tricks to do this :)
First results are known :) (we are not sure if it is correct, working on it)
But it has the looks of a curve ;D (no strange peeks at certain rpm's)
Also need to tell, that this is my new CDI unit, perhaps i have forgotten to connect something and this is a save curve.
What we have looks like this
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fidee_zps2afe918b.jpg&hash=f2816f95877f43c46c03995caeead6b961710f08)
Perhaps it has something to do with this
QuoteIgnition performing
PIC receives the signal from the pick-up and delays it by using an internal table. This means that the starting point of the ignition should be place before of PMS at the most advanced point in which you want to the ignition works.
(https://deracahyono.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/graficos.gif)
First graph shows the real advance curve measured in degrees over the PMS, nevertheless the PIC can not perform advancing, else it will make a delay from the pickup signal (typically at 36 degrees). For the maximum advance point, the PIC will do a zero delay (for 36 deg. advance). When this maximum value is determined, the second graph can be done, this graph shows delay in degrees that the PIC should perform after receiving the pickup pulse.
The PIC computes the elpased time between the last pulse and the present one, and by using this count it access to a table in which are stored time to delays vs measured period.
Louis,
How many degrees before TDC is the front of the lobe on the 3ma flywheel?
43?
Dan
Sorry Guys my mistake.
These value's are with full throttle position (Tps sensor on 1)
I should have measured the closed throttle position (tps on 0)
As I sad, its cold out there ::)
Hello Dan,
QuoteHow many degrees before TDC is the front of the lobe on the 3ma flywheel?
Sorry I really don't know.
It's to late to measure it now. Will try to measure it when I have the time.
I know that the steady angular is 36 degrees. Perhaps this helps?
Think I have it
(Thanks to Rui, for the calculation) ;)
26Hz----780Rpm------3,55ms----16,6deg 36-16,6=19,4deg
47Hz----1410Rpm-----2,05ms----17,3deg 36-17,3=18,7deg
66Hz----1980Rpm-----1,49ms----17,7deg 36-17,7=18,3deg
104Hz---3120Rpm----749us----14,02deg 36-14,02=21,98deg
140Hz---4200Rpm----577us----14,54deg 36-14,54=21,46deg
177Hz---5310Rpm----465us----14,81deg 36-14,18=21,19deg
209Hz---6270Rpm----411us----15,46deg 36-15,46=20,54deg
242Hz---7260Rpm----362us----15,78deg 36-15,78=20,22deg
273Hz---8190Rpm----318us----15,62deg 36-15,62=20,38deg
310Hz---9333Rpm----328us----18,36deg 36-18,36=17,64deg
344Hz---10310Rpm---352us----21,77deg 36-21,77=14,23deg
376Hz---11280Rpm---401us----27,14deg 36-27,14=8.86deg
407Hz---12210Rpm---455us----33,33deg 36-33,33=2,67deg
Then the resulds will be this. (the full Throttle curve)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fnugoed_zps1665ac47.jpg&hash=dd145b0dc463e18be841269171d9613f674086c1)
Think the slight variation has something to do with me. As I'm manually picking the points on the grid to show me the delay time.
I'm looking if my oscilloscope can do that for me, that will be precise
Well done Louis!!!
Your measurements are quite consistent with your "guesstimated" graph (wich now is not that guesstimated anymore ;D)
QuoteYour measurements are quite consistent
Well its still a bid wobbly ;D, but now I know how to come at the values/degrees.
Need to know if my Oscilloscope can do the mathematical trick. (Time between channel one rising edge and rising edge channel two)
If this is possible, think you can compute that curve very precise.
Have readout the 0 curve to. :)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/curve-0--close-throttle-.html
Interesting for our experiment
10310rpm----19,92degrees
10740rpm----17,67degrees
11280rpm----13,47degrees
Meaning this we know, isn't that bad
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fcdicurves3ma-00_zpsd12799c6.jpg&hash=4abd0b5b7605c43391e50653e899f4d8986f367d)
After knowing this, perhaps a pipe peeking at 11000rpm would be better.
From what I have been reading a headvolume of 10,5cc (close to) works good with a 14 degrees at peek power.
Could have that wrong of course, but have read it serval times ::)
Thank you for the 2MA grafic , it interests me ;D
QuoteThank you for the 2MA grafic , it interests me ;D
No problem, there you have it ;D
Made a great discovery, even have to rewrite some thing on my page :-[
First like to say, I can make mistakes to. So I apologies fore the ones who have followed me on this.
Speed limiter circuit.Have always sad that by removing the speedometer from the clock and connect it at the cdi will be enough to bypass the speed limiter. This is as I know now partly through.
Because I can generate quit some rpm steps with my pulse generator, thought lets find the speed limiter curve witch should be active when metal tap is between the optics.
But couldn't find any changing in the ignition curve when the speedlimiter should work. Have tested and replaced the speed limiter chip (clock side) checked again, etc, etc, but can't find any changing in the curve.
Little bid disappointed, went over to read out the ypvs curve
And those I have, here you are :)
Ypvs start opening at 5880rpm
Yps fully open at 9720rpm.
Thought that's nice to know, and pushed a couple more rpms to see what happens and there it was
At 10.500rpm the ypvs motor did a small step back. First I thought something went wrong.
But no, time after time at that point the ypvs closes a touch.
So instead of a safety or speed limiter curve, the ypvs just closes the powervalve a touch to drop the power ???
There is more:
The Speelimiter
needs to see the tap first (signal to the CDI)
Only then the ypvs stays open from 9720 till about 14000rpm (did not go futher)
When the speedlimiter does not see the tap, before engine starts (signal is not given to the CDI)
The ypvs will close a touch at 10500rpm
This is of course not noticeable with stock pipes as they peek at 10.000rpm (there is where I went wrong)
But if you have pipes that peeks more than 10.000rpm, This could be as some described it ''hitting a wall''
So if you have a setup with the restrictor just connected at the CDI. Put something between the optics before you start the engine, after the engine runs or you ride pull the (example) tyrep a way and you have free power.
Will update my site with this, within a couple off days (will explain it better and with detail)
Now that is interesting Louis!
I agree that you need to put something between the optics on start up then remove it once running, but always thought it was the ignition curve that changed as you said!
Great stuff!
Dan
Thanks,
Yes, this was totally un expected for me to.
Will do some more test, with pictures and a movie to show how much the ypvs is lowering the pv's
Funny isn't it, after years working on them those 3MA's still surprises us ;D
Yes definitely Louis! Those clever Japanese! I wonder if the 3xv limiter works in the same way?
Dan
Surprising conclusion of your work Louis, thank you for this interesting find :)
Quote from: maccas on January 02, 2015, 10:59:12 PM
Yes definitely Louis! Those clever Japanese! I wonder if the 3xv limiter works in the same way?
Dan
I'd always assumed that the oe CPU rev limiter worked by an
ignition tweak too, but backing off the PV a touch would do the job just as well I guess, so I wouldn't be surprised if it does work the same way on the 3XV too. A close watch of a stock bike's PV spool on the dyno would tell the story. Good stuff, Louis! :)
Thanks Guy's.
Have updated my site, with some more details.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/speed-limiter-working.html
Now you can see how much the ypvs is going back
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fgraden-ypvs.jpg&hash=988bb7c2f39233fa2ed91c5d98c72e5f62e914d6)
Hope this clears thinks up :)
That's interesting to see it working. Might explain why my bike only revs to 10500
Do you have access to an m-max delimiter to see if it does the same thing as just having the circuit board fitted ?
Also, can you check how far the ypvs opens when the circuit board is unplugged ? Just curious as to what ( if any ) difference that makes
Keep up the good work :)
QuoteMight explain why my bike only revs to 10500
Could be, but with the use off stock pipes you should hardly noticed as they peek at 10.000RPM
Perhaps if you hold full throttle longer, after peek power. You may feel it indeed.
QuoteDo you have access to an m-max delimiter to see if it does the same thing as just having the circuit board fitted ?
Yes I have, will certainly test it.
QuoteAlso, can you check how far the ypvs opens when the circuit board is unplugged
Yes, that is one off the first things ill be testing.
I cant hardly belief that the pv wont open all the way, to reduce the power that much they should hardly open.
So my guess is that this is perhaps done with the ignition.
Will see :)
I have held the bike flat out ( in all gears ) to see if I could get the revs up but the most I could get was 10600, I did think that it should go a bit more but having your results on the ypvs explains why it won't rev.
Thanks for testing the m-max box, will be interesting to see the results
Got another question, do you know what happens to the ypvs if the metal tab is left in the circuit board from start up ?
The reason I ask is that on one of the videos on your site when you put the tab between the sensors the ypvs opens up and when it's removed it drops back the 30 degrees, does that mean that if the tab is there all the time the bike is in unrestricted mode ?
Hi there Paul, just read your last post.
As I understand it, the tab needs to be there when speedo is reading 0 km or ml/h. Then it has to NOT interfeer with the gizmo anymore.
The method posted in 2006 on the forum of that time is still valid, or so I understand it.
http://pure2strokespirit.net/TZR/localhost/cgi-bin/ikonboard88d3.html?s=cc546999de3446d361d9dd7b0f95594a;act=ST;f=5;t=129
If you look at the pics in the 5th post, by Warwick in that thread.
Pic in the left is shows the tab in its original length. Speedo is a 0 km/h. The right side of the tab is in between the the 2 small "tower like" gizmos, that is OK.
Then, as the speedo begins to move (higher speed), the tab follows the speedo needle, and the left side of the tab as you see it in the first pic, when needle is at 180km/h gets again in between the 2 "towers" in the gizmo. This is what gives the sign for the YPVS valve to close.
Now look at the pic. to the right.
The left end of the tab has been cutted away. This means that the speedo needle needs to be in a position where it would be showing VERY VERY high speed (250-300 km/h ;D) for the tab to get in between the towers.
Thats it.
I did this mod to my 3XV. Together with the other cylinder work by TZR cylinder guru Martin77, OX racing SP pipes, airbox mods and a few hours of carburation work, the bike reved to more then 12000 rpm on the tacho. Also the 180 km/h mark... well... it was not an issue ;D
For a guy with your skils, doing this mod. would be as easy, as for a teenager to get a b*nner, if he accidently was to walk into the girls changing room after a gymnastics class.
Quote from: casal-fan on January 07, 2015, 02:15:58 AM
Hi there Paul, just read your last post.
As I understand it, the tab needs to be there when speedo is reading 0 km or ml/h. Then it has to NOT interfeer with the gizmo anymore.
The method posted in 2006 on the forum of that time is still valid, or so I understand it.
http://pure2strokespirit.net/TZR/localhost/cgi-bin/ikonboard88d3.html?s=cc546999de3446d361d9dd7b0f95594a;act=ST;f=5;t=129
If you look at the pics in the 5th post, by Warwick in that thread.
Pic in the left is shows the tab in its original length. Speedo is a 0 km/h. The right side of the tab is in between the the 2 small "tower like" gizmos, that is OK.
Then, as the speedo begins to move (higher speed), the tab follows the speedo needle, and the left side of the tab as you see it in the first pic, when needle is at 180km/h gets again in between the 2 "towers" in the gizmo. This is what gives the sign for the YPVS valve to close.
Now look at the pic. to the right.
The left end of the tab has been cutted away. This means that the speedo needle needs to be in a position where it would be showing VERY VERY high speed (250-300 km/h ;D) for the tab to get in between the towers.
Thats it.
