I've been living in the 3xv Forum since this past February. Learned a lot about these amazing bikes. Totally addicted and now ready to start my own project thread. Thanks to all of you who brought me this far. Very grateful. Hope you"ll hang with me.
I intend to resurrect an "R" model that was purchased from a USA dealer, taken directly to track days. WOT on 1.2km straights. After an entire summer (2018) tweaking its stock config and riding it as hard as possible, it gave up on 9/11. A rather profound date for us here in America. Diagnosis on the 3xv Forum was crank bearing failure. I now believe that is absolutely accurate.
The bike is currently, partially disassembled, but want to take it down completely, powder-coat frame/swing arm and upgrade all chassis bearings and seals. On to the engine:
Since the lock-up I have gathered a new SP crank (Thanks Andy @ Webb's), Wossner pistons/rings/wrist pins/circlips (Thanks jsnook), Martin77 ported "R" cylinders (Thanks, Martin for all your help. You know what I mean). The cylinders have been repaired, plated and diamond honed by "PowerSeal", all OEM engine seals, and a pattern gasket package.
Normally, these projects start at the beginning, but now that I've pulled the crank and can assess the damage of a blown bearing, I'd appreciate any opinions on what I found in the crankcase. (See attachments)
These gouges are not very deep and I believe could be sanded down. Is this a proper procedure? If not, please enlighten me before I go further towards reassembly.
Many more pics available. But, I'm doing this from my phone.
Thanks.
Steve
Steve ,
Looks like those score marks are not on the bearing mounting points ? More in line with the big end run. If so i'd Say smooth them over with sand paper, quick polish , and it will be fine ????
Good luck with the project
Andy
Yes, no problem to smooth that out a bit, Steve. I've had to do a couple of those myself over the years... Does the discolouration on the main bearing bearing recess suggest the main has been spinning a bit too? Hard to tell from the pics. The peg on the bearing should prevent that though really. Was the peg still in place and located properly? If so, may the discolouration is just heat from the bearing?
Thanks, boys. Your info brought great relief.
Sorry I didn't post better/more pics. I've included a few more here related to your comments and questions.
Andy - Yes. The gouges are only in the big end run.
Warwick - The crank was solidly mounted on its bearing pegs when I pulled the case. The discoloration matches that of the piston, cylinder and head of the LH cylinder. Both big end runs showed good oiling. You'll see that I was very fortunate, as the rod big-end looks as if it would have broken had I not pulled the clutch when it went off-song.
There appears to be a tear in the outer seal on the side of the bearing failure. Not sure if this is bad enough to consider it a cause, effect or irrelevant. I have new OEM seals on hand.
Its (-6.7C) here today. Better go fire up the heaters in the shop.
With the engine mostly disassembled, I was able to inspect the bearings and gear box. Only one real problem: The ball that's supposed to sit between clutch actuation shaft and the clutch hub innner plate interface was missing. As best as I could measure, it seems to be either a 3 or 4mm ball. Going to try to source that locally. All the bearings seemed solid, but plan on replacing the main output and balance shaft bearings. Here in the mid-west, USA I prefer Timkin or SKF brand. All the seals will be replaced. Nothing radically wrong, but many seals are leaking just a bit. After getting the motor mostly disassembled, I moved to the chassis.
I kept the wiring harness attached to itself and pulled it all as one unit. I plan on more wiring clean-up. I also pulled the rear brake system as one unit. My thinking is, "Why confuse things at this point? Keep it simple (as possible), stupid." Then I hit a big snag with the swing arm pivot. On another thread, Searick suggested tipping the bare frame on its side and applying lots of penetrating oil. I started that process last night. Rick rightly pointed out that, "the bike probably hadn't been taken down that far since it was in the factory." Plan on testing the pivot bolt by tapping the threaded end with a brass driver and steel hammer.
Here's a few pics from the last two sessions.
My first attention was obviously the swing-arm pivot seizure. The Kroil had soaked though to the other side of the pivot point, so confidence was high. I made a tool out of a 3" X 1/2" socket extension, wrapped in tape to sit down in the cavity of the pivot shaft. Hit it a few times...hard with a normal steel hammer. No Joy. Then, even though my "Spider-sense" was telling me this would be over-kill, used a sledge hammer. Still, No Joy. I had braced the alternate side with lumber, so that the frame casting around the pivot was supported. Nothing broken, but simple brute force isn't the way.
I proceeded to strip the rest of the chassis down to just the frame, swing-arm and triple clamps. I laid the bike back on its side, loaded it up with more Kroil. Will try again tomorrow, but no sledgehammer. Searick sent me a great link where in a frozen pivot bolt was removed with liquid nitrogen. I was thinking that because my bike is sitting overnight in cold workshop, perhaps heating the outer portion of the swing-arm pivot with a propane torch might help break things loose, then try the hammer again. Anyone try this method? Any reason not to try this?
I also thought of using a hydraulic press, but the rig I would have to build would be so complex, I might as well just take it to a machine shop. Pros would be cheaper and I'd only use my DIY press once.
I found some odd gouges deep inside the under portion of the swing-arm. This is not welding slag. Can someone identify what's happened in the past to have caused this?
Here's a few pics, but I didn't get any of the set up I was using to break the pivot seizure. Tomorrow.
Thanks.
Keep at it but i had to once on my 06 yz125 a few years into owning it. Literally cut the rear axle off to get it out. Blew me away cause I always grease the axle with anti seize and have had it off n on many times before.
I never noticed it before but brand new someone at the factory used a steel spacer for the inside of the hub. It should have been aluminium! Damn steel spacer rusted its self together with the steel bearing race surface.
This is probably what your fighting with.
I like your stand 8) Quite an improvement on mine! (-P)
Regarding the ballbearing, check if it's still inside the pushrod housing at the end of the pushrod, sometimes they get stuck there.
Good idea on the seals and bearings. Clean the internal oil pump filter on the gearbox plate while you're at it - it's just a simple metal screen inside the housing but often it has a lot of crap in it.
Not sure why the swingarm is so stuck, I've never had one that was stuck. Can't think what would be holding on to it really, the shaft sits on roller bearings inside the swingarm.. Some heat could be a good idea as you mentioned.
By the way no need to remember the bolt locations for the crank cover, the manual has the tightening/loosening order and sizing with the 2 stage torque process:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/Screen-Shot-2019-01-23-at-2.09.34-PM.md.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/SLn9)
Keep it up, pretty satisfying stripping the bike to the last bolt and bearing and rebuilding. Wouldn't want to do it with a modern bike!
Thanks, Guys. I need all the help and encouragement I can get. The replacement costs for the pivot shaft and internal bushings is about $200 on Megazip. I really want to avoid destroying those parts, just to solve this problem.
After reading the link you sent me, Rick, I have concluded that I just need some patience. Kroil, Heat, Bang. Repeat. Also, Rick, you might be right as to where the real problem is in my case, but I'm believing that the long bushing inside the swing arm is where its frozen. That said, the swing-arm does show some side play. I believe that means its not frozen at the bearings.
ybk - I did tap the clutch shaft housing on the bench, thinking the ball was just stuck. No Joy. Will check again.This motor had been apart..at least on the clutch side. I showed a pic of the balance shaft drive safety washer being previously bent, but what I didn't show was that someone carved their initials on the surface of the balance shaft drive gear. See pic. Yeah, I figured those crankcase bolts were universal. I wasn't worried that I couldn't remember where they went, more about precisely matching thread pitches. It shouldn't matter, perhaps OCD took over. Yes. On filter in tranny. I will jump back into the motor, while I wait out the swing-arm pivot. Rick pointed out that my bike probably hadn't been apart this far since the factory 28 years ago. Surprised others haven't encountered this problem. Rick sent me a link to a dirt-bike forum where this happens all the time. Every solution imaginable is in that thread. Including: Liquid Nitrogen. Let's hope I don't have to go that far.
Any clue on those gouges under the swing arm? It had to have happened after it was re-painted. It has never been down while I've had it.
I've never had one stuck like that Steve, but In view of it being so welded in place I'd be very surprised if the bearings and sleeve aren't rusted as the bearing faces and the needle rollers are the only points of contact in there. I took one apart recently that was an easy tap out and the bearing and sleeve were toast on one side.
Have you tried rigging up some kind of puller using a long bolt or threaded rod and some suitable spacers and nuts to try to draw the spindle out rather than bashing it?
The puller was going to be my next move, Warwick. Thanks. But, I just got it to break loose. Followed one of the dirt-bike tricks Rick sent me. What a relief. Much the same as breaking the primary drive nut. Better than sex? No. But, the anticipation of joy definitely lasted longer.
I got as far as the pictures show and stopped, as I don't have a drift sufficient to knock the pivot bolt all the way out. On my way to town right now. A brass drift is going to be a lot cheaper than a new pivot shaft and bushing.
Everyone working on these bikes should have Kroil and a propane torch.
Haha yeah satisfaction when you been battling it for a while!
Have you got some more pics of the gouges?
For ballbearing sizing see pic. At 6.35 it is still held lightly by the vernier, at 6.4 it falls.
ybk - Thanks. I've got a 36" X 3/8" inch socket extension that I've used for fork maintenance. Should get the swinger apart today. If it doesn't start to move with less effort, hammering, I'm tempted to make a puller as Warwick suggested. The threaded end of the pivot is a bit buggered (not mushroomed). Don't want to make it worse. Thinking of using an aluminum plug inserted between the socket extension and the thread end of the pivot. I should be able to rotate the shaft now that the closed end is available.
The precise measurement is very helpful. I tried with straight-edge and got 4mm. I definitely need a value-oriented caliper and torque wrench. Embarrassed to admit that I don't have good versions of those tools, now that the bike is almost dissembled. The OEM ball is only $0.10-$1.46 USD on Megazip, but the shipping is $23USD. Money better spent toward tools, I believe. Locally, my "go to" bearing shop does offer single balls (even ceramic), but they're measured in inches. Easy to convert. A bit odd, since they have all the other metric bearing I need, including the radial thrust bearings that will be mounted on the end of the swing arm.
I'll get some better pics of the gouges once the swing-arm is apart. Will appreciate your opinion.
Steve
Victory. The pivot bolt had been soaked in Kroil overnight. A bit more heat and it came out completely. The bushing also slid out with the help of vice grip (very light compression). Now, it got interesting, again. The steel thrust washers had molecularly bonded to the aluminum of swing arm pivot cavity. So, both SeaRick and Warwick were right in their long range diagnosis. Well done, boys. Thanks.
I had to break the washers with a diamond grinder on the Dremel, followed by a chisel. The bearing were so damaged by this process they fell apart and were relatively easy to get out. This past summer, while riding the bike, the suspension was working, but not nearly as intended. Excited to fix all this and ride a real 3xv.
ybk - Concerning the gouges under the swing-arm. It now looks obvious to me that there was some damage done to the bike down there...maybe in shipping. I can see that the weld bead has broken loose at the arrows in the pic titled "Swinger_Gouge". Must get a pro involved. Guessing its better to have the swinger blasted clean, first. All opinions on this situation and repair recommendations are welcome.
This session was a true bitch and shows what can happen when regular maintenance is ignored...specifically for those of us who bought used bikes, just gave a quick walk around, fresh fluids and then rode them. DON'T EXPECT ANY RESELLER TO GO TO THIS LEVEL OF PREPARATION BEFORE YOU BUY. In fact, find a guy like Rick who does these refurbs for a living, specifically if you don't feel qualified to tear it all apart before riding it in anger.
Here's a few picks of today's work.
Steve
Yes, a few more $$$s to spend there, Steve. But, as you say, at least things will be working properly once it's all made good. The repairs should certainly improve the handling a bit...
Have you stripped and checked the bearings and sleeves in the linkage too?
I can't really see what's happened with the swingarm from the pics above?
Are trying to say it has a cracked area on the swingarm?
Thanks for the quick response, guys.
Warwick - Checking the linkage bearings and seals are next. I'm sure the seals should be replaced. Based on the swinger, I'm betting the bearings, too. The linkage bolts all came out clean. Everything, except the weld spot, was in my budget planning. Sorry, but the pic of the weld damage is the best of the lot. There are clean breaks at the end of the bead. Very odd.
Rick - There is no evidence of a crack in the swing arm aluminum. The weld was broken off "clean" with the surrounding area gouged. Not deep, but obviously after it had been painted. We may be in bizzaro-world trying to figure how this could happen. A weld bead should not just break away from the underlying castings. I'm at a loss to explain. I have other pics, but this one is the best, I believe.
My plan is to get it welded up and move on. Any reason to be more concerned?
Thanks, again.
Steve
Must have been some water in the swingarm pivot for a long time..glad you got it out.
That swingarm looks normal to me, they have some gaps in the welding if I recall correctly (ie, it's not welded to be a sealed unit)..
Thanks, Ybk. Yes. After looking closely at the other side where it's welded, it's obvious my issue is not as it should be.
I will proceed to blasting the swing arm clean and seek an aluminum welding specialist. I have a client that can offer such services, will take one-off jobs, but isn't cheap.
I'm taking the frame and swinger to blasters tomorrow.
Now that the bike is mostly apart, I'm going to ask for opinions on an earlier discovery.
When I was taking the clutch apart, I discovered that the drive hub had a significant amount of free play. The video shows how far it could be turned before moving the engine internals in either direction.
With the bike mostly disassembled, this would be a good time to address this issue, assuming this needs addressing. I only noticed any drive-line lash while riding, when the bike was bucking a bit a low throttle, leaving or coming back to the paddock. Once the carburation was cleaned up, this "lash" was no longer noticeable.
I cannot see anything in the gearbox that would cause this kind of "free play", but again, this may be normal. When running, the bike shifted easily and smoothly with only a noticeable "clunk" on initial engagement coming out of neutral.
All opinions are welcomed.
Thanks.
Hi there mate, I don't think this freeplay is a problem. It is not a freeplay. You should be able to turn it all around countless times me thinks. It's the outside basket that has the gear. If both the hub and the basket turned together there would be constant mesh, not clutch. I just woke up from a night shift, so maybe I'm completely wrong, some others will help set the matter straight! :-)
Cheers, Fanis
Dog gears engagement mate ?:-| ?:-| ?:-|
Dont know if there is any gears on the 3XV box that "bypass" the dog gears so that only mesh gears engage, (don´t think so)
Not a problem, just how the gerabox is built I´d say, but please notice this is only my opinion
Someone with more knowledge then me on the subject will probably shim in soon and clarify.
By the way, in the USA, there are repports of people reducing the number of dogs by half on the RD/RZ350 gearbox, together with superfinish and machining of the shift "star" leading to absurd low ignition cut of time for changing gear - practically seemless shift.
Casual Fan. Thanks. I've just returned from my shop and discovered you are absolutely right. The engine was obviously still in gear from my trying to get the primary drive nut free. Pretty embarrassed to have asked that question. I've been riding bikes with sequential transmissions for 45 years. Just haven't had the clutch that far apart since my dirt-bike days. Thanks again.
I've just been in the tranny, as you must take the gear clusters out of the casing to pull the internal oil filter. One of the three screws that holds the filter housing must be addressed at an angle if the gears are still in place. If not, it might be stripped. Don't ask how I know. (See Pic) I say all that to comment on your mention of modifying the engagement dogs for faster shifting. Very intriguing idea. The RZ-350 was the last 2T street legal bike imported to the US. The boys that have them bought them at a reasonable price. Glad to hear a bit of American engineering creativity is still churning. While I'm not able to afford such a mod at the moment, further intel would be interesting.
For those in position to dig into the tranny case, please check the oil filer. ybk encouraged me to do so. He was right. The screens were mucked up. Pic attached. Yes, that a insect.
It's Sunday here. Did some clean-up more than process, but did discover a slight lash in some of the gears on the splines of the transmission shafts. I have no intention of replacing the gears nor spined shafts. The bike shifted beautifully since the first ride.
Cleaned main drive sprocket. It's worn a bit. Tempted to go with 14/39. Non-O-Ring chain. Aluminum rear sprocket. Opinions?
Included a new pic. My wife found this low-depth gavinized steel pan that has become my working benchtop surface. Highly recommended for strength and contolling spills.
The frame goes to blasting tomorrow.
A new chain and sprockets always feels nice. I generally go for 15/38 final drive myself. A little taller than stock, so a smidge more top speed, and so long as you have a bit more grunt than stock it's a good base setting I reckon.
TZ rear sprockets are a straight bolt-on when you open up the mounting bolts from 8 to 10 mm so plenty of options there. The front is a pretty common Yam fitment type, so again, no problem sourcing the size you want. Non O ring chains are ideal for the track I reckon - cheaper, and might give you half a HP at the rear wheel too.
A good non oring chain would be good i have always used DiD ert2 gold on my dirt bikes. But when i was rebuilding my tzm 150 i found that RK chains where listed with higher tensile strength over DiD and most of the other common brands.
I went with a non oring on it since it uses a little 428 on the 150 i wanted the strongest chain i could get. The RK top of the line chain is the mk4z it's a gold link chain.
I got a little over 350 miles on it now and other than the initial stretch it has been holding up good. I'm sure the 520 is even better.
Quote from: Steveog on January 26, 2019, 11:36:37 PM
..
I've just been in the tranny, as you must take the gear clusters out of the casing to pull the internal oil filter. One of the three screws that holds the filter housing must be addressed at an angle if the gears are still in place. If not, it might be stripped. Don't ask how I know.
The gear clusters can easily be separated from the plate, just pull the shafts that hold the selector forks and then the gears, everything should just slide out (-P) A bit easier to work with the plate by itself.
Regarding gearing, on a stock bike I went down a tooth in front to lower the gearing slightly. If the straights aren't too long then it's nicer than stock gearing. With a derestricted bike I would go with higher gearing like Warwick suggested. Especially if you're a faster rider on a track with a long straight (>1km?). I'm dog slow so I like the extra acceleration from lower gearing.
Good Afternoon, Gents. Thanks for your continued insight and advice.
I just took my frame and swinger to the blaster/powder guy this morning. We are fortunate to have 3 such shops in our town. These guys aren't cheap, but will get the swinger welded up for only an additional $20 USD. Budget getting stretched, but new chain and sprockets seem like a "must do" situation. Having an endless chain fitted is not something I want to do later.
