So I have started a new project, I bought a used 4FL. I got that cheap, of course it needs a new heart (engine is broken), some renovation of her clothes (the seat is a racing one without cutout for the taillight, the fairing V-piece is missing, etc.) and a new makeup (no paint job at all).
I will take her apart, get the frame and swing arm painted and will put everything together. To get the TÜV approval I will use the engine of an other 4FL I have (will be sold after that) and then start to build the engine taking a 3XV barrel and a new pipe.
I have a R model stock fork which I will take and will convert the electric system with a available 3XV loom (no E-starter any more...)
I took the bike apart on the weekend and found one strange thing with the ignition key mounting... There are no bolts like on my 3XV or RZ, only this kind of clamps.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi643.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu160%2F41juergen%2FTZR%2520125%2520R%25204FL%2Felectrics%2FWP_20171022_16_53_00_Pro_zpsovnfu4mm.jpg&hash=9b0d8e5bf2f6f955f216acbe011ab1e833c06702) (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20125%20R%204FL/electrics/WP_20171022_16_53_00_Pro_zpsovnfu4mm.jpg.html)
So has someone a good idea how I can remove them or cut that back to take the things apart?
Braking bolds :) they are common in the car industry for parts witch are not mend to remove easily
The Top was probably imbus or torx, you tighten it more and more until the head brakes off.
You can try to tap a bid on top so it is nice and flat start drilling with a 1,5 or 2mm drill and go bigger as it goes.
Until you drill the remaining head off and you can remove the key lock (-P)
Thank's Louis will try...
You can also use an arc welder.
The heat will destroy the loctite if any and the metal dilation steel vs alloy will make the unbolting more easy.
If the can stick the welding rod on the bolt then you could unscrew it.
I'll not be as it was for me.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frd500lc.free.fr%2Ftzr-250-2xt%2Fnormal%2F12%2FTZR-FZR_08.jpg&hash=fa32bc1eff99b18adc894c735ebbb21e70c98eca)
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That's an good idea Oliver, thank's!
What is a 4FL?
Love the paint job - what we call the "clown car" look:
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/83/b9/6e/83b96e101b26c6f45be541c0d17b1100--halloween--halloween-circus.jpg)
The 4FL is the "Japanese" TZR125 here in Germany, it has some parts shared with the 3XV. The Swiss version is a 4HX I believe...
VW sold a POLO Harlekin longer time ago... :))
Just a question: is it correct that the 4FL engine don't has an oil pump cover installed? In the repair / spare parts manuals it can be seen that the DT's or Sachs engines have one...
This is correct, 4FL's do not have an oil pump cover as they use a different type of pump that does not fit under the older TDR/sachs cover.
I wanted a cover for ours, so modified an earlier one.
I guess yamaha were lazy and decided not to bother making a new design cover for the 4FL!
Thank's Martin for the info. Would you share a pic of the one you made, I like that idea... ;) Or will may be the one from a 4DL fit?
I'll take a decent picture for you tomorrow ^-^
Pics of oil pump.. you can see where the plastic has been cut away and reshaped with body filler to fit over the large roil pump. The cable area has a bit of curved steel, held in with filler and glue.
(https://image.ibb.co/nBVdfG/oilp.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/cFyyfG/oilpum.jpg)
Perfect, thank's a lot Martin. I will try to copy that idea (if you allow... :)))
cheers
Juergen
It's a fiddly job, but satisfying once you've done it.. ^-^
It might be a case of having the wrong pump fitted to the clutch cover..The earlier electric start 3mb00 engines pump location is different to the later version fitted to 4fl/4hw and the later DT125r..
In picture upper casing is from earlier models and below that later models. The later one just uses a flat plastic cover over the top..
I didn't know that.. maybe there was an interim year where the 4FL didn't have the updated clutch cover? Because mine is certainly all yamaha, it has a special little cable holder where the cable goes on. It was only when the later DT came out they thought they'd better make a proper cover..