I did this mod to my 3XV. Together with the other cylinder work by TZR cylinder guru Martin77, OX racing SP pipes, airbox mods and a few hours of carburation work, the bike reved to more then 12000 rpm on the tacho. Also the 180 km/h mark... well... it was not an issue ;D
For a guy with your skils, doing this mod. would be as easy, as for a teenager to get a b*nner, if he accidently was to walk into the girls changing room after a gymnastics class.
Thanks for the link and explanation, the problem I have is that I've fitted digital clocks so the circuit board is mounted separately so the only way I can have the tab moving is to move it manually.
Looks lke I'll have to work out some sort of switch at start up now :)
If I'm getting this right then, at standstill the bike has the restricted ypvs ?
Quit busy these days, but managed to do some measurements for you Paul.
Have to say, the testing unit placed is a 3MA-00 CDI the 3MA-01 CDI could have a different out come.
Metal tap between optics all time.
-Ignition curve is the same as full throttle (or closed depends on throttle position)
only the pv are closing at 10500rpm.
Speed limiter disconnected
-This surprised me to, but the ignition curve is still the same (no safety curve)
pv's go back at 10500rpm
TPS sensor disconnected.
- Ignition is using the full throttle curve, and pv's are closing at 10500rpm
I'm surprised with the outcome to.
As I know that what you have been feeling when speedlimiter is disconnected
It feels like a lame duck ;D
(same if you have put the TPS sensor 180 degrees wrong on your carbs)
But can't measure a difference in the ignition curve, with this setup.
I'm looking if I can find a 3MA-01 CDI fore some measurements
(I have one, but like to hold that one original for some testing with the closed curve and shortened exhausts)
On both the 3XV and 3MA I've always found performance to be just the same with the restrictor unit either unplugged or with the tab between the sensor (ie: with the speedo cable removed so the speedo sits at '0' through any testing, so your findings match with that Louis.
If using the stock ignitions I always used to suggest leaving the restrictor unit fitted in the speedo, but with the tab trimmed to leave a bit at the beginning because it always seemed to me that the optics needed to see the tab initially at start up before it 'disarmed' the restriction as the tab moved out of sightt of the optics as the speed rose. The trick being to prevent the tab going back between the optics t 180, thus sending the 'restrict' signal to the CDI.
On the 3XV, the Posh Firm Moto boxes allow you to remove the restrictor unit if you want because they connect only to the wiring loom itself (not the restrictor unit), thus taking it out of the equation all together. The M-Max boxes seem to work differently and need the restrictor unit in place as they connect between the restrictor and the loom. I don't know if Posh Firm Moto made the same kind of unit for the 3MA that I have for the 3XV though?
Quote from: Louis on January 11, 2015, 01:03:47 AM
Quit busy these days, but managed to do some measurements for you Paul.
Have to say, the testing unit placed is a 3MA-00 CDI the 3MA-01 CDI could have a different out come.
Metal tap between optics all time.
-Ignition curve is the same as full throttle (or closed depends on throttle position)
only the pv are closing at 10500rpm.
Speed limiter disconnected
-This surprised me to, but the ignition curve is still the same (no safety curve)
pv's go back at 10500rpm
TPS sensor disconnected.
- Ignition is using the full throttle curve, and pv's are closing at 10500rpm
I'm surprised with the outcome to.
As I know that what you have been feeling when speedlimiter is disconnected
It feels like a lame duck ;D
(same if you have put the TPS sensor 180 degrees wrong on your carbs)
But can't measure a difference in the ignition curve, with this setup.
I'm looking if I can find a 3MA-01 CDI fore some measurements
(I have one, but like to hold that one original for some testing with the closed curve and shortened exhausts)
Thanks for doing those tests Louis :D
Those results are very interesting, especially when the unit is disconnected.
I know that as standard the bike peaks at 10500rpm but it would be nice if it there was the option to hang onto the gears a little bit longer.
I'm pretty sure that there was a difference in performance when the unit was disconnected but after seeing your results it might of just been me knowing that it wasn't there which made it feel like it did.
Hi Warwick,
Yes you are right, ignition curve (performance wise) there is no difference (with tap or without tap or disconnected)
To gain full function off the pv's, the metal tap needs to be seen ones.
The only thing I'm interested in now, is if there is a different between the 00 or 01 3MA CDI's
All the testing is done on a 3MA-00 CDI, So can't compare.
Have scored a 3MA-01 CDI to see if any differences can be found, now I know how to read them out.
Could be interesting.
I'm guessing the differences will be minimal as I have tested them on a dyno with hardly any difference.
But the 3MA's still surprises me, so perhaps something can be found :)
Will see
Hi Paul,
QuoteI know that as standard the bike peaks at 10500rpm
They peek at 10.000rpm with stock 3MA-1 exhausts.
So you have a +/-500rpm over rev.
Quotebut it would be nice if it there was the option to hang onto the gears a little bit longer.
I know, working on that. :)
The optic's speedlimiter circuitboard, are nothing more then a electrical swish.
I'm trying to find out if it can be replaced with a normal on/of swish.
So you can give the correct signal to the CDI ones the engine is started, and swish to full ypvs curve when needed
Give me some time for it. :)
Just fore my personal know how, what CDI unit do you have fitted the 00 or 01?
Quote from: Warwick on January 11, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
On both the 3XV and 3MA I've always found performance to be just the same with the restrictor unit either unplugged or with the tab between the sensor (ie: with the speedo cable removed so the speedo sits at '0' through any testing, so your findings match with that Louis.
If using the stock ignitions I always used to suggest leaving the restrictor unit fitted in the speedo, but with the tab trimmed to leave a bit at the beginning because it always seemed to me that the optics needed to see the tab initially at start up before it 'disarmed' the restriction as the tab moved out of sightt of the optics as the speed rose. The trick being to prevent the tab going back between the optics t 180, thus sending the 'restrict' signal to the CDI.
On the 3XV, the Posh Firm Moto boxes allow you to remove the restrictor unit if you want because they connect only to the wiring loom itself (not the restrictor unit), thus taking it out of the equation all together. The M-Max boxes seem to work differently and need the restrictor unit in place as they connect between the restrictor and the loom. I don't know if Posh Firm Moto made the same kind of unit for the 3MA that I have for the 3XV though?
That's good to know how the bike feels with the speedo cable removed, that was something that I was interested in hearing about. I've read that some people have had their bike set up on the dyno but when it was used on the road they seized, if the bike has a different setting once it goes into de-restricted mode then that might explain why that happens.
What I'll do ( once it warms up a bit ) is move the circuit board so that I can see how the bike revs/feels when it sees a metal tab at start up
I might even see if I can work out some way to make a switch that moves the tab out of the way of the optics :)
Quote from: Louis on January 11, 2015, 02:32:58 PM
Hi Paul,
QuoteI know that as standard the bike peaks at 10500rpm
They peek at 10.000rpm with stock 3MA-1 exhausts.
So you have a +/-500rpm over rev.
Quotebut it would be nice if it there was the option to hang onto the gears a little bit longer.
I know, working on that. :)
The optic's speedlimiter circuitboard, are nothing more then a electrical swish.
I'm trying to find out if it can be replaced with a normal on/of swish.
So you can give the correct signal to the CDI ones the engine is started, and swish to full ypvs curve when needed
Give me some time for it. :)
Just fore my personal know how, what CDI unit do you have fitted the 00 or 01?
If my memory serves me right the highest rpm I saw was 10570 which ties up with your results.
I was thinking of making a mechanical switch, having a push button would look a lot nicer but I'll leave that to someone who knows what he's doing :)
The CDI unit I have is a 01
Just to confirm Louis: I've always used a -01 ignition/PV unit too, so the notes above refer only to my experience with that unit in regards to the 3MA. It'll be interesting to see if you find any difference between the -00 and -01 boxes in terms of how they restrict on your test rig. Seems unlikely that they would change something like that, but who knows? And it will be interesting to see in any case 8).
Back on the project of programmable CDI
I've tested my TDR CDI with new YPVS IC and OEM IC on the TZR... so i'll test my lab setup for winter software developments.
Maybe we need to split the thread in 2 parts :
- 3MA specific functions
- programmable development 3MA and 2XT + TDR...
Any comments.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FTDR250-2YK-CDI_37.jpg&hash=adee96de8e76091d729428e395ea2d07714b3d41)
QuoteJust to confirm Louis: I've always used a -01 ignition/PV unit too, so the notes above refer only to my experience with that unit in regards to the 3MA
Ok thanks, that is good to know.
Will do some tests when I have the 3MA-01 CDI at home, and see if those fields are different.
QuoteBack on the project of programmable CDI
Will do ;)
The pulse generator, can generate a relative wide range off rpm's (Solid and steady steps of around 500rpm)
Now it will be possible to see where the firmware on the iCP12 is walking away.
Also noticed that pin23 is generating a ignition pulse to.
Only this one is not getting longer/shorter when turning at the TPS sensor.
Will investigate this further
QuoteAny comments.
Keeping up the good work :)
Excellent work guys,
I've got some Arduino and micro controller experience, How hard do you think it would be to use this Cdi in my RG 125? It has no TPS or power-valve atm but I could fit them. Is it feasible or worth it?
I've just win a R1Z CDI on Yahoo for 17€
This will make a second CDI for testing.
Hello Olivier,
Its always handy to have enough CDI's when working on a project like this :)
Haven't done much, its still cold outside ::)
Have figure it out how to bypass the Speedlimiter signal.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/speed-limiter-bypass.html
Currently working on the CDI, comparing the ignition signals (as its still no good)
My new setup to do this is
Have a complete working CDI, only disconnect pin22 from the Oem IC
Over the Oem IC i use the Icp-12 (Connected to pin13 and pin22 (pin 22 bottom circuit board as it is disconnected from the oem IC)
To measure both signals at the same time;)
If you have time, can you make a ignition curve (from the 0-1/8 curve closed curve) that i can upload on the Icp-12?
So i can compare the two together with my phuse generator and see where it is going wrong.
Quote from: Louis on January 01, 2015, 05:43:15 PM
Meaning this we know, isn't that bad
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fcdicurves3ma-00_zpsd12799c6.jpg&hash=4abd0b5b7605c43391e50653e899f4d8986f367d)
After knowing this, perhaps a pipe peeking at 11000rpm would be better.
Hi Louis,
Great thread, fantastic read and very very interesting, sorry to pull this back a few pages. I would like to know why you think a pipe that resonates at 11000rpm would best suit that curve? Would the resonance be better suited around 9000 so that as the ignition retards, the gases heat up and widen the pipes resonant range?
Cheers!
Quote from: Louis on February 08, 2015, 09:18:03 PM
If you have time, can you make a ignition curve (from the 0-1/8 curve closed curve) that i can upload on the Icp-12?
So i can compare the two together with my phase generator and see where it is going wrong.
Do you want the 0-1/8 throttle curve in light blue in the above picture ?
QuoteDo you want the 0-1/8 throttle curve in light blue in the above picture ?
Hello Olivier,
Yes if it is possible, like to have that curve so can upload it in the iCP12.
If all goes well I can monitor both signals at the same time (With the same pulse coming from the pulse generator)
Also noticed that there is a different in behavior when I use my electro running engine or if I use the pulse generator.
-With the electro running engine pulse, it seems that on the board it self more signals are given and the iCP12 reacts on that
-With the pulse generator, i need no high voltage spools to work (only on ignition is enough) the signals are more logical on the ICP12
It could be that the iCP12 is reacting on a other pulse somewhere on the circuitboard that make it go wrong.
That is what i want to test, if i can see both signals at the same time
QuoteHi Louis,
Great thread, fantastic read and very very interesting, sorry to pull this back a few pages. I would like to know why you think a pipe that resonates at 11000rpm would best suit that curve? Would the resonance be better suited around 9000 so that as the ignition retards, the gases heat up and widen the pipes resonant range?
