i bought a bike last year from a lad in cape town,
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i asked he deliver it to graham cokers workshop and i'll pay him if graham says it is pretty sound. so i had it off him for R15000. i immediately comissioned graham to make it TZ like as a track bike, to look into engine design and overheating issues on RHS and flooding on low down (not that this is a major issue on a track bike but wanted a little progress here anyway). he used modern software and the way i understand it because, i have had images off him for my 3XV
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is that he creates a digital model of the engine and runs it overnight to destruction on his PC, he then gets all the hotspots and changes the model until it improves by re-running. part of the requirements is this damn expensive headgasket which is getting more expensive and lesser in numbers, i wanted o-rings fitted.
a lot of machining is involved and jigs etc.
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casings are finished, cylinders to and pipes are nearly there.
more news as i go
ps, it is nearly a year now but don't tell anyone
How do the water jackets seal ? Gasket maker etc ?
Quote from: Neal on September 03, 2012, 08:02:02 PM
How do the water jackets seal ? Gasket maker etc ?
apparently neal. i would like to know more as i have seen it done this way before.
if anyone can testify to using this method please boost my confidence.
Iam thinking of this mod too because gaskets are expensive (especially when you setup your bike and i might need a lot of these
It should although have 2 orings ,one for the chamber and one for the water , in your case you should use some kind of gasket sealant to prevent water come out of the head
Here is an ebay ad with a photo ,I think i will send it there as soon as yamaha lets me raise some money (expensive oem stuff)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=380459407107&nma=true&rt=nc&si=KvSSXpF4JUhBKRjAOPMFclR3lnk%253D&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Threebond Yamaha gasket maker. I managed to speak to graham yesterday. I've ordered a tube.
That machining looks good. There is not much room on the 3ma to get around the studs so I agreed to go this route.
My engine is assembled and bolted back in the bike. Finishing the exhausts is next.
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The cylinders look sweet did you have them sandblasted ?
Progress at last , you must be happy !
Umm - you looking for a test rider for that baby ?
Quote from: Paul on September 05, 2012, 09:23:01 AM
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Do both cylinders have the same crank rotation on 3MA?
180 deg
The easiest way to clean them is with blasting soda , it does not damage anything and is easy to clean off .
Quote from: Paul on September 04, 2012, 05:55:04 AM
Quote from: Neal on September 03, 2012, 08:02:02 PM
How do the water jackets seal ? Gasket maker etc ?
apparently neal. i would like to know more as i have seen it done this way before.
if anyone can testify to using this method please boost my confidence.
Go for it.
I have been using that setup (O-ring combined with sealant) for years, without any problems.
As long as the machining of the groove and ring type choice is done correctly, it is in my experience a great mod.
Cheers casual fan and welcome back!!
Hello Paul,
I have studied your 3ma head pictures and it kept me thinking :-[
What I see is that Graham have made the squish equal to each other (with is a good thing as oem they have slightly different readings between L en R)
He has worked the squish band width to (it looks a bit wider then stock now) and have set the squish on a (estimated) 0,8 a 0,9mm??
But what I now is that a stock 3ma head has already a tight head volume around 10,5cc.
If you just skim the head and make the squish correct ,you will be way, way down the 10cc.
I see this du the marks on the combustion shape (where he have tighten the head on to the milling machine) this indicates to me that he perhaps not have opened the bowl.
Also the aria where the thermostat sits is equal to the rest off the head, with indicates that there probably is takeoff quit a bid
This could give you troubles with setting up the ignition.
(like the 3xv with the changed heads )
Can you ask him if he has measured the head volume?
The O-ring mod looks good, and with use off sealent it wont leak. ;)
Hi Louis
He has re machined the heads, his opinion is their design is susceptible to detonation.
He has redesigned the whole motor by measuring and applying filler or machining. New porting etc.
He is also doing me race fuel and pump gas heads. The one head was warped and had bad detonation damage, that is why he machined it right down.
He measured the heads on the engine by sealing piston edge, then he uses Perspex I understand as its quicker.
I am afraid we'll have to wait and I'm pretty excited. I'll set this one up on the Dyno. Hope I don't battle like the 3xv, I really had a rough time with that bike but it is a whopper now and I still have new heads to try.
What squish band is good Louis ? Or what percentage do you aim for ?
cheers
Hi Paul;
How much is he charging you per head if I may ask.
Edd
I told him to keep the tools which he is, as I suspect a few more lads will do the same given the price and inconvenience of head gaskets. I ain't seen his bill yet that'll come in 2 weeks or so.
watch this space...
Hello Neal,
Well I may have a another aproge than a super tuner, but my thoughts goes out that we still are working one a stock/mass production street bike's, witch is designed differently than a race bike.
When having that in mind, a stock 3ma squish width is not that bad.
A 3ma head has a squish width between 46 and 48%
(7,5 a 8mm wide on a 56mm bore)
On average (It depends on compression rate and rpm etc etc) a,
-race/performance engine has a squish band width somewhere between 35 and 48%
-cross and enduro has them around 50 till 60%
So a 3ma squish band width is somewhere at the end of a (race) engine.
This in combination with the cylinder timing and rpm range (where a 3ma engine works), I personally think the 46% is not that bad.
But if you are aiming on a highly tuned 3ma I think around 38 a 40% will be good start.
When my hybrid bike is ready, I'll be building a new bike and that one will have to do it. 8)
So head shape will be newly designed to get the Max out off it ;D
Hello Paul,
Well if that is the case I have sad nothing
I was just under the impression that only the squish has been changed from looking at your picture's (from the small damage in the combustion bole)
Perhaps I'm just staring to much at your pictures ;D.
I'll be very interested how the engine performance, Ill certainly watch this space ;)
I know what you saw, when I get the heads back I'll inspect closer. I'm also getting all measurements and volumes. I have every confidence it has been done absolutely 100% properly.
Any progress Paul?
after sending a virtual tears email, he is working on it now and rekons friday it's ready for shipping
Holding thumbs for you !
I know a oke that will test ride it for you to make sure it goes well ;D
Quote from: Neal on October 18, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
Holding thumbs for you !
I know a oke that will test ride it for you to make sure it goes well ;D
Hehehe
Let's see if he ships today.
well what do you know, we're nearly ready
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looking good
couple more pics, excitement mounting now
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Looking good, when is delivery expected?
though it was long to do the bike, it's 6 days now, waiting for invoice!!! friday, then monday, now later today.
Hi Paul,
Those pipes do look good, are they made fore stock timing? (3ma00 cylinders)
Ore are they made fore your ported cylinders?
Hi Louis
Thanks. ;D Cylinders are ported. A complete redesign of the 3ma engine top to bottom, meant to eliminate hot spots and work better. But the bike is now designed for top end. For track. GP like specs.
Avgas heads.
Haven't seen the bill yet. Quietly sh1tting myself here as it looks great and that normally means it'll hurt.
right
i eventually got the bike from cape town
i stripped it all afternoon
i got a problem, i need bigger carb inlet rubbers, will post a wanted ad.
i will take my time with this one, new TZ has changed everything so no pressure
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a quick peek at inlet work
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most of this will get sold.
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Hi Paul,
What are the plans for the chassis, leaf it relative stock? Or do you have wild plans for it.
(example, USD forks, wider rims, tz fairing, etc)
Good to see you have here at your home.
She will be more relieved sitting between all the twostrokes 8)
Hi Louis
Plans are TZ race fairing
I have the 3XV front forks ready
A FZR400RR rear wheel. I can't find one here in SA, can you help?
Else I am chopping away here
Ja. Happy to have her here now.
consider the wheels from TZ's - working well on our 3MA-3.... if you need pichtures let me know
Yes please. And tell me which year Tz it's from. Also a pic from the side so I can see caliper mounts. Shot.
only for the record..
your rear sving arm are 3MA-1 ours are 3MA-3/5 BUT the god news is that in terms of wheels fitting its the same, only the flex are different..
a little peek up the exhaust
it is smooth
ill whip the head off next
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looks sweet in there
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this is the problem with making a dual cable setup
i need the insides that take a cable and spring
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any ideas or help?
Can you not just use the slide from a normal TM carb Paul? Like the ones on your 3xv. They will fit.