Warwick - If I successfully rebuild the bike with the mods I have planned, it should run a lot stronger. Hoping for 60hp. So, a 15/38 sounds good. My thinking concerning shorter gearing was that it would bring ratios closer (slightly). I often found that with the "old set-up", I was a needing more over-rev in 2nd or a closer ratio 3rd. I'm guessing I can tune it with the Zeel and be happier with a bit taller gearing, but going with the -00 box on run-in and maybe even the first track day. Yes. I was going to source TZ parts for drive gearing. Glad to hear so much support for a non-o-ring chain. I remember putting a new chains on dirt bikes made a noticeable, positive change in performance.
Also, I'm going with Dunlop Q3+ Tyres. Stock sizing. I know many of you are Pirelli fans, but I have the new Dunlops, already.
Rick - Appreciate your opinions on chains. I hadn't decided on a brand. RK sounds good. I've used those before. The only chains that ever failed were the stock DID 428 types that came on my FZR-400. After being stranded...twice, I installed a 520 conversion kit.
ybk - Thanks. I've been examining the gears with the shafts off the backing plate. (seen in my last posted photo). I really don't want to tear in to the gear-selector mechanisms, but in order to replace the bearings on the shift shaft (which feel worn), looks as if I have no choice.
Concerning my need for gearing. I'm the fastest 68 year old guy at all the the Track Days. HA. I have fun with the 1000's and 600's in the corners. I'm competitive in Novice Class and haven't been pulled aside by a coach for a "friendly lecture"...yet. That said, once I price the drive package, I might get a 14 tooth counter-shaft sprocket, just in case.
New question: I'm confused by the parts manual concerning the use of radial thrust bearing on the SP model. The book shows no shim between the outer edge of the swing arm bearing and radial thrust bearing. Then no shim before the outer seal housing. I have a pic from Andy Bush's thread that shows his SP bearings and there are shims. Please advise. There is enough clearance for 2 X 2mm Shims and 1 X 2mm thrust bearings on each side of the swing-arm pivot.
Back to the shop guys. Last nice day before a major cold spell is due. Thanks again.
You got me wondering too.
So...I checked the R model swing arm I have here, that's just come out my bike.
217mm across the swingarm. That's with no end caps or shims
Shims fitted were 4mm on the left and 3mm on the right, plus the end caps each end
Now the SP swing arm .
217mm across the swingarm
4mm on the left (thrust pack 1+2+1)
4mm on the right
Plus the end caps each end
Only 1mm difference, so I guess the SP is going to be snug fit in the frame.
Hope this helps
Andy
Thanks, Andy. Very helpful for you to take the time to measure this out for me. I believe I'll go for it. As we discussed in your "Real SP" thread, my bearing supply people can get the radial thrust bearings and shims. They don't charge me shipping if the order is of certain USD amount. I'm going to be getting several bearings, so the cost for the thrust bearings won't be big gamble.
Good luck to us both.
Quote from: Steveog on January 28, 2019, 09:08:35 PM
I really don't want to tear in to the gear-selector mechanisms, but in order to replace the bearings on the shift shaft (which feel worn), looks as if I have no choice.
New question: I'm confused by the parts manual concerning the use of radial thrust bearing on the SP model. The book shows no shim between the outer edge of the swing arm bearing and radial thrust bearing. Then no shim before the outer seal housing. I have a pic from Andy Bush's thread that shows his SP bearings and there are shims. Please advise.
The gear selector drum stays put, you can just pull just the forks and 2 gear clusters. It's really easy to put back together - just slide the gear clusters with the forks as a unit back into the plate (without the fork shafts). Then just ensure the forks are seated on the drum's grooves and put the fork shafts back. They 'find' themselves again in the correct layout. You can do a quick gear check before final assembly to make sure all gears can be selected. (just make a note or take pictures where each fork go, they are different)
The manual is not super clear about the shim layout :
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/shims.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/SPzb)
The green circle denotes the SP shims and bearing but the manual drawing shows them as a combined unit.
Weird that you are getting different widths on the two R thrust washers, Andy. Parts book gives the same part number each side? I've got an R swinger out at the moment too, so will check what's in mine tomorrow if I get a minute. I was planning to look at the feasibility of radial rollers in that one when I put it back together too and assumed I would just try to source some suitable bearings the same overall width as the washers if possible.
Ybk - Yes. I've discovered what you're advising about the shifter and tranny. Thanks. I've since pulled the shift shaft and after several "test fits" have decided that the shaft bearing must be replaced. Too much "slop". The big bearing are in great shape. Only the seals need replacing.
Pulling that tiny needle bearing in the shift rod cavity brings a challenge. Going to my bearing guys for a solution. A tiny puller, maybe.
I'm also experimenting with feeler gauge material to tighten up the shift-shaft bushing. This is an old trick used to tighten up suspension forks. Same principle, but much tighter tolerances.
Also, your insight on reading the parts book is invaluable. No wonder I was confused. Big help.
Warwick - I'm willing to be the guinea pig on this thrust bearing mod. However, your input is important, as always. It just seems that, "it must work if the swing arm and frame for the SP and R are the same dimensions". Thanks.
I'm facing brutal cold here for the next few days. Good test for my Shop's insulation and radiant heat. That said, "If I end up like Nicholson at the climax of "The Shining", I'm hoping someone will finish what I've started." My wife will gladly sell you the pieces.
Quote from: Warwick on January 29, 2019, 12:24:23 AM
Weird that you are getting different widths on the two R thrust washers, Andy. Parts book gives the same part number each side? I've got an R swinger out at the moment too, so will check what's in mine tomorrow if I get a minute. I was planning to look at the feasibility of radial rollers in that one when I put it back together too and assumed I would just try to source some suitable bearings the same overall width as the washers if possible.
Measured mine both at 4mm. Maybe one of yours was worn, Andy?
Not worn, just the wrong item.....or in my case items. The 3mm side was actually two shims, so I'm guessing this isn't how yamaha intended ! Swingarm is powder coated, so will have been apart before.
Quote from: Andy Bush on January 29, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Not worn, just the wrong item.....or in my case items. The 3mm side was actually two shims, so I'm guessing this isn't how yamaha intended ! Swingarm is powder coated, so will have been apart before.
Ah, got ya. Bonkers, innit? Imagine going to the trouble of powder coating the arm and then lashing it back in with whatever washers you happened to have kicking about... ::)
Twill all be sorted with a nice thrust bearing upgrade ????
Quote from: Andy Bush on January 30, 2019, 12:36:14 AM
Twill all be sorted with a nice thrust bearing upgrade ????
Yeah, ordered a pair of AXK2542 4mm needle roller jobbies today. Hopefully they will do the job as a straight replacement for the R type washers. Find out when they arrive... I have a knackered knuckle bearing & bush to replace too. All adds up, dunnit?! :o >:(
Thanks for your mutually benificial research, guys. Very helpful for my project, too. As I said before, I will source radial thrust bearings and shims locally.
We can compare results following installations.
Going to the "Frozen Shop" tomorrow. Trying to remove the shift-shaft bearing. Thinking that nature is now cooling the bearing in question to below (0-F) (soaked in Kroil for the past 36 hours) will cause it to free up. I'm hoping heat on the aluminum carrier will help pull it out.
Thanks again for all your help with swing-arm thrust bearing question.
Assuming I haven't been clear, this is the bearing that need replacing. Spoke with the bearing pros. Their puller felt a bit big for this job, plus it was $140USD. Not a good investment. I have a DIY solution in mind.
Will share if successful on the extraction, if not I can read the numbers on the bearing for an American cross-match, should I need to break it free with more medieval methods.
Steve
Is that bearing worn out? I've never really had to replace that one, even on knackered engines. As far as I remember the bearing isn't listed in the part manual so you'll have to get it somewhere else. I found the gear shift linkages develop slack pretty easy which I think is the main source of problems. On my 10000km bike the joint on the shaft clamp is already loose. I usually weld them at the back which removes quite a bit of slack from the whole shifting action.
QuoteYeah, ordered a pair of AXK2542 4mm needle roller jobbies today. Hopefully they will do the job as a straight replacement for the R type washers. Find out when they arrive... I have a knackered knuckle bearing & bush to replace too. All adds up, dunnit?! :o >:(
Warwick are sure about that part number? I entered it into Megazip and a washer for a Subaru came up. When going to '91 SP parts diagram (posted by ybk), I got 933-42225-18-00 for the Thrust bearing. Did I miss something? Thanks.
AXK2542 is the generic bearing id number, Steve, not the Yam Part number.
I've taken a punt on these with the AS2542 washers to see if they will do the job:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXK2542-Needle-Roller-Cage-with-2-AS2542-Washers-25x42x4mm/192003528913?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170920101022%26meid%3D0ac3b6cfac8f45e49f5f8077458f84db%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D190372606178%26itm%3D192003528913&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109
Should arrive by the weekend, so I should be able to assess their suitability then... ?:-|
I put the new IKO TA2525z swinger bearings in today. They are exactly the same bearings that Yamaha put in at the factory, but without the Yam oe parts price tag 8).
These are the thrust bearings I got
They look like they'll do the job, don't they. 1mm+2+1 yeah? Let us know how they look when offered up if you get to them before the weekend, Andy? It'll save me the antici...pation... ;D
My (I presume) factory-fitted R swinger sleeve bearings were located a mm or two inboard of the end of my swinger hub. I've fitted the new ones flush with the end of the hub end as I reckon the bearing end will give the radial bearing shim support that way ?:-|.
I get it Warwick/Andy. Yes, the R swinger has its primary bearing recessed slightly. I know, as I had to chisel out the stock washer/spacer. I'm confident this will allow the new radial needles and shims to fit.
OEM prices for the parts are not bad, but shipping is absurd. Like you guys, I'll source, locally.
Andy - I'm with Warwick. Looking forward to your report.
Thanks to you both.
Steve
PS - It was -2F here today. (Too lazy to do a Celsius calculation, plus its cocktail time) It's f**king cold. My new insulation and heating did the job keeping me comfortable, but handling bare metal made the session a short one. No progress pulling the shift-shaft bearing. It will be 60F by Saturday. Hoping to make some progress by then.
My take-a-chance-on-me (like ACME but more experimental :))) thrust bearings were waiting for me when I got in from work today. Speedy delivery there from Bolton Engineering Products! (-P).
Looks like they will work out fine 8). The washer-bearing-washer put together as a bearing pack are the same dimensions as the original solid thrust washer and fit on the shaft and in the end cup seals neatly. The proof of the pudding will be when it all goes back together of course, but it looks good so far.
The line up pic below shows L to R: A three part bearing pack, then the oe washer, then the three individual parts of the bearing separated.
The end view shows the or R model washer (right) and the alternative bearing stack (left) widths. Don't have calipers to hand and it's snowing outside so I'm not going out to get 'em, but they look more-or-less identical - close enough as should make no difference in any case O0.
Thanks, Warwick. ACME. Very funny. Great details and demo pics. Looking forward to your test-fit. It has to work. I'll take your part number to my local guys. I have the dimensions and now good pictures to show if they can't match directly.
Very Helpful.
Added later: Just contacted Bolton via email. Perhaps they are less restricted than bike specific shops with shipments to the US.
One of the reasons I posted the link was that it mentioned overseas postage, Steve. If it's a problem for them direct (can't see why it would be. It'd only be small airmail package?) and you can't source locally (I'd imagine you will be able to as they are a common bearing), I'd be happy to forward a pair to you.
With the caveat that we haven't definitively ascertained that they will work in practice yet of course.
The R swingarm only uses one washer per side though? That would make the SP stack much wider than the R setup? (I'm probably missing something..)
The oe R thrust washer is 4mm thick though, Karl - as is the total thickness of the 3 part bearing above (1mm washer - 2mm bearing - 1mm washer) - see pics. Logically it should work fine as a little R/RS model upgrade I reckon.
We'll know more when one of us gets round to actually fitting an arm with the alternative bearing back in the frame of course :).
ha yeah :-[ of course I'll see myself out now :P
I'll get a set for my RS as well. (-P)
Warwick - Yes. Thanks for the link to Bolton. I tried to source the exact thrust bearing through my local experts, but that brand didn't show up. I know they have the 4mm thrust washer stack, as I had the counter man source their suppliers.
Thanks for the offer to forward the AXK2542 bearing. Also, very kind to test it all out beforehand.
ybk - HA. Finally, I know your real name.
Work in the shop today wasn't too productive, did what I could cleaning parts, but I can't really use volatile cleaning products in a closed environment, heated occasionally with an open Propane Flame.
I do have a new question. The shift-shaft exits the left side of the case through a needle bearing and seal. It is very sloppy. I have the seal, but can't find it in the parts diagrams on Megazip. I can read the info on the bearing. Anybody have an OE part number for the bearing: IKO G6 Japan TL A12127. I'm sure you all know where this bearing is, but I attached a pic of it.
That bearing is not listed as an individual part in the parts book, Steve. Probably because they don't generally wear or need replacement. As Karl said, are you sure it's really worn? Needle rollers always feel loose when they have no shaft in them to load them. Unless there is physical damage or clear signs of wear to the rollers, it may well be fine to leave it as it is? It spends its entire life in an oil bath after all. If you really want to replace it though, you should be able to source the bearing in the US (ebay or whatever) using the IKO bearing number. Note that the bearing id is TLA1212Z though, not 7
If the bearing itself doesn't look physically damaged, replacing the seal alone will give the shaft a nicer, tighter feel. You should be able to find a good quality generic suitable seal online too I'd think? Just measure the dimensions and punch the numbers in. I'm sure there will be plenty of outlets like Simply Bearings: https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/login.php in the US? If not, the UK site offers pricing in US $ so I'd imagine they will ship to you? I ordered a pair of seals from them yesterday afternoon in fact and they arrived this morning, so they are pretty sharp. If you'd rather pay a bit more for a seal in a little Yamaha parts bag, the seal part number is 93102-12106. It's a common seal, so should be easily sourced.
Understand your point Warwick, but while many of the bearing in the engine are good to go, the shift shaft bearing is obviously "sloppy" and must "go" (IMHO). I loosely reinstalled the cassette plate and ran the shift shaft back throuh the case to make this judgement. Just guessing, but it wiggled, maybe 1mm in either direction, but that means a total of 2mm slop.
There is a similar bearing for the clutch actuation shaft. It has an OE Number.
I'm not disputing you or Karl's knowledge, but as we've discovered with the swing-arm pivot, there are things about this bike that are odd by normal standards.
I already have the Yamaha OE seal. I bought it with several other pieces, so the shipping of a single tiny piece isn't quite a stupid as it could have been.
Appreciate your tips on getting stuff cheaper, as my budget window gets closer to closing.
Also, thanks for correcting the bearing ID number. Big help. Yes. I can probably get this bearing locally. Just wanted validation that the OE part did not exist.
Looking forward to getting the frame and swinger back from my blaster/powder guy, tomorrow.
Will post pics.
Thanks, again
Steve
Quote from: ybk on January 30, 2019, 07:45:41 AM
Is that bearing worn out? I've never really had to replace that one, even on knackered engines. As far as I remember the bearing isn't listed in the part manual so you'll have to get it somewhere else. I found the gear shift linkages develop slack pretty easy which I think is the main source of problems. On my 10000km bike the joint on the shaft clamp is already loose. I usually weld them at the back which removes quite a bit of slack from the whole shifting action.
Sorry I missed your comment. I have no explanation why my shift shaft bearing would be so sloppy. Do you believe 2mm (guessing) movement at the bearing is OK? (I'll try to get some actual measurements and video.) The seal there was weeping (not leaking, per se'). It seems that the lateral force coming from the shift shaft would cause wear for everyone at that bearing. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you or Warwick. Your experiences with these bikes is far greater than mine. If I'm just being overly cautious, I certainly don't want to spend unnecessary money.
Thanks for the tip on the linkage. Mine is very sloppy on both ends. Yours is a simple, inexpensive fix.
Thanks for all your help, Karl.
So what's the bearing info if it's not listed as a separate part from Yamaha?
Rick - This is stamped on the bearing: IKO G6 Japan TL A1212Z. I have yet to get to the shop today. Plan on measuring the free play and shoot some video.
Thanks.
Steve
Quote from: SeaR1ck on February 01, 2019, 07:42:52 PM
So what's the bearing info if it's not listed as a separate part from Yamaha?
Do you mean the 'TLA1212Z' bearing id number, Rick?
Does it give dimensions on the race surface? Or just the bearing number for that manufacture.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on February 01, 2019, 09:11:29 PM
Does it give dimensions on the race surface? Or just the bearing number for that manufacture.
Different manufacturers seem to use their own variations of a generic bearing code system sometimes - google 'bearing codes' for plenty of guides. In the case of the IKO bearing above, the '1212' bit refers to the internal diameter (12mm) and the depth (12mm) - OD is 18mm on those bearings. Yamaha seem to have used a lot of IKO bearings on the 3XV (-P).
I throw myself on the mercy of the court. There's no way the shift shaft has 2mm slop, sorry for wasting time by guessing. That said, there is free-play, which seems excessive to me, but am open to correcting my opinion.
The angle from above was taken with a stable camera. The angle with the measuring tape has a bit of camera movement, but should provide the demo I was after.
Warwick. Obviously, no seal was in place, so your suggestion that a seal might tighten-up the shaft's action seems on-target. The shaft also might be moving enough to cause an early seal failure. Also, thanks for explaining the bearing codes. Good new info.
I have a bearing removal kit, warned my wife I might need the oven and I will replace the counter-shaft bearing and seal. Should I go for this shift-shaft bearing, too?
Thanks to all.
Steve
^^ That play is normal I'd say. I'm busy stripping a spare motor that's never been apart with only 6000km and it has the same amount of play. I would concentrate on the the gear lever linkages.
Understood, Karl. My bike came with 19K on the clock. Its surprisingly in good shape, internally.
Your advice is a bit of a relief. Saving time and money is always good.
First track day is now booked for April 20. I've a long way to go. At least the weather is giving me a break (10C today 15.6C by Monday).
Thanks, again.
Steve
I test-fitted the swingarm with the radial bearings in place of the oe thrust washers today. Only a test fit, but I torqued it up to the manual settings and... Yep, all seems perfectly fine 8). Nice smooth movement of the arm, so unless something odd turns up later, I think we can confirm that the radial bearing upgrade is a winner for the R/RS :).
I even did a little phone video of me wafting the arm up and down, but it seems it's too big to upload. Nothing lost though, it wasn't going to be troubling the Oscars jury... ;D
I'll double the upload size then try again?
Would be interesting to compare the movement to the stock washer only setup? (Is it much smoother..)
Warwick are you building a new road bike or just freshning up? :)
Ha. Warwick, I spent 45 years in motion picture and TV production and I still suck, occasionally. Thanks for the update. I believe I'll order the thrust bearings from your source.