Cheers!
hello,
First to say I'm not a expert on this.
I only experimenting with my thoughts for the moment
More modern twostrokes uses 14degrees at peek power. (have been reading that cerval times)
A stock 3MA peeks at 10.000rpm and with the TPS in use at full throttle it is close to 14 degrees
To use the 1/8 curve (witch is more to a modern twostroke ignition curve) the 14 degrees is now between 10750 and 11000rpm.
Therefore i like to shorten a stock pipe to let it peek close to 11000rpm in order to gain the max out off the 1/8 curve.
Of course the stock PV curve will make it a bid non racy as it will open to soon as it is designed for the stock full throttle curve
Will see it on the dyno what it does. Could be interesting
OK I'll try to post the ICP12 firmware tomorrow evening.
Olivier.
Louis you have an email for the firmware
I've tried to reproduce the curve in your picture.
CDI advance is integer value in ° so orange curve is the firmware and blue the theoretical one.
Hello Olivier,
I have received your firmware and did some first tests :)
Test setup is as followed
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fcontole%2520setup_zpsebrg4tnx.jpg&hash=1bcf2d7ddb2d67e3fb6c7e79c1da1e17641b8403)
-Left you see that I have removed the T2333 outside the circuitboard to invest further.
As all incoming and outgoing signals go through this component (adding own signals to)
-Right You see the iCp12 with the your curve, and connected at the oem IC (to use the same signals)
Have ordered some more T2333's to investigate them.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2FT2333_zpsluy9vrzz.jpg&hash=03b6de22c695e43e75df5c6790d7796a485a14c8)
Some first results are surprisingly new.
After 96,92HZ both signals are equally, until Max rpm (great work olivier)
-green Oem IC
-yellow iCP12 firmware
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F9692_zpsyw3lmyvx.jpg&hash=c1432f439bdd1820262703b27908174cbd4ed164)
Below 96,92HZ thinks are not logical at all.
There is a big difference between Oem IC (outgoing signal) and iCP12 firmware
Examples:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F6558_zpsssfqg3o1.jpg&hash=ee4918e24cf6f8294f75b465d0237cb5551c8ed8)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F8137_zpsokpvw32m.jpg&hash=f9d1c6c8f78af71714ad3a7ba88985ab4759436a)
Below 48,06Hz (logical will be 50Hz) the Oem IC ignition pulse disappear
Only the iCP12 firmware remains
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F4806_zpsbyccpuql.jpg&hash=0071018296a5d9e069ca97199e6b3ba4c33dace4)
As we know that pin22 from the Oem IC is giving the ignition pulse.
Pin22 (outgoing signal) goes to Pin 4 from the T2333, and than to a transistor witch switches the thyristor gate witch charges the Capacitor
But the T2333 gives a own signal on pin4 to, to remove that own made signal hade to disconnect pin 4 off the T2333
(in real live the outgoing signal from pin 22 goes to T2333 pin4, but is not loose it stays one connection T2333 only add a signal to it not create one)
Now a new discovery is that pin 23 an 24 (connected to each other) is giving a ignition pulse to only in the low revs
The route from Pin 23 and 24 goes to the T2333 to and is coming on Pin3.
Now my feeling is that the dancing seen in the low revs with the iCP12 has something to do with that.
Somehow the Oem circuit board is using the two signals.
The main will be the pin22 but on the low revs pin 23 and 24 are used to.
Olivier you see the low voltage the iCP-12 gives for his ignition point (less than 1V)
Perhaps i have destroyed one Icp-12 as I update the firmware as it is still connected to the Oem IC
Ore you have programmed a low outgoing voltage? or its something else
Do you know how much you have set the outgoing voltage?
Will do some more test to morrow
Hi Louis
Long message... to give a good diagnostic need to be clear on some points
A)
ICP12 and OEM IC are using the same input signals :
- +5V
- GND
- Pickup signal (input for both)
-> pin 13 on OEM
-> pin B0 on ICP12
B)
The outputs of ICP12 and OEM are not simultaneously connected to the board.
- OEM pin 22
- ICP12 pin C0
On your oscilloscope captures, you are comparing
- OEM pin22 connected to T2333
- ICP12 pin C0 not connected to T2333
Can you check the level low or hight of OEM pin 23/24 when RPM are above 100Hz?
Maybe to use ICP12, we need the force the OEM pin 23/24 to a given state low or high.
My setup is less complicated as TDR250 CDI has no airjets or TPS or speed limit...
Hi Olivier,
QuoteA)
ICP12 and OEM IC are using the same input signals :
- +5V
- GND
- Pickup signal (input for both)
-> pin 13 on OEM
-> pin B0 on ICP12
This is correct
QuoteB)
The outputs of ICP12 and OEM are not simultaneously connected to the board.
- OEM pin 22
- ICP12 pin C0
On your oscilloscope captures, you are comparing
- OEM pin22 connected to T2333
- ICP12 pin C0 not connected to T2333
No, I measure it differently.
-Measure on pin 22 from the oem IC (cut loose from circuitboard, so only on pin22 from the IC)
-Measured directly on the iCP12 outgoing signal.
QuoteCan you check the level low or hight of OEM pin 23/24 when RPM are above 100Hz?
Currently working on that.
The signals coming from pin 23 and 24 are only there in the low revs. They disappear to when RPM increases.
Did you set the outgoing voltage pulse on a low level? Less than 1V or could that cause by something else?
Quote from: Louis on February 15, 2015, 12:54:01 PM
No, I measure it differently.
-Measure on pin 22 from the oem IC (cut loose from circuitboard, so only on pin22 from the IC)
-Measured directly on the iCP12 outgoing signal.
Both pins 22 OEM and C0 ICP12 are not connected to something (only the oscilloscope ;) )
QuoteDid you set the outgoing voltage pulse on a low level? Less than 1V or could that cause by something else?
No signal the ICP12 outgoing pin should be 0V for low state and 5V for high state.
QuoteThe signals coming from pin 23 and 24 are only there in the low revs. They disappear to when RPM increases.
Does this means that 23 and 24 pins are set to 0V on high revs.
Jumping between workshop and pc at home :)
QuoteBoth pins 22 OEM and C0 ICP12 are not connected to something (only the oscilloscope ;) )
Yes, they are only connected to the oscilloscope 8)
Have it more precise now
From 92HZ and going down from there, the ICP12 does not follow the Oem IC
All above 92HZ till 420Hz the iCP12 follows the Oem IC perfectly (great work Olivier)
QuoteNo signal the ICP12 outgoing pin should be 0V for low state and 5V for high state.
Found that problem :-[
Probably destroyed a iCP12, used a new one and all is good
Made it now with a connector, so if i upload the firmware I disconnect the iCP12 from the CDI
QuoteDoes this means that 23 and 24 pins are set to 0V on high revs.
Yes, its mass and the pulse is 5V
The extra pulse I'm talking about can not interfere with this.
Its there from low till about 170Hz then its gone.
Also the pulses are compact and do run equally with the pickup pulse (at that time)
Got some info for you and a request ;)
From 92Hz the iCP12 firmware does not run equally with the oem IC
But this could be the firmware
My thoughts
Problem starts at 92Hz (92x60=5200/2=2760rpm) (2760RPM is the top off the curve)
Will it be easy to change the first part off your firmware curve?
If possible, can you make two new ones.?
-could you do the 19degrees till 2000rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?
-could you do the 19degrees till 1800rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?
Also can you make the iCP12 ignition pulse smaller in time?
The oem IC has a pulse length off about 150us all the time, it will be easier for me to compare.
Also noticed that the oem IC stops giving a ignition signal at exactly 60Hz it is gone below the 60HZ
(60x60=3600/2=1800rpm)
Think this is the part where the T2333 fits in using some of its signals
QuoteHave it more precise now
All above 92HZ till 420Hz the iCP12 follows the Oem IC perfectly (great work Olivier)
OK so the curve in ICP12 is OK with 0- 1/8 throttle
QuoteYes, its mass and the pulse is 5V
The extra pulse I'm talking about can not interfere with this.
Its there from low till about 170Hz then its gone.
Also the pulses are compact and do run equally with the pickup pulse (at that time)
Not clear to me right now ???
QuoteWill it be easy to change the first part off your firmware curve?
If possible, can you make two new ones.?
-could you do the 19degrees till 2000rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?
-could you do the 19degrees till 1800rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?
Can change the value every 500rpm so :
- curve a
- 0 -> 2000rpm => 19°
- 2500rpm => (19+28)/2 = 23° or 24°
- 3000rpm -> 14000rpm => 28°
- curve b
- 0 -> 1500rpm => 19°
- 2000rpm => 19°+(28-19)/3 = 22°
- 2500rpm => 19°+2*(28-19)/3 = 25°
- 3000rpm -> 14000rpm => 28°
QuoteOK so the curve in ICP12 is OK with 0- 1/8 throttle
Yes its perfect, but only from onwards 92Hz till (example) 420HZ
QuoteNot clear to me right now ???
That would probably have something to do with my poor explanation. O:-)
Here we have the signal coming from pin 23/24 (in yellow)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2Fraar%2520twee%2520puls_zpsqhh2lwah.jpg&hash=6dfe3dfcf10a72abec77a2e6869b6ca164dcc61b)
It is there from 20Hz till 170Hz, then gone.
It would probably be used somehow in the Oem configuration, but will not be used on our setup.
QuoteCan change the value every 500rpm
Ok, than it will only be curve a :) that i need
The only problem we need to solve is the part from 92Hz and downwards
I can only make steps off 500RPM with my pulse generator, but if use my engine pulse generator can see clearly that everything under 92Hz is not stable and is moving around.
(you can see it clearly with the use off a timing light)
First it thought with the use off a running engine (my own made pulse generator) more signals where given on the Oem CDI that perhaps could cause this jumping around.
But if I use the (digital pulse generator) no other pulses are given on the CDI, it is still the same.
You see the shifting/dancing on the oscilloscope.
Could it be that your firmware generator, has different values/calculations from that 92Hz and downwards?
Or,
Perhaps the long pulse is messing thinks up as the icP12 can't hold that pulse for that time?
Louis,
You have an email...
- ignition signal is 200µS at low state
- curve a
- 0rpm -> 2000rpm => 19°
- 2500rpm => (19+28)/2 = 23°
- 3000rpm -> 14000rpm => 28°
You should compare for a given rpm
- pickup + OEM pin 22 => measure the time between signal => time equivalent to advance
- pickup + ICP12 pin C0 => measure the time between signal
- OEM pin 22 + ICP12 pin C0 => should be synchronous :)
Olivier,
Thanks for the fast firmware postage.
Try to test it this week, and calculate the angular at serval points where it goes wrong with the iCP12 firmware.
Will report back
Got some results,
Think we are getting closer, but some small obstacles need to be taken.
all in the lower RPM
For some reason the firmware starts at about 29 till 30 degrees?