Lots of motorcross 125's use TM carbs so you might be able to find some second hand ones that way. Finding a pair with the same cut out number might be tricky though.
Cheers,
Dan
Quote from: maccas on November 29, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
Can you not just use the slide from a normal TM carb Paul? Like the ones on your 3xv. They will fit.
Lots of motorcross 125's use TM carbs so you might be able to find some second hand ones that way. Finding a pair with the same cut out number might be tricky though.
Cheers,
Dan
ja, i could kick myself, i sold you my last set and i bet those slides had the cable adapter inside! maybe not though, might have been moulded in.
i'll take a drive to derick grahams house just over the hill and see if i can pry some out his hands. ;D
The TM carbs you sold me paul are 28's and the slides are completely different.
You want a slide from a TM32/34/35/36/38. TZ carbs will be the same too. You are correct, the cable holder is moulded in on these carbs.
Something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lambretta-Mikuni-TM-tmx-35mm-Carb-Ts1-Rb-/150955030909?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item23259ef97d
Dan
well i'm back, after digging in a box of old carbs from the 80's i got these bits.
a little modification and i am on track
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Sweet!
Dan
what was i panicing for this morning?? ???
a pit of drilling and filing and i got me cable modified carbs
i have ordered a 4DP throttle and cables, it looks to work well, might do the road bike the same, infact, i knew i would, thats why i put my spare cable up for sale yesterday, both bikes will be premix and dual cable.
carbs are in getting machined down to 41mm OD so i can pop them on existing mainfolds, G. Coker had modified them and i dont think i will get rubbers for these sugo carbs.
Rubbers now fit 34mm carbs
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Machined down to 41mm
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Carb heating closed
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Oops sorry that is lunch
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_chow ;D
That's a great idea with the soup in the bread loaf! Brilliant! I'm going to try that!
Dan
That my friend is called a "Bunny Chow"!
just checking you guys are looking at my posts. hahaha
it is curry in there, a Durban thing. delicious. that was a beans bunny, farts come later....
made up some plugs, epoxy'd them in nice and tight
installed slide and works nicely
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going away for a few days to cape vidal, maybe get eaten by a hippo (lucky hippo), more work next week. have a good weekend chaps.
its happening so fast now, said i would take my time.
pipes arrived today
a thing of beauty, it took a long time but its surely worth it
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Curry!!!! Even better!!!
The pipes look awesome!
Dan
was the cut out on the slide necessary :(
Pipes are looking very nice .
Don't follow through if you drop one !
Hi Paul;
Pipes looks nice I like. Will read the thread in detail tomorrow some interesting mods have a few questions. Natal curry is dangerous basically just as volatile as glisereen, falls right through you and the chair and the concrete. ;D
Edd
Hey Paul,
Pipes are looking great. You are flying with your 3ma project.
Think you will be ready after a couple off days, if you hold the speed you are going now ;D
Nice carb mod.
I've been warned by a member via email that I risk seizing it at lower RPM below 5000. With slides cut like that.
I have another set of slides but springs I don't.
Looking at it now I think that member is correct as it looks like it will suck more air at lower revs ? The air will short cut through that cut out 1ith the slide dropped down / shutt off ? Just thinking
Hove to make springs to the messaure you need..
http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/gunnarsorensen/30857393 (http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/gunnarsorensen/30857393)
material are piano wire in the dia. you consider usefull...
If you need advice Mr.Gunnar Sorensen are alwayes kind enough to reply to your emails.
Quote from: Need4speed on December 03, 2012, 06:56:09 PM
Hove to make springs to the messaure you need..
http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/gunnarsorensen/30857393 (http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/gunnarsorensen/30857393)
material are piano wire in the dia. you consider usefull...
If you need advice Mr.Gunnar Sorensen are alwayes kind enough to reply to your emails.
cheers mate
that is really helpful ;D
i'm going to sort it out this week
i have swapped the slides with ones that dont have a cut in the back
i want to put it out there though that a popular choice of carb for the big manufactures is the TM series and their slides are like this
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi172.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw26%2Fndwedwe%2FUntitled.jpg&hash=a4727cc0488e97bee47a5254d835414ae9e1b9d0)
for me this opens up a debate because the slides let no air in when shut and must suck through this slot??
there was a change of plan
i combined the track bikes engine with the road bike i am so happy with
i dont have the sugo carbs on yet as im waiting for cables but i started it with the spare carbs i have
i am really chuffed to hear it fire up, i have bypassed the 3ma tap and am running the bike purely on reserve
so i am getting closer, enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBYRNXZ1w_M
Hey Paul,
We can shake hands, I'm often Changing from the original plan :D.
That's a crispy 3MA sounds, really nice. Idles and revving good to 8)
So you give your track engine a go in the road going chassis.
This could be handy to get a good base setup.
Will you leaf it like that, or when you have the track chassis ready you swap it back?
Cheers.
Hi louis
ja, half the fun is taking your time and seeing how many times you change your plan ;D
it is a good idea to swap to tune the engine in your road bike, but not this time. i was going to sell the track frame with road engine cheap to get it out my garage, but it worried me as the road engine is gooooooood. so i sold the rolling chassis to a cafe bike enthusiast! i bring the engine and carbs home.
excellent!
i fitted 3YL throttle and cables, split the carbs (sugo's i won off yahoo.jp) and started it last night, dunno but it sounds more awake, they are 34mm
after some discussion with louis by email, thanks bud, i have aborted the solid/blank emulsion tube mod, the bike wont go, right down to 200 mains and it splutters, and thats with no airboxes, so not going to work IMO
anyhow, after another 6 runs with 1.2mm FAJ and i'm crackling now
pulled it to 9000 and its strong, took it to 10000 and it wants to go, but not yet, she must wait
350/360 mains, Q8 needle jet, 30 pilot, 1.2 FAJ, 1&1/4 airscrew, 34mm 3MA2 20 carbs, slide modded opening ramp by 2mm (we're rough as in SA) needle 6N4-63 middle clip
this is still in development and mains might go larger
Hey Paul,
Sounds you are going in the right direction ;).
Always difficult to lower the throttle when she wants to go, but its a wise dissension.
Let us know how she go's
Cheers
Quote from: Louis on February 09, 2013, 03:19:48 PM
Always difficult to lower the throttle when she wants to go, but its a wise dissension.
you're right there
i am also running the orings on the heads with no restriction in the flow, so i am just building heat slowly.
so far okay, it goes nice, just had another ride
got a funny spot just on 1/4 i cant tell if its lean or rich, will screw in airscrew half a turn and see if its better or worse
been a bit slack with this bike, too much work and TZ
heavilly motivated after seeing edds beauty tearing around RSR
so i got back into the carb thats when i noticed a bit of dirt sitting comfortably on the bell inlet, like the dirt thought it belonged there.
i aint having that, open carbs with 3ma is not really advisable.
so, with my heavilly equipped workshop i reached in for the hacksaw, this is what i did, see pics
i have a nice colour on plugs on topend, she pulls quite wickedly and easilly to the 13000 mark
got some issues further down when rolling it on, typical 3MA, i cant tell if its rich or lean. it either feels like no fuel or it will feel like it is bogging, too rich.
That should help keep the grit out !
Quote from: Neal on March 01, 2013, 03:44:06 PM
That should help keep the grit out !
yes and to be honest there is no noticible difference, just like when i put 'em on the MC21
right
with these "magic" airboxes my initial set-up was
needles 6N4-63 middle clip
360L/370R
Pwr jet 90
PJ 30
FAJ 1.2
Q8
so they say, one thing at a time, i sat and thought about the bikes behaviour
and that it is off the bottom and through the mid, now the powerjet effects from 1/4 gradually to 3/4 where it is full bull and mains tapers from 1/2 to 3/4 then its full bull (see pic), i did the following
needles 6N4-63 middle clip
370L/380R
Pwr jet 70
PJ 25
FAJ 1.2
Q6
and i have to say it is 100% better
i effectively cleaned up bottom to just over half and used the power jet to help here. it is fun when it works!!! ;D
Airboxes look good paul. nice work.
Hey Paul,
Looking good 8), I see that you go from Q8 to Q6 do you want to try the Q4's from the 3ma3 to?
Did you feel any (power) change going from open carbs to airbox?
Hi Louis
I've got Q4's which I'll have to use up country when I go track riding.