While on the general subject of swing-arm bearings, remember the trouble I had extracting the pivot shaft, bushing and thrust washers? Well. I started cleaning the parts today. I believe the pivot shaft bushing is FUBAR'd. The bearing on one side had rusted into hardened metal of the bushing. Both thrust washers simply fell out of the end cap/seal. The thrust washers did not cause the problem, as I had origially thought. It was the bearing that had also molecularly bonded to the aluminum of the arm itself. My rear suspension was only working with the pivot shaft moving in the bushing. FOOK.
I've posted a few pics of today's discovery. Opinions welcome, but I don't see how I can use the bushing. Yamaha wants $75USD on Megazip (not including postage). Thinking that a local machine shop can make this bushing. It looks as if the bushing's contact surface had been chromed, but I'm suspecting high tensile stainless would make a good substitute.
All ideas welcome.
Quote from: ybk on February 02, 2019, 09:33:27 PM
I'll double the upload size then try again?
Would be interesting to compare the movement to the stock washer only setup? (Is it much smoother..)
Warwick are you building a new road bike or just freshning up? :)
Well it's certainly smoother than when I took it apart - but the main roller bearing and the bearing sleeve on one side were toast... :))
To be honest I doubt there is much difference between this set-up and a clean, freshly greased R type thrust washer set up as the bolting force runs through the main bearing sleeve really. It just feels a nicer way to do it, and one of my thrust washers would have needed replacing in any case, so why not?
Stuck the vid on YouTube (hopefully): https://youtu.be/fHNlEifbGG0 (https://youtu.be/fHNlEifbGG0)
I'm doing a full rebuild/refresh on a road-going 92R. It won't be anything fancy in the aesthetics/bling department. All the spending will be going on the motor and the chassis 8). It's likely to be slow going though, and I doubt I'll find the time/energy to do a project thread, sadly.
I should stop hijacking Steve's project thread too really. Sorry Steve! :-[.
Yes, your sleeve is goosed, Steve. $75 sounds about right for the new one. I'd just bite the bullet, personally. Mine cost around £60 in the UK when I bought one a couple of weeks ago. Link here: Dennis will doubtless ship you one to the States if you ask him:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-TZ250-96-00-Swing-Arm-Bush-Gen-Yam-New/401600915115?hash=item5d8147a6ab:g:O6IAAMXQZdFRHsLW:rk:6:pf:0
No idea if that would be any cheaper than Megazip though. Have you Tried Boats.net?
You'll need to replace the sleeve bearings too of course. They are: IKO TA2525Z if you can't read the codes on yours. A common bearing so you should be able to get them locally if you don't want to pay Mr. Yamaha's prices (-P).
Warwick. No issue on adding to my thread. In, fact I got it all revved up by commenting about Andy's radial needle thrust bearing. Its all good.
Thanks for the adding parts sources and giving me the swing-arm bearing part numbers. I posted a picture of them earlier in this thread. They looked like Hillary Clinton's phones. There's no way to read either one. I was going to take the cage and a needle to my local guys and hope they could figure it out. Now, with the generic part number things should be much easier. I added the pic here for shock factor.
Yeah. I probably should get the OE bushing from Yamaha. Its pretty specific.
I got into cleaning/inspecting the rear suspension linkage. They all have play similar to the shift shaft, but one is very dirty. Thinking about pulling the bearings out for a closer look. Of course, that means seals.
As usual, thanks for your intel and guidance. Getting answers so quickly is keeping me centered.
Karl - You were right. The shift linkage needs tightening. Thinking of drilling and tapping to do the deed, as I don't have a welding device and getting a pro involved for that little piece doesn't seem too cost effective. I've got the tap and hex head appropriate to the task.
Enjoy what left of your weekend, guys.
The linkage bearings and seals are all easily and relatively cheaply available common parts. The sleeves are a bit more expensive if they need replacing - especially one of them at £30-40 in the UK, as it's only used on the 3XV and one of the 90s TZs. The others are cheaper as they are used on a larger range of bikes. The more expensive one being of course the one I needed to replace... ::)
The seals your can order from measurement, and the bearings are IKOs with the id numbers clearly stamped on the ends. If you find yours are indecipherable, shout up and and I'll dig the numbers out for you (-P).
Yes. I've decided to pull and inspect the linkage bearings. One seal shows a slight tear. I plan to replace them all. Let's hope the bearings are just dirty and not knackered.
The chrome on the outer most part of one of the sleeves shows some rust, but I'm wondering if that isn't just residue from the bearing. The bike has only been ridden on a wet track once, since I've had it.
Will know more this afternoon.
Can speak with my local bearing guys tomorrow.
Thanks much for your advice and offer to help with the parts.
Steve
Steve, I swapped out a standard R swingarm for a SP swingarm on my bike a while back. While mine came apart much easier than yours, it looked much the same. I had to source all new parts as well. Including pivot shaft, bearings, sleeve, dust caps, etc. went new on everything. I didn't know about ACME bearings ^-^ so I bought everything new from Yamaha. Pricey, but piece of mind. Had to do it. Still have old R swinger kicking around. I thought my buddy with the RZ350 was going to buy it and use it on his RZ, but I guess it would have taken too much effort to make it fit.
We have R&D Motorsports local here that specializes in M/C transmissions. Mark is a drinking buddy and does all my transmissions. Certainly not cheap, and I appreciate your budget, but if your gearbox needs some love, he's excellent.
Thanks for your offer to help, Jim. My tranny is in good shape. I am curious about the RD mod Andy B. mentioned wherein engagement dog are creatively removed and speed shifter settings make the tranny work almost as that of a seem-lees gear box. Probably can't afford such a mod, just wanted to know how it all worked.
I'll replace the counter-shaft bearing, just because I know its been the most heavily loaded for 28 years and there's a trace of rust on the counter-shaft.
My swinger and frame are with the blasting/coating guys right now. I'm getting the pivot shaft bushing and one end cap from Yamaha. The other end Cap is in good shape. As I discussed with Warwick, those parts are pretty specifics. The pivot shaft was slightly corroded, but a sanding sponge cleaned that up nicely. The swing-arm needle bearings are obviously needing replacement. I'll source all the bearing, locally. The counter-shaft, shift shaft, clutch actuation, suspension linkage and PV seals will all be replaced.
Yes. Money is always an issue, but at this point, investing in this bike seems ignorant if done with too much penny-pinching. Not to mention I owe you for pistons and rings when they arrive. Its all good and thanks again for offering up your local tuner.
Please take a look at the picture. This is the seal that separates the transmission oil from water pump impeller and coolant flow. From past experience, I know the oil should not be this color and probably indicates a leaking seal. The impeller shaft was not sloppy in its bushing. Can one of you guys validate my opinion? I tried to pull that seal, but the usual stuff wasn't working. I plan to replace it, but don't want to damage the surrounding run of aluminum by getting too rough with the seal. Any tips?
I have removed and tested all the rear suspension linkage bearings and pleased they all move freely on their pivot shafts. Only needing new seals.
Do you have a favorite grease for re-assembly of the rear suspension? I normally use white lithium grease.
That's it for the day.
Thanks for any help or comments you can offer.
Steve
Yeah I would replace the seal, they're not too expensive. I do them on all motors that end up on the bench. I usually heat up the surrounding area with a torch then just wedge it out with a gigantic flat screwdriver.
Yamaha recommends molybdenum grease for the linkages for its hard wearing properties:
https://www.amazon.com/Yamalube-ACC-MOLDM-GS-10-Molybdenum-Disulfide-Grease/dp/B005XA2EQK
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/Screen-Shot-2019-02-05-at-12.47.53-PM.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/Sap2)
The 3xvA/B workshop manual I find a bit more useful since it has extra information thats not in the 3xv1/2 one. Most of the RS stuff is universal to the R's.
By the way, the 3YL TZ uses the same shift shaft bearing we were discussing before, the part number is available in the TZ manual if you still want to replace it, part number 93317-21236. Interestingly the 4DP uses a solid bush which probably takes out the slack quite a bit at the expense of movement..
Info courtesy of Yuri with his encyclopedic knowledge of Yamaha parts 8) :)
Thanks, Karl. As always, great info. By extension, thanks to Yuri, too.
I soaked the water pump seal in Kroil, but will proceed to heat it up tomorrow. It took a bit of propane torching to free up the rear suspension linkage bearings.
Heat and Kroil (sounds like a progressive Rock Band) were the only thing that broke through the swingarm "fusion syndrome".
If I decide to replace the shift-shaft bearing, I believe I can source it, locally. However, having the part number from a TZ for cross reference is a big help.
Balancing expenses at this point is the challenge, but the deeper I get, the more logical it seems to fix everything...now. With these unique bikes and parts becoming more rare, as we speak, a thoroughly refreshed machine would seem a good investment. I'm sure I'm not the first one here to reach this: "WTF" point of view.
Just ordered the MdS Yamagrease.
Back to the pic. Is this seal failure to be a expected after 28 years of duty? I would think so, but I'm only approaching my first anniversary with the 3xv. Some of you have been at this for more than a decade.
Willingness to share that knowledge with me is quite profound and deeply appreciated.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on February 05, 2019, 03:16:14 AM
Balancing expenses at this point is the challenge, but the deeper I get, the more logical it seems to fix everything...now.
Steve
Amen (-P)
Took the day yesterday off for some steroid injections. As Indiana Jones said, "Its not the age, it the mileage". In my case its both.
OK. Here's some more pleasant updates.
Got the water pump impeller seal out (thanks Karl). Its a complex three banded affair that acts much like a bearing. For those of you needing to dig this guy out, be very careful to not use the edge of the water pump housing as a lever for prying...unless you protect the aluminum first. I used one of the seals from the suspension linkage as a guard.
Kudos to Warwick for turning me on to "Simply Bearings". Website easy to navigate and pricing is more than competitive. Have several seals in the cue basket right now. Will complete the order right after this post.
Also, just picked up the frame and swing-arm from powder-coating guys. Very happy. The repair to the weld on the swing-arm is seamless and they didn't charge me for this third-party service.
Pics attached.
That finish looks real nice 8)
Thanks, Karl. Its a satin black, textured in the power-coat, not looking though to the sandblasting. Not cheap, but far better than the paint some one slapped on the chassis just to sell it. The first couple of times I took off the tank, the dreaded 3xv vacuum petcock dripped on the frame beams and streaked the paint. Never again. I now have an RGV tap and this surface won't streak.
Now, let's hope the reassembly looks as good.
Steve
Not much progress today, but waiting on many items such as bearing and seals. In the meantime, thanks to a kind, but weird small businessman, I was able to break the bond of a couple of phillips-head screws anchoring the counter-shaft and balance-shaft bearings.
He lent me a hand-help impact-tool that (after heating) broke right through the Red Lock-tight. Now, I can pull the bearings, have my local shop measure them and replace with higher quality stuff. No, they didn't have cross-references for Toyo numbers, even though they sell that brand. They seemed confident that they can match if measured.
Started the tedious task of cleaning and scraping the old sealant from all surfaces. Will move next to cleaning up the L/H bearing runs while waiting on parts.
As one of our friends had so perfectly stated, "It's always fucking something".
I've discovered what many of you already know. There is no such thing as a "finished" 3xv.
One last note for this day, "May you all be blessed with wives who try their best to understand."
Steve
As one of our friends had so perfectly stated, "It's always fucking something".
I've discovered what many of you already know. There is no such thing as a "finished" 3xv.
One last note for this day, "May you all be blessed with wives who try their best to understand."
That fits perfectly and I fully agree with all your statements, Steve! ;D
Juergen
Haha, true words^^
Those screws can be a pain, I have destroyed a few with my ignorance :( :-[ Now I attack them with a proper JIS bit:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_2449.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/Smlm)
They fit those screws real snug:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/Screen-Shot-2019-02-08-at-7.11.06-PM.md.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/SwCg)
Then heat it up with a torch and use a socket wrench with suitable attachments to get it out (-P) The added advantage is you can properly torque (8NM) them as well with the wrench on reassembly. If you don't have a proper JIS bit then often you can find a bit in those cheap toolsets for electric screwdrivers that fit better than your average philips.. Failing that you can even file down the tip of a normal philips bit which will give a better 'bite'.
Juergen - Thanks for the support. Glad you're looking in on my project. The more eyes on my activities the better to stop me when approaching a cliff.
ybk - Thanks for the insight, Karl. I feel a bit foolish in not knowing that those two screws were anchored with Red Locktite (which requires heat). I'm not sure of the brand of the #3 Phillips the "tool shop guy" gave me to try, but once seated, it did not "cam-out". In fact, that screw holding the counter-shaft bearing was pretty buggered up (by me). Glad it all came apart, but I'm wondering if I can find a hex-head or torx-head version of these screws. It certainly would make things easier, assuming I dig this deep again on this specific bike.
My local bearing shop just called. Time for another 40 mile round trip.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on February 08, 2019, 07:10:48 PM
Glad it all came apart, but I'm wondering if I can find a hex-head or torx-head version of these screws. It certainly would make things easier,
Strangely enough when I ordered those screws from yamaha I received ones with a torx head! Then second time round I got the philips heads again. Luck of the draw?
HA. At least we know they exist. I've got two large nut and bolt company's in our nearest town. I'm going to source them for a solution. They like it when I buy at least 20 units. If they can deliver, do you want a few torx head versions? US mail is not nearly as expensive as getting stuff from Japan.
Steve
My offer to supply these screw/bolts is open to all. This all assumes, I can source them, locally.
Not a much progress on the 3xv, but we did get my partner's bikes moved into The Shop. A Super-Stock, race prepped 2011 ZX-6R and track prepped EX-400 are first in line. My FZR-400 is behind that one. An '96 SRAD GSXR-750 is hiding under the flat -black tank. My RM-80 is in the back.
The TZR chassis is under the blue cotton linen (see last post for pics of powder coating). The engine is on the bench.
I did extract the needle bearing for the clutch actuation shaft. It and the contingent seal oblivious need replacing. Very sloppy.
Waiting on parts. Some are delayed, but shouldn't fowl the schedule for our first track day.
My partner supplies the transportation to and from track days and he uses my shop space for maintenance. We've been friends for at least 50 years. All good.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on February 08, 2019, 10:30:09 PM
HA. At least we know they exist. I've got two large nut and bolt company's in our nearest town. I'm going to source them for a solution. They like it when I buy at least 20 units.
Steve,
I'm not sure how easy it is to get metric fasteners in USA, but I usually replace
all JIS/Phillips head screws with high-tensile Allen socket screws. Most of these are available ready-zinc-plated for 'external' fittings. As far as countersunk (and also the rounded button-head) M6 Allen socket screws go, beware that these may only be good for use (i.e. installing and removing) a couple of times - the hex sockets can 'round out' if tightening torque is high. I use blue Loctite on these rather than the red stuff, which lessens the chance of damage on removal and heat is rarely required. The screws are cheap enough, so I usually buy 20 or more of each size, just to make sure I always have replacements ready.
If you do end up going for the Torx socket screws, please let us know your impressions!
Regards,
James
Hi James. Thanks for your contribution. Many of our cars are now built with metric fasteners. Even modern Harleys are partially metric. A couple are more than half metric. This 3xv is tricky enough, imagine juggling two types of measurements and wrenches.
Lots of metric tools and fasteners here. In fact, I replaced the phillips screws holding the oil filter with hex-heads of the same length. Used blue locktite after tidying up the mounting holes with carb cleaner.
I like the idea of a torx-head for a the counter-sunk bolts holding the bearings in place. Seems that more, if smaller contact points would mean less possible damage upon removal. I have no science to back that up, just a feeling. Your point about limited duty cycles for any fastener is worthy of note, however.
I'll report how it all works out.
Quote from: ybk on February 08, 2019, 09:24:00 PM
Quote from: Steveog on February 08, 2019, 07:10:48 PM
Strangely enough when I ordered those screws from yamaha I received ones with a torx head! Then second time round I got the philips heads again. Luck of the draw?
Spent most of my day chasing parts. (Yes, Warwick my local Yamaha shop can supply almost any part number, except those that are very 3xv specific.)
My local fastener guys just "gave" me 20 of these. (James: Torx heads we're on a special order only basis. Free and hex-head made the decision easy.)
Yes, Capitalism works. They know when I walk in it won't "make their day", but after spending a few bucks there over the years...we'll, let's just say, "I've only been to their competition, once."
My bike only needs 2 of these bolts pictured. I'd like to keep a few in stash, but if you, Karl (or anyone who has graciously helped me over the past year) wants a a few, PM me. Postage will be minimal for a simple envelope.
Steve
Waiting on bearings and the swing arm bushing. The bushing and swing-arm end cap seal won't be shipped until 3/11. My local Yamaha Shop wanted $123USD for the bush, but no shipping costs. Partzillila (which seems to be part of Webike, priced the same piece at half that price, but charges about $25 for shipping. "No-brainer", I decided to wait.
Got into cleaning and doing some minor flow work on the cases. I've included some before and after shots of the upper crankcase. Rather proud of some surgery needed to clean out shrapnel that was welded into one of the crank bearing's pin catches. Used a Dremel with small flat-topped, metal grinding tool.
Also, a shout to Warwick for recommending Simply Bearing in UK for pattern seals. Great prices. They were delivered today and look good. Mostly for suspension linkage.
So, it looks as if I might have the motor ready before the chassis. Any ideas for securing the motor in the frame for test starts? It feels as if I'll have to build a large jig of some sort to hold it all solid. Time better spent on other details? Never done this on a kick-start bike without wheels.
Partzilla is part of boats.net not linked to webike i think it's free shipping on orders $150 n over.
I started my one nsr250 but it was mostly together but no wheels on my stands.
Thanks, Rick. I could put the engine, frame and front end together, pending the delivery of the bushing. Now that I've thought about it a bit, I could support the bike with a rod through the swing-arm pivot points and use car-style stands to hold it up.
Weird about the swing-arm bushing. I just "searched" on Webike as part of my sourcing the usual sites. Then, I was in Partzilla. A great price and reasonable shipping expense, so I ordered. All good if I get the part by 4/01/11.
Note: My local Yamaha Shop said there were 5 of these bushings in Japan. Of course, there are many Yamaha warehouses, world wide. Even one in the UAE. But, while there is a creative "fix" possible in my situation. (Machining down the damage and press-fitting a sleeve for the bearings to ride on) It might be a good thing for all our 3xv friends to check swing-arm bearings and bushing.
I spent a few hours today pulling and/or pushing bearings out of the cases. I need a bit of guidance now.