Have made a few setups to get a better idea about this
First setup)
Starting with the firm ware and with the use off the digital pulse generator
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F1621%2520firmware_zpspi8sbyym.jpg&hash=4e52075d67c1564dff4b04a5e98b377038c7c271)
Calculated back it is 30,26 degrees (can be seen to with the timing light)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F3126%2520firmware_zpsjpnraegp.jpg&hash=113985bddcec356fca358ef65333b31884a1e31d)
Calculated back it is 27,40 degrees
Second setup
The use off a running engine (oem IC)
Clearly you can see the holding off the 19 degrees generated by the T2333 as a big fat pulse
It is there all the way till 60Hz (as we know there is the point where the oem IC takes over as the ignition curve starts at 1800RPM)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F2205%2520lopen%2520motor%252019graden_zpsu3h5dmor.jpg&hash=9560e06ccd66d2faeef130b80e3111547744522d)
all 19 degrees till 60Hz, here you have a shot off 59,07Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F5907%2520lopen%2520motor%252019graden_zpsurdzvdcu.jpg&hash=ae4e7647729b82324449e917f233f7d2447828a2)
And here on a touch over 60Hz, as you can see the oem IC is moving the pulse
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F6024%2520lopen%2520motor%252019graden_zpskdhhbmbo.jpg&hash=7cb8b0f704fb47650780f1aba76520f62f9811e0)
Third Setup.
Know this, I combined the Oem Ic pulse and iCP12 pulse to getter
Good to know is the iCP 12 gives a 5V pulse and the oem IC a 4,8V (to know witch is witch)
Here you have Oem en iCP12 (ignition pulse at 29,4 degrees)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F1714%2520lopende%2520motor%2520met%2520firmware_zpsql6np7ak.jpg&hash=610b23eeab7bfb1ce7b793c4753270af0138278c)
as RPM rises it goes slowly towards the OEM IC pulse
(Good to see here are the (fat) pulse generated by the T2333 the small pulse in frond off that is the oem IC pulse and in frond off that pulse is the iCP 12 firmware)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F7699%2520lopende%2520motor%2520met%2520firmware_zpszuocts3x.jpg&hash=3e2ac929fc05743bd3fbfd2159c29474baf6fdd8)
At about 90Hz they start to meld together (Seen in the two pulse heights)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F9083%2520lopende%2520motor%2520met%2520firmware_zpsmzyxf32q.jpg&hash=7695a1ebb48ceb554a88ff7ecab4c7696389ade4)
After 90Hz they stay melted and are exactly the same in the complete RPM range (great work Olivier) 8)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fignition%2F1374%2520lopende%2520motor%2520met%2520firmware_zpsfsqoqpps.jpg&hash=3c4ae5f526d104498c24f63b54dc66b729b5229d)
As we are getting close, First question is way is the firmware not at 19 degrees?
I belief you start the curve at 19 degrees from 0RPM till 2000RPM?
Can see clearly you have shorten the pulse, think that works great as the shifting around ios almost gone.
We need only to solve the first part :)
I've just collected from Japan a 3XC-30 CDI to look at and then make it a donor for programmable CDI.
for detail check the 2XT CDI thread.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FCDI_EH_PCB_01.jpg&hash=6810cc8bd1440b11519d55c37f22dc6df595d3b9)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FCDI_EH_PCB_02.jpg&hash=90addcb5207dd744c97db06bb5294fd3e05cb2c7)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fypvsbox.free.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FCDI_EH_PCB_03.jpg&hash=fc86e149b40ad5f6b3c9439a80e3e2df92e63d53)
That looking very nice :)
Will connect everything back up, so I can start measuring where left it.
(From memory), the problem what's there, is only on the lower rpm and only there when using a running engine (washing machine setup)
When using a digital setup, all what good.
Seems like the 3MA circuit board, is getting a pulse somewhere with changes the signal a bid.
Perhaps the discharging of the capacitor (lower RPM takes more time) messes thinks up.
Will report back on this
Yes I'll try to make an "In the box" loom with these 2 boards.
This setup will be useful for racing with stock looking box ;D ;D
Just bought a 8CH Oscilloscope, with all probes 8)
Will not be a high tech device, but good enough for measuring the thinks I like
The idea is to measure on the CDI
1) IC ignition signal (oem CDI)
2) IC ignition signal (Icp-12)
3) IC pickup signal (oem CDI)
4) IC pickup signal (Icp-12)
5) IC signal low rpm (oem CDI)
6) Pickup signal (at sensor)
7) Ignition signal (coil)
8) Free
But then all signals at the same time, it would give me some good data.
Will let you guys know when I have it
Hello Olivier,
When you have time can your read this part on my site?
http://www.tzr3ma.com/8-channel-oscilloscope-measurements.html
Got the 8 channel oscilloscope and have my first measurements.
Now you can see what I mend with under the 3000rpm the icp12 is dancing not holding his place.
All above the 3000rpm is great and it is spot on with the oem curve.
Personally I think something on the CDI it self is cousins this, and my guess for now is the T2333
At low revs the CDI is firing itself at the end off the pickup signal till 1850rpm (19 degrees line)
Think the T2333 is programmed to do so and the rising edge off the pickup is not good till 3000rpm
Will it be possible to program the iCP12 to fire at the back off the pickupsignal till +/-1850rpm and than to the frond?
There is a difference between measuring the data with a running engine or giving a digital pulse.
Here a small movie, you can see clearly that something is enlarging the oem ic pickup pulse and its firing directly after it after it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1JWVjhB1rU
To explain
Channel 1) yellow: pickup pulse oem IC
Channel 2) light blue: pickup pulse iCP12
Channel 3) deep purple: iCP12 ignition signal
Channel 4) green: oem ignition signal
Channel 5) light blue: thiristor gate signal
Cheers
Will look when I can take some time.
No bike related some in recent time.
Well guys, specially for this I created a new work place.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FForum%2520stuff%2Fnieuwe%2520opstelling_zpsgbgk21ea.jpg&hash=7bee6ad11ccefe87d038be3d951817facdec6869)
Ordered a frequency generator witch should generate the needed pulse for this project.
(as it is possible to draw your own pulse, and update it in the generator)
When I have this generator it will be possible to create a signal like the pickup or a signal needed for the IC
Sadly do to quick/wrong connection I destroyed my test 3MA CDI
So had to replace it with a new one, here we have the new 3MA test CDI. Uncut and connected to the oscilloscope
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fnew%2520cdi%2520unit_zpspnlf1h0i.jpg&hash=57d4f6a169f620b4bf245f23f4f34df766c0b0d0)
Measuring for now
1) Thyristor gate (switch for unloading the big capacitor)
2) Pickup signal (pickup from flywheel)
3) Pickup signal on the IC
4) Outgoing ignition signal on the IC
Target is to get it working this year with the Help off Olivier and forum enthusiasts
Will update this soon as I'm focused on this one.
As Olivier is picking up his CDI project I can't stay behind ;)
The ordered pulse generator, if all goes well it will be delivered this week.
Hope this gives me more measuring possibilities.
But I couldn't wait, wanted to tell the problem more precise so other forum members can see/think with me. :)
So I used my testing machine, here a small explanation off the new setup.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fuitleg_4hkj1278.jpg&hash=8c0fb85704f45c3da734d8b1250e0b7eda77f5c8)
More details can be seen/read here:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/solving-the-problem.html
Louis,
Can you check if the light blue signal built using the pickup sinusoidal wave had always the same duration ?
This square pulse is made by the electronics for the IC.
Olivier.
QuoteCan you check if the light blue signal built using the pickup sinusoidal wave had always the same duration ?
Will check this, I suspect it is the same.
But perhaps with the changing at 60Hz it might be different.
QuoteThis square pulse is made by the electronics for the IC.
Yes is the signal from the pickup lowered by components (mostly resistors) just before entering the T2333
You see it in my ''new setup'' picture
Just before the T2333 you see a soldered red wire that's the point where I measure this.
The function generator has arrived :)
Will try to get some measurement tomorrow.
Wanted to do it today, but now with the new bike I was a bid carried away
Looks like the behavior of the 3MA cdi giving it a digital pulse (without the running simulation) is behaving completely different.
Still working out how to deal with that.
Although I found a interesting point for you.
Everything lower than 60HZ the ignition is firing at the back off the incoming pickup pulse
However the length is determined from the wave pulse pickup signal (see red arrows)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Flengte%2520onder%2520de%252060Hz_zpscd1rzy0w.jpg&hash=8a557e594267a44b2c90d2eb9293a09e5cb6db70)
Think the T2333 is doing a lot off changing/calculating there
Here you have some examples off a running engine. (IC incoming pickup pulse length/duration)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F65_zpsdxfl7qi1.png&hash=6552c164751bc637e4ebff9c610b186eceff0617)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F60_zpscwvmtwfa.png&hash=152cc712de8c7ec90d951f4ab621c6516ef5ef68)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F90_zpswkaxqmye.png&hash=2346b078bcce0ac110f399f72cefefa5e853ed23)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F110_zpsrlo5xhz7.png&hash=cad21829e46bc1cbe67c85aee6cf0e9bdfcb32b3)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F120_zpsxjk2mtk8.png&hash=57a4d9ef6143655b58d3b8c74783f4f772dafc73)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F140_zpsss0y1at0.png&hash=a7563101b8a644879cc87832deedab8643935983)
Hope this clear things up :)
We've found the same recently on a 3xv with TZ ignition Louis. The CDI fires the spark plug directly off the rear of the lobe until a certain value of rpm, then it switches to the front, and delays the spark to give the programmed in timing.
Dan
Quote from: maccas on March 12, 2016, 01:59:23 PM
We've found the same recently on a 3xv with TZ ignition Louis. The CDI fires the spark plug directly off the rear of the lobe until a certain value of rpm, then it switches to the front, and delays the spark to give the programmed in timing.
Dan
We don't care about this because we have to make a choice on how we manage the iCP12 pin RC0 which is connected to OEM IC pin 22 using as a reference the rising edge of OEM IC pin 13.
If Louis could measure every 200rpm the delay between OEM IC pin 13 and OEM IC pin 22 edges, we could compute the real advance curve or the real delays to have in the iCP12.
If below 60Hz, delay is a constant value or always linked to the falling edge of OEM IC pin 13 THEN advance is not flat.
We don't need to reproduce the choices made back in the days... but make a"modern" ignition.
+1 with TZR-V4 !
It is not resonable to reproduce choices that do not meet the Technical Equipment available today.
I do not even talking about the economic choices that were made in the 80 '...
And it's in this I do not like the approach made by ignitech who want to hide behind the argument of just replacing old cdi ... to deny all criticisms O:-)
Quote from: tzr-v4 on March 17, 2016, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: maccas on March 12, 2016, 01:59:23 PM
We've found the same recently on a 3xv with TZ ignition Louis. The CDI fires the spark plug directly off the rear of the lobe until a certain value of rpm, then it switches to the front, and delays the spark to give the programmed in timing.
Dan
We don't care about this because we have to make a choice on how we manage the iCP12 pin RC0 which is connected to OEM IC pin 22 using as a reference the rising edge of OEM IC pin 13.
If Louis could measure every 200rpm the delay between OEM IC pin 13 and OEM IC pin 22 edges, we could compute the real advance curve or the real delays to have in the iCP12.
If below 60Hz, delay is a constant value or always linked to the falling edge of OEM IC pin 13 THEN advance is not flat.
We don't need to reproduce the choices made back in the days... but make a"modern" ignition.
Don't worry, I wasn't saying that you should do this with your new programmable cdi. It was just an observation!
The oem CDI manufacturers must have done it for a reason though. When kickstarting the bike, the engine speed isn't stable. So to save the CDI trying to calculate a timing figure they just fired directly off the rear of the lobe. Makes sense to me! Then when the engine speed increases a bit and engine speed becomes more stable, the calculations can begin and the timing can be sorted properly?
Dan
No problem Dan.
If we want to go forward we need to concentrate on the main goals:
- have the OEM ignition curve replicated
- have a OEM YPVS valve curve replicated
The iCP12 should work in order to mimic the OEM IC bur not work exactly the same way.
iCP12 has a 20MHz external clock and the internal clock is even higher not like the TZR250 OEM board.