Regards airbox. I think there could well be a difference between what I'm using and open carbs. What it is I don't know as I only got it running this well with the magic airbox and I ain't taking it off. There are too many little stones and sand particles that make their way inside the front fairing cavity. Even with tea strainers fitted I didn't like it.
who made the filters for you paul?
Quote from: zoomzoom on March 03, 2013, 10:50:28 PM
who made the filters for you paul?
They're UNI pod filters off eBay in the US of A.
They have a big wire spring in them to stop them collapsing. Very well made.
so decided to do some more testing and jetting to see if i can iron out a hesitation when after coasting and cracking the throttle it feels like fuel starvation, yet if i roll it back on it comes on the pipe very strong
knowing these bikes and how 1 change effects everything else, i was hoping for a bit more luck
thing is i think i am rich on top and lean down bottom.
so i dropped the mains 2 sizes 360/370 and it made the bottom worse, proving my theory i hope. i have run out of time today sadly.
but, i can report, the hit up top is insane, even compared to the ex-SA championship Trevor Crookes bike i owned back in the day.
the front wheel lifted whilst pullin second gear. i have never had that before, ever!
thanks paul.
ja ZZ
its these, just measure your carb to get right size http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uni-Pod-Filter-Kit-Chrome-PK-92-NIP-/200902463237?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec6b84f05&vxp=mtr
ive seen them om ebay paul, wasnt sure if they were UNI or not. thanks.
Hi Paul;
I had a look at the thread and did some thinking, the one thing you did that will cause the bike to over fuel is the modification to the carb slides. I have a set of slides for the rz 500 that was modified to increase fuel delivery at low throttle position. I also struggled big time with setting up the bike got new slides and she was fine. The mains also is very big the standard bike runs 210 mains on those 34mm carbs. Remember the needle jet will only allow so much fuel into the carbs as its smallest diameter, so if the main jets are to big you will not feel any changes their. I may be wrong but that is just my logic I am aware that flow rate also influences this. I theory we are moving more air and we need to increase fuel to assist in proper combustion with your mods. So by fitting the filters you are reducing air quantity getting the mix better that tells me you are running rich in all areas?(only a theory)
Another theory if you open her up to 10 000 rpm 3rd gear the needle jet can not cope with fuel supply and the pressure diffrence across the carbs will then suck fuel through the power jets giving you what you need at high rpm. Once you shut down the air stops but the fuel doesnt from the power jets and carb slide modification, so when you want to get on with it she is too rich asking for 1/8 to 1/4 throttle to get going again.
Edd
hi edd
thanks for taking the time
i have since sorted it, you, like louis and myself were all thinking too rich and thats what it felt like.
well it turned out it was lean, but then again like in your last paragraph, it all depends on air suction
my carbs snap shut to, there is no idle, like the TZ
i have gone up a clip on the needle to richen it mid, Q8 needle jets and the 30 pilots do their thing lower down. it is really much better and tempting to bring it up but alas i am not finished, i need to do the wheel mod and a few other things, maybe see if i like RSR, hire a container and leave this bike there.
i need a partner for this to share the cost.
Louis's FZR400 rear wheel mod works, thanks louis. i now have a 17" rear wheel.
jetting, rode it today and it still has the shitty hessitation thing going on. dropped the mains to 240/250 from 260/270, it is still there.
it's pulling nicely on the straights when it doesnt hessitate otherwise its like this, come into a corner, tap off, break, keep the revs above 7000 by changing down, on the apex start to open the throttle and eeeeeeeeeeeee it doesnt want to go, then suddenly after regulating the throttle it comes to life and tears away.
when i had smaller pilot, lower needle i couldnt go up the hill without pulling the choke.
i am running Q8's, std 3ma-20 (6N4-63) needles 1 clip from being raised all the way up, 30 pilots, 130 FAJ, powerjet 70
come on guys, i'm missing something here, give me an idea or something to try.
What size are your needle valves (float valves) Paul? 2.8mm?
Try 3.5's. It might be that the float bowls can't fill up quick enough after a giving it the berries.
Part number is 3JD-14107-35 they are pricey mind. Approx 70gbp for a pair.
Other than that have you checked that the fuel tap flows adequate amount of fuel with the filler cap closed?
Could you try a larger needle jet?
Dan
needles are actually 6L4-63, i have 6L2-63 but thats going leaner
thanks dan, i have 3.5mm float seat apertures, flow is impressive, like victoria falls in february! thats with the filler closed. all good.
i dont have larger than Q8.
while i was checking all this i changed my float levels from 20 to 19 and inserted the larger 90 powerjets the carbs came with.
ill test it tomorrow, stick with me chaps
Quote from: Paul on April 29, 2013, 04:31:45 PM
Louis's FZR400 rear wheel mod works, thanks louis. i now have a 17" rear wheel.
jetting, rode it today and it still has the shitty hessitation thing going on. dropped the mains to 240/250 from 260/270, it is still there.
it's pulling nicely on the straights when it doesnt hessitate otherwise its like this, come into a corner, tap off, break, keep the revs above 7000 by changing down, on the apex start to open the throttle and eeeeeeeeeeeee it doesnt want to go, then suddenly after regulating the throttle it comes to life and tears away.
when i had smaller pilot, lower needle i couldnt go up the hill without pulling the choke.
i am running Q8's, std 3ma-20 (6N4-63) needles 1 clip from being raised all the way up, 30 pilots, 130 FAJ, powerjet 70
come on guys, i'm missing something here, give me an idea or something to try.
Paul, i know a good friend with a dyno that willing to help you sort it out... :o
Cheers bud. You still offer me your Dyno even after I've insulted your photography. Hahaha.
I just won't be able to squeeze it this time. I have a 6 hour drive to RSR.
I will take you up, I have a TZ that needs to be measured stock and with IGNITECH.
Quote from: Paul on April 30, 2013, 05:41:17 AM
Cheers bud. You still offer me your Dyno even after I've insulted your photography. Hahaha.
I just won't be able to squeeze it this time. I have a 6 hour drive to RSR.
I will take you up, I have a TZ that needs to be measured stock and with IGNITECH.
Paul it wasnt my photography, it was the phone. No offence taken.. :o
agreed Paul this time will be a bit busy but whenever your ready
QuoteLouis's FZR400 rear wheel mod works, thanks louis. I now have a 17" rear wheel
Great to hear that :), Sorry Paul I was the weekend off (a small trip to Germany to hold the girlfriend happy).
What tire did you use? I Have a 160/60-17 fitted.
Regarding your carb issue, its certainly a strange one.
Looking at your setup, you give it quit some fuel in the mid range.
Some thinks to over look:
-have you tried to run with fuel tap on the pri stand? (it leafs the vacuums part out)
-What plugs do you drive (have you changed plugs? Hotter/colder)
-How does the bike handle with the choke on (same behavior?)
-Does your airbox mod make the carbs vibrate? (because its all bolted on the carbs now, can't absorb vibration)
There cult be a possibility that the whole airbox mode, start to make your float bowls vibrate so it starts to make your petrol (in the bowls) into foam.
This is a extreme thought and pure theoretical :-[.
But you can use some tyreps to tighten it to the radiator bars. To give it more absorbing possibilities
Quote from: Louis on April 30, 2013, 09:05:37 PM
-Sorry Paul I was the weekend off (a small trip to Germany to hold the girlfriend happy). what does one do in germany?
-What tire did you use? I Have a 160/60-17 fitted. i fitted same
-Looking at your setup, you give it quit some fuel in the mid range. i know, coker said it would demand more fueling on the needle but this is just wierd
-have you tried to run with fuel tap on the pri stand? (it leafs the vacuums part out) i have fuel direct from tank to carbs, i have no side tap anymore fuel flow is strong
-What plugs do you drive (have you changed plugs? Hotter/colder) B10EGV was B9
-How does the bike handle with the choke on (same behavior?) that i must try, i will try tomorrow if i get a gap, thanks
-Does your airbox mod make the carbs vibrate? (because its all bolted on the carbs now, can't absorb vibration) i hear you but i think not as the pods rest tightly against the rad hose on one side and radiator overflow bottle on the other, its like it is under tension ever so slightly
-There cult be a possibility that the whole airbox mode, start to make your float bowls vibrate so it starts to make your petrol (in the bowls) into foam. i think to the airbox is rubber mounter to carbs, i honestly believe i need more time with it, must be too rich on top still and too lean in the middle, louis have you the correct Sudco part number for R0 (1 size up from Q8) needle jets?