Right after removal, I cleaned the bearings with spray-can carb stuff. I felt some hang-ups upon gentle rotation. Then after drying the bearings with compressed air, I dunked them in Yamalube 20w-50 and most, if not all, of the "catching" went away.
The question is, "what should I be doing to analyze the condition of the 3xv crucial bearings?" The bike ran and shifted properly before disassembly. Should all bearings be pulled and replaced?
The reason I decided to pull the bearings was to properly prepare the cases for a "soda-blast". (I don't have access to a local vapor-blast service.)
Many of you have done this, please don't let me fuck-up at this point.
Thanks.
It's this far apart just replace them and have that piece of mind. Pity you don't have a local vapor blasting around really is the best for cleaning aluminium cases without damaging the surfaces.
Thanks for the Allen key screw offer, I still have a few new torx oem ones so I'm good for now.
I'm with SeaR1ck, Just replace the bearings, if you can feel any notches turning a bearing I wouldn't use it at all. All the bearings are off the shelf apart from the one roller bearing on the balance shaft (or rather my bearing shop just frowned at it so maybe they're just useless.. ;D)
Heating the cases makes them easier to get out. Same with putting them in the freezer for pressing back. The non-needle bearing on the balance shaft is easy, so are the 2 on the gearbox plate The ones inside the engine cases may need a press. (Going on memory so maybe I got it wrong). Anybody else used some clever way to DIY it?
Been collecting bits for a soda blaster myself, a proper soda blast can give a very nice matte finish to aluminum. Let us know how yours come out.
Rick, ybk and all. I've stripped all the bearings (except the "blind" bearing in the photo and it's mate on the cassette plate). Those two, I've left in place. They both roll smoothly with no signs of catching or interference. The first question is, "Should I replace them as an act of best practices?" They are the same age as the six (6) I'm replacing.
Second question, I want to soda blast the engine. Is this a good idea if it isn't completely sealed?
What process is recommended to thoroughly clean the interior of the engine casings? After the damage done by the LH, big-end bearing failure there was a limited, but dirty-black deposit in the crankcase oil reside. I'd like to do something that would clean out the smallest crevices inside the cases.
Yes, I realize those two goals of exterior and interior cleaning maybe mutually exclusive, but pretty sure many of you have been down this road and have found a solution.
I'm willing to do manual labor, (scrubbing, etc.) but want a tidy looking engine when finished. The cylinders look brand new in appearance following their repair and plating. I'm generally a "function over form" guy, but...well, I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting a bike that looks "right" when naked.
Yes. I've read several restoration threads, but at this point, I'd prefer opinions based on my specific build and contingent limited budget.
Thank to all who wish to contribute.
Steve
Buy one of these kits and do it right the blind bearing removal kit.
https://www.amazon.com/d/Puller-Sets/Pit-Posse-Motorcycle-Bearing-Bushing/B004MAXG0K
You see how shiny these cases are in this picture they have been vapor blasted inside and out. Vapor blasting or vapor honing or aqua blasting. Since its a wet water based instead of dry media only. Won't damage the flat smooth bearing or gasket surfaces.
Soda blasting might not penetrate good enough might get some of the surface dirt but it will still look dull.
The second pic shows one side of an engine case that has been vapor blasted vs the other non blasted side.
Thanks, Rick. I bought that bearing puller a few weeks ago. It works well with a heat gun to help loosen things up. The two bearings I left in (so far) are blind, but they also didn't have any "hang-ups" and spun freely.
I guess your telling me by "doing it right" to REPLACE ALL the bearings. Actually, having now ordered the rest of the bearing, even the top brands aren't that expensive.
I'm waiting on a quote for the machined roller bearing for the balance shaft...that one seems rare on the open market. (Not OEM).
Again appreciate your opinions. Its not very exciting at the moment. Waiting on parts.
Steve
PS (Added later). I'm checking bigger cities near me for vapor-blasting services. Louisville is the closest (1.5 hours). Indianapolis, Nashville and St. Louis are all about 2.5 hours. A vapor blast would solve my problems and help make this venture feel "finished".
Gentlemen. I need help. I spent many hours today chasing rabbits. I want a 15 tooth lightweight, chrome-moly counter-shaft sprocket and a durable, aluminum alloy 39 tooth rear sprocket.
I found a good RK, non O-Ring chain for a reasonable price from a US distributor. ($65 USD) It's been ordered. Hazzah!
The websites I searched, specializing in the sprockets I want, were just plain awful.
I know, "Wahhhh. Dealing with the needs of a 3xv can be frustrating...get over it." So call me lazy, but I'd really appreciate a link to a distributor that can deliver what I want and will sell to the US. Or maybe one of you has these components and wants to sell.
My real dream is to find a US company with the proper parts, but I'm good to go with a U.K. or European connection.
I know this is an old topic and have read many posts on this issue, specifically that the rear sprocket from a TZ will fit with a bit of drilling. No problem, but OEM prices from Japanese sources are absurdly high. The retail websites with TZ parts have been almost impossible to navigate. Plus, at this point in my build, I have parts coming from at least six sources and would like to get both sprockets from the same place.
I know you guys understand, even if you're amused by my situation.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
Steve
https://japan.webike.net/ps/#!p.m=13571&p.c=1152&p.sk=1
I got the x.a.m classic series rear on mine i never found a US source when I was looking about 6 months ago. Mostly gonna find sprockets in Japan for it.
https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=tzr250+sprocket&_from=R40&_trksid=m4084.l1313&_nkw=tzr250+sprocket+15
Message a couple of those listed. Most will be able to also supply a 39 tooth TZ sprocket too
If you'd rather go direct, try https://www.bandcexpress.co.uk/ in the UK. They should be happy to supply you too.
Can't think why it would be s problem to source them in the US though? Where do those racing TZs get their sprockets from? Have you tried Rick at accu products?
Thanks to you both. I'll check all the links.
Warwick - I have not used either "rsc" or "accuprods". Will reach out to them. I have been able to get parts (balance shaft bearing and a specialized seal) from my local Yamaha shop. The TZ shows up on their system, but not every year it was produced. I'm working under the assumption that the 4dp would be the most likely TZ model to match the 3xv sprocket mounting.
My best.
Steve
TZ rear fitment is the same from the early 80s to 2000 as I recall so, yes, 4DP would be fine (-P)
Warwick - Sorry to be such a lame-ass about this simple question. Thanks for your patience and quick help.
I found some aftermarket TZ fitments of the proper 15/39 sprockets on Accuproducts website. Much less expensive than OEM from Japan.
Good news. Just today, I've received three (3) shipments of parts. Amazing how a few seals and bearings can change your mood.
Steve
No bother. It's always better to ask the question than to fumble in the dark, Steve 8).
Yeah, I love a little parcel of promise waiting for me on the doormat when I come home from work too :). Rick at accu-products has always been good for me when I've ordered from him. When the £ was really strong against the dollar a few years ago it was sometimes cheaper to order pars from Rick than to order them in the UK. Even with the postage on top.
If its a genuine TZ rear sprocket and you are using the std 3XV wheel fittings you will need to open the mounting holes out to 10mm. TZ are 8mm.
This is a good source for parts in the US. They also sell TZ and other 2T parts.
http://www.tso.us.com/parts-book/yamaha/0250tzr250/0250-main/2_index/tzr250-main.asp
Quote from: jools on February 25, 2019, 03:35:39 AM
If its a genuine TZ rear sprocket and you are using the std 3XV wheel fittings you will need to open the mounting holes out to 10mm. TZ are 8mm.
Thanks, Jools. I purchased "Talon" sprockets. TZ spec. Yes. I was prepared to open up the mounting holes. Appreciate the heads-up.
Quote from: Hoatso on February 25, 2019, 03:11:21 PM
This is a good source for parts in the US. They also sell TZ and other 2T parts.
http://www.tso.us.com/parts-book/yamaha/0250tzr250/0250-main/2_index/tzr250-main.asp
Great source, Hoatso. I gave it a quick look. Good to find a TZR/3xv specific site in the US. I feel as though I could have purchased a new bike based on shipping expenses alone these past few months. Thanks.
Bits an pieces keep arriving. Just got some bearings from Bolton's in the UK...including the swing-arm thrust bearings ala' SP. (Thanks Warwick and Andy Bush) The pivot shaft bushing is to arrive Wednesday. A local source provided IKO roller bearings.
Took the cases to be glass bead blasted. My local guy demoed what it will look like using a portion of the clutch cover. Beautiful. The owner advised I stick the the cases in the dish washer before assembly, blow out all the orifices with compressed air and dry with heat gun. Sounds good...assuming I can properly judge the time when the wife won't be around. Yes, the cases are completely clear of all bearings, rubber and plastic. He is only blasting the exterior of the motor, which I prepped with engine de-greaser and high pressure water.
Mostly, just working on cleaning and prepping everything I can for now. That said: I was cleaning the Variable Air Jets today. Had a thought. (One per day is about right.) Has anyone tried to route cool air into the VAJ by extending the intake hose/nozzle away from the engine bay?
It wouldn't be very hard to do. It always seems cool air is better for internal combustion. Why Not?
Thanks
Steve
Cases look real nice, love the matte finish. 8) Should match those barrels nicely now (-P)
Thanks, Karl. I was pleased, too. Appreciate your keeping an eye on my project.
Now, I have to wash or somehow clean the interior of the cases before beginning the build. What are your thoughts on soap and water? One would be warm water (dishwasher) or cold, but much higher pressure (car wash). A tub of mineral spirits was mentioned by one of the techs at the media blasting company, but then how do you clean off that product?
All opinions welcome.
Steve
Paraffin or diesel. Dry in the sun
Thanks, Phil. Diesel it shall be.
I use diesel sometimes but I prefer kerosene (kerosen lamp it's called) ... then rinse with water ;)
Toop. I can get both forms of fuel, but am not familiar with "kerosene lamp". The kerosene, locally is more expensive than gasoline, so I'm guessing its OK. I've been using it to clean chain lube and does a great job.
Thanks for you help.
Steve
Yes it is more expensive, but cleans better and is more 'dry'. it is eliminated with a simple and fast rinsing with water unlike diesel which leaves a deposit.
With less that two liters I just made a old M51 BMW six cylinder engine complete with accessory and pumps when I did his restoration ;) ;)
I use it as machines 'fountain' to clean the mechanics with the help of an old toothbrush, it becomes black but continues to remove dirt. It settles at rest in the bottom of the container, then I continue to use the liquid until exhaustion.
Thanks, Toop. That sounds like we're talking about the same grade of kerosene. The stuff I used, cleaning off 27 years of chain lube, could have been filtered and used again.
Steve
I started cleaning up the reed cages today. I have Boyesen Power Reeds I plan to install. After getting it looking pretty good, I noticed what looked like a tear in the molded-in, rubber, sealing surface. See Pics. My bench has an electronic maintenance magnifying glass and after looking closer, it was obviously a tiny piece of aluminum. Probably shrapnel left over from 9/11/19. After I did a bit of careful surgery with a fresh utility knife blade, I began to notice tiny pits in the upper edge of the entire rubber gasket.
The second pic shows the result of the surgery.
Now, the question is, "will this pitting effect the engines performance if I just reassemble or can the pits be repaired with something such as silicone sealant or am I completely fucked, as the whole cage may need replacing"?...its showing up as NLA on from some Japanese parts suppliers. (This was a quick check of 3xv parts only. There is probably a cross-referenced equivalent somewhere. Perhaps a TZ?)
There would seem to be little point in buying used, if indeed it needs replacing.
Thanks for any advice and help.
Time for a bourbon and beer.
Steve
I dont think it's too serious really, I would use it as is.. Any filler you use will probably just end up in the motor.
Quote from: ybk on March 08, 2019, 06:40:18 AM
Any filler you use will probably just end up in the motor.
Suppose so too, I?ve tryed it at some point with petrol resistent treebond, dryed and cured by the book - washed away.
Think I have a set of cages laying around somewhere... but the cost of sending to USA would perhaps be too much...
Very nice rebuild (-P)
Most appreciated, guys:
Karl - Boyesen reeds are a two stage design with the stiffer of the two reeds covering the area where the pitting has taken place. (See Attachment. No I'm not getting a commission from Boyesen) I looked with a magnifier and a cannot see any spots what would leak until the pressure of the engine opens the stiffer reed. Think I'll avoid any attempt at sealing those tiny pits. I don't believe they were all caused by the crank letting go and the possibility of extra junk flying around inside my brand new engine internals is a bit frightening. The reed block on the RH cylinder showed similar wear (without shrapnel), but also was not showing any spots that could leak before thicker reeds would opening.
Casual - Sending me extra reed cages is a very generous offer. However, with YBK's advice, as well as your experience, left me convinced to just carry on at this point. Replacing the reed cages (later) would be relatively easy compared to opening the motor.
Many thanks to you both for keeping up with my project. I've got a new problem that is absolutely crucial. The solution seems easy, but may require a machine shop. I'll take some pics for opinions.
I started to rebuild the swing-arm and rear suspension. If you remember, the swinger's bearings and pivot shaft bushing were completely junked by water and rust. It took three days of Kroil, heat and hammering to free the swing-arm. It has since been sand-blasted and power-coated.
Big Problem: When I attempted to check the fit of the new bearings in preparation for cleaning out the pivot channel, it was obvious that the bearings I had purchased were about 1.5 mm too wide on the OD. The ID was perfect. So, figuring I had ordered the wrong size from a bearing company, I bit the bullet and purchased a new set of bearings from my Yamaha dealer. The new Yamaha bearings were exactly the same IKO 2525Z, as I had purchased from the bearing shop. WTF?.
The picture shows WTF. The outer bearing shells had molecularly bonded to the aluminum of swing arm pivot channel on both side. You can clearly see where the needles had embedded into the outer shell. When I broke out the old bearing, only the needles and cage came out. I didn't think it all out at the time. Too busy with the engine.
I don't have the tools to cut the bearing shells and chisel them out. Bearing steel is about as hard a steel gets. If there is a DIY way to remove the bearing shells, please offer your advice. If I need a machine shop, time to sell blood.
Thanks in advance.
Notch it cut through the race carefully and curl it up towards the inside and try to pull it out ?
You should be able to draw them out with a bearing puller or knock them out with a hammer and long drift from the other side with care, Steve. Heat and/or penetrating oil will help. The bearing shell is steel and the arm aluminium so it should move reasonably easily with enough persuasion. But they are a very tight press fit of course. Take care not to damage the inner arm if using a drift.
If you'd rather cut them to split and chisel out you could try a dremmel type mini-grinder with a little cutting disc maybe?
I used the heat and hammer & long drift method when I removed some recently, but my bearings were in one piece which might have made it a little bit easier?
Warwick - I'll give it a go. I have a blind bearing puller. Tempted to try Kroil, heat and puller first. No way to damage the swinger with that technique, Yes?
Rick - I considered cutting the bearing parallel to the swinger cavity. But, how? The bearing steel is f'ing bonded to the swinger's aluminum. Seems I'd need a 90 degree Dremel and diamond attachment. Perhaps a diamond hack-saw blade. What would you use to cut the bearing steel?
Thanks, gentlemen. It seems as though this swing-arm is a demon that just won't die. Maybe I need an exorcist.
The good news is I have new pivot bearings, roller thrust bearings and bushing ready to go. The pivot shaft cleaned up nicely.
Are these swing arm bearing failures common to a 3xv? My problem is a great bike, obviously suffering years of neglect. But, what about bikes that have been rebuilt? Should I return/sell the extra bearing set or keep them, as I would an extra set of Wossners?
Bluntly. I won?t deal with anything in the next month, except getting my bike back on the track. So, thanks again to you both for quick, smart and usable advise.
You can try the washer cut in half method Andy used?
Thanks, Karl. It may come to that. I can also mod-up a rig to use a hydraulic jack to push the bearings race out through the swing-arm channel.
Lots of options. Thanks for reminding me of Andy's creativity.
I don't believe I can express how the steel and aluminum have become one over the years. It's not as if I'm trying to break loose two separate components.
It may take a 33mm boring of the swinger. Let's hope not.
As always. Your input and concern for my project are most appreciated.
Steve
Steve. other than the crust of rust at the ends, it's unlikely that the bearing shell will have 'bonded' in any significant way to the arm along its entire length as the arm and the shell are different materials. Once you get it moving it should come out reasonably easily, but some pretty significant force/pressure will be required to move it. If you have a hydraulic press and can rig that up for use it will push them out easily. If you don't feel confident tackling it yourself, a good local garage/workshop should be able to do it for just a few $s - it should be half an hours work or less with the right tools.
I wouldn't have given you duff bearing numbers, Steve... :(. I'd return the more expensive pair if I could, personally. As you've seen, the ones in the Yamaha bag are the same as the off-the-shelf IKOs.
Warming the arm and freezing the new bearings will help with fitting. You can tap them in carefully, but a DIY puller made from threaded rod and suitable washers will pull them in with less violence/risk of damage.
With normal use and maintenance, and assuming the end cap seals are good, and the sleeve bush surfaces flawless, the new bearings should be good for many years of use.
Forgot to mention earlier that the reed blocks look usable to me. Not perfect of course, but an easy replacement later if you do find that they give any problems (-P).
Years ago, I would replace thin stainless steel reeds with the dual Boyeson reeds. This would make the screws too short. Maybe they come with longer screws now, but if they don?t, be sure to get longer ones and Loctite them so they don?t get sucked through your engine and blown out the exhaust.
I bead blasted some cases, then sprayed them with clear lacquer to keep them from oxidizing. It worked well.
Probably a bit late to advise as you've lost the inner race, but I used a slide-hammer type expanding bearing puller tool for removal and applied plenty of heat from an electric heat gun beforehand..don't be mean with the heat!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9pc-Inner-Bearing-Blind-Hole-Remover-Extractor-Puller-Pilot-Bushes-Housing-Kit/123645300215?epid=16021413345&hash=item1cc9d58df7:g:jZoAAOSwvoNbjlBv
Refitted with this tool, however, I think I purchased some longer threaded rod, as the supplied rod is too short for the swing arm. Again, plenty of heat without scorching the paint and a bit of lubrication..
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Motorcycle-Bike-Universal-Swing-Arm-Needle-Bearing-Tool-MS049-/311267010737?hash=item4878f5a8b1
Great stuff gents. Thanks for all the support and ideas.