If the firmware level is sorted then we can go on programmable ignition steps :
- windows based program
- serial link (wired, bluetooth,...)
QuoteIf Louis could measure every 200rpm the delay between OEM IC pin 13 and OEM IC pin 22 edges, we could compute the real advance curve or the real delays to have in the iCP12.
That was the idea already Olivier :), that's one off the reason I bought the function generator. (possible off making small steps)
It will take a bid off time to do it, hope to have more time next week. (tomorrow I'm off to Belgium)
QuoteIf below 60Hz, delay is a constant value or always linked to the falling edge of OEM IC pin 13 THEN advance is not flat.
Think you make a small mistake with the explanation off the lobe.
The signal seen is
one lobe.
When Rising edge off the lobe passes it gives a positive peek with is (filtered away) then the voltage drops as the lobe passes, when the falling edge passes it gives a negative pulse.
The T2333 creates the pulse for the IC to understand. (It can't be taken away that easily)
I'm thinking that its calculating its pulse length by the length off a lobe when one lobe passes (rising edge and falling edge)
This is done until 60HZ then the Oem Ic takes it over
If you remove the whole IC the CDI is
still working on the calculations from the T2333. (on a 3ma)
Perhaps shown here better on a older setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1JWVjhB1rU
The top two are the incoming signal, you need to think the (wave) pickup signal between them.
The lower signals are the outgoing signals.
Small purple one is the firm ware
Think its is done like Dan describes it.
QuoteThe oem CDI manufacturers must have done it for a reason though. When kickstarting the bike, the engine speed isn't stable. So to save the CDI trying to calculate a timing figure they just fired directly off the rear of the lobe. Makes sense to me! Then when the engine speed increases a bit and engine speed becomes more stable, the calculations can begin and the timing can be sorted properly?
Unlike modern Cdi's who needs a 12V to work, a 3MA CDI works on its own generated power.
When starting the bike the CDI needs to work from 0V to 5V within one kick.
So a quick stable basic base advance is needed and the T2333 is providing this part.
When piston is at top dead center where would be the back off the lobe? at 19 degrees.
Save and simple to just fire at the back off the lobe without any delay/calculations until 60Hz
QuoteIf we want to go forward we need to concentrate on the main goals:
- have the OEM ignition curve replicated
- have a OEM YPVS valve curve replicated
Some basics can be found here :)
0-curve: http://www.tzr3ma.com/curve-0--close-throttle-.html
Ypvs curve: http://www.tzr3ma.com/speed-limiter-working.html
Quote from: Louis on March 18, 2016, 10:12:02 PM
When Rising edge off the lobe passes it gives a positive peek with is (filtered away) then the voltage drops as the lobe passes, when the falling edge passes it gives a negative pulse.
The pick-up is an inductive sensor so voltage is created when the magnetic field is modified so peaks should be at their maximum when the lobe edge is passing at the middle of the metal part of the pickup. Then signal will drop to 0V because magnetic field is not modified when the metal part of the pickup is fully in front the lobe. The peak value will be change with the rpm because coil voltage is proportional to the magnetic field time derivative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor)
Quote from: Louis on March 18, 2016, 10:12:02 PM
The T2333 creates the pulse for the IC to understand. (It can't be taken away that easily)
I'm thinking that its calculating its pulse length by the length off a lobe when one lobe passes (rising edge and falling edge)
Yes the T2333 IC is there to create a 5v square signal with allows the IC to detect the signal. Yes the length of this square signal is linked the the lobe length (arc length) but as the rpm increase the duration of this square will decrease.
Quote from: Louis on March 18, 2016, 10:12:02 PMIf you remove the whole IC the CDI is still working on the calculations from the T2333. (on a 3ma)
do you mean that spark is created even if the IC is removed from the board ?
From my point of view, if we want 19° of advance from 1250rpm (idle) to 2000rpm then we could use as a reference the rising edge of the OEM IC pin 13. This edge occurs always at the same crank position because this is due to mechanical stuffs :
- position of lobes with respect to the woodruff key on the rotor
- position of the woodruff key on the crankshaft with respect to the TDC
- position of the pickup on the crank case
The use of a flat 19° for all the rpm will allow us to compute the mechanical angle to use in the firmware to have a 19° measurement using a strobe light. As the mechanical angle is static (not linked to rpm), then the firmware can compute the delay at each rpm to have the correct advance.
On my TZR250 2XT, I've found that mechanical advance angle value is 36°. In my firmware, if I use a flat curve at 19° with this value then the strobe light displays 19°.
I think this is the way to go for the firmware development.
Any comment is more than well come :D
QuoteThe pick-up is an inductive sensor so voltage is created when the magnetic field is modified so peaks should be at their maximum when the lobe edge is passing at the middle of the metal part of the pickup. Then signal will drop to 0V because magnetic field is not modified when the metal part of the pickup is fully in front the lobe. The peak value will be change with the rpm because coil voltage is proportional to the magnetic field time derivative
That should work in theory like that, but in practice you measure something ells :)
Think is has to do with a rest charge/pulse from the spool
When the rising edge passes the pickup the pulse has a
bounce in it.
If you take the pickup lose you see a metal plate and a magnet on the back off it.
When rising edge passes the pickup that pulse is bouncing (one Magnet field bounce) It bounces of the metal lobe it self ( to do with the less airgap between lobe and pickup)
When the falling edge off the lobe passes there is no bounce because the airgap between pickup and now (outside flywheel) bigger.
It does not influence that magnet field
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fclarcana.info%2Fproj%2Fmagnetometer%2FheadZoom.png&hash=62c0d45e99fe45ca0794d8d67a459111f6e575ba)
I'm almost off to Belgium so can't show you the yamaha pulse its just the other way around, you will measure it with your setup.
If I'm back on Sunday and have time I'll try to make you a snapshot
That bouncing part is used to filter it the peek away with some resistors and I belies some transistors
Quotebut as the rpm increase the duration of this square will decrease.
Yes that is shown at the above movie, until 60 hz the T2333 is creating that pulse to fire at the back off the lobe
Quotedo you mean that spark is created even if the IC is removed from the board ?
Yes it
still works and has a flat 19 degrees (perhaps with a slight movement) until a certain rpm than it stops working.
It needs to stop this otherwise we wont be able to go lower than 19 degrees.
The T2333 is working until a surten duration off the pickup pulse is reached a certain value than it stops creating the pulse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1JWVjhB1rU
What's the movie closely, you can see the T2333 pulse is still there.
From a certain rpm you see a pulse growling out off it that is the IC pulse, the other big pulse is still the T2333
It has no influence anymore because it is firing at the first pulse
QuoteFrom my point of view, if we want 19° of advance from 1250rpm (idle) to 2000rpm then we could use as a reference the rising edge of the OEM IC pin 13. This edge occurs always at the same crank position because this is due to mechanical stuffs :
- position of lobes with respect to the woodruff key on the rotor
- position of the woodruff key on the crankshaft with respect to the TDC
- position of the pickup on the crank case
Think all the idle and till 2000rpm isn't the problem. (That can be programmed if we want)
But
starting will be difficult, by kick starting the bike the revs are not 1250rpm it will be more like 100 or 200rpm
Noting is at this point stable (voltage, rpm, etc)
Think therefore it is just firing at the back off the lobe save and easy, no calculations needed.
Perhaps not entirely a flat 19 degrees (doubt if you can see this with a timing ligh) but good enough for starting the engine, once the engine is running (60HZ) IC is taking over.
QuoteOn my TZR250 2XT, I've found that mechanical advance angle value is 36°. In my firmware, if I use a flat curve at 19° with this value then the strobe light displays 19°.
Don't know if the 2XT or 2MA works the same as a 3MA
But you can well be seeing (with your timing light) the T2333 at work creating the flat curve.
QuoteI think this is the way to go for the firmware development.
It is already working great :), its only the first part where we need to change thinks.
It will be difficult to remove the working off the T2333,
For the 3MA, we need to sort the T2333 IC.
Check how it is connected to ignition IC pin 22.
On my notes, Ignition pin must be HIGH (5v) by default and falling edge fires the ignition.
On your scope pin 22 signal is the opposite... can you verify Louis.
if T2333 output is connected to IC pin 22 then ignition is fired by the falling edge of T2333 because the OEM firmware set pin 22 to LOW until an rpm value (60Hz) then OEM firmware force to HIGH so T2333 falling edge is masked and the IC is the master of the falling edge... no more T2333 influences.
My 10%
Just got back from Belgium, When I over read my last posts
I may get the feeling I'm pushing it and it can be read as ''I know it all''
Let me say this is certainly not the case, and on this software/logical electronically part I'm a new bee.
So apologies for the somewhat ''direct reading''
Its to late to jump back in my workshop as I'm tired off the 4 hour trip back.
Can tell you this, that on a 3MA-CDI the T2333 is placed parallel with the IC outgoing signal
Outgoing signal 22 goes at the back off the CDI directly to T2333 (From memory) connected at the pin nexst at the incoming IC signal
Louis, I'm back working on a firmware dedicated to the 3MA but I need to know if the output signal from the OEM IC which drives the ignition is :
- set to 0V below 1800rpm or 5V (should be 0V)
- set to 5V above 1800rpm and goes to 0V to fire the spark.
0V below 1800rpm should allow the back lobe to fire the ignition.
Do you have a working iCP12 so I can email you a firmware for testing?
Going back to the lab ;)
Hello Olivier,
From what I can see the Oem IC outgoing signal is giving a Constant 5V and the ignition pulse is Created By pulling it to 0V
The ignition pulse voltage is not changing at 1800rpm
Only the IC pulls is growling out off the T2333 Pulse (While rpm is rising)
What I'm thinking is,
The T2333 is generating a 19 degrees pulse.
ITs doing this until 60Hz by firing directly at the back off the lobe.
After 60Hz the Oem IC is starting his selected curve (Measured at the front off the lobe)
In the meantime the T2333 is still presuming his 19 degrees pulse, but the oem IC pulse is in frond of it so no influence there.
The T2333 is holdig the 19 degrees pulse till
170Hz (after 170 Hz the T2333 stops generating it)
This needs to be done in order too let the Oem-IC pulse go lower than the 19 degrees. in the high rpm's
I have a fully function iCP-12 connected so yes I can test your firmware 8)
If its not that much effort, could you program one firmware packet
Like the following
-Until 60 hz the iCP is not giving a signal
-At 60 hz (1800rpm) starting the curve at 19degrees
-Then 28 degrees at 2800rpm or 3000rpm (the rest like the 0 curve)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fcdicurves3ma-00_zpsd12799c6-1-.jpg&hash=af9c37509cac29857e03a6bb3f8ed80643bdb3ae)
QuoteGoing back to the lab ;)
Great :)
Louis in you mail you should have the firmware :
CDI_3MA-36-5_Curve0-1_8-1800.hex
Mechanical advance angle : 36.5°
Curve 3MA : 0-1/8 throttle
RPM Lobe : 1800rpm
Below 1800rpm, the iCP12 should keep the outgoing signal to 0V which should allow the back lobe firing.
Above 1800rpm, the iCP12 keep the outgoing signal to 5V and fire the ignition according to 3MA curve.
Please report the testing.
Louis,
Been able to do some testing at lunch time and firmware has a bug.
Will look on later this evening.
Will keep you posted.
QuoteBeen able to do some testing at lunch time and firmware has a bug.
Yes, I noticed
I thought a bug was a small blip in the software. But now its dancing all over the place.
Will wait on your new firm ware :)
Think we are getting close now
I've been working on last evening and I've not solved the problem yet.
I think the low rpm capture process has a bug when it goes below 2000rpm.
So testing below or above 1800rpm is not working properly.