Hi Paul,
You have the 34 mm carbs? If it is the case I will go down on fixed air jet 100. Use the 3ma3 needle that sorted 90 percent of my problems, I am running 32 mm carbs 120 air jet air screw 1.5 turns. Open air box needle clip 2 from top q4 needle jet 3ma3 needles 22.5 pilots pre-mix. When I ran the bike with oil pump had issues in the middle pre mix solved some of that. My power jet drilled 0.6mm. Main jets 290 I must say the zeel also solved a lot of the mid range issues.
Edd
hi edd
okay we'll talk more over the weekend
i have to give up now, i have to much to sort out today to leave tomorrow
i will try the airjet at 1mm
here is a video this morning
you can hear it a little when i first start catching up to the white truck, watch rev counter as i coast after accelerating you can hear it just before it starts to come to life again
then seconds 49-52 and 55-57 after i turned around, then its doing it for a long time, 3 seconds each nearly.
ideas:
34mm 3MA-20 carbs
airjet, as edd noted
carb slide, 0.5 std 3ma1
mains are 230/240
pilots 30
airscrew 1.0
needle 6L4-63 second from being raised completely
powerjet 90
float level 19mm
http://youtu.be/zvNygtghn4U
1.00 airjet tested today
Hesitation still present.
I'm going to retard timing around this zone 8500 upwards.
Only thing I can think off.
Why would it hesitate on reopen ing throttle? Come on lads. I'm losing the plot now.
I'm still thinking :-[.
Looking to the movie.
Would say that it could be electrical, if it was fuel starvation I doubt if the engine could react that fast (to get the fuel bowls back on level)
Is it possible to put back the original ignition easy? (just for testing of course)
Sounded like it was running out of fuel to me.
Is this running with the sugo carbs ? Does the bike idle ?
Lean needle?
I'll investigate
They were sold to me as sugo, Neal you saw the advert.they are marked 3MA-20
No bike does not idle.
Did some work
Raised the needle, it is all the way up.
Made the top of the carbs seal better where TZ cable now goes in
Running a 1.0mm airjet now
Made the carbs idle now
Balanced them again
Retarded timing where it occurs 8500+
Damn thing still hesitating.
Almost worse now or for longer.
I'll try advance the timing.
I'm also running out of ideas.
Paul,
I still stay behind a electronics problem (after seeing the movie)
(But, can have it wrong of course)
My perspective, a empty bowl or fuel starvation is not giving you that fast your power back.
(It takes time to get the fuel back)
If you like to feel fuel starvation, just turn the feel tap on off will driving, when the engine starts to stall/stop open the tap, and you will feel how much time it takes to get full power back.
Can you mount a small multymeter on your tank, perhaps your charging system is given a certain peek power and the ignition turns off (for protection reason) or low power. just a idea
-Try a other ignition coil
Imported (to me)
The signal for the rev counter is it coming from the coil or is it coming from the prog ignition?
Hey Louis ;D
I want to believe its electrical. I have tried every fuel option/combination I can think of.
Rev counter signal is from coil, zeel has a orange wire to coil and as far as I can recall this is linked in the loom to rev counter.
What must I connect the multimeter to? The battery terminals?
Ok, I had hoped that the signal is coming from the cdi unit.
When you have your problem, the rev counter is still active (and not dropping)
This means that the cdi sees the pickup signal and is given the ignition pulse to the coil and tacho.
The tacho is still working, but does the coil work?
If you have lying one around, try a other coil.
Specially if you say ''it does do it more now then it use to be''.
i hope you find whats up with it paul as my 3xv is the same !
im going to drop the needles on notch this time , if i sort it ill let you know
Quote from: eyrey1 on May 13, 2013, 11:11:21 PM
i hope you find whats up with it paul as my 3xv is the same !
I know, i was hoping you'd beat me to it.
Louis, I think I do have a spare 3ma coil. I do have single 3xv coils. Can these be adapted? Split the orange wire?
You say not fuel but when rolling the throttle back open if I close it slightly and carry on opening it comes back to life. It's like the air rushing through the carb 1. isn't sucking the fuel or 2. sucks too much fuel. I can't tell which.
Just thinking. After listening to myself, I am running 0.7mm power jets. Do you think at the higher revs where it's working nice after being drawn on by natural acceleration they work great, then chopping and opening throttle causes a delay? Std PJ for 34mm carbs is a 10.
hi lads
this is dragging on somewhat i know ???, but some of you might still be slightly interested....
tried 30 powerjets and still the hesitation
decided to try the 32mm carbs, still the hesitation
maybe not as readily on lower revs but badly on higher revs
so i pulled the pods off to see if it wanted more air, it would hardly go, it prefers the pods
i can only report findings, i am lost. unless the head volume is too small ie too much compression. wht the #$%@@ would it hesitate?
Have you tried a different coil?
Also look closely to what type you have mounted.
-3MA00 coil
-3MA10 coil
You can try to use the two 3xv coils, if you don't have a 3ma lying around
I still doubt if its a fueling problem.
(To much compression wont cut out like that)
Sorry Louis
Yes I'll look into the coil the coil tomorrow. You said it last time.
It will be the first time since the 80's I've had an electrical issue on a Yamaha if you're right.
One thing is for sure. I took this motor out another bike and didn't change coils. This engine is running with the other engines coil.
Holding thumbs.
dug in the spares box and found the coil for this engine, it is also a 00
no difference i am afraid
so i grabbed the lappie and plugged in the zeel
i gave it advance like never before
a big meaty fat ign curve
1500-19
2000-30
8000-29
10000-20
11000-13
12000-8
12500-5
and whallaaaaa, it works. i know tuned engines like advance but "thought" avgas didnt so i tried to stick with a standard type curve, only earlier i recalled a TZ curve that held the advance. keep in mind this is a highly tuned engine.
the above curve i did without looking at the below graph
i have now made another watered down curve based on this and will also run it, i have my revs limited at 12000 so i dont self destruct, dont want to do a "louis" now!!!! whaaaaaaBANG!
i am so relieved.
this also means my airbox mod works.
Hello Paul.
Good to here you solved the problem with your bike.
Quotedug in the spares box and found the coil for this engine, it is also a 00
no difference i am afraid
Did you mount it, and try it.?
Or did you not used it because it whas the same type coil (3ma00)
Wouldn't throw it back in the spares box
Its a bid strange that changing a ignition curve, solved a problem that looks like/sounded like 'getting no spark''
(when the problem accures)
Perhaps it was a faulty program route. Had it sometimes with the ignitech to.
(it wouldn't start at all, programmed it again with the same settings and she fired up immediately)
No or less, its flying again. And that is exactly what it needs to do 8)
Quotedont want to do a "louis" now!!!! whaaaaaaBANG
Lets say I'm honored that I have created a 3ma term O:-)
I'm running the other coil now. Mounted.
I'll put more time into it next week. And more fuel.
That term is yours whaaaaaBANG because you caught it on camera and whenever I make changes I see it clearly. Now will this change do a Louis on me and go whaaaaaBANG
so now it's singing ;D ;D ;D ;D
endoscope the pistons and no detonation 8) 8) 8) 8)
jetting is sweet and it pulls clean, oh so clean O0 O0 O0 O0
now the big moment comes, and i curse the TZ i bought, because while this little 3MA goes something similar, it is not the same bike. it will never be a TZ, which is what i was trying to build when i started this over a year before i bought the TZ.
so..... i'm gonna sell it.
Hi Guys;
What I did find with the zeel coils dont matter I run mine on a 3ma10 coil but the bike electrics are 3ma00 initial coil had the same issues as a Paul changed between 10 and 00 coils same thing.
Paul glad to hear bike is fine and pulling nicely dont sell you need two bikes if you travel far for track days. backup is essential.
Edd
Ja edd
Will talk to you at next track day. Now you have that all singing and dancing trailer. Maybe you can help like we spoke. I'll know more in a month.
Spoke to George. Asked him to find me another TZ and maybe one for you. He laughed. Says you don't see them anymore. They get snapped up too quick.