Perfekt guys, thank's a lot for all the help. Exactly that's what I found too. I have got a spare engine from a DT125. It has the later clutch cover with the flat oil pump cover with a 4FL pump fitted. I will take that for my project..
cheers
Juergen
Just another question: what is the largest front sprocket a 4FL can be mounted on? Is it 17 teeth or does even 20 teeth fit? And is there any difference between the model years or to the DT bikes?
cheers
Juergen
Hello Juergen,
To be honest I don't know.
Looking to the space between chain and housing at the front sprocket think 20 should be doable (if they sell it)
But way so large?
Louis
Hi Louis, thank's for the feedback. Last Saturday I got a 17 and a 20 teeth one and yes, it looks like it fits!
The reason is that I need to gear up to approx. 190 km/h for that engine.... :D (okay, assuming that I really can get about 45+ HP out of it).
cheers
Juergen
Here is an update of the last month work. The frame and the swing arm was painted like the 3XV. The front end are the 3XV4 parts I had after putting the SP things into the 3XV. The body work she got loaned from here bigger sister. I also modified the parts around the 3XV cylinder / head to fit into the frame. Next is the engine itself, I have started to modify the inlet to take up the 3XV reeds.
Hello Juergen,
Your 4FL certainly looks great that's for sure. It's almost like a 250 8)
45HP wow you are asking something, I'm having trouble to get a solid 30
Hoping that with higher transfers I'm getting close to 29HP and then with a free programmable ignition and perhaps some exhaust tricks hope to see the +30
We going almost the same route, me to will be widening the reedblockspace (not that big a yours) to fit a honda 125 reedblock
Will be watching your project Closely :)
That looks terrific, Jeurgen!
Does a 3XV swingarm fit in the 4FL frame by any chance? ?:-| 8)
So of course the 45+ HP is more a Christmas wish rather then an "easy to archive" thing... ;)
However a solid 40+ should be possible as the TZ250 short stroker from middle of the 90's were capable to do that, so let's see. And when getting in this higher power range you need to have the larger reed case, otherwise you get short with the reed area (may be except with the VForce setup).
The 3XV swing arm will not fit (or at least not easy) as the rear engine mount goes through the swing arm pivot. I'm looking for alternatives, may be a 1KT swing arm with some significant mods would do the job. The other solution would be a 3MA swing arm turned upside down, but these are far to expensive.
Wow Juergen, how did you mount the 3xv cylinder? I'm intrigued!
Dan
Not yet... :)) So I'm on the way to get a stainless steel (3,0mm) laser cut of the 3XV base gasket. With that I need to weld a bit more "meat" around the future stud positions. Than it will be cut flat and the new threads for the studs needs to be done. At least that's the plan... I also get back soon a 31K con-rod (110mm) which got a 2mm smaller small-end and will be used in that crank.
Great Job so far. Looking at your intake, the guy with the welder will have to do some extra hours! Hopefully the case doesn't get too much heat distortion! I'm really excited to see some progress!
Also I like the fact that you build an 1,5xv engine and Louis is building one with the 3ma cylinder. Let's see what works best :)
Regards Lorenz
Admiring your work , i spotted the chain guard on the 4fl swingin arm ? Is it a 3xv one and does it bolt on? My plastic long one is quite hideous . Thanks for sharing .
@Lorenz: the plan is to pre heat the case before welding to minimize distortion... hope it will work out.
@Tim: yes, its from the 3XV. Its not a bolt on, but I drilled a hole into the upper frame/rail of the swing arm to fit a rivet bolt (for the black plastic piece). To fit the alu piece I made a "bolt on" bracket which is mounted with the bolt below of the fender...
So here is another question: what is the correct Position for the lower bolt of the rear shock? I have 2 different setups, one in the middle (locks like the stock position) and the higher one. On my 3XV I have mounted a 5mm ring below the upper mounting point which helps to get into the corners a bit easier. With the 4FL shock beeing mounted in the top position the distance from middle of the axle to a bolt on point of the rear seat frame is the same as on the 3XV, so should be the same chassis geometry ....