Waiting lunch time to work on.
Report back :)
We are getting closer, that is fore sure 8)
You can see clearly that the iCP-12 is at ground until 60Hz (then it jumps right in)
The problem now is the part from 60Hz till 91Hz there its not stable.
From exactly 91Hz the curve is the same as oem.
Shot from 90,8Hz
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F90Hz_zpsv2ns9gns.jpg&hash=ae16e6f6ecf1991b0ec3b30d15ec9e213a910f04)
Shot from 92Hz (Difficult to get it close to 91Hz with my testing machine)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F91Hz_zpsjh2ipumy.jpg&hash=655e156fd52ea3a8e839412741b10eb96704c86c)
The problem lies between the 60Hz and 91Hz
Could it be that the iCP-12 has it difficult calculating the degrees in that short rpm range?
It makes no sense, it's hopping around until 91Hz and than its stable.
Perhaps the oem ic calculations are at the back off the lobe until 91Hz than it uses the frond off the lobe?
Made a small movie from it to make it visible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZKJtytWGg&feature=youtu.be
Green is Oem ic
Blue is iCP softwarere (it is jumping in at 60Hz)
for some reason I find all this fascinating although I have absolutely no idea what any of it means.
it may as well be in some foreign language for all the sense it makes but I keep coming back to it.
Are you guys using a flywheel with two lobes? So 91Hz is approx 2730 rpm?
Dan
Yes we are using 2 lobes flywheel.
So 6000rpm is 200Hz frequency.
f Hz = 2 x rpm / 60
On my test bench, iCP12 output is grounded till 1800rpm (60Hz).
If rpm is set to 1800rpm then the noise on signal will make the thresholding flickers.
I think it is not a big issue as the 3MA will never cruise at 1800rpm ;D
I don't see why Louise experiment some flickering from 60Hz to 91Hz.
We need to investigate this.
The iCP12 ignition signal should be :
- 0V below 1800rpm
- 5V above 1800rpm and drive to 0V for 0.2ms
Louis on your oscilloscope iCP12 signal is reversed !!!! Is it a scope configuration or what ?
Hello Olivier,
The scope is set correct.
The long blue line is 5V and the pulse top is 0V (the blue mark for the measured channel is at the top)
Your firmware is working correct.
Until 60Hz it is 0V after 60Hz it is going to 5V and the ignition pulse it selve is pulled to 0V
If your firmware is using the same calculation for the whole curve then I think the T2333 is making the oem ic signal by using the back off the lobe until 91Hz.
Then it goes to the frond off the lobe and that is the same as your firmware.
Because the T2333 is creating that oem IC pulse you can't see it on the scope it self
Can you program the iCP12 like the following (just to try if my idea works like this.
Until 60Hz icp is 0v
From 60Hz till 91Hz use the back off the lobe as tricker point
After 90Hz use the front off the lobe
Like to see what that does :)
Louis,
I'll try to use the Easter weekend to do the trick.
Using the back lobe from 60Hz to 91Hz then the lobe length will impact to advance calculation (change the value of the mechanical angle).
We could try.
Ok that sounds difficult, I start to doubt if this is what Yamaha has programmed.
Would it help if I measure the iCP-12 firmware degrees? (in the range off 60 till 91Hz)
I may give a better view on the problem.
Louis,
Can you email or post here scope capture (with the best resolution) for
- 65Hz
- 75Hz
- 85Hz
On each capture we need to know the time legend to do come computation.
We could compute the delay for the pickup signal (rising and falling) to the ignition edge the advance and compare with the OEM curve.
We could check if it is front or back edge.
Hope this helps Olivier
Did some measurements for you, with the following results.
Green=Oem IC
Purple=icp 12
In the lower bank you see the time
Measured it like this
http://www.tzr3ma.com/how-to-read-out-digital.html
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F65%2520oem_zpsucrliwca.jpg&hash=3c4d24e7c2fff163541e709713c61b5da71271e8)
65Hz oem ic delay 1480us =18,55 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F65%2520icp_zpsmddjstee.jpg&hash=7f699f770f0bd5aebe69c011afacd66c41009e20)
65Hz icp12 delay 915us = 25,19 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F72%2520ge_zpse9onondw.jpg&hash=17eddd28f07dfc6f8b48a45f902b37af1ac8daaa)
72Hz icp12 and oem are the same 1260us = 19,67 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F75%2520icp_zpss4kmaw1o.jpg&hash=117212079b7f67e4939d9c7df4396abfe2effa60)
75Hz icp12 delay 2360us = 4,02 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F75%2520oem_zpsevghtehn.jpg&hash=00d51456a69d6dd7e4e8480b189e49a17a9cdd14)
75Hz oem ic delay 1150us = 20,02 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F85%2520icp_zpsae59brk7.jpg&hash=9191ece27654c5a92667671e9ed5d1a86c5eae41)
85Hz icp12 delay 2100us = 3,65 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F85%25207oem_zpshkil2mos.jpg&hash=ea5f3aa66a4e29bdd840c99889e048a249374b7c)
85Hz oem ic delay 815us = 23,45 degrees
iCP-12
65,69Hz=1970rpm=25,19degrees
72,05Hz=2160rpm=19,67degrees
75,30Hz=2259rpm=4,02degrees
85,62Hz=2568rpm= 3,65degrees
Oem-ic
65,69Hz=1970rpm=18,51degrees
72,05Hz=2160rpm=19,67degrees
75,30Hz=2259rpm=20,02degrees
85,62Hz=2568rpm=23,45degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fongeveer_zpsszlidias.jpg&hash=3bf6eb39ffc60ab2b4d35fb49df09bf84b1dd06d)
Measured results seems to be correct, as in the movie you see the iCP-12 moving from left to right while rpm is rising
But if you like to re calculate
This is not my strongest point :-[
Start to think its not a Lobe thing, the difference is to big for a lobe length
Might be a software problem
The light blue signal is the incoming pickup signal at the OEM IC ?
As I don't really understand your oscilloscope... because signals seems to be reversed !!!!
Does the little arrows (on the left) indicate the 0V reference ?
Is the signal normally to 5V and goes to 0V when lobe passes in front of the pickup ?
If it is the case then 3MA is triggered on falling edge not rising edge :o
QuoteThe light blue signal is the incoming pickup signal at the OEM IC ?
Yes
QuoteAs I don't really understand your oscilloscope... because signals seems to be reversed !!!!
Does the little arrows (on the left) indicate the 0V reference ?
Is the signal normally to 5V and goes to 0V when lobe passes in front of the pickup ?
Yes
QuoteIf it is the case then 3MA is triggered on falling edge not rising edge
That will be the question, as from 91/92 hz your calculation is spot on until 14000rpm.
Your calculation is at the rising edge so that part must be the same. Before 91Hz thinks are difficult to understand.
Will try again with new info
Picture 1
This is the Oscilloscope connected with the CDI unit off
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F0V_zps1xuz4h5f.jpg&hash=bfafe6ee541147c20ee2116642085fd827270c1a)
Picture 2
This is Oscilloscope connected and CDI unit on
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F12V_zpsoh4q0ruu.jpg&hash=158c6afdabdbc5ed781f088cc5ef76d0034ef340)
Light blue oem ignition pulse
Green oem ic pulse
They all go to 5V and for the pulse they are pulled to 0V
Some new info:
Until 60Hz the end of the incoming IC pulse is the same length as the falling edge off the lobe
(Positioned the lines so you can see clearly where it creates and stops making a pulse)
This is 60Hz just before the start off the iCP-12
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F60hz_zpshpida71i.jpg&hash=8b20381ae0ac2a498568497fb7c6e85a49216802)
My guess is that after 60Hz the oem ic goes from back off the lobe to frond off the lobe calculations
But this is unsure :-[
The T2333 let the ignition fire at the back off the lobe
until 69Hz faling edge off the incoming ignition puse has no influence
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F69Hz_zpsv97dhsbf.jpg&hash=5ccab38f17c7811230fe44118643b2270139d70b)
After 69Hz the ignition point has no reverence with the end off the lobe, as you can see here. So it must be calculated at the frond off the lobe
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fdfsfdsfdsfdsfdsfdsfdsfdsfds_zpstkd6hlyn.jpg&hash=9b4ae20fb0a602518e5950f2dab1c471e33698fb)
This is not that the pulse is getting wider, but the ic is calculating the ignition point from that pulse
As you can see here (around 80Hz)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fgfdgfdgfdgfdgfdgfjhghjtyerrtetrf_zps9kp0bnck.jpg&hash=3734e581735478bc80eed0a16cc1f936eb419b3e)
The oem calculated ignition point is in frond of the T2333 point
Until 91/92Hz than the iCP-12 is jumping (within 1Hz) to the same values as the oem IC and it stays there until 14000rpm
I'm thinking (absolutely not sure)
That the T2333 lets the ignition fire at the back off the lobe until 69Hz
That the oem ic starts calculating after 60 Hz (the jump you see in the incoming ignition pulse)
The calculation shows it self on the scope after 69Hz (as you can see the pulse growing out off the T2333 pulse)
Questions:
Is the oem IC calculating his curve at the back off the lobe until 91HZ?
Im getting a headache over this one ::)
I'll look at your screen shots tomorrow.
We need to understand what the OEM is going then we could reproduce it.
No problem :)
When you have time, could you send me a flat 19 degrees curve?
IT should be close to the T2333 pulse. (until +/-4000rpm its close to 19degrees)
if the flat curve becomes twisted, we can calculate back
Cheers
Yes I'll email you a flat 19° curve with the modification below 1800rpm.
A solution could be to add "hidden" offsets where the iCP12 firmware is now where to match the OEM curve.
But as a researcher ;D I want to understand what is going on there.
QuoteYes I'll email you a flat 19° curve with the modification below 1800rpm.
Ok I will see it. :)
QuoteA solution could be to add "hidden" offsets where the iCP12 firmware is now where to match the OEM curve.
But as a researcher ;D I want to understand what is going on there.
Yes its the same here.
Like to know what this is cousins.
Last firmware sent is a mess => on falling edge.
Will email a new one. ;)
Here some testing on my iCP12 (connected to TDR250 board)
Lobe signal is emulated by an arduino board directly connected to pin 13
No OEM board electronics involved in going from pickup to pin 13
Below 1800rpm no output on pin 22
At 1801rpm output on pin 22 flickers due to comparison condition (noise on signal)
At 1802rpm output on pin 22 is ON
Below the screen shots of my oscilloscope
Here some calculations:
1950rpm => 64.95Hz
Tdelay = 6 * 250 * 10-6 = 0.0015 s
Speed = 360 * f * 1/2 = 360 * 64.95 * 0.5 = 11691 °/s
Advance = 36.5 - Speed * Tdelay = 36.5 - 17.5365 = 18.96°
3000rpm => 100Hz
Tdelay = 3.9 * 250 * 10-6 = 0.000975 s
Speed = 360 * 100 * 0.5 = 18000 °/s
Advance = 36.5 - 17.55 = 18.95°
4000rpm => 133Hz
Tdelay = 2.9 * 250 * 10-6 = 0.000725 s
Speed = 360 * 133 * 0.5 = 23940 °/s
Advance = 36.5 - 17.3565 = 19.14°
6000rpm => 200Hz (199.26Hz)
Tdelay = 4.95 * 110 * 10-6 = 0.000495 s
Speed = 360 * 199.26 * 0.5 = 35866.8 °/s
Advance = 36.5 - 17.75 = 18.745°
Sadly mine measurements are different then yours
Here is what I measured.