You would have to double the price and budget on that .
Maybe you could run the bike on a rolling road or dyno and see with a timing light if it loses spark when you shut off like that . If not then it points to a fuel issue . Just thinking
Hi Neal
No I fixed it. Didn't realise that avgas needed more advance, its a slow burning fuel, a very clean and reliable but slow fuel. More compression would mean a little less advance. I have a slightly higher comp headset but that can wait.
It was not the coil. I reduced the advance after Louis advised just incase I was doing harm. But even a little reduction causes the problem to come back.
Thank goodness for the zeel as it is 8 degrees more in places.
Hi Paul'
8 degrees :o bloody hell that is a lot. Do you think this might be the issue with my 10500 rev limit with the 3ma10 heads. Whst I mean it is the timing that prevents the bike from reving any higher.
Edd
hi edd
this is new teritory for me
got it right on the 3ma
working on it with the 3xv now as it limits at 11000
it is happening fast at those rpm and you must catch the spark right else it will have adverse effects
Hi Paul;
Eagerly awaiting your results ;)
Edd
Been away for 2 days.
I think add 200 rpm to all advance curve values over 8000 and carefully see if it gets better
If it doesn't make it worse go another 200
If its worse remove 200 an test
What size PJ are you running.
I changed my 3ma down to 30 and it helped. Remember 3ma PJ doesn't switch off.
Hi Paul;
Drilled it out to 0.6mm power jet will do some test on the advance on the dyno will let you know.
Edd
hi edd
i have a 0.6 in the TZ and it too big
honestly itll suck too much at 10000rpm, meaning your mains need to go lower and not good.
She did her first track day yesterday and handled faultlessly. Tyres were the only let down. Oh and the crank.
It gave in and the 3MA gods were smiling on me as it gave in gracefully and did not trash the top end.
Head is wrong and needed a lot of advance but she ran perfect. New heads on the way and crank parts ordered.
Hi Paul glad you had a good weekend albeit an expensive one nice to see you fried you rear tyre and looking at the track on cranks post it's a wonder you didn't fry your tz cluch to ;D
Ja it is a tiny little track but you do get speed and training.
3MA crank parts are not wildly expensive like the 3MA for some reason.
That crank is 24 years old!!!!
Hi Paul;
The bike looks very nice, glad she handles well will be looking forward to red star already put in some leave ;D. I am waiting for new power jets decided to go two sizes bigger and bought 30's. Will stick those in and see what happens.
Edd
Why do you think the crank failed? Big end?
"Hey my bru hit a luck". When the big end went on my 250LC it tore a web off the crank and the bearing left (eventually) via the exhaust port.
Hi Paul
Were looking at your update
Quote from: Paul on May 25, 2013, 01:36:35 PM
Spoke to George. Asked him to find me another TZ and maybe one for you. He laughed. Says you don't see them anymore. They get snapped up too quick.
I just completed this web page today http://cjrenovering.dk/produkter/83-motorcykler-rr-renoverede/ (http://cjrenovering.dk/produkter/83-motorcykler-rr-renoverede/) and facebook here https://www.facebook.com/Cjrenovering (https://www.facebook.com/Cjrenovering)
He has a lot of spareparts too... So far only 10% off the Honda racing parts are uploaded, Yamaha will follow.
Hey N4S. Will have a look. At the farm now with crap signal. Well done.
Jakes, crank was 24 years old! The engine has a full tune and pipes by Coker. It pulls hard. TZ style. So expected in a way.
Yan, ja, I'm lucky. I did 2 races knowing it was F@&$@&d
Have you stripped it yet? What does the crank look like?
Hopefully I get a gap tomorrow. Never stripped cases on a 3ma so have to take it slow.
didnt really take it slow
i tore into it like a baboon in a banana crate
i needed to know if the crank was toast like it sounded
suspicions confirmed, lucky it held out, centre bearings were wobbly
also the balancing shaft roller bearings were stiff and "grindy", more grindy in the way they made a tight noise, if you know what i mean
parts came for the crank yesterday, sent it off to "eddies crank rebuilds", thanks eddie
waiting for the rest of the parts
i must say though, been inspecting cokers work and its very clean
Spares are slowly rolling in from Japan on back order. Edd should have the big ends i posted yesterday on Monday. So hopefully I'll get the crank when I see him at red star en of the month.
I have thought of little else but riding this beautiful machine around Idube, it was beautiful.
So I looked at the top casing this morning. It was so grubby. I took to it with a dremmel, and a screw driver. Sand and stones were bonded to the casing in that horrible well in front of the sprocket.
Then scotch scrub, back on the dremmel then degreaser then polish, degrease, scotch scrub and finally.... Don't tell the missus.... Dish washer.
I am happy and am stopping at this point.
right
edd has nearly finished the crank on this bike, final balance up to follow
i have all the bits waiting except the roller balance shaft bearing
this bike has to have a lot of advance, coker said he originally couldnt get the ideal dome out of the heads as 3ma have a deep dome as it is
so he has welded up and started again, he is not charging for this work but i can imagine itll cost big to make a spare
the combustion chamber looks allot like the aprilia ones i just had done
sort of tz shape everyone i ask'd or checked with said it was the optimum shape
Quote from: eyrey1 on August 23, 2013, 03:44:47 PM
the combustion chamber looks allot like the aprilia ones i just had done
sort of tz shape everyone i ask'd or checked with said it was the optimum shape
yip, he is doing me a TZ3MA, avgas
met eddie at redstar on the weekend and received my rebuilt 3ma crank, thanks eddie
i was waiting for 1 new bearing from japan as i had all the other bits, that came and so to did the new head from coker
so the spanners were flying
i printed off bits out the manual and parts list to help me with the order as when i stripped it i was more interested in heading down the pub to meet a mate.
there is a short video and the only 2 pics i took
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RjxX4iTe0U&list=UUP9IZ51fm0KU11qOZwA4cpw
i cant ride it as i am waiting for braided brake hoses
Looking and sounding great 8)
Quotei cant ride it as i am waiting for braided brake hoses
Can you call them, and say they have to speed things up you have your engine running ;D
Does the rear brake works, just a thought ;)
Cheers
Vilo Racing Bidalot... du Yam TZ Classic 1350€ TTC
http://www.bidalot.fr/19-vilebrequins-classic-racing (http://www.bidalot.fr/19-vilebrequins-classic-racing)
Look similar to 3MA with the gearing in the middle but it may not fit...
http://www.bidalot.fr/vilebrequins-classic-racing/654-vilebrequin-racing-yamaha-tz250-1981-1985.html (http://www.bidalot.fr/vilebrequins-classic-racing/654-vilebrequin-racing-yamaha-tz250-1981-1985.html)
expensive though those cranks, costs less than half to rebuild
oh and eddie.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG15xaA1cOc
you're fired, hahahhahahaha ;) ;) ;D
you start one of these things up and the crowds appear
anyone familiar with the phenomenon?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkW8-TNBkOI
Hi Paul;
Trust the crank is OK by the sound of things, the true test comes at 12000 rpm. Started the TZ crank.
Edd
Chuffed with race fairing.
Will she make an appearance this weekend?
oh yes she will!!
i have guessed jetting for RSR
expecting a winner, never ridden her on a track before, aside from idube which is not really a track to test a motor.
Hello Paul,
Looking good.
Is that the 3MA fairing your polyester man is making???
(I mean the same guy who makes your seat?)
Hi Louis
Yes. That I the complete set now. Note I moved the split line. Now bottom half is 1 unit. Typical race Style.
If you count all the pieces for seat and fairing. Before 8 after 3.
QuoteIf you count all the pieces for seat and fairing. Before 8 after 3.
Ah perfect, that is certainly race style :)
Did he changes something at the top half?
As it looks a bid bigger now. (or is it just the angle where the picture is taken)
Hi Paul how did she get on at red star? i agree with louis the top fairing looks different ???
Hi lads. It's an exact copy. The split has been moved further down race style AND the silly return behind the hand guards is not there. That to me is a huge bonus as this was the only thing that caught my eye as being out of place on a 3MA. I even painter this piece black on my last fairing job.
Oh. She went very very well at RSR. Unbelievable in fact. I little more refinement with jetting and if I had dyno time....