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi643.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu160%2F41juergen%2FTZR%2520125%2520R%25204FL%2FWP_20180330_11_59_07_Pro1_zpsfxkmxj0a.jpg&hash=3ff3fbe2391dce9c99a7b60c08834be96d1602b3) (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20125%20R%204FL/WP_20180330_11_59_07_Pro1_zpsfxkmxj0a.jpg.html)
middle hole is correct one
(-P)also confirm its the middle hole , iv seen 3 now mounted wrong . Easy fix tho
Thank's a lot for the feedback, will change it back...
Update: after several welding and cutting sessions this is how the engine looks like today:
welding session...
1.pic
after cutting and more welding and more cutting its that..
2.pic
the reed case modified...
3.pic
reeds married between 3XV and 4FL...
4.pic
spacer plate and modified PV bracket..
The spacer plate is needed because the 4FL has a 105mm rod and I installed a modified RZ 110mm rod to fit (as the 3XV has).
5.pic
Wow! Impressive work.
Great work (-P)
Another update...
Welded the 3XV flange to the 4FL pipe..
And than put everthing together and brought her to life..
Cool little bike (-P)
Just a question: is the gear box transmition the same between a 4FL and a 4DL?
Thank's for the feedback
Juergen
No, the references are different!
Not so much staging, but the finish is extra on the 4DL ...
Also, you can easily make an SP box, better adapted to the sport. The gables are available ...
Sorry Toop, may be I do not understand correctly. So you say the gear ratios are different between the 4FL and the 4DL? Is the 4DL better to siut on a road going bike (no race bike!)? And what do you mean with "the finish is extra", is the manufacturing process better for the 4DL?
Juergen
Here's what I have for the ratios, I don't know what the SP is.
4DL ratios 4HW
primary 3.318 3.227
1st 2.5 2.833
2nd 1.937 1.813
3rd 1.684 1.368
4th 1.142 1.143
5th 1.136 1
6th 1.043 0.917
final 18/51 16/46
Hi @ all,
I have a different info about the gear ratio between the DL and HW (in german it´s called "FL").....they are similar.
Secondary ratio:
HW/FL = 16/46
DL R = 18/47
DL RR = 18/51
The SP-Version has a different gear ratio than the DL´s. I dont own any printed info about the SP but if i remember right, the 1st and 6th gear are longer compiled. Secondary ratio is the same like the DL RR 18/51.
Regards
Chris
Thank's Chris, will check it out..
It should not be wrong, with a small displacement, single cylinder ... enlarge the difference in speeds makes very wise behavior (for industry that restrict, it depollue ...).
For us a sporty staging is dynamic behavior, even everyday on the road ;)
I will come back with the SP staging, I must have the references of the gears that differ from the 4DL O:-)
Perfect, thank's a lot!
Have a look at this :
4DL2 is TZR-SP
3NC is DTR-TDR origine ;)
4JT is tz125
1C3 is yz 125 +2003
There are plenty of elements to cross, a gearbox of a utility road bike is the worst of the worst case ... ::)
You will notice that the YZ is quite similar to the TZ with the exception of the primary gear ratio ... I let you interpret this fact where one pulls short and the other long, while neither is overdrive ;)
Do all the TZR125 gears fit in all models?
4DL1, 4DL2, 4FL, 5AE,4FU have similar cases and similar gearbox
3BN (DTR and TDR) have trees, pinions, bell clutch similar to TZR and so must exchange
2RH is similar to the DTR and also to the TZR of this top (I have to compare the bearings to be 100% certain) ;)
I prefer working from a transmission 4DL by its staging and excellent finish
Update: this is the latest setup, now working on getting the parts togther for the engine upgrade, will start with a TZ setup and will do my own cylinder later..
Great (-P)
Looks very nice , ill be copying the chain guard like yours . What are them mirrors off ? There tiny
Back on the days they introduced them as "F1 mirrors".... ;D But they are tiny and do their job, you can get them e.g. here..