65,62HZ
Begin ignition ic pulse vs begin icp-12 outgoing pulse (high purple one)
Icp12 firmware -5,22degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F212121_zpscm4zgutg.jpg&hash=08b41bb3a095878a662a4a656e3247fb127195c4) (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/tzr250-3ma/media/212121_zpscm4zgutg.jpg.html)
Begin ignition ic pulse vs begin outgoing oem ignition pulse (green pulse)
Oem firmware 18,1degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F545_zpsr1nb9bi6.jpg&hash=2b4804794ffc0c3d9ddc04a8ad52d3296902e1b5) (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/tzr250-3ma/media/545_zpsr1nb9bi6.jpg.html)
Her is 99,60Hz
Icp12 firmware -1,82degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fhgh2121_zpsiofep5xz.jpg&hash=2224db3313e3a45ffd853f0313aae5de174bfdab) (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/tzr250-3ma/media/hgh2121_zpsiofep5xz.jpg.html)
Begin ignition ic pulse vs begin second outgoing oem ignition pulse (wider green pulse)
Oem firmware 17,93degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Ffdfd3213_zpsukdrbktj.jpg&hash=de84bae88d5958f837e4bfb9299d7bc4c57eba31) (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/tzr250-3ma/media/fdfd3213_zpsukdrbktj.jpg.html)
I can give a pulse on pin 13 but The Oem IC will not react (gives no outgoing signal)
It needs to work through the T2333
Are these iCP-12 calculations done from falling edge off the lobe?
No calculations are from rising edge.
3MA board is very difficult to understand >:(
I'm thinking of something.
To get 18 degrees with your firmware I have to calculate the mechanical angular at 56 degrees
What influence has firing at the back off the lobe compared with the mechanical angular.
Your firm ware was spot on from 91HZ
Could it be that the firing at the back off the lobe until 91HZ the oem software needs a other mechanical angular?
and that this is shown now when measured
Quote from: Louis on April 01, 2016, 10:49:35 PM
To get 18 degrees with your firmware I have to calculate the mechanical angular at 56 degrees
No mechanical angle is 36.5°.
This value is the angle between front lobe on sensor (rising edge of the pin 13) to the TDC.
When the rising edge is detected and the rpm value computed then firmware computes the Tdelay to wait before firing the spark (falling edge of pin 22) according to the wanted Advance value.
Quote from: Louis on April 01, 2016, 10:49:35 PM
Your firm ware was spot on from 91HZ
Could it be that the firing at the back off the lobe until 91HZ the oem software needs a other mechanical angular?
and that this is shown now when measured
I don't understand what make the iCP12 going wrong below 91Hz >:( >:( >:(
I think some electronic components are altering the ignition
QuoteI don't understand what make the iCP12 going wrong below 91Hz >:( >:( >:(
I think some electronic components are altering the ignition
The theory will not be the problem :)
The mechanical angular is set on 36,5 because we think it is firing at the begin off the lobe (rising edge)
But
What if the CDI fires at the end off the lobe falling edge
The lob length it self should make the mechanical angular longer. (56,5????)
We see clearly that in the lower revs the 3Ma cdi fires at the end off the lobe.
Can you make a firmware with mechanical angular set on 56,5 degrees?
I could make a firmware with :
- firing at the back lobe
- 56.5° mechanical advance
Will email tomorrow.
That will be great.
You can leaf the not firing till 1800rpm part on this one.
See it as a experimental curve
I can see easier if the iCP-12 pulse is closer to the oem pulse if the firmware starts quicker
Example start firing at 500rpm till 12000rpm
you have a new firmware
CDI_3MA-BL-56-5-19-1800.hex
3MA => for 3MA CDI
BL => back lobe
56-5 => 56.5° mechanical angle
19 => flat curve at 19°
1800 => no ignition from firmware below 1800rpm
Going to surf now see the results later.
Hello Olivier, hope the surfing went well :)
I have found the problem.
Its a software setup (not the calculations)
Your firmware calculates from the ignition pulse at Pin 13
But your firmware is set to start calculating if its sees the start off the pulse from 0V to 5V
In that case it sees the end off the incoming ignition pulse. (From this point calculated,your firmware is 19 degrees)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fsoftware%2520fout_zpshzukussk.jpg&hash=bc483fa98aee222853b08928c04cc13e4d38634b)
But this point is heavily changed by TPS, T2333,In higher rpms its bends massively, etc, ect.
You need to change the software, so its sees the ignition pulse (start point) when pulled from 5V to 0V
When the ignition pulse is going to 0V that is the start point for calculations
Hope you understand what I mean, its already difficult explaining it in Dutch
Perhaps the picture helps (is at 90Hz)
Cheers
No surfing, waves were crap :(
Does the picture is my last back lobe firmware ?
From the picture :
-> 3MA CDI ignition point is falling edge 5V -> 0V
-> at this RPM then 3MA advance is greater than 19° (Tdelay is smaller than 19° one)
Yes its the new firmware :) (Back lobe)
Can you pragram your firmware so the ignition pulse is from 5v to 0v
Mechenical angular back to 36,5
Quote-> 3MA CDI ignition point is falling edge 5V -> 0V
Yes.
Quote-> at this RPM then 3MA advance is greater than 19° (Tdelay is smaller than 19° one)
Yes, 90Hz is about 2700rpm (the 0 curve) should be close to 28degrees
Hello Olivier,
I have tested the two last send firmware's
You can see the difference between 36,5 and 56,5
Here two shots all taken with 62Hz
36,5 mechanical angular
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fklklklklklk_zpswdy6ydvt.jpg&hash=10ddde6f0705e6544ca0ddae98c441d5e07f80b5)
56,5 mechanical angular
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fnmnmmnmnmn_zpsvd8k6q5w.jpg&hash=ffef38f6f7037241c003aa865ab7e5aa5e3aea56)
But both firmware's still fires at the wrong pulse
From what I can measure the firmware start calculating from the incoming ignition pulse when 0V goes to 5V
And it needs to calculate using the point from 5V to 0V
Will this be possible to program?
Yes we could choose interruption on rising or falling edges.
I'll do some testing tomorrow on my bench.
Front lobe an back lobe firmware should give different results :(
QuoteYes we could choose interruption on rising or falling edges.
Sounds like Sparkle off hope here :)
From 5V to 0V should be falling edge.
QuoteI'll do some testing tomorrow on my bench.
That would be great.
Think that we will make a big jump if we can program the icp-12 to fire at the correct pulse point
QuoteFront lobe an back lobe firmware should give different results :(
It does :)
Look at the distance off the blue icp-12 pulse compared with the green oem pulse on the 36,5 and on the 56,5
its massive
Olivier,
Good news, You have done it :)
We found the problem and fixed it.
It is a steady 19 degrees in the whole rpm range. SUPER
Setup:
Top: iCP-12 (New firmware)
Middle: Oem outgoing ignition point
Below: Oem incoming ignition point
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fgoed1_zpsueekn7ih.jpg&hash=d05028b6d032c785ab6eb91717226152685c3a8a)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fgoed2_zpsebe9xaqn.jpg&hash=9bf1e9e9d1c33e25a3c7e16fdb64165571f41cec)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fgoed3_zps6d1nfzzv.jpg&hash=296468ae83039bc15b39872e1f4415790524b342)
If possible, like to test the 0 Curve with the new settings.
Think it will be spot on.
Great work Olivier 8)
Hi Louis,
Which firmware is fine RE or FE ?
I'll email you tomorrow the 0-1/8 throttle firmware.
I don't like when the machine wants to win ;D
QuoteWhich firmware is fine RE or FE ?
The FE (Falling edge) firmware
I'll see the 0-1/8 curve coming :)
Think we are getting close on this one
I'll email the firmware in few minutes...
I could also increase the length of the ignition signal to be close to the OEM length.
Email sent :D
Hello Olivier,
Tested it, but its not good.
It moves slowly from Left to right and at 91/92Hz it jumps to the same curve as oem
Must be a software problem, off something like that.
Just some quick shots to show the problem
(its almost the same problem)
Software starts at 61/62 Hz
Icp-12 pulse is to soon
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fjhkjkjh_zpsex48on0j.png&hash=f8b25683331cf5c258a55b489174c01cf1b6f0a6)
At about 72Hz oem and icp-12 are the same.
Because it slowly moves to the right it will have a point that is the same
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Flkjlkjlkjlkj_zpsfchtgebg.png&hash=f2cbdc409a9fda9cf069f9add1511f55d1649036)
Around 80Hz its at his max unwanted point
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fgfhfhgfhg_zpszyvmg7cb.png&hash=244520914bc6fd9d5a2bde694359a684dc25f3e9)
And when you hit 91/92Hz it jumps into its place.
And is exactly the same as the oem cuve
(perhaps a slightly different at some points bat that could be something to do wit the curve settings steps)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fmnbnbcbvcn_zpslbaqgmyk.png&hash=01060b91b56faa88958ddb268731497e7dffc0b0)
Could it be a software problem?
As when the iCP-12 starts working (61Hz) it should be 19degrees and that is not the case
But it is proven that it can do that with the 19degrees flat curve
Can you calculate the delay at 61Hz for the OEM ?
Need to know the real advance for OEM at 60*61/2 = 1830rpm.
On this screen capture.
Quote from: Louis on April 05, 2016, 10:52:05 PM
Software starts at 61/62 Hz
Icp-12 pulse is to soon
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fjhkjkjh_zpsex48on0j.png&hash=f8b25683331cf5c258a55b489174c01cf1b6f0a6)
Its to late to jump back to my workshop and start all stuff up.
Think it has the same delay as a previous firmware
Will measure it tomorrow, but think its the same
Like this:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F65%2520icp_zpsmddjstee.jpg&hash=7f699f770f0bd5aebe69c011afacd66c41009e20)
65Hz icp12 delay 915us = 25,19 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F72%2520ge_zpse9onondw.jpg&hash=17eddd28f07dfc6f8b48a45f902b37af1ac8daaa)
72Hz icp12 and oem are the same 1260us = 19,67 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F75%2520icp_zpss4kmaw1o.jpg&hash=117212079b7f67e4939d9c7df4396abfe2effa60)
75Hz icp12 delay 2360us = 4,02 degrees
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F85%2520icp_zpsae59brk7.jpg&hash=9191ece27654c5a92667671e9ed5d1a86c5eae41)
85Hz icp12 delay 2100us = 3,65 degrees
OK
You have a firmware in your mail.
I remove the 1800rpm condition to see if any link with this.
Tested the firmware Olivier, but its the same.
Heavily changing in the low revs.
To make sure it is not the CDI i have used my functiegenerator to great a incoming ignition pulse connected only on the icp12
And Measured the outgoing signal
There i have the same shifting as seen on the CDI ???
So it must be a software problem
Think i noticed.
From 2Hz till 22Hz the firmware is a strange long pulse
From 23 it changes to a short pulse
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F16hz_zpswwu6nm5a.png&hash=410575a8831d18f386e1455b0b58e1836d458ad2)
From 27Hz till 31Hz it is changing heavily
Here is 27Hz on a normal point
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F27hz_zpskh0dtgue.png&hash=8054e2e0e00c13af2f4d04ee0947ff6af80af01c)
Here is 28Hz shifted
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F28hz_zps2x0ju3ea.png&hash=c25f76cd496bdab235df099af33e647365c07e89)
Here is 29Hz shifted
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F29hz_zpsoivj3tz8.png&hash=447db69f3c0173aa43a376c66a78d5af1f699dba)
From 39Hz till 45Hz it is also changing heavily
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2F45Hz_zpswslnwm4l.png&hash=cab0356b6a12613e4efeed8cd85ef2bcd9c2cd01)
Could it be that your pulse generator has a software mistake in it, so it is copied to the firmware?