Thanks Paul for the feed back.
QuoteAND the silly return behind the hand guards is not there
Now you mentioned it, yes that is the different in looks :)
Great to her she is going well
shit it's been a while!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
this bike is sitting in UK customs as i type, and i'm getting a little excited.
i'll be putting her back on the road, slowly... il no doubt be begging for parts.
when i was in SA recently the tennants of our house handed me a bag of photos they found under the stairs.
here is Trevor Crookes who won the 1991 SA championship on the 3MA in the pics, sadly not this bike of mine, but i did buy it off him in 1992 and had it until 1995, it was then road legal. the other pics are of him racing it.
Check out those knee sliders!
The 3MA arrives in UK
it going to be a track bike paul or road?
Dunno. Would love to put it on the road. I'm not rushing.
What I will do is sort out a proper dyno run and get it spot on.
See the notes I taped to the tank nearly 15 months ago.
Aah, Welsh rain drops...........
QuoteAah, Welsh rain drops...........
Must be tears of joy to see it again :)
cant be rain, it never rains in wales!
Those are tear drops!!!!!
There, I said it.
Glad to see you decided to hang onto it Paul.
Ja. This one I threw bags of money at.
It has to be the fastest 3MA in UK!????????????
One thing I realised at redstar (the only time I really rode it after mods, and I only did 2 sessions) is this bike has some serious acceleration.
I'll have to wait to get it on the dyno later this year.
well, i had it on ebay and it didnt sell
i had a strange feeling of relief yesterday, i started her up and she ended up on the work bench, i hummed and haaaaaared... what am i going to do with you girl?
back on the road? what for? i thought, so i have to MOT you every year and pay for licencing and insurance? plus i need a shit load of parts as i cut a lot up when i shed loads of weight. no, it track for you baby!
so i pulled the seat unit off and started sanding.
i will do a paint job on her like the TZ, I will finish the few things i never got around to, tidy the loom, weld a bracket on the clocks and take her to the dyno. i will also fit the 34mm carbs which i had painstakingly modified to be singular units with dual cables running off a TZ throttle.
one thing that bothered me the one and only time i rode her round a track was the footpegs, anyone got any idea on where i can get 3MA race rear sets?
watch this spot and look out for this rocket on the track, it has serious acceleration!
i will finish you my little 3MA
Maybe a considerration..
Cheers n4s
Have you tried it? Do the TZ pegs simply bolt on? No machining?
No problem - fits perfect.
http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/b171639559 (http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/b171639559)
'89 ~ TZR250 1KT, TZR250RS 3MA, step bar machined aluminum can attached to a genuine step holder of TZR250SPR, is a fixed type.
In step bar total length 108mm, length of the knurled part 84mm, bar diameter 25φ, the length of the holder insertion portion 24mm, is the spigot diameter 16.9φ.
Step bar of color silver anodized aluminum specification.
There were no problem with the purchase and the quality was as expected. (nice price by the way :) )
Do you have to buy them through an agent?
Sure looks like a cheap solution
no - just login and make you bid -
Well I splashed out and bought a £23 orbital sander. Brilliant.
Problem with these fairings I had made is the moulds were cast with the original stickers on so I have all these raised pieces where the stickers were.
No problem for mr mouse my sander.
Also did the seat today and gave it a base white.
Is it an orbital or a random orbital sander? I only ask as Lidl have both types on cheap on Monday http://www.lidl.co.uk/en/our-offers-2491.htm?action=showDetail&id=24641 (http://www.lidl.co.uk/en/our-offers-2491.htm?action=showDetail&id=24641) and I need to prep one of my tanks (I've been collecting ::))
Black and decker Yan and it's called a Mouse. Dunno for sure but it works. Massive labor saving device.
Quote from: Paul on June 26, 2015, 11:06:27 PM
Black and decker Yan and it's called a Mouse. Dunno for sure but it works. Massive labor saving device.
I think I have one in the garage, my wife bought it to "do some DIY" and it's sat there for 10 years. I'll dig it out and give it a go.
The seat - is it a prototype - or do you have more..?
Quote from: Need4speed on June 27, 2015, 08:38:45 AM
The seat - is it a prototype - or do you have more..?
I took my spare 3ma fairings in an had moulds made and modified to make it 3 piece race fairings. Eddie and I paid for the mould as we both took a set. They are rough to start but come out nice once sanded down. They work out to just over £100 for the lot.
Problem is they are made in South Africa. Should still work out to be a fraction of the price of the set RC46 bought
Quote from: Need4speed on June 26, 2015, 09:31:36 AM
No problem - fits perfect.
http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/b171639559 (http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/b171639559)
'89 ~ TZR250 1KT, TZR250RS 3MA, step bar machined aluminum can attached to a genuine step holder of TZR250SPR, is a fixed type.
In step bar total length 108mm, length of the knurled part 84mm, bar diameter 25φ, the length of the holder insertion portion 24mm, is the spigot diameter 16.9φ.
Step bar of color silver anodized aluminum specification.
There were no problem with the purchase and the quality was as expected. (nice price by the way :) )
These items need the SP hangers. I'm still after a solution
The pegs I'm using are from woodcraft technologies in the U.S.
They are for a fzr400. They fit straight on the 3MA1 rearsets.
QuoteThese items need the SP hangers.
only for your info. all my 3MA (3 units) fit these - they do not need other parts or SP hangers.
Silly me. There's stuff online http://www.maxmcdirect.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DA06BY05&cat=13
I did a lot today
Tidied the loom. Stripped it and re routed it. Battery has gone back down to the underside.
Pic is what you see when you remove the tank. Nice and empty.
The other 2 just look good :D
Quote from: Tim on June 27, 2015, 06:25:31 PM
The pegs I'm using are from woodcraft technologies in the U.S.
They are for a fzr400. They fit straight on the 3MA1 rearsets.
Thanks Tim
I ordered a set. Helpful lads working there.
I am chewing through all these small niggly things that were bothering me for ages on this bike! Enjoying myself immensely.
Next is the carbs then I'll have to pop to the dyno.
Swapped the carbs to the 34's I had converted into single units.
This allows me to use 2 of the 5ke throttle cables and a TZ throttle
I did a few improvements in the process.
Also changed the jetting
I am almost ready for the dyno
I see all my paint came today to
Here's a video of it running on the 34's http://youtu.be/uA_Uj8Vj9tQ
Did some work on the cdi
I'm replicating the TZ 4xv curve as a start point
Also some painting
Your 3ma sounds great! One of these days I'll get mine going again.
I think you'll like the pegs. Very grippy. Woodcraft also makes nice clipons too at a fair price.
Pegs are great. Thanks again.
Got a pair of SP heads I'll now cut and modify for inserts. Cheers Dan.
After the dyno I will have a better idea on how to cut them. I'm considering going back to pump fuel and simply copy a TZ profile but then I'll need flat pistons. Any ideas?
I am also considering working on my spare engine and trying something out the box. Like boring it out. I can't find the link to the 5ke modified 3ma but think I should keep the same stroke. Any ideas.
Took heads in for modifying this morning.
It's quite a little engineering feat so we'll see how he gets on
Took my spare engine up to the workshop and started to strip
It looks good in there except I've had a foreign object go through, there was a time I was running open carbs
I'll sell this head and make a thread for it.
The bloke doing my heads has done nothing while I've been away. His high speed on his lathe went down and he also went on holiday.
Just as well as my setup is so close and all it ever needed was 1/2 hour on the dyno so ill do this important step rather than compound matters with different pistons and heads. I'll get this right BUT I am going to do it with high grade pump fuel rather than Avgas.
In the meantime I've done some painting.
like the single seat look forward to seeing it up and running..
Quote from: fozzy on August 23, 2015, 04:25:46 PM
like the single seat look forward to seeing it up and running..
Here is a clip from when I first got it started here in UK after almost 2 years storage.
Bigger carbs on it now and a different ign curve... And a paint job. ;D ;D ;D
http://youtu.be/msGJrXukuXY
And here one with the larger carbs
http://youtu.be/ogCgiLIQGVs
Looks and sounds really good Paul.
Can´t beat the sound of the straight 180* 2cylinder. It´s glorious ;D
On a completly different matter. I tottaly forgot I was supposed to send a couple of pics of some special 34mm mikunis.