Warwick - Please don't think I was blaming you for telling me which bearings to buy. I just didn't think it all out when I discovered they didn't fit. I also only really looked at the opposite side of the swinger. The pic was taken yesterday after I had checked both sides. My sincere apologies if you were somehow insulted. There is no way I would be this far into this bike without your continued advice. The Yam bearings were actually cheaper, so I'll return the set from the bearing shop.
Now, I don't wish to dispute your expertise on this subject, but steel and aluminum can bond in a process called Galvanic corrosion which is the transfer of electrons from one material (anode) to another (cathode). For this to take place, an electrolyte must be present. (In my case a liquid that aids in the process of electron transfer between the two metals.) Water is a superior electrolyte. As you can see in the pic, plenty of water had worked its way past the swinger's end cap/seal over the years. The right side end cap/seal was buggered. Here's the source of my info: https://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/blog/2017/09/15/stainless-steel-and-aluminum/
All this science stuff is quite irrelevant now, but your ideas for breaking the bearing race free and then fitment of new bearings are good solutions. I just hope the steel from the bearing shell all comes out, clean. Because I have a bearing removal hammer set, I'll probably start with that along with penetrating oil and heat. The hydraulic solution will require some rigging. A machine shop will be a last resort, as I now know several of you have been able to do this on your own.
No issues on not responding to the reed cage question. I just figured the other answers to that question had covered your opinion. Good to hear you indeed agree for me to proceed, pending future maintenance if needed.
Hoatso - I've mounted the Boyesen reeds and there was less purchase between the dual reeds, stopper and reed cage mounting holes, but enough that I have confidence its all good. Yes. Blue Loctite. Careful to not get any between the reeds. The seal looks good under the magnifier. A clear coat on that "clean" engine would be a good idea. Must clean and wash it off first. I've been focused on a paying project this past week. Gotta get the money to pay for all this, Yes?
Cruise - The bearing puller/hammer did the job on all the blind bearing I pulled from the engine. As I told Warwick, that is where I will start. In fact, the hammer and catch device could be used in reverse. pushing, rather than pulling. I'll know if that works, soon. Thanks for the link to a tool built specifically to install swing-arm bearings. If the heat/cold, threaded rod/washer idea isn't sufficient, you've given me a direct way to source a specific tool.
The good news is that the lip of the bearing shell will give the bearing removal tool something to grab onto. The same is true if I have to push the bearing out through the swing arm pivot cavity.
I'm off to the Shop. Will report back once the bearing shell is clear.
Again, thanks to all.
I got one of the bearing races out. It wasn't pretty, but it was effective and I didn't break anything.
Warwick - You were right, I could not find any evidence of galvanic corrosion (except that originally seen between the needles,pivot shaft bushing and out bearing race). There was however, a very thin secondary layer of something left behind once I freed the bearing shell. You can see it in pic 005.
In approaching the technique using Kroil, heat and bearing puller, there was no space to apply the Kroil. As it was, I didn't believe it would have a chance to penetrate between steel and aluminum this week. So using a tiny flat-nose screwdriver head, I opened up a few holes around the rim of swinger cavity. I didn't expect it to work quickly, but applied propane flame directly to the bearing shell and a heat gun to the exterior aluminum. Surprisingly the bearing puller tore out a portion of the shell, but wouldn't pull it out. So, using a chisel I opened the shell and twisted it out. Not very elegant, but the results are a round swinger cavity with the same ID as stock.
After cleaning out the thin film in the cavity with a Dremel, I did a test fit with a new bearing. Perfect. It will require a press-fit, but want to scrub out the channel before doing that.
On the other side, the bearing shell was so tightly compressed to the swing-arm that when trying the to create pockets for the Kroil, small pieces of the shell just broke away.
This time I poured the Kroil down the pivot cavity from the back side. There's a bit of bearing lip there, hoping by letting it soak overnight it will come out without needing a chisel. With one side open now, I'm going to use the bearing puller head and push it and the shell out from the bottom with my hydraulic jack. I suppose that would have worked, originally. Too bad I'm only thinking of it now. Shit.
I'm not proud of my craftsmanship, but offer that this solution works. Hoping no others have a swing arm pivot that was in such bad shape. I still don't know how the bike was even ridable, let alone handle better than anything I had ever experienced on two wheels.
Here's some pics from this afternoon's adventure.
Thanks to all.
A bath of Kroil, over-night patience, heat and the hydraulic jack was a much better solution for the right side. See pics.
I built the rig first, used propane heat directed as evenly as possible at the steel bearing surface, quickly inserted the blind bearing puller (pic_001), then using the rusted bushing shaft as a drift, cranked up the jack pushing the bearing out.
It took some finessing of the tie-downs to properly apply the needed force, but after about half an hour of dicking with the set-up, the bearing shell parted its 28 year relationship with the swinger. Quite satisfying.
Did quick cleanup of the cavity, but still need a stiff wire brush attachment for a drill to clean out all the crud buried in the pivot channel.
Plan on using a heat gun, frozen bearings and simple washer/threaded rod-style puller to install new bearings.
I can now assemble the chassis. Still waiting on sprockets and three engine bearings.
Thanks to all who gave me hints and tips for this potential deal-breaker.
Good work, Steve. The more grief something gives you, the more satisfying it is when you crack it, eh?
I was going to suggest that you remove the new coating on the end of the shaft for the end bearing, but it looks like you've taken care of that. The dust seals in the end cap might seal better of you smooth down that textured coating in the sealing area too, perhaps?
Onwards and upwards! 8) (-P)
Thanks, Warwick. First the countershaft sprocket, then the swinger pivot and now these fookin? bearing sleeves. A real threesome might actually kill me. This threepeat was a true effort, but really satisfying.
Yes. I should have had the bearing seal area on the end of the swinger masked before powder-coating. I don?t know of a tool that can be used to do a precise job of it now. I used a hand-held belt sander to clean the outer surface at the pivot cavity opening, but the powder coat is very tough. (DUH).
Seems a socket-like tool with an abrasive inside surface would be perfect to remove the coating. I just have never seen such a device.
Maybe I can make my own. If you or anyone has an idea, I?m open to ideas.
Here?s to a couple of cold ones. Victory party has already started.
Quote from: Steveog on March 11, 2019, 01:21:58 AM
...Seems a socket-like tool with an abrasive inside surface would be perfect to remove the coating. I just have never seen such a device.
Maybe I can make my own. If you or anyone has an idea, I?m open to ideas.
Steve,
The 'easy' way for me would be to cut a thin strip of abrasive paper or cloth (of whatever grade you think suitable), about the same width as the length of the sealing surface on the swing arm tube. Loop it around the circumference of the swing arm pivot tube, grasp one end with each hand and gradually work it backwards and forwards all around the tube as required. By using suitable grade abrasive, force and speed, you can gradually remove the powder without going too far. Once you have broken through the powder finish, you may consider changing to a finer grade abrasive to finish off (also consider using WD40, soapy water etc. to keep the abrasive wet as you use it). You may like to cover adjacent parts of the swing arm (on which you want to keep the powder finish) with some durable adhesive tape if there is any likelihood of the abrasive touching it.
A more 'precision' alternative would be to set the swing arm up on a milling machine with the tube oriented vertically in the chuck of a rotary table. Using a cutter of suitable length and small diameter (or small diameter abrasive-band-on-arbor assembly), gradually bring the swing arm closer to the spinning cutter until the powder finish is only just removed, then slowly rotate the swing arm 360 degrees until the same finish is achieved around the entire circumference. There is of course a lot of 'faffing about' involved in setting this up, so you may get an almost equal result by going carefully with the first suggested method!
Let us know how you get on... :)
Regards,
James
Good ideas, James. Thank You. I have made a tool from thin wall 46mm (ID) aluminum tubing. The OD of the swingarm pivot is 42mm.
The plan is to hold 200 grit sandpaper in place inside the tubing with rubber strip press-fit by a 32mm, 1/2? drive socket. The socket then serves as the drive for spinning the tool with hand drill and taking off the majority of the coating. The swinger will be held in a vice with rubber end caps to avoid damage.
I have no idea if this will work. The tool is assembled. I will post a picture, later.
Your first method, James would be my fallback. Yes. Masking off the swinger is crucial.
Appreciate you kind wishes. Watch this space.
My best. Steve.
James and All. Made good progress on the swinger today. My OTO tool works, but the power coating clogs the 200 grit sand paper quickly. Had to tear it apart and re-load the abrasive three (3) times. Believe the pictures will tell the story. The end cap seal fits tight and moves freely, but the job is only about 90% finished.
After the first pass with the coarse abrasive, I then used a 180 grit Dremel polishing tool to clean it up further. Everyone knows how long those Dremel attachments last. I burned up the only two I had getting to what you see here.
Big problem solved, now just a trip to town tomorrow for 4-5 Dremel Attachments and I can move on.
Thanks for your ideas and interest in my project.
Steve
I've always just used paint stripper to remove powder coat from unmasked areas. I thought it wouldn't work but it just bubbled up the power coat same as any other paint. Using a tiny brush I did detailed removal.. (maybe my powder coating was crap? or the paint stripper I used was bad ass..it was a gel type)
Good suggestion to clean up the powder coating that remains, Karl. The guys who did my PC did a great job. Their stuff was a bitch to attack. (Of course, it was my error in not asking for proper masking in the first place.)
After blasting, they kept open the chain adjustment marks and the VIN number. Outstanding customer service. Their owner is a veteran flat-tracker.
Their coating was so good, I've since splashed brake cleaner on it with no impact.
Thanks for the tip, though. Paint remover is a lot cheaper and far less of an engineering excercise than Dremel attachments and my homemade tool.
I'll just ask for the "secret death formula" paint stripper. If it doesn't work, I've got a backup plan ready.
Thanks, again.
Steve
I've been out of the shop for few days. Tried ybk's idea for removing unwanted powder coating. Worked as advertised. Many Thanks. Much easier than trying to carefully grind it off.
My only problem is I was so happy with my invention. (HA).
As you can see in the pics there was some scarring on the side revealed by paint/epoxy stripper. After scraping the coating off, I Used a Dremel polishing tool, attempting to clean it up. The other side looks nicer. As you can see the end cap for left side had been damaged sometime back in Jurassic Era. That's probably responsible for water getting into the bearings, bushing and buggering up the swingers outer most end surface.
The last pic shows a new end cap in place. It fits just as it should.
Thanks again for a great solution to my problem. Moving on to assembling the chassis.
Steve
Glad you got it sorted Steve. Thanks to Karel for the suggestion to use paint stripper for removing powder coating - I wouldn't have thought it would work either, but can't argue with testimony from two independent sources! Must try it when opportunity arises...
Regards,
James
Thanks, James. I went with ybk's suggestion, figuring, "what the hell" That, and I trusted his expertise.
The paint stripper I used was a gel-type that promised to work on Epoxy as well as paint. I only let it cure for about an hour before the first picture. It took a variety of typical hand tools to finish up the surface. Pocket knife, utility knife, pointed pick, 200 grit sand paper and the Dremel with slightly abrasive polishing drum.
That's gaffer tape used to mask. It doesn't leave residue and the stripper didn't dissolve it. It's not cheap, but guarantees against overslop.
I may have to do this again. The mounting points for the shock linkage is covered with powder coat.
Thanks for your interest and encouragement.
Steve
Lots of good news. A bit of mind fog on my part though kept today's session from being perfect.
Started pulling one of the two swing-arm bearings into place selecting the side that had suffered the most over the years and the necessary, but brutal disassembly process. I decided to use the axle as the threaded puller, figuring its made of high-grade steel and has a tight thread pattern, making each movement more precise. Good Idea. Another good idea was coating the bearing's outer skin with Permatex, Anti-Seize compound.
I'm slowly cranking the bearing in place. Things were going so well, I forgot that axle had a limited number of threads, so when the going got tough (the axle nut had grounded out), I just thought that it was a bit of deformation down in the swinger's cavity. So, I broke out my trusty breaker-bar and laid into it. No joy. Broke out the heat gun. Still nothing moved. About this time, I tapped on the end of the axle nearest to the bearing and it and the bearing budged a bit. A very dim light bulb goes of in my head.
Now, I had realized what dumb-ass means.
Tried to remove the axle lock nut to take the puller apart and just tap home the bearing. "Nothing is ever fucking easy". It took Kroil, a propane torch and breaker bar to release the lock nut. I believe the threads on the nut are now damaged, as removing it took way to much effort. The bolt threads are OK.
Back to the good news. It was now easy to tap the bearing home using a thin washer and a 22mm socket. Job done. So was I.
On the other side, I'm going to use the same puller rig, get the bearing squared away about half way into the cavity, tear the puller apart, heat the swinger and tap the bearing in place with the washer/socket.
Yamaha is to be commended for their 30 year-old casting technology. My swinger has taken a real beating and is still rock-solid.
PS - I'll be acquiring a tight threaded rod from my bearing guys, soon.
If you put the bearing in the freezer for a few hours and heat up the arm a bit, they should slide in pretty easy with a bit of grease to help them on their way, Steve. There's no need to over-complicate things or use excessive force. I just used a length of plain 8mm threaded rod with washers and nuts to pull them in. Easy. ?:-|
Yes. I knew how the physics work and would have done as you suggested, if the puller wasn?t working. There seemed to be no reason to wait for freezing the bearings. And there it is. I will be unable to work on the bike much in the next 10 days. I wanted to mount the bearings today.
What I should have done with my rig, was to cut another, longer piece of PVC to assist in pulling the bearing all the way home.
I posted my lapse of judgement as a warning to others who don?t have quite the experience as you and others here, but do have instincts they trust. They may also have motivation to towards impatience. That is where you?re screwed almost every time.
I plan to ?sweat? all the engine bearings into place. Will now do the same (just heat gun, no oven) on the other swinger bearing.
This is much like using paint stripper to clean off unwanted powder coat. I read the entire current Forum and not once did I encounter any suggestions...except for my project (with practical ideas from James and an unexpected solution from ybk.)
Experience = Knowledge earned through trial, failure, preservence and finally, success.
Thanks, as always, for sharing your experience. My best to you for your advise, admonishments and encouragements.
PS - Based on my experience, I recommend the ?anti-seize? lubricant over simple oil or grease.
My problems with the swing-arm pivot started on January 21st. Today, all-new pivot bearings, pivot bushing, SP thrust bearings, end cap/seals are installed and ready to mount back to the frame. The pivot bolt has been cleaned, polished and slathered with anti-seize grease. Only the pivot shaft nut needs replacing, but I can move forward with the old one, while waiting.
Quote from: Warwick on March 25, 2019, 12:21:38 AM
If you put the bearing in the freezer for a few hours and heat up the arm a bit, they should slide in pretty easy with a bit of grease to help them on their way, Steve.
Yes, Warwick. The second Bearing slipped right in. Requiring only a light tap to set in place. Thank You, again.
Business will now keep me out of the shop for 8 days. The engine will then be my primary focus.
I'll probably miss the first track day with the TZR, but my teammate has graciously offered to share his super-stock ZX-6R and/or "Built" EX-400 track bike for the 4/20 due date.
Stay tuned.
A bit at a time. Pressed the new bearings and seals into the suspension linkage. Used anti-seize compound on both. Moly grease on bearings and bushings, more anti-seize on the bolts and nuts.
The action of the linkage is very smooth. Very satisfying.
All nuts are finger tight at the moment, as I'm not confident that I had all the proper washers in the first place. When I disassembled the bike, I carefully put all sub-assemblies together in labeled plastic bags. I even separated the linkage (dog-bone) that attaches to the swinger from that which mounts to the chassis and shock. I'm going back into my pictures for clarification. Any of you know where I can get a more specific guide, beyond the parts drawings or maintenance manuals? I know that's a bit vague, but anything you might know would help.
If I can't solve this, I'll give more details.
Steve
I found washers that fit perfectly around the bushing (Arrow #1). They are not shown in this picture, but are the same ID as the bushing and OD as the dog-bone inner surface. These washers took up the slack between the dog-bone and the inside of the mounting point at the swing-arm. This may not be what Yamaha intended, but it certainly makes sense, as there is no gap between the bushing and mounting points. I can't imagine the dog-bone being designed to float on the bushings, side-to-side. There is no room at arrow #2 for any washers inside the mount, even though the parts diagram show that such washers exist (parts numbered as 11). Another great case for even more care taking photos and notes when disassembly occurs months before reassembly.
Finally, I've got the swinger mounted to the chassis. It was a tight fit, as the powder-coating added a slight bit of dimension that wasn't there originally. No force (beyond my lame-ass muscles) was needed to get the swing into position. It moves beautifully smooth now with new pivot bearings, end caps and SP thrust bearings.
Steve
Part No. 11 is just the bearing seals Steve.
I noted the float at 1 too when reassembling. I just left mine as it was though as it had always been like that and worked fine before disassembly.
Feels good to have a two piece chassis, huh?
Yep the float is normal, the linkages only have washers on the outsides. That diagram is deceptive, they make the seals look like washers.. Just take note of which way round each bolt goes in and the torque associated with each.
Thanks boys. Glad to know I didn?t lose or misplace parts. The first picture shows what I?ve done at the dog-bone pivot in question. Should I take it apart? The washers I've installed allow a bit of free play and everything lines up. All new parts.
I'm a bit embarrassed, as I could have checked those ?washer-looking? seals on a site such as MegaZip. All descriptions of the parts there are in English.
Warwick - Yes. It?s been two months battling this swing-arm. Very good to get it together and feel how well it all works with the best pieces in place. Thanks for the tip on those pattern seals, bearings and running tests on those SP thrust bearings. Invaluable for this old, 3xv rookies.
Karel - Glad you jumped in on my behalf. Yes. I have two torque wrenches on loan to button things up. No sense in going this far to simply trust experience. I'm tempted to safety wire the linkage nuts in place.
Since my last post, I've mounted the shock. Everything is still finger tight. ?Looks like I need a bigger bench.?
Steve
So long as there is still a bit of float I'd imagine it'll be OK, Steve. Not sure why there is so much float built into that particular joint though? It did cross my mind to look at taking up some of the float on mine to see how it felt, but I decided against it in the end on the assumption that as the others are a tighter fit the float might be there for a reason ?:-|.
I wonder if lateral movement along that bearing sleeve is the source of the knock that is sometimes heard when lifting the bike by the rear subframe? ?:-|
I just took a look at the configuration of the rear suspension on a 4DP2. It has collars with flanges which slide into the bearings and seem to meet, creating the surface on which the bearing rides.
It's not clear if the TZ has any float built into its system...at the point we?re discussing.
The 3xv rear suspension moves in only one perceptible direction. Up and down. There seems to be no reason for the dog-bone to float on its collar/bushing.