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173485279273?ViewItem=&item=173485279273
Just a question to the ones having more know how than I have:
I have 2 different cranks for a DT125 / TZR125, they have a different thread for the primary gear:
one with M12x1,25 mm, the other with a M10x1,0 mm thread. Did Yamaha made a change of the threads during the different model years?
cheers
Juergen
I know there are two different crankshafts, one with long tail ignition (the case with electric starter) and another medium tail (starting with the kick only -> DTR first generation) ;)
Thanks for the feedback Toop. I have both cranks, but they have the same "long" cone. One is for the TZR with the e-starter, the other is for an older "kick start" DT, the lenght is the same (at least for these both variants)...
But that would not explain my current problem, may be somebody wrecked the thread at that crank and "modified" it later for further use?
This story is strange to me ???
;)
Just another question: the ones who own a 4DP or 4TW: can you do a picture for me from the rectifier connector showning the position of the different cables (the 2 white, 1 red and 1 black ones)?
cheers
Juergen
Iv a 4dp
I 'll take a picture in the morning . (-P)
2 whites
1 red
1 black
Perfect, thank's a lot!
Update: have fitted a YZ125 rotor with a TZ stator. Settings in the Zeel have not changed..
That looks really neat
And I think the rev response should be much improved
Which model TZ did the rotor come from, and do you still have power for lighting now ?
Had a ride on Saturday. Bike feels more or less the same, no significant improvement in reving (as I didn't expected). The main reason for me is to help the crank bearing a bit reducing the mass of the rotor. The negative aspect of that mod is probably a bit less willingness for overrev (the dyno will tell...).
The rotor is from a Yamaha crosser YZ125, model year 2005. The stator is from a TZ250 model year 1989, the current setup creates only approx 10,5 Volt at 9000 rpm, so a bit less. The stator will get a different winding during wintertime to get close to 12,5 Volt.
That is one tiny rotor :) 10.5Volts with load or at idle? Maybe go for a Led rear light to safe some Watt as well...?
What monitoring setup (afr/egt) are you using? And why is the egt probe so far away from the piston or does it just look like it was more than 150mm?
Best regards!
Juergen
Could you pls. check what the code is on the rotor?
The rotor on my 4JT had a little crack.
I "borrowed" one for as long as I want, but would like to check if the YZ rotor can be used.
For the TZs they only sell as kit, rotor/stator/CDI, at looney price.
Second that (-P)
Iv know for ages a yz flywheel will fit on a tz but had no idea what years yz to look for .
Quote from: casal-fan on November 27, 2019, 10:13:56 AM
Juergen
Could you pls. check what the code is on the rotor?
The rotor on my 4JT had a little crack.
I "borrowed" one for as long as I want, but would like to check if the YZ rotor can be used.
For the TZs they only sell as kit, rotor/stator/CDI, at looney price.
I tried to find some pictures of the yz125 flywheel he used. The 05+ i don't recall any markings on the inside of the one off my 06 yz125. The pics i could find looked like the only marks i could find where on the outside.
@ Lorenz: the 10.5 Volt is with all lights switched on, all are changed to LED incl. the head light (what is not allowed in Germany :D).
The egt is 200 mm far away from the piston, the Lambda sensor 20 mm more. The reason was that I had that also on my 3XV as well my RZ. Futher more when I took out the bleeds from the exhaust pipe, I opend the pipe at the welding from the header to the cones. When looking into the header there was a light grey trace to be seen, potentially from fresh gas during the scavaging. I made some tests with a Lambda sensor at the 220mm and a second sensor at the silencer entance. For any reason there was no difference. May be the fresh gas trace runs only on the top of the exhaust duct...
@ Rui: the bike is together at the moment, I will take it apart during christmas time, so will do a pic then, ok? I think the important parameter (beside the geometric data) is the position of the leading edge of the lobe in relation to T.D.C. As this was the same on my setup, the static angle for the Zeel kept the same.
So here is a short update: I went onto the dyno to compare the power of the engine with the large (stock) TZR flywheel and the small TZ / YZ flywheel. There is no 1/10 of a HP more, but the overerv kept approx. the same. But the crank bearings will like the lower mass... :))
The bike also got her "orignial" bodywork painted back... Next is to put all the TZ stuff into the motor.
nice looking bike that u have there :-*