I can do if you still interested... but your bike sounds pretty good with those.
Paul, be careful with those rigid footpegs. The std. mounts are not very high, and there is the risk of them touching the asfalt, mine did when pushing a bit more. Not so dangerous on std. retractable ones, but rigid mounted can be dangerous I guess.
Cheers CF
I raced it just before the rebuild and I had a lot of people come up to me and say it had a true GP-bike note to the exhaust.
I didn't push you for those carbs as I eventually sat down, cleared the table and finished the 34's I have converted into single carbs. Makes changing the needle easier and I prefer each carb having its own cable.
I'll see if I can get to the dyno Wednesday. I just need to test if it'll run on unleaded first. I need a policeman free piece of road.
Cheers for the pointers on the foot pegs. I tend to ride until I feel the sides of my feet scraping the tar and that is an indication that I am getting too wise.
What head volume you have ?
13.2:1 if a remember correctly
Very nice looking and sounding!! 8)
8)
Very good looking Paul. 8)
Just a small question?
Is that your workshop? My house fits in there (twice :o) ;D
Quote from: Louis on August 25, 2015, 08:39:02 PM
Very good looking Paul. 8)
Just a small question?
Is that your workshop? My house fits in there (twice :o) ;D
Cheers lads
No louis. Unfortunately it's not. I've rented a portion of a large workshop.
The crap you see in there is not mine either. ;)
Nice sound and colors, great job Paul !
;)
Cheers toop
I warmed her up today and gave her a good rev
Right pipe is smoking like a bastard! I can't ride it yet as the weather sucks.
http://youtu.be/bPwPK3jpxV8
That sounds beautifully Paul.
Bet you´r glad nobody grabbed it while you were thinking of letting her go.
hi boys
finally started work on the SP heads which i want to machine inserts for.
the plan is flat pistons and put the bike back onto unleaded
max HP of course, with a tiny back-off of timing like i did to my 3DP (after a few beers it was decided the 4XV be renamed 3DP, for those that followed that project)
this bike will end up back on the road once the motor is finished 100%, i might move it to france
i also have the "hesitation" that edd has described (coker mods), like him i exhausted all efforts to get rid of it and I feel it's in the heads and fuel, anyhow it cant be rocket science, i will go top to bottom
the 4TW heads worked so well on the 3DP with high grade pump fuel and has proven to be very reliable to (i was worried about the compression being so high some might recall)
With my 3DP getting its annual strip down I'll get a tool made to copy the profile of the heads I use in it for the 3ma. 4TW unleaded heads.
Should have the blanks made up next week or week after.
Paul, are you going to skim 2mm or so off the base of the barrels to run 4DP pistons?
Dan
Quote from: maccas on November 14, 2015, 05:23:58 PM
Paul, are you going to skim 2mm or so off the base of the barrels to run 4DP pistons?
Dan
Hi dan. That's interesting. Never even considered that! Good idea.
Id have to check. Has anyone done it that you know?
What about small end bearing? I think the pin is the same diameter off the top of my head.
I've definitely seen it done somewhere on the forum in the past Paul. I'm going to try and go down the longer rod option rather than skimming the base of the cylinders, haven't got the engine to bits yet though so I'm a way off that!
Dan
Thanks to dan x2
His suggestion and the gaskets. Cheers mate.
I fitted a TZ piston, small end and gudgeon pin. A 0.5mm paper gasket and got it to TDC and measured what I have to take off the bottom to have a zero piston protrusion. It's 1.3mm.
So that's all good.
Some progress
Almost there. Taking it slow and checking absolutely everything every step of the way
We have nice flow over the top.
Only issue is spark plug hole length, looks too long. But we can recess if need be.
Quote from: Paul on November 18, 2015, 07:38:20 PM
Thanks to dan x2
His suggestion and the gaskets. Cheers mate.
I fitted a TZ piston, small end and gudgeon pin. A 0.5mm paper gasket and got it to TDC and measured what I have to take off the bottom to have a zero piston protrusion. It's 1.3mm.
So that's all good.
Looking good Paul :)
Interesting setup!
Some progress
Heads look fantastic. We need to recess the spark plug and machine the base of the cylinder. It'll be back together by Wednesday and the following week I hope to dyno it if poss.
TZ 4dp pistons.
Waiting for new bolts for heads and I'll fire it up.
Already loaded map from my 3xv adapted for 3ma
Pipes back on
Waiting for damn bolts
Also posted a question on linking the cooling pipes.
Love the 3ma motor, im going to keep my eye out for one me thinks...
Paul that's a picture that wouldn't look out of place in playboy ;D
Quote from: ybk on January 28, 2016, 07:52:32 AM
Paul that's a picture that wouldn't look out of place in playboy ;D
A knock kneed ho?
Begging to be twisted!! ;D
Awesome work!!
Coming on
Looking good Paul 8). Some really interesting (and very neat) work on the heads there! It'll be fascinating to see how it goes :).
Cheers Warwick
Im back together at last
Squish is 1mm i can take it down to 0.8 if its desired
Volume is 9cm3 which is tight for 99 unleaded but my 3xv loves it.
Will you believe it started 2nd kick. Dry carbs n all.
After a warm up i took this video
I also drained the crank and inlets by removing the pipes under and loads of kak came out
Thats standing for you
Gonna ride this thing this year.
http://youtu.be/tcaf1c2qNhM
Sounds well that Paul!
Glad the heads were of good use!
Dan
What you running paul pod filters or air box?
Quote from: fozzy on January 30, 2016, 10:08:28 PM
What you running paul pod filters or air box?
i cut the ducts and adapted 2 pods to fit snug, i only have the lower part of the airbox that connects to the carbs and about 4 inches of duct.
Nice work Paul, paint job looks coolio.
did those 4DP pistons need any special attention ?
Sounds lovely 8). Have you had the chance to ride it yet?
No jools. Theyre a bit shorter so seems good.
No riding yet. Dyno first to set her up
I think the colour scheme is great and that boney sounds sweet .
It sounds and looks lovely Paul.
Noticed how it doesn´t choke up while blipping the throttle... and went down to the begining pages to take a better look at your beautiful pipes... interesting...
Thanks lads
Tomorrow is the big day. Booked into the dyno.
Just remembered I need to take laptop. And cables. Oops.
Good luck on the dyno Paul.
Dan
Quote from: Paul on February 03, 2016, 06:34:33 PM
Thanks lads
Tomorrow is the big day. Booked into the dyno.
Just remembered I need to take laptop. And cables. Oops.
Howzit Paul
how did the bike do on the dyno?
very well wayne, thanks
The o-ring wasnt sealing
i had to change them to 0.2mm bigger seals top and bottom and when i finally got that done
i could concentrate on the ignition
i am happy, i have created, at huge expense, a very nice, strong 3MA motor.
Quote from: Paul on February 26, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
very well wayne, thanks
The o-ring wasnt sealing
i had to change them to 0.2mm bigger seals top and bottom and when i finally got that done
i could concentrate on the ignition
i am happy, i have created, at huge expense, a very nice, strong 3MA motor.
Thats awsum bru
What power and torque did it make, if i may ask? :-X
Strange that only o.2 mm made the o rings leak, was it on the compression side into the water jakets?
All I will say. It makes beautiful power but does not match a 3xv with TZ bits.
I pulled her out yesterday
Haven't looked at her since the dyno
Changed fork seals and give the forks a complete strip and clean.
Strip carbs and check.
She's ready for donnington after which she gets original fairings, loom, clocks etc and goes back on the road.
I know I've been on and off regards selling the bike but she is so sorted now after all this time that I will enjoy a few rides before deciding what to do.
Quote from: Paul on February 26, 2016, 06:19:15 PM
All I will say. It makes beautiful power but does not match a 3xv with TZ bits.
This sounded disappointed
Quote from: Yuri on May 23, 2016, 09:26:50 PM
Quote from: Paul on February 26, 2016, 06:19:15 PM
All I will say. It makes beautiful power but does not match a 3xv with TZ bits.
This sounded disappointed
Spot on Yuri. I believed too much B.S. I saw elsewhere and expected much higher results. Now, a few months later, I am actually very pleased. It's 12hp less than my 4DP and cost me tonnes of money and time but it peaks out at 11700 which is high for a 3MA and keeps going. Doesn't drop off.