I'm going to leave things as they are on my bike for now. Well, I may try to source a higher quality (stainless) set of washers. The current set up on my bike emulates the way the swinger thrust bearing ride on the pivot bushing.
That said, probably better to move on, building the engine.
Thanks for your thinking on this, Warwick. Yamaha must have had a good reason for delivering the bike in this configuration, but we, as a group, seem to keep searching for ways, attempting to improve them.
No. I did not blast and coat the shock spring. Dreaming of an Ohlin's, Nitron or K-Tech.
Had too much business today. No shop time. Thought this might be a good time to better show how I modded the typical 3xv, soft stock spring with a simple trick, picked up from US/NASCAR. Its called a "wedge". Its a piece of industrial rubber. By isolating the upper coils, the spring it is stiffened. This is not the same as cranking up the preload. The spring's active length is essentially shortened, thus making it stiffer. So, a very small bit of travel is sacrificed for an inexpensive way to a noticeably tighter suspension.
I did this quickly, as an experiment, the week before I lost the crank on 9/11/18. It worked, even on a swing-arm pivot that was just the bushing grinding into what was left of the swingers pivot bearings, lubed by mud and water.
It will be mounted with hex-head bolt, using PVC as a guard, rolling on the shock. It was originally mounted with a big cable tie. That seems a bit half-assed and a red flag for sharp tech inspector. Because the bike is now in this state of re-assembly, I'm also considering rounding off the square edges, making it a bit more "finished".
I weigh 180 lbs. A bit over 12 Stone. This mod made an obvious improvement in an afflicted bike's handling. Looking forward to how it will feel with proper suspension action and lubrication.
Steve
Quote from: Warwick on March 31, 2019, 01:02:12 PM
So long as there is still a bit of float I'd imagine it'll be OK, Steve. Not sure why there is so much float built into that particular joint though? It did cross my mind to look at taking up some of the float on mine to see how it felt, but I decided against it in the end on the assumption that as the others are a tighter fit the float might be there for a reason ?:-|.
I wonder if lateral movement along that bearing sleeve is the source of the knock that is sometimes heard when lifting the bike by the rear subframe? ?:-|
I also acquired the knock following my refurb but decided I may have got something slightly wrong so stripped, rechecked and re-assembled the shock linkeage whereby it disappeared. Possibly I was just lucky or was a numpty. :-\
Thanks, Thump. I haven't even lifted the frame and swinger searching for this "knock". It would seem that now would be a good time to look for it, as I only have the bare frame, swinger, linkage and shock in place.
I'm going to buy a small bag of "bearing quality" stainless washers for the dog-bone mount at the swing-arm. If anyone wants a couple, PM me. I'll have many more than I'll need.
Steve
Thump - My suspension linkage and shock mount is still just "finger tight". When lifting the frame today I heard THE "clunk.?" With nothing else on the bike, there was clearly a slop-factor at all linkage mounting points. I had just replaced all bearings, seals and washers.
My guess is that the "clunk", reported by many, has more to do with suspension linkage tolerances than anything else. Validating Thump?s experience. I'll have more data after I cinch up all the bolts/nuts to torque specs.
New question. In the attached picture, there appears to be two (2) possible mounting points for "L" shaped linkage attaching to the frame. I used the standard mount.
Is the alternate mount there to modify suspension action? If not, what purpose does it serve. The parts diagrams and maintenance manuals don?t seem to address this phantom mount.
I could be a numpty and missed something obvious. Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Steve
All - My real job was postponed to the end of the month. Good shop time. Cleaned the cases with kerosene, rinsed with water. Ready for assembly.
While I was in there I discovered a tiny hole in the clutch cover at the kick-start seal. Looks as if it had worn through over many years of use. Used JB Weld epoxy to fix. Wondering if I shouldn't build up the spot with more epoxy to avoid any potential re-breaking on the spot.
I?ve seen a product that uses soft aluminum rod to weld aluminum with only the heat from a propane torch. The demo shows the sealing of a hole in an aluminum can. Could this work on my clutch cover? That fix would eliminate any chance of the epoxy breaking loose.
I also discovered a mystery inside the Left Hand Carburetor. There is an "R" cast under the body of the carb where it joins the float bowl. A similar casting mark can also be found in the float bowl.
I know the carb is correct for the cylinder. Can someone clue me in as to the R on a Left Hand carb. Does it stand for R-Model, as all the Sp's and SpR's have different carbs? Not a big deal. Just curious.
Thanks
Steve
That lower shock mount supposedly drops the rear so not much use. Haven't tried it myself though.
No sure about the carbs..maybe some meaning relevant to another bike - the TM28 and variants were used on many yamaha's.. ???
All my bikes have had the clunk in the suspension if I recall correctly. I'll check the SPR once I start stripping it but I'm pretty sure it's normal..
Can you see daylight through that clutch cover hole?
Quote from: ybk on April 04, 2019, 07:55:50 AM
No sure about the carbs..maybe some meaning relevant to another bike - the TM28 and variants were used on many yamaha's.. ???
Yes - I think it must be some Mikuni reference identity for the carb body casting style. I have checked three different versions of the TM28SS (TZR 1KT, TZR 3XV and DT200R 2YY) - all have the "R". I also checked a straight-bore TM28 (i.e. not angled-bore like the TM28SS) from an RG250 - it had a "K" cast in the same spot. I further checked a TM28 from an RM80 (basically a mirror image version of the RG250 carb) - it had an "R", but it was cast in a different spot to that of the TM28SS. If anyone knows the significance of these markings, please let us know!
Regards,
James
Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen.
ybk - I would be interested in to hear from anyone who has used the alternate shock mount. The mounting plates are not the same as the SP model, but both R and SP have two linkage mounting options.
The "thunk" is still a mystery. thump566 seems to have solved it.
Yes, you can see daylight through the hole in the clutch cover at the kick-start seal, but the seal had kept it covered. Most of the external engine seals were a bit worn and weeping slightly. They will all be replaced. That tiny hole is definitely due to wear. Its not a crack. Here's a video that explains welding aluminum with only a propane torch. https://youtu.be/yqkceLrH9Ao Tempting. But, I can't afford to F-Up the clutch cover.
James - Good details on carb comparisons. The (R) probably means nothing to the performance of the bike, but after 28 years, most of the 3xv history and iterations seem to have been discovered. We now have one more mystery. As you say, If anyone knows the significance of these markings, please let us know!
Back to the shop. Weather here is perfect for riding (cough...testing). But, can't take the bait and get into a hurry, now.
Thanks, Again.
Steve
Finishing up the carbs. Dunk bath in potent carb cleaner for 4-6 hours, rinsed in fresh water, careful reassembly using spray cleaner and compressed air. No. I didn't have them soda blasted or US cleaned, so some embedded grime remains on the exterior. The carbs worked OK before the crank ate itself, but after examining the needle valve and pulling the rubber o-ring gasket, I noticed a bit of corrosion and decided to clean the jet and replace the o-ring. Unfortunately, you can't merely order up the o-ring. Its part of the needle valve kit. I went to my local fastener experts and they had o-rings of proper ID, but was almost twice the thickness as the stock piece. (see pic. Stock o-ring at the top).
When I attempted to add a bit of pressure to fit the new o-ring on the jet...no joy. I turned down the o-ring in my handheld drill, added penetrating oil and it all went together without further fusssing. Set the float bowl to 15mm. Moving on to replace needle/jet o-ring in RH carb today.
Anticipating running in a brand new engine, I bumped the LH carb main to 200 (190 Stock) and the pilot jet to 20 (Stock 15). I'm planning to use the stock -00 box for run-in, but am also anticipating bumping to a Zeel ignition (on-hand) and have seen many advise to jet up, based on the hotter spark.
Comments welcome.
Steve
Finished up the carbs. They are wrapped in plastic and ready for installation.
Took a look at the magneto and flywheel. They both needed cleaning. Found a chunk of factory epoxy had broken off one of the coils. I cleaned off all the schmutz that collected on about half of the exposed metal around the mag with a Dremel polishing head and patched the the one bad spot with JB epoxy. Its the grey piece at 12 o'clock. Ready for installation.
Moving toward sweating in some bearings, tomorrow. Starting with the main case.
Steve
My wife was out for most of the day. Heated the cases to 270 Fahrenheit (133C) in the home's oven. I took great care to vent the oven and the house. Got busted anyway.
Had previously frozen the bearing for about 3 hours in a normal refrigerator's freezer compartment. Some of the bearing were almost drop-ins, others took a bit of gentle encouragement. Nothing went wrong. That said, I used a very thin coating of anti-seize grease on the bearings where they contact the case. Overall: Very happy.
Next time, I'll heat the oven to 320 and use dry ice to freeze the bearings. Is there a point of no return using this process with a domestic oven's temp? I've seen some use heat-guns. Others, propane. One US maintenance professor said the aluminum shouldn't be heated to more than 230F. A UK guy said 160C, which is 320F. I chose the oven, as I wanted to do all the bearings in one session.
One problem. Pushed one seal in too tight and had to pull it back out. (Just the seal, not the bearing.) No damage could be seen on inner lips of the seal, but feel as though I should replace it with a new one. My Yamaha dealer can get seals in about 3 days and doesn't charge shipping. The seals I'm using are from "Simply Bearing" (Thanks, Warwick). It takes about two weeks or more to get stuff from the UK. So, for one seal, I'll bite the bullet and pay retail for a Yamaha part.
Will finish the seals tomorrow and try to get the tranny back in the case.
That's it for today. The Final Four University Basketball teams play in about an hour. For you guys in the US, I live near the border of Indiana and Kentucky. Basketball is a religion. I don't want to lose my righteousness card.
Best to all.
Steve
Haven't thrown cases in the oven yet (not sure if I'll escape unscathed C:-) :)) ) but I reckon not much more than 130 degrees celcius? Wouldnt want to change the aluminium characteristics. I've always just heated the bearing area with a torch but I realise it may not be the best method. All the bearings are pretty easy to get in bar the sprocket side one and the roller bearing on the balance shaft - got a buddy to do them with a press.
Was it the sprocket seal you got in too deep?, I think I almost did that as well haha. By the way, you may want to get the balance shaft seal as an OEM one - It has a different looking lip than off the shelf ones I found. Like it has more surface area for a better seal.
Good progress!
Started today on installing the balance shaft. Ran into a conflict between the service manual and my panic mode. See attached.
The arrow shows a circlip that was not taken off the bike during tear-down and also defies my ability to make sense of it all. According to the diagram this clip should sit behind the seal, ahead of the bearing. Installing this clip would require seating the clip between the bearing and seal. The balance shaft doesn't have a groove cut at the precise spot which would allow such installation. There is a groove that might accept a circlip, but it does not line up with where it has to be between the seal and bearing.
This clip makes no sense, as the balance shaft is secured by a nut and locking washer. A clip is not needed to secure the bearing and would tear up the seal on contact. The bearing is new/solid via interference tolerances.
Can someone validate this is a mistake in Yamaha's documentation or my pea-brain that just can't absorb what the manual is trying to tell me. I'm using the 3XVA-B_workshop_manual_jp. It is more comprehensive than the 3xv1 manual.
Moved on to the transmission. Cleaned and checked each gear and shafts. Using YamamaLube 20W-50 as build oil. Should have the cassette squared away by EOD tomorrow.
Thanks in advance for any knowledge/advice you might offer.
Steve
Quote from: ybk on April 08, 2019, 01:53:21 AM
Haven't thrown cases in the oven yet (not sure if I'll escape unscathed C:-) :)) ) but I reckon not much more than 130 degrees celcius? Wouldnt want to change the aluminium characteristics. I've always just heated the bearing area with a torch but I realise it may not be the best method. All the bearings are pretty easy to get in bar the sprocket side one and the roller bearing on the balance shaft - got a buddy to do them with a press.
Was it the sprocket seal you got in too deep?, I think I almost did that as well haha. By the way, you may want to get the balance shaft seal as an OEM one - It has a different looking lip than off the shelf ones I found. Like it has more surface area for a better seal.
Good progress!
Thanks Karl - Yes, it was the sprocket drive seal that "Fooked" me. HA. I just posted a new conundrum that may require pulling the Balance Shaft Seal. Will go OEM when I order up new sprocket drive seal. I just can't go cheap at this point. Compared to what I've spent in time and money to this point, getting anxious is my/our biggest enemy. It seems obvious that I won't make it to our first track day with the 3xv. Fortunately, my partner will lend me a bike for April 20. Good to have friends who understand our passion for the 3xv. Some for 40 years. Some in New Zealand, The UK, Germany, France, Australia, Japan and other places around the USA.
Thanks for your feedback. Sitting alone in my workshop with the just bike is a wonderful experience, but can lead to feeling isolated when things doen't go well. Yours (and many others) have helped me stay confident moving forward.
My Best . Steve.
Can't take the open engine out the box at the moment (doc says no heavy stuff for a few weeks, hernia op :( ) but going on memory that circlip sits flush on the outside of the roller bearing. It clips into a groove in the cases.
Thanks. Will check out your diagnosis. The clip was not in my bike when disassembled.
Good luck on your surgery. I've been there.
My best. Steve
Quote from: ybk on April 08, 2019, 02:55:08 AM
but going on memory that circlip sits flush on the outside of the roller bearing. It clips into a groove in the cases.
Absolutely right, Karl. I removed the balance shaft seal, which worked in my favor, as the needle bearing hadn't been properly seated below the grove in the case to accept the circlip. It was very close, but not spec. Fixed. Circlip installed. One thing for others is that the opening of the circlip should be set so it doesn't cover any of the oil gallery for the needle bearing. Not a big deal, but....
I also ordered the seal for the balance shaft on your recommendation, so no loss forcing out the generic seal.
Thanks for the quality advice. Glad I caught this now.
Steve
A general question that's easily solved, but it might help others, as it's confusing.
None of the usual parts diagrams show two important parts of the shift-shaft assembly, while the 3xv A&B Manual clearly show a circlip and washer on the inside of the engine case with identifying numbers.
The circlip on my 3xv is clearly suffering metal fatigue, but because there's no listing for the part, I'm going to need to annoy my usual, local supplier for just one clip, assuming they have a metric match.
Does anyone have the Yamaha part number for the circlip? If so, how did you find it?
I can't button up the cassette and cases without feeling confident in this one tiny, fookin' part.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
Thanks for your response Karl. I've attached two new pics that I believe are a bit more clear. In the diagram of the shift-shaft, the groove for the circlip in question is highlighted in red. In the pic from the maintenance manual the circlip and washer are pointed out in red. The shift drum is blue and sits below the shift shaft in this angle.
In the diagram, I cropped off the portion of the parts page that showed the external shifter and linkage. Maybe not the best way to communicate.
Back in the real world: My Yamaha shop didn't have the proper clip in-house. So, I went to my bearing supplier and they hooked me up with what appears to be the proper circlip. Five in fact for one USD. Hopefully, this solves my problem. But for others, getting the proper part numbers would be very helpful.
Appreciate your looking in on my project. Perhaps I'm just wrong. But, I do have the original clip and washer, so these parts do exist.
Steve
Parts 20 & 21 on this page I think, Steve:
Thanks Warwick. OK. I get it now. You and Karl are telling me the washer and clip from the shift drum are the same as those on the shift shaft.
It appears that ybk has deleted his post, which makes my earlier post a bit confusing. I certainly hope I didn't insult him. I just didn't understand what he was trying to tell me.
When I disassembled the bike, I did not take the shift drum apart, so I know those parts weren't confused when reassembling the shift shaft.
I know you guys are accurate, but a normal shmo, such as myself would be very unlikely to have figured this out without help. The maintenance manual suggests replacing every circlip. Wondering why they made it so hard to find their part number to accommodate the manual? Has this been noted before on the Forum? Its a pretty big "gottcha". Was there a reference I missed to these parts being interchangeable excepting here?
I'm done wasting time fretting over this now that have the answers. And, thanks to you and Karl, the Yamaha part number (if needed).
Enjoy what's left of your weekend.
Steve
Warning to others who may wish to disassemble, clean and lube the kick-start lever.
There's a small ball and spring in there that will take-out an eye if not careful. Suggest wrapping a shop rag around the stump and leg when pulling it apart. Putting it back together is the real challenge.
The lever is sold as one part so, there is no exploded diagram to show you what's hiding inside the lever. The lever is also listed as NLA.
Its the little stuff that seems to try this man's soul.
Steve
Have new, OEM balance shaft seal, installed a new countershaft seal and by some miracle, my local Yam dealer had the clutch actuator seal in stock. Looking forward to buttoning up the tranny section soon.
Have business that will delay "the engine build" for 10 days or so, but looking forward to a first track day on 4/20. Will be riding a super-stock spec ZX-600, generously lent to me by my team partner.
This break may be a blessing, following a winter struggle to get this far.
All good. Thanks to everyone who has been interested and offered help on my project.
Steve
Hi Steve
you probably realise anyway but may sure you put that circlip on the shift shaft the correct way around.
It gets a fair bit of pressure during gear changes and if wrong will pop off and you'll loose gear selection.
Ask me how I know...........
Thanks, Jools.
I purchased two (2) thin circlips with the proper ID. They both fit, perfectly into the slot on the shift-shaft. The play at the washer is nice and tight. It feels good, but if that's a bad idea, please tell me which way an OEM clip should be installed. There is always a "sharp" edge and rounded edge to any circlip. Which way is correct? Guessing the sharp edge should be installed toward the washer and seal. Yes?
Thanks for the heads up. I'm not buttoned up at the moment. Good time to correct any bad ideas.
Thanks
Steve
Loving the thread and this project. Do you race this at Putnam Park? I just got myself a project 3XV myself, just east of you over in Ohio (-P)
Thanks for question, good to know about other 2T fanatics near us.
I put in half a lap at Putnam on my partner's ZX-6R. April 20. The temp was 45F, the track wet and the tyres were GPA's. Didn't work well. Rear slid out, low-side, constant throttle at bout 40mph in turn 7 on the first lap. I knew better, but tried to ride out anyway. Came back in the crash truck. A decent bruise or two, broken foot-peg and minor faring scrapes were more demoralizing than tragic.
My 3xv was under a full re-build. I'll have better info about what it's like on my 2T after the late June Track Day at Putnam. Fresh surface. Mostly new bike and new tyres.
Last summer we ran into several "wet" conditions. The 3xv performed as advertised. Very stable and planted.
My new/improved (hopefully) version of the TZR should be good to go in the rain. Planning on Dunlop Q-3+ Tyres.
Thanks for asking. Good luck on your project.
Steve
Its been a few weeks. I just got back into the 3xv this morning. I'm in the assembly process, working on the motor. Of course, I ran into a problem that requires advice. Hope someone has a solution.
The clutch push-rod (Part 25) has two grooves that require shims that are NLA (Parts 26). These shims were not in place when I took the motor apart. I ran the bike all last summer without them.
My questions: What can I do about the NLA parts? Are theses shims much like a fork bushing in that they are segmented for installation? I can obviously run without them, but is this a good idea? I'm this far in. I want to do this right.
Thanks in advance.
The manual is a bit misleading, those are actually 2 o-rings meant for the dry clutch. The wet clutch uses a single washer/shim there (NLA unfortunately). The 3XVAB manual deals with the RS and SP model (the RS being pretty much an R which makes it relevant) so just be aware that some bits may not be applicable.
The 3xv1 parts manual show the correct part:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/3xv1.md.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/nLDw)
The big parts manual shows the different parts for different models:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/partnumbers.md.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/n68q)
The washer you need looks like this:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_2871.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/nFPT)
It has a little notch which I suppose could be an indicator for shim thickness (they came in 3 different sizes according to the parts manual). I don't think it makes a big difference in clutch operation or feel though. If you want I can pop my spare in an envelope for you.
Thanks, Karl. I use the 3xv A/B maintenance manual. My mistake, as I have the (R) manual at hand. Plus, I'm easily confused.
Usually, there's a spec for both the SP and (R)S. Appreciate your clearing this up.
Very kind of you to offer the shim/o-ring. If I can't find a local version, I'll send a PM. I tried some o-Rings in the shop, but this part seems pretty specific.
If it's not too much, I ran into another piece of confusion, today.
Could the clutch diagram be wrong or was my bike improper when I got it?
Here's the reason for my question:
I reassembled the clutch plate stack as shown in the manual, but ended up with two fiber plates. So, reasoning that the clutch worked fine all last summer, I started the stack with a fibre plate and ended with the a fiber plate. The diagram shows that I should start and end with a steel plate.
The simple question is, how many plates of each type should I have? I thought I took great care when taking this bike apart. Apparently, it wasn't good enough. I made no notes on the clutch plate orientation. A good lesson for others.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
Added later: Karl I have that washer that fits the end of the push-rod. Based on the (R) diagram, I'm guessing there is no o-ring/shims to fit the grooves on the push-rod shaft. It also appears that the (R) clutch plate stack starts with a fiber plate. Verification still appreciated.
7 fiber plates and 6 metal plates. Start with the fiber plate. As far as I know you can just put them in. The dry clutch is the one with various different plates and special alignment requirements (dots on the basket etc).
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/63A3B841-DCED-49A0-B43D-A3720C83BD35.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/nafA)
The manual actually talks about the shims, looks like they take up slack in the mechanism (more than 5 degree slack in the actuator?) The 0.4mm shim has one notch, the 0.8mm has 2 and the 1.2mm has none.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/9FD19725-284A-4328-B5EA-1117CB15AD17.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/nhNC)
Thanks again, Karl. Great info. I tried "Google Translate", but never got it to work. I'd better watch the tutorial. Less of a "rookie" move, than having to ask you simple questions.
Enjoy your weekend.
Steve
Clutch and crank installed. I pulled the gears and spacer from my (R) crank, added OEM seals, lined up the sync marks for the balance shaft, set the locating pins and tested the fit with the upper case. Ready to seal it up and get onto cylinders and pistons.
All good.
When torquing down the clutch side of the engine, I made a terrible miscalculation. I used two of the inner hub's support columns to hold the hub tight for tightening. This time I was using a torque wrench to set to the appropriate calibration. Succeeded only in breaking off those two columns. This technique has worked before when taking the clutch apart. Fook. The part is NLA according to Megazip. Does anyone have one to spare?
I'm considering fixing this. How does this sound?:
Thinking about the physics, there doesn't seem to be much torsional stress on those support columns. Only pulling stress. What would happen if I reattached the columns using JB Epoxy, tapped the columns through the bottom of the clutch hub and fit bolts just long enough to hold it all together without contacting the outer clutch hub.
I would only consider this a short-term fix. I really need a new or not-so-used inner clutch hub.
Any ideas are appreciated.
Why are doing that as your technique obviously you've learned the hard way. You need to use a clutch holder tool or at least a old fiber and one metal plate usually screwed together to hold it from spinning.
The springs you finger tight then torque them down.
I use my electric impact and a clutch holder tool to tighten the center nut.
Your idea of jb weld very bad idea they will just snap off again.
Replace it with a non broken one is your best option.
Now that I know its a bad idea, I obviously won't do that again. It worked many times before. Just never with the leverage of a torque wrench. I'm sure you've made a few errors and learned from them. For me, this could be a deal-breaker if I can't find a clutch boss. (3XV-16371-00-00)
Yes, an impact driver capable for being dialed to a torque spec is a good idea. Yes, I need a clutch holder. Your work-around with a drive and driven used clutch pieces screwed together is a good one, except I don't have any used clutch parts.
I wasn't wanting to use JB Weld, but JB Epoxy, I also wasn't going to just use the epoxy. I can tap through the broken stumps and hold it together with epoxy and longer bolts. It still won't be a good as a new clutch boss, but it wouldn't break at the joint, as there's enough metal below the break to get purchase with the bolt. It may be my only hope. I'm also considering a welder, if a new part doesn't show up.
You must have super-powered fingers to start the bolts on the springs. I use a 10mm socket on a short extension to get the bolts/screws started.
Any ideas where to get the clutch boss? is there a cross match? I've sent an email to Webb's, but will need a UK buddy to send it on...assuming Andy can find the part.
I'm hoping there's a Forum Friend who has this spare.
Thank for your response, Rick.
Rising Sun Cycles has the 3xv Clutch Boss in stock. I have ordered same.
It should be in my hands in two days.
http://www.rscycles.com
Will also order the clutch holder tool (Thanks, Rick. I've built many of my own tools. Today my Lexan clutch holder failed miserably. I will take your advice and get the real deal.)
I will proceed to button up the engine, then add clutch.
On the subject of US parts suppliers, I can now recommend >oemcycles<. My chromoly 15T drive sprocket arrived today, as promised. (Thanks Warwick for the EBay link).
Steve
Added on May 30: Just received the TZ 39T Vortex Alloy driven sprocket. I can now recommend >podiumsuperbikeinc<. Again, thanks, Warwick for supplying the link to EBay where I found both "oem" and "podiumsuperbikes".
Yeah I've also invested in some proper engine tools, just makes things much easier (and fewer tears ;)) As Searick mentioned the clutch holder can be made from old metal plates attached to a handle.
To tighten the primary gear on the crank use a soft piece of aluminium ( I use a small piece of flatbar) in between the teeth of the primary gear and clutch basket. That's actually the official yamaha recommended way :))
Then you probably need a flywheel holder as well to get that nut tightened up. I have used the aluminium piece in the primary method in the past but with hindsight that puts a twisting action on the crank so I got a proper tool recently instead.
Karl - Engineering your own tools to do one job, one time seems to make sense....until it causes a irreparable damage. This is the first piece I've actually broken during this journey. Naturally, it was a part that is critical to the 3xv and NLA. Out of full disclosure, I've included a picture of my clutch boss holding tool. No, I did not brace it against the kick-start shaft. I used some short pieces of lumber. Pretty obvious why it failed under the load of attempting to reach the 7.0/kg torque spec.
Currently, wondering if I shouldn't replace the clutch plate stack, as I'm hoping for at least 10 more HP from the mods I've made to the motor. As a bonus, that would give me plenty of old clutch plates to use to make a proper holding tool.
I like to use one-eighth inch Lexan (polycarbonate plastic) to jam the gears during the tightening and loosening processes. That plastic is malleable, very tough and easy to score and break to length. Can't possibly damage the gears.
I have a flywheel puller, but should get the spec'd holder. They seem to be rather universal. Believe there's no need to buy a Yamaha specific tool.
I have also been using anti-seize compound on all the bolts that mount into a thread.
Thanks for following my project and offering support.
Steve
Added May 30, 2019 - Just ordered this tool. It will hold both the Clutch Boss and Flywheel.
I got me a pair like the vise grip style the round posts on the back are flywheel holders.
Yes, Rick. That's why I got this tool. Pretty inexpensive compared to a clutch boss.
Only have cylinders and pistons left to install. Planning on adding carbs after mounting the engine in the chassis. Make sense to you?
Steve
Don't know how bad it is with the R model but on my spr the exhaust flange partially blocks the reed block bolt on the right cylinder. So install the reed blocks and manifolds first then the top ends.
Just make sure you get the cables routed correctly.
As always, thanks. That's what I got from the manual, but it has often been misleading. I'd rather trust a friend who done this many times.
Steve
Update: Big shout to "Rising Sun Cycles". The Clutch Boss ordered on Wednesday was delivered today. RSC is in the US and shipping costs through USPS was minimal. The cost of the part was reasonable considering that it is listed NLA by Yamaha. RSC is highly recommended, but don't expect them to be stocked with many NLA parts. I just got lucky. (Thanks again to Warwick for the EBay link that lead me to RSC.)
Also, a good day in the shop. Started by installing both reed blocks with fresh Boyesen Power Reeds. Yamabond on gaskets and mating surfaces. Inlet rubbers in good shape. Moved onto the upper cylinder. (Thanks to SeaRick for advising me to install reeds blocks before pistons.)
I got the assembly process a bit out of order. 1-base gasket with Yamabond. 2-piston. 3-Cylinder. This seems intuitive, but the gasket is then left sitting there with sealant while struggling with fresh Wossners. The piston to bore tolerances are as tight as they will ever be, so getting the cylinder down over the rings is also made more difficult when trying to lube while avoiding the sealant on the base gasket. The assembly order should be 1-Piston 2 - Gasket with sealant 3- Cylinder.
Break for idea: One of you gurus on this Forum could make a bundle by making "Dave Moss" style videos specific to the 3xv. I spent an entire career directing/writing/editing videos and films of all sorts, but am not the guy for the demos. Back to our regular program.
I used kerosene, brake cleaner, Scotchbite pads and Dremel polishing tool to thoroughly clean the upper power-valve. New, inner rubber o-ring, solid seals and rubber seals installed. That's Martin 77's work you see on modding the PV to match his cylinder porting.
Time to get back to it. Great weather here. A track day looms for June 28.
Some pictures from Today. I'll spare the explanations, because my brain if fried. The right cylinder was much easier than the left, as I used the proper assembly order and figured out how best to work with the piston pin circlips.
Yes, I know the studs for the head are off. I figure when I finish the track day, I'll pull the cylinders, inspect and fix the mis-match, then. All the bolts are torques to spec. Brand new copper crush washers.
Time for a cold one or three.
Steve
No need for the copper washers on the three 'open' nuts, Steve. If you remove them you will get more thread for the nuts to hold on to (-P).
Thanks, Warwick. Interesting fact. The manual doesn't seem to cover this. Looks like I have a few extra washers.
How do you feel about a "3xv You Tube Channel?"
On another subject. At the primary drive there seems to be a mounting point for a plate to protect the seal and bearing from crap flying off the chain. I couldn't find a visual reference anywhere for a plate to fit there and don't have that plate from disassembly.
So, I fabricated a Lexan piece that seems to be missing. What say you?
Thanks for keeping an eye on me.
Steve
I've never seen a motor with a sealing/retaining plate from the factory, Steve, but so long as it doesn't interfere with anything else, your DIY plate will probably do no harm.
Yes, the copper washers are only necessary to seal the studs that sit in the water jacket - that's why those two have the domed nuts too of course.
Ha! I don't really have the time or inclination to make YouTube videos, I'm afraid. Besides, I have a much better face for radio... :))
The ViseGrip clutch/flywheel tool works well.
An impact is great for taking primary, clutch hub, and flywheel nuts off. No need for a holding tool.
To hold a gear, I stick a penny between the teeth, then save them in my collection of old pistons.
I have seen a fiber and metal clutch plate riveted together to make a boss holding tool.
I put my cylinders on over a fresh set of Wossners yesterday. It's a 1991 R model. I learned a couple things:
Best to put the power valves on after mounting the cylinders, as the PV end caps block the two front cylinder nuts.
The base gasket has two coolant holes that look centered, but are not. Installing the gasket backwards partially blocks the coolant.
Thanks Hoatso. I discovered that the vice-grip-like clutch boss holder not only works on the flywheel, but can also be used to hold the drive sprocket. I use a hold-down strap along with my engine stand to keep things anchored when torquing down those nuts that take more than 40nm of pressure.
As explained earlier, I like Polycarbonate plastic to jam the gears, although another veteran warned that when jamming the gears on the end of the crank, you might twist the crank. The manuals advise using a softer metal, to jam gears, so I'm not sure which advice is the best. After breaking one boss hub, I'm liking the holding tool whenever possible.
Yeah, that homemade, drive/driven clutch plate holding tool would have been a much better idea, as would welding an arm to an old metal clutch plate. I actually priced YZ-125 plates, but the cost for an entire stack postponed my having any extra plates to play with.
Yes, on PV installation. Proper torque is very important on the cylinders. Over-tightening can be rough on those parts when the engine gets hot and expands.
The last thing you want is to have a base gasket with sealant being set down on the studs upside down. Dohhhh. I held the crank stationary and put a piece of PC tubing under the piston skirt to keep the piston in place while setting the cylinders over the piston rings. That took a bit to figure out, but made the job so much easier. Looking back, a 1/2" piece of Lexan properly grooved could be used for the whole process. I have a large collection of polycarbonate scraps that make great one-time-only tools.
I've learned a lot with this engine build. Doing some things two or even three times. Only breaking one crucial part.
There are things only an experienced builder would know. The easiest thing to screw-up is getting the dowel pins confused. 2 of the 4 of thicker-wall pins go between the cases and the other 2 between the gear cluster plate and the transmission case. The thinner-wall versions (with exactly the same OD as the thicker ones) go on the 4 of the 8 cylinder studs. Finally 2, even smaller pins anchor the clutch cover to the engine.
My engine is now buttoned up. Things turn clean and smooth. I can get it to shift up three gears by just turning the flywheel. Its got good compression, but haven't tested it with a gauge.
Hope to start it up soon.
Good luck on your project. Thanks for watching my thread. All advice is welcome.
Steve
Interesting problem today, attempting to mount PV sync rod. After driving myself batty trying to figure out why the fooking rod wouldn't line-up (pic attached), it finally came to me. Martin had opened up the exhaust ports and modded the PV's to match, so when the PV's are fully open, the registration marks on the PV no longer line-up with markings on the cylinder and the sync rod is a good 10mm too long for the new porting.
When were the gurus here going to tell me this was going to happen? Please don't take offense. I'm only joking. I couldn't have possible gotten this far without the Top Gun advice from this Forum's experts. But, all you guys who've done this mod have surely run into the same problem. I have read the entire forum over the winter and I really don't remember seeing anything about this issue. What's the solution? An SP sync rod?
I don't know if that's even the right answer though, as the porting Martin uses is his own formula based on the SP specs. My solution would be to cut a section out of existing rod, then sweat solder a 50mm brass sleeve over each end to make the sync rod exactly the right length for my engine.
Sound right? All opinions welcome.
Thanks
Steve
Stop! Don't go breaking anything else unnecessarily, Steve... The Porting/PV mods shouldn't have any impact on the length of the PV link rod?
Try connecting the rod up to the plates either end, then bolt them on to the PVs. Ignore the PV setting guides in the plates and cylinders and use fingers in the exhaust ports to feel for the full open position. Then look at the plate on the lower PV. You will see that it is a two piece part that can be rotated to adjust/match the PV position in the two cylinders. Slacken the adjuster bolt and rotate it so that fully open matches on both cyls and re-tighten (you may need to use something else - or a glamorous assistant - to hold the valves in place while doing this as you will need you fingers to hold the spanners... ;D (-P)
Thanks, Warwick. I haven't done anything radical, waiting for some guidance. I've already worked through most of what you proposed, but didn't try taking up the slack at the lower PV's adjustment points. It just didn't seem as if there's enough slack there to account for extra length of sync rod. "Better to test rather than cut."
After a thorough cleaning and lubing, I double checked all the components in this mechanism. All good per manual.
The picture I sent was with the lower PV adjusted, as it was when I disassembled it. Both cylinder's PV's were set at full open. Validated digitally. (Fingers)
Of course, I trust your wisdom on this. I'll hit the shop with a fresh attitude tomorrow and test your suggestions.
Thanks again for such a quick response. It's late where you are. Most appreciated.
Steve
PS - My wife has been a major sponsor of this adventure. She would be my glamorous assistant. I'm more than a lucky man.
Yeah, just hook up the connecting arm loosely to start with. Once the engine is in the frame with the PV motor hooked up then start looking at getting the adjustment right. Also ensure you get the right cable on the correct pulley slot on the PV and the corresponding correct slot on the PV motor. Don't put the exhaust on yet. The aim is to get the PV's do their ignition on cycle and come to rest in the open position.
You will need to adjust and experiment until you get it right. Feel with your fingers if the PV sits flush with the exhaust port. The adjustment will be on the cables and the lower cylinder PV pulley. Be mindful of the cable tensions, you don't want it too tight on fully closed or open.
Thanks, Karl. I'm familiar syncing the PVs, but not from a fresh rebuild with custom porting. I understand that the stock registration marks are no longer accurate for getting the PVs sync'd poperly. Appreciate your tip on manual adjustment with the servos hooked up. I need to get the engine in the chassis to run the drill you've shared.
That said, several set backs on this build have occurred because I've been too anxious to move forward. I'll take my time. Hoping to test the PV's by Tuesday (6/11).
I'm planning on all of the run-in being done with the stock -00 CDI. Once I get the jetting dialed, will move to the Zeel unit in hand. I will probably wait until after the 6/28 track day for the Zeel installation and its attendant tuning options.
My stock 28mm carbs have been jetted up to #20 pilots and #200/270 mains. Running premix. Castrol A-747. 20:1 for first 5 heat cycles, then 30:1 for first ride.
I'm a bit away from that "first kick", but much closer than a few weeks ago.
Thanks, again to you and all the Top Guns on the Forum for advice and encouragement. Invaluable.
Steve
Just to echo what the others have said about the pv set up, it won't be far out at all. Probably easiest to use the marks initially to match them, then give the cables a little tweak for that final match to the ports.
Also, don't worry too much about the extra oil for break in, everyone I know just uses the same mix as normal running.
Thanks, Martin. I'm on my way to the shop now. As you can see by the picture, the sync rod was far enough off center to cause my question.
I've been very sparing with the 2T build-oil. Mostly out of expense (in the US, A-747 is almost 50USD/liter). Yeah, believe it was Phil who first mentioned just using the 20:1 mix for engine build out. I'm using a small syringe meant for children. Drip. Smear. That's it.
Good to have you looking in me.
Steve
Gentleman - Thanks, again. As you can see, you were correct. However, with the PV's aligned properly much of the adjustment on the RH cylinder was used up, as suspected. But, there was obviously no reason to go radical to fix things. I tried to be as accurate as possible to show that the registration points "almost, but not quite" line-up, as on a stock bike.
Warwick - Your emergency post was absolutely on-point. I've thanked you so many times, just take it for granted, this time. Roger?
Karl - Will follow your advice for final PV sync. Most helpful, as it would have been easy to install the expansion chambers, only to want a more precise answer. Did you write code that sends out an emergency text message..."The Yank is about to do something ill-advised?" Seriously, You've done such a great job with the site, a cyber "Bat Signal" wouldn't surprise me.
Martin - Glad you jumped in. Your opinion is always highly valued. Believe I'll use a felt-tip maker for the temp registration points. Because the PV's were sync'd when it let go, I should be close when I "dry-test", per Karl's suggestion.
Have good week, boys.
Steve
New question: I bought four new OEM water jacket head studs. All good, except one mount point on the lower cylinder was significantly "looser" than the others. I was able to finger thread it past the stock position. Now, that the engine seems almost ready for re-installation, these little details need a solution.
Normally, I would use Teflon Tape on the threads in this kind of situation, but am concerned that the heat of a cylinder might change the dynamics of a method normally associated with a plumbing fix.
Is the torque of the head bolts enough to hold it all together? Physics says, "Yes." But, I'm hoping for more expert validation.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
You can add a drop of thread lock to help hold the stud in, leave to go off, then should be fine when you put the nut on. The threads can get a bit worn once they go through the plating process a few times.
Thanks, Martin - Appreciate knowing the "why". I have "Blue" Lock-Tite. Easy solution.
I cleaned all the studs. They went in as you would expect. Got temped to buy a stud extractor/mounting tool, but the jammed nut method saved significant beer money.
Steve
I used a good bit of Blue Lock Tite. Let it sit half an hour. Very tight fit. Thanks, again Martin. Torqued head and was able to mount the engine in the frame with the help of my track day partner. (That's him in the background he has a track prepped Ninja 400 and a fully built, super-sport spec ZX-6R).
I attempted to wire-up part of the loom and CDI in order to set power-valve sync, but the battery was dead. Had it on a good trickle charge all winter, but....I reconnected it to the charger, but will probably need a new battery.
I know the 3xv can run without a battery, but the PV's won't cycle for shop-syncing without one. I'll search the Forum for battery recommendations.
Today was a major moment. Thanks to all of you who have helped get me this far.
Steve
Looking good, Steve! 8). As a stop-gap you can temporarily hook up any 12v battery to simply cycle/set the PVs of course. Looks like you might have couple of potential donors in the workshop there... :)
Yes. I was thinking of using a "jump" from the 400, but didn't ask my partner for permission while he was here today.
He'll say yes, as we consider team assists mutual possessions. That said, his overall generosity should not be taken for granted. He is the one who purchased the 3xv and then sold it to me for an extreme discount. I paid for all the upgrades, before and after the crank let go.
I'll ask to pull his battery before testing on the TZR. I don't want to jeopardize his bike's wiring loom.
Thanks for your kind words and continued support.
Wish me luck.
Steve
All you'd need is some jump leads connected to your battery terminals for about 5 seconds to set the servo at full open.. if you wanted to run the bike without a battery full time, then remember you'll have to get a capacitor to replace it with, rather than just not fit it.
Good Luck! (not that you'll need it)
Yeah, I rethought the need to actually disconnect a donor bike's battery, Martin. A jump won't fry anything on his bike. Thanks for the reminder about needing a capacitor, but I plan to run a battery just on the chance that I might want to reconnect the oil pump and want that oil warning light.
I'll be using the stock clocks for run-in and first track day.
I really don't need a neutral indicator, but it's somewhat reassuring when engaging the system for starting.
I've been out most of the day, hope to set PV's, later though.
My best.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on June 12, 2019, 08:31:48 PM
Yeah, I rethought the need to actually disconnect a donor bike's battery, Martin. A jump won't fry anything on his bike. Thanks for the reminder about needing a capacitor, but I plan to run a battery just on the chance that I might want to reconnect the oil pump and want that oil warning light.
I'll be using the stock clocks for run-in and first track day.
I really don't need a neutral indicator, but it's somewhat reassuring when engaging the system for starting.
It's an academic point really, but the oil and neutral lights still work fine with a capacitor fitted (once the engine is running in any case). My understanding though is that the Zeel doesn't like a no battery set-up, so that would be more of a consideration for your planned set-up I think? You should be able to source a suitable 3XV spec battery relatively cheaply in the states if yours is toast I expect as they have been used on a range of other small bikes. The code is (G)T4B-5 -the brackets because different manufacturers use a different initial letter in the code.
Getting close to start up. Exciting times! (-P)
Understand, Warwick. Thanks for reminding me about the Zeel deal. Yes, my battery died over the winter despite being tended by a Nocco 1100. Pretty sure I can find a supplier in the US.
Believe I knew that about the clocks working regardless of battery power. I still just like seeing the lights come on before I start. A bit of OCD, maybe.
Yes, getting close to a first kick. The "jump" from the ZX got the Pv's to cycle. The sync was perfect (finger tested), but opened just a bit too far on both cylinders. Smooth action. (Thanks, Martin) Will adjust and test again.
Good to feel the bike actually turn-on for the first time in eight months.
Great to have friends never meet pulling for me. It means a lot.
Steve
Good progress. Quick question. Because I'm going with pre-mix, I'll need to block-off the injection inlet on the reed block. I have couple of rubber block-offs nubs, but am questioning if I should tie off the block-offs with safety wire. Its there enough back pressure there to make a difference? The block-off were a tight fit.
I want to leave the injection port in place for easier conversion back to stock if needed.
Thanks
Steve
I use the same 2 stroke pipe, cut short then blocked with some black silicone and just re-use the metal clips that are there as stock to keep it in place. New 2 stroke pipe is quite a tight fit on that outlet so I don't think it's a risk.
Thanks Karl. I figured it would be a simple solution. Just wanted some reassurance. This bike gets a pretty thorough tech inspection at the track. Can't have a leak.
Have a good one.
Steve
Based on the fresh powder-coated frame and bead blasted engine, every old part I start to re-install looks dirty, corroded or just plain ugly. I'm not building out a concourse bike, but old chain lube and obvious crap must be cleaned up. This is keeping me from having the bike on its wheels. That, and I decided to powder-coat the triple clamps and bolt-on engine mounts. They will be in my hands on Wednesday. This "clean-up" syndrome is probably pretty common. Its the right thing to do, but not necessary to get the bike running and tested before a track day that's exactly two weeks away.
I also need help in getting the bike off the stand and onto rear and front stands for the finishing touches. My Partner will be here Monday...or I could guilt-trip my son into helping. Tomorrow is a Holiday in the US called "Father's Day." He might fall for it, but he's a father, too with two little ones.
The fact that this is my biggest problem in life at the moment, makes me a very lucky man.
Cheers to all. Happy "Father's Day" to all US Fathers.
Steve
Of course, if you have the part out, you have to clean and inspect it. Other way to proceed would be iresponsible and clumsy way of working.
Your doing the right thing. (-P)
Thanks, Casual. I'm on my way to get all new hose clamps and hex bolts.
Fabricated a cover and gasket for the oil pump.
The bike is now on floor stands. Rear drive bolts soaking in kerosene. I tend to use it, spray brake cleaner, soap and water and ammonia window cleaner along with tooth brushes, metal brushes, Scotch-brite pads and a Dremel course, polishing do-nut.
I've re-painted the rear cage and all the brackets. Waiting on triple clamps to get the chassis together.
Then rig up a remote pre-mix delivery system, add coolant, tranny oil and test the engine.
Appreciate your support and encouragement.
Steve
Good Evening (Barely)
First a question, then progress report.
Just realized my air box has 3xv2 stamped on top. Does this designation mean it came from the '91 SP model? I should have taken a shot of the snorkel. It fills the area allotted by the molding of the air box lid. I remember finding 3vx2 stamped on my cases, but that turned out to be of no particular value, as I was told there's no such thing as a 3xv2 unique case. According to all I've read here, the air-box lid, however is unique to an SP model.
The rest of the pics show some final detailing work and one important new part. Not much left to do, except thoroughly clean the wheels. Then check all torque settings
If the coating guys are on-time tomorrow, the bike will be on its wheels, Thursday.
Steve
Yes, 3XV2 would suggest the SP airbox lid - you can confirm by removing the lid and checking that there is no taper on the intake snorkel. In some dyno testing years ago, I found that using the SP upper airbox lid gave some small gains on my set-up with porting/pipes/sugo igntion etc., so it's a boon to already have that. The ir box (or the lid at least) must have been swapped at some point in the bike's life I guess? Anyway, useful. You might also want to consider making new air filters from some freer flowing foam too? A guy in the States used to sell them pre-cut from suitable foam, but the last I bought were probably 5 or 6 years ago, so no idea if he still lists them?
That's exciting, Warwick. Surprising free upgrade following several moments of frustration. Thanks for the confirmation. I'll check under the hood and into the filters, but you convinced me (earlier) that keeping the filters and air box will make my tuning from this point easier and the results, more stable.
Now, all I have to do is get her running. I have new 10 series plugs, but wondering if another, hotter plug wouldn't be better for start-up. I will be at the Yamaha Shop tomorrow. Any advice?
Thanks for your help and insight. Always good for confidence, specifically at this point.
Steve
Many of us have a signature to our posts and comments. Some, direct. Some, blunt. All descriptive of our pain, frustration and love of a truly unique motorcycle.
Approaching the moment of truth with an eight month build, I thought you might be interested where my signature originated:
https://youtu.be/cfkHnKY8lhQ
Personally, I'd just use the old plugs for initial start up and testing etc. The motor might want the 10s later when you change the ignition and are pushing the power up a bit though.
With the over-oiling and richer jetting you are proposing to start with there is more chance of fouling a plug than with the old set-up course, so it might be useful to have a spare pair of cheap 9s in your back pocket if doing any short initial road tests on an untried set-up?
Makes sense. I was using Irridium 9's. The one from the blown cylinder looks OK. Will get a few stock 9's for back-up.
Thanks
Iridiums are for 4T's. Nothing wrong with BR10ES for track or BR9ES for the road. Zeeltronic recommend the R plugs although I thing I ran simple B9ES on mine without any issues. The ECU low voltage elements are so far away from the coils/plugs I don't think it's an issue, unless you have relocated everything everything behind the clocks/under the tank, where it might be an issue. Not sure TBH
Thanks, Phil. I picked up two pair of BR9ES. My Yamaha Shop does not have non-resister plugs. The ECU is still located in the back (the stock length cabling), but moved to where oil reservoir used to be. I used the Irridiums all of last summer without incident, but they are far more expensive, so no point in defending them.
Wish me luck. This first kick is starting to loom very large.
Steve
All the parts are now in the Shop. Glad I chose to wait on the triple clamps. My local blasting/powder-coating guys did a great job. I also had the secondary engine mounts blasted and coated.
Of course, I ran into a problem: Fitting coated motor mounts to an already tight tolerance engine mounting system.
Solution: Loosened lower primary engine mount. Measured studs. Drilled out secondary mounts to match. Added finesse and all is good.
Let's pause here for a salute to Yamaha. As with a hundred pieces, parts and fitments I've encountered on this journey, the engineering was/is precise. Design, brilliant. Execution remains frozen as state of the art. The factory had no idea I would want to powder coat their products. I'm not even sure if powder-coating was even marginally affordable in 1991. I've owned and loved bikes from all of the "Big Four". Based on this specific 3xv surviving this far and it providing an unequaled riding experience 28 years later...Yamaha wins.
Back to the Future: As you can see the triple clamps were masked, so I don't expect any problems getting the bike on its wheels tomorrow.
Steve
Don't forget to remove the powder coat from the bearing and seal mounting faces on the triple clamps, Steve, (the lower clamp primarily) or you will have hours of 'fun' trying to get the steering bearings set correctly.
Good point, Warwick. Its been done. Used paint stripper and a course Dremel polishing drum. Same technique that Karl suggested I use on the swinger.
There was no coating on the stem. Just the lower bearing contact point. Sorry. That pic I posted wasn't lit very well.
This is my lunch break. I've attached a couple of pics that might be interesting. I discovered that the clutch boss holding tool also works great to cinch down the steering stem lock nuts. Also, and even more helpful and efficient....by using a heavy washer, the lower bearing could be pulled back into position on the steering stem. The whole process only took about 20 minutes. The bearing was under no more stress in the race (both new) than when in use. I removed the upper bearing, so that the frame took the load when tightening.
Was able to mount the front wheel. The steering is solid and smooth. Yes, I know the clip-ons are too low.
Thanks for looking in on me. Back in.
Steve
That's good progress, getting close now. Good idea with the stem nut, better than the destructive flat head screwdriver and hammer method :)) The yamaha tool costs 60 or 70 dollars, I have picked up a 30mm deep socket and plan grind some slots into it, hopefully it works for a 1/4 of the cost of the yamaha tool (the advantage is you can then torque it correctly, the manual talks about a 2 stage process, torque, loosen and torque again)
For the 2T pump plate you can also the yamaha plug that's meant to plug it from the sugo manual. Then use a small arm or plate to keep it in place. (last number is a 7)
Yes. Using the clutch boss holding tool, only allows tightening to the point the "holding washer" slips into the grooves on the steering stem nuts. Concerning pulling the bearing into place: Your socket idea would be ideal. Plus, as you say, "Torque Setting can be more accurate when tightening the steering stem nuts."
Its rather interesting that this ViceGrip-like multi-tool that holds the Clutch Boss, The Flywheel, The Drive Sprocket and the Unique Steering Stem Nuts...Can replace hundreds of dollars of Yamaha tools, all for about $8 USD. (The price of six, good 12oz. German Pilsners). Plus, shipping was free.
I have a plate cut to fit over the oil pump mount and was considering using Yamabond to seal the custom cover. I thought about using a rubber grommet to hold back any pressure, but a full plug would be ideal.
Attached is the bike on two wheels...well, on the wheels of roll-around stands, but with two wheels mounted to the chassis.
Thanks for your all ideas and support.
Steve
Good progress!
A simple DIY gasket paper gasket generally suffices to seal the oil pump cover so long as the cover you've made is flat and of a reasonable thickness so it doesn't distort when fitted. There's very little oil pressure on it.
The plate is cut from 1/8" average grade aluminum. A bit rough, but flat. Cutting a gasket should be relatively simple.
Thanks.
Getting the 110 gas today. Aiming at an attempted start on Sunday.
Based on a recommendation from a 3xv porting guru, I bought this:
Leaded no Ethanol. Brewed by Sunoco. 5 gallons.
About $10/gallon USD. You have to buy this in these containers or 55 gallon drums. It is illegal to be distributed at pumps.
At least I'll have the best pre-mix possible. Let's hope my build is worthy.
Steve
Waste of cash if your compression isn't high enough to take advantage of the higher octane race gas. If you want to run a higher octane gas see if you can find any local stations that sell 100 or 101 unleaded dot race gas it's ethanol free.
Usually gas stations by airports tend to carry it and it's a bit cheaper per gallon than say leaded 110 race gas.
I don't know how your engine is setup but I'm sure you can get by using just pump 91. If you want ethanol free pump gas the best places for that are co op's like farmer co op's that sells gas they have it for small engine use.
Also is that in a plastic drum?! Because if it is you can expect it to start breaking down and about every 30 days it will lose 1 octane point it should be in a metal drum to keep it sealed from outside atmosphere properly.
Great info, Rick.
Leaded was recommended for its anti-detonation and added lubrication for a first start and run-in. After the overall investment in this engine, I'd rather error on the safe side. A small percentage of the total $$$.
This gas will be mixed and used within the month. Assuming the start and run-in all go my way.
We can get 90 octane, non-ethanol at pumps near my home. I was using that with my injection system before the crank let go.
My current situation will be pre-mix and the build involves skimmed heads, Wossner pistons in an all new upper and lower end, so compression on start-up should be at the Max.
Yeah, it might be a waste of money, but I trust my porting guy. His last name is "77".
I also trust you, but extra octane can't hurt anything...except my debit card.
Thanks for looking out for me. Stay with me. I'm approaching a moment of truth.
Steve
Yeah I said to use the 110 octane because at least you know for sure it won't detonate.. gives that extra bit of safety when dialling things in. Also he could only get 90 octane, which might be a bit borderline.. so given the choice... (over here we rate octane in a different way, and so it can be tricky to gauge what's what)
Of course you can blend it 50/50..
For first gentle running then the 90 would be fine, it's only when you start working the motor hard that you'll need the higher octane.
You must be getting nervous Steve! keep an open mind, often there's a couple of things that need tweaking after the initial start up.
Thanks, Martin. Glad you jumped in. Yes, I'm anxious/nervous. More about, "what did I forget?", as much as finding things that might need fixing or tweaking. All my attention has been/is on the engine and wiring. I'll double check new fabrications and chassis torque settings once I know it runs.
I'm going to follow the run-in procedure we discussed.
I've rigged up a remote pre-mix dispenser to keep a close eye on the engine bay for that first start and heat cycles. If not today, tomorrow.
A good day to all. Time for work.
Steve
Its ready for fluids, pipes and first kick. Spent time today chasing gremlins in the wiring. I had cleaned up the harness last summer. All was good...then. Today, I couldn't get the clock circuits to fire up. Not good, as I'll need to depend on the temp gauge for these first heat cycles. Finally, traced to down an open ground.
Went about installing other more mechanical stuff. Cut another, more substantial oil pump cover (Thanks Warwick. Your response about having a solid, flat surface for a paper gasket made sense.) and tried to strategize what needed to be finished and what might be best left undone before this start-up. Parts such as right foot-peg and brakes aren't necessary...and keep the temptation to ride before these heat cycles are finished to a non-event.
Here's to smoke, tomorrow.
Steve
Edit: Yes, I will add airboxes and