I can't see what is going wrong
When I look to your firmware, it has some strange short rules in them.
Could be nothing, ore suppose to be there
Just noticed them
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fraarstuk1_zps9taw64ar.jpg&hash=b9d34663cf86f74b37c3b0b150aaf4fc2f9add6d)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2Fraarstuk_zpsi0tqwgbl.jpg&hash=33385315f953dc529a137cdf26934b9210067bed)
I'll do some testing over the weekend.
I'll report here.
To help Louis and myself....
A piece of software... the AdvanceTestor ;D
Attention by now the decimal point is a coma !!!
Inputs are :
- frequency in Hz
- delay from edge to edge in ms
Test at 3000rpm
Hello Olivier,
Your new tool works great 8), that saves me allot off time calculating it back to degrees.
Tested the software with the function generator.
Created a incoming ignition pulse and measured the delay.
directly on the icp-12 no interference from the cdi
Can you great a shorter incoming pulse on your setup. (it looks a bid long)
Perhaps it does something to the icp-12
Just a guess
Here you have mine 100 hz, way its different then yours ?:-|
Hi Louis,
I don't understand what is happening on your setup.
I'll do some testing tomorrow.
Olivier.
Quote from: Louis on April 08, 2016, 09:28:57 PM
Your new tool works great 8), that saves me allot off time calculating it back to degrees.
Tested the software with the function generator.
Created a incoming ignition pulse and measured the delay.
directly on the icp-12 no interference from the cdi
I welcome you.
The programmable ignition engine works?
I made ignition curve (See picture=PIC16f683-4Mhz, MSD= 3 spark<917rpm , 2 spark <2500rpm, 1 spark >2500rpm). ;)
What is your opinion?
Watch my video, ignition advance operation. :)
Link:https://youtu.be/wBt48RQyMMU (https://youtu.be/wBt48RQyMMU)
Thank you in advance for your answer.
Regards nyemi
Hello Nyemi,
QuoteThe programmable ignition engine works?
Yes it works (on the test bench)
But we only have small problem in the lower rpm.
There is a difference in my setup and Olivier's setup, it would be nice if these setup's have the same outcome.
I'm not a software writer, can only measure. So need to wait on new software that I can test.
Olivier is also a busy man he will pick it up when he has more time.
QuoteI made ignition curve (See picture=PIC16f683-4Mhz, MSD= 3 spark<917rpm , 2 spark <2500rpm, 1 spark >2500rpm). ;)
What is your opinion?
I see it, :)
Well I'm not a expert on this, just a hobby guy.
Your curve would work, but don't think it will bring more power to a stock setup.
It might give a bid more in the mid rpm range.
Look here: http://www.tzr3ma.com/tps--testing-.html
Here I test the TPS on a stock engine (using the stored curves in a 3MA CDI)
You see that even with the 0 Curve it wont bring your more (in a stock configuration)
The 0 Curve is bringing a bid more in the mid section
QuoteWatch my video, ignition advance operation.
I see it, seems to work good nice job.
Sadly I'm not a software writer, perhaps you and Olivier could change ideas about different setups?
You could drop him a PM
Are you designing your programmable ignition for a 3MA?
Louis
I've modified my arduino pickup signal setup so the trigger signal is 17° length so duration will decrease will rising rpm.
I've done a little windows software programing so I can upload curve in the eeprom of the iCP12 without having to flash the firmware.
I'll do some testing to see if the advance is correct for all the rpm.
Quite difficult to compare my result with Louis ones.
I still don't see why your iCP12 alone does not give the same result as mine.
Hello Olivier,
QuoteI've modified my arduino pickup signal setup so the trigger signal is 17° length so duration will decrease will rising rpm.
Ok that sounds great, so its more like on a running engine now. :)
QuoteI've done a little windows software programing so I can upload curve in the eeprom of the iCP12 without having to flash the firmware.
That sounds even better 8)
In the end (when we have it all working), the final program will be doing all that by it self.
Just draw a curve and update?
QuoteQuite difficult to compare my result with Louis ones.
I still don't see why your iCP12 alone does not give the same result as mine.
I don't know what it is Olivier.
Spend hours on finding the problem, checked en rechecked but can't find it
Have ordered two new iCP-12's, want to use them without interfering from the CDI
New setup will be:
-External 5V power
-Input will be a digital input from the pulse generator
-output/input measured with the scope
So hopefully I will have the same results as you.
Also have created a new pulse generator only for testing if the ''generated pulse'' from me
starting halfway the CDI is cousins problems
Now I have the exact pulse as oem when I don't use a spinning (test engine)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz376%2Ftzr250-3ma%2FTzr125%2520tester_zpsqfthsrdu.jpg&hash=55002e006aef2d7c9f96bf48d567eb0462af6921)
Will let you know
I'll post pictures of my setup and electrical scheme too.
Hi Louis
QuoteBut we only have small problem in the lower rpm.
My code: The minimum RPM and the delay time is set.
I value code:360rpm (6 Hz) 5,1mS (delay=11°) during this rpm, there is no spark!
(Goto Label :no spark--Than the maximum rpm ;))
QuoteThe 0 Curve is bringing a bid more in the mid section
Thanks.
Such pre-written factory ignition delay curve, I was looking for.
I want to apply to other 2T engines.
QuoteI see it, seems to work good nice job.
Sadly I'm not a software writer, perhaps you and Olivier could change ideas about different setups?
You could drop him a PM
Are you designing your programmable ignition for a 3MA?
I can not help. Because I do not know C -Language and high-performance processors.
I just know asm language :).
With all due respect Oliver.
The task is very difficult, so I wish him every success.
Regards nyemi
QuoteThanks.
Such pre-written factory ignition delay curve, I was looking for.
I want to apply to other 2T engines.
Be careful with using high advange ignition curve's on different engine's
Ignition curve's must be set correct for the setup
that engine has.
If set wrong :o
I'll PM you
Made a new setup:
Now I'm using Two incoming signals. (produced from a two channel pulse generator)
-one for the 3MA CDI (directly on the ic)
-one for the iCP-12
With the use off the oscilloscope can monitor both units.
They work completely on there own, having no interfering signals from each other. (iCP-12 is only using the 5V circuit from the CDI)
But they receive exactly the same incoming signal
Still having the same problem
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tzr3ma.com%2Fimages%2Fdubbel-controle-90hz.jpg&hash=1d0f1e373581c0ef8373ca8e89a4a5903fbb5e1e)
Some more info:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/solving-the-problem.html
Hi everyone.
Very stopped on the topic. :)
I prepare ignition timing control program pic12f683.
I do not know, TZR 125 pickup coil BTDC position.
I let one degrees, after pulse input. ???
It's a simple program, but atoms stable. :P
The program features:
12f683 internal clock frequency of use 8MHz, RPM processing time:25uS.
Minimum -maximum RPM control (12500rpm above < no spark< below 366rpm)
366rpm-between-920rpm, three sparks, MSD application (easy start).
Changing tables ignition delay,(4table) during operation. 3 pin analog input voltage levels.
The basic ignition delay is<1835RPM(11°).The tables ignition delay,>1835RPM starts.
The SCR output: 500uS long square wave. MSD applications: SCR between signals, 1000uS break.
The minimum input time: 10uS long, square wave(Attached hex: falling edge).
Please test. Thanks in advance .
If the Hex program parameters is not correct, please indicate.
I changed: maximum-minimum RPM. The Hall input is rising or falling edge, or Complete sets of ignition delay table.
Regards nyemi
Hi,
The way you write your message does not make it easy to understand!!!
So answering is difficult :(
Quote from: nyemi on July 29, 2016, 08:03:34 AM
I do not know, TZR 125 pickup coil BTDC position.
To know the pickup angle, you need to do this experiment :
- a flat curve (for example at 19° advance)
- set an angle (or delay) in your CDI firmware (for example 36° pickup position - this is for the TZR250 1KT or 2XT)
- run the engine at idle and check with a timing light what is the real advance
If timing light reads 15° then your pickup angle is 40° not 36°.
With this you don't care about rising or falling edge from the pickup.
Quote from: nyemi on July 29, 2016, 08:03:34 AM
366rpm-between-920rpm, three sparks, MSD application (easy start).
I don't understand the 3 sparks !!! Condenser will not get charged to deliver 3 sparks in one revolution.
Olivier.
Hi Olivier
QuoteThe way you write your message does not make it easy to understand!!!
So answering is difficult :(
I have bad speak English. Sorry.
My friend write software simulation experience:
"Hello, Nyemi!
I'm tested the firmware in Proteus. Behaves as expected: 0 ... 5 Hz(0...300 rpm) - no spark, then 6 ... 15 Hz(360...900 rpm) - 3 spark and then higher, than 16 Hz(960 rpm), only one spark till to 200 Hz(12000 rpm) and higher, than 210 Hz(12600 rpm) is no spark.
I tried to change the voltage on the 3rd pin 12F683 and curves clearly switched just in the specified voltage range, because noticeable change in the pulse position of the output relative to the input"QuoteTo know the pickup angle, you need to do this experiment :
- a flat curve (for example at 19° advance)
- set an angle (or delay) in your CDI firmware (for example 36° pickup position - this is for the TZR250 1KT or 2XT)
- run the engine at idle and check with a timing light what is the real advance
If timing light reads 15° then your pickup angle is 40° not 36°.
I am curious about the mechanical situation.
I can handle the corrections program.
It would help me to scale images.(TZR125 :alternatore_pickup coil-control arc)
Thanks in advance.
QuoteWith this you don't care about rising or falling edge from the pickup.
The microcontrollers transducer processing circuit. Yes.
Quote
I don't understand the 3 sparks !!! Condenser will not get charged to deliver 3 sparks in one revolution.
The CDI Ignition: Spark time low.
It should therefore apply the concept MSD.
Practice has proved that low rpm, created functionate Multi Spark Discharge(DC-CDI!).
The point is: the time needed capacitor, charge-new (1,2-1,3mS).
Regards nyemi
Hi nyemi
"I have bad speak English. Sorry."
=> It is not an English problem but put some spaces in your writing to help us to read and reply.
"The microcontrollers transducer processing circuit. Yes."
=> I know but you could chose rising or falling in your program and then adjust in your program the mechanical angle with the timing light. just check if length of pickup signal is not related to rpm (should be!!!).
"It should therefore apply the concept MSD."
=> I'll check this concept.
Off topic- here is the inside of 3xv cdi, does it use a similar IC?
Off topic yes and no ....
I think 3XC CDI is not a real CDI but a TCI as it needs a battery to operate correctly.
No a 3XV expert.
http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm (http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm)
A programmable IC can be replaced by another one.
If you monitor the signals at each pins of the IC you'll find what they do.
As there is 2 pickups and 2 HT coils the IC includes 2 separate ignition modules.
You may find :
- 1 Speed restriction signal (input)
- 1 TPS signal (input)
- 2 Powerjets (output)
- 2 ignition signals (input)
- 2 coil signals (output)
- 2 YPVS signal (output)
I've to check if my ICP12 IC could cope with these extra inputs and could drive 2 separate ignition systems.
Olivier.
The later CDI also supports the oil solenoids, just to complicate matters....
Oil solenoid is not a problem but it add an output.
The most difficult think is the monitor the signals.
The best solution is to setup a test bench as done Louis for the 3MA or 41juergen to read the CDI and YPVS curves.
The speed input pin could be setup for oil solenoid output.
If a 3XV owner is able to setup a bench and get the signal's specification I could check if my ICP12 setup and firmware could be adapted to 3XV CDI.