I finished what I set out to do nearly 4&1/2 years ago.
Finished today
All packed away and ready for 16 June.
Nice Paul, you painted it yourself ?
don't rag it to hard, you never know I might buy it in the future, not bought nothing for a month..
Hi Toop. Yes. Rattle can man.
Hey fozzy. Just don't sell your 3ma until we've had a ride.
Nice job there Paul
looks the dogs, looking forward to seeing it at Donington and saying Hi ;)
Paul, that really looks the bizz man.
Looks good, and performs good. It´s the Charlize Theron of 3MAs ;D
Cheers
Rui
Quote from: Paul on May 25, 2016, 07:00:19 PM
Hi Toop. Yes. Rattle can man.
Hey fozzy. Just don't sell your 3ma until we've had a ride.
I will get my 3ma running next, I hope to have the 916 going next week ordered a temperature sensor for it, then after that pull the carbs on the 3ma and some fresh fuel she should be a runner then
You guys are too kind
Jools, we're gonna meet? Oh shit! I'll put the frosties on ice.
just listened to it on the vid clip also the other vid on the dyno (same bike)?
sounds very crisp like it a lot.
Quote from: Paul on May 25, 2016, 11:46:24 PM
You guys are too kind
Jools, we're gonna meet? Oh shit! I'll put the frosties on ice.
Hope you are not referring to the Kellogs variety :))
Hehe
Well noted. I'll make sure it's at least been processed into liquid form.
a report back
i forget when i started this project, my guess today is it was 4.5 to 5 years ago
yesterday i rode it for the first time after finally finishing it
i was only going to ride it at donnington in a few weeks but decided to take it to anglesey
i met 'dave' i think it was, who has done 2 3ma's recently and got similar figures to me, although he admits (and he saw my curve data as he is friends with kevin at projex) his neve reved out like mine. mine goes all the way. his were 10600-ish where mine is more like 11600. my PV is only fully open at 10600.
anyway, ill keep it short.
i got a careful 2 laps in before tonking it, i wanted to feel the forks and tyres plus run the engine in. then i went for it. the bike has insane acceleration. it lurches forward after you hit the 10000 mark it pulls to 13000 quicker than you can tap off and change gear.
it has the bog on throttle off and i was just starting to get the hang of it (how to effectivly ride it and avoid the bog) when it started running on one cylinder. i has just over halfway around the course and couldnt get my head around it.
i pulled in and decided to take the plugs out.
well the bike had done half the job for me, the left plug was all but out the head. it had wriggled loose, i hadnt wanted to over tighten them because of the inserts. the rhs plug was completely oiled up. in our efforts to get it going, i only had 1 spare plug, we flooded it.
i decided to leave it and just ride the TZ.
i stripped her today and pistons are like new still. so ill get her back together for donnington with new plugs. there is nothing else left to do but ride her, which i can't wait to do. that acceleration is more insane than the TZ
Great report Paul
I guess your bal heart sank into your chest when it startet playing numbers on you ;D
Paul, could you please refresh what kind of air correction your using, and what numbers?
I went back to the vids you took at the dyno, and remembered that the dyno man said something about air velocity in the carbs?
It seems like the carbs are slow to react to throttle input? Goes lean then settles? - Could this be that excessive air correction could be a cause you think???
Do you mean the fixed air jets?
Hi Paul.
Yes. Is it fixed your running?
Yes. Either 1.1 or 1.2mm. Can't remember. I fitted them a long time ago and have never changed them.
I'm listening, what do you rekon?
A pic of top end
No carbon anywhere? Head gasket leaking maybe?
Dan
They had a light film of wonderful 927 oil and a slight tan which I cleaned off when scotch brighting the tops
New Pistons that have done a little work at the dyno and 10 minutes at the track.
Avgas or pump fuel Paul?
Why have you gone off avgas?
Availability?
im sure its all in the text earlier scotty but avgas is going to change soon to be part (if not all) unleaded, it's being phased out. i can get 99 at a few garages, most the supermarkets have it.
i am impressed with it and have had no problems running over a year on the TZ kitted 3xv which is on the road and avgas is impractical.
you get a lot of bang for your buck.
i have even got spare heads and CDI ready to change the TZ over.
I put locator pins for the heads
That'll give me a bit of surety when tightening the spark plugs.
Good work Paul, that will secure the inserts definitely.
Quote from: Paul on June 02, 2016, 09:28:35 AM
Yes. Either 1.1 or 1.2mm. Can't remember. I fitted them a long time ago and have never changed them.
I'm listening, what do you rekon?
Hi Paul. Misted this post of yours.
Please, read this as only a consideration (another one), maybe check with your dyno man?
Since the 3MA race manual is available (a big thanks to our friend across the pond), it is for all the see that on all 3MA race models the air correction was reduced.
Another consideration, and I have been searching like crazy without conclusiv results, is that perhaps mikuni jet numbers do not correspond to mm.
The increse in cross area measured in mm is very disproportional - like if 0.5mm has X cross area, one could be inclined to think that 1mm would be 2.X cross area. This is not the case. 1mm cross area is much more then that.
So, if you have a 1mm air jet, and think it is equivalent to a #100 mikuni - not even close.
Important bit being that maybe, perhaps there is nothing wrong with air velocity in the carb, but the ability to supply fuel fast enough when the side is cracked fast because of the large air jet?
I tested a bit this theori with terrible results ;D... but also one major mistake, I discarted it without an adequated test. I tested with the bike on the stand just by feeling and listening to engine response while it was being reved.
A 3MA behaves very different being reved at the stand, and turning laps at the track.
Just my opinion
Thanks Rui.
I used an air jet at the time that worked best. I wasn't reading manuals or jet size charts, I was using my mini drill bits.
I fully understand the difference between area and diameter and how area increases exponentially as diameter is increased. But like I say I was testing, on the road, what worked best.
It does concern me that the bog feels like too much air and I have wondered if it's the air jet but think it's the venturi in the carb throat.
this single bloody thing (air jet) is so critical and playing with it affects other settings. I curse the Std carbs most of all. I do need to ride it more as I was getting the hang of it and it only bogged about 3 times. I am sure it's related to how quick you open the throttle and I have a shorter twist TZ unit which probably opens too quick.
I am open to thought and suggestions and am waiting to hear how Louis goes with his testing.
Quote from: casal-fan on June 06, 2016, 12:08:32 AM...perhaps mikuni jet numbers do not correspond to mm...
That is correct Rui, but only for the
hex (large or small) main jets, as far as I know :-\ . It seems that fuel inlet needle valves, pilot jets, air jets and
round (large or small) main jets are all rated according to inside diameter (e.g. 100 = 1.00mm). If anyone knows different, please tell us!
I found a conversion table which may be of interest to convert Mikuni hex main jet "flow rate size" (same as Amal sizes) to actual internal diameter (Keihin, Dell'Orto etc.): http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/t500_files/mikuni.pdf (http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/t500_files/mikuni.pdf)
There is also a table from JetsRUs (http://www.jetsrus.com/FAQs/FAQ_mikuni_vs_dynojet_vs_keihin_sizes.htm (http://www.jetsrus.com/FAQs/FAQ_mikuni_vs_dynojet_vs_keihin_sizes.htm)), but it doesn't state which types of Mikuni jets it applies to (I would suggest it compares the Keihin main jets to Mikuni round-type main jets).
Regards,
James
EDIT: I have an idea that starter jets type VM17/1002 may also be sized according to flow. This type of jet was used for the power jets in the TM28SS carbs on the 2XT model and others. I have only size 65 of this type - the hole is a fair bit bigger than 0.65mm, but smaller than 0.8mm (this seems to be the reverse of the usual relationship between hex and round main jets!). Again; if anyone else has any insight, please let us know!
After a long time together. SOLD to a chuffed enthusiastic new owner.
Anyone we know paul
Not a forum member.
A guy who's been off 2 strokes for a while.
It couldn't have gone to a better bloke.
Quote from: Paul on July 12, 2016, 08:15:05 AM
Not a forum member.
A guy who's been off 2 strokes for a while.
It couldn't have gone to a better bloke.
well it could of...... me O0
were hope to ride this weekend paul, if you fancy a fix of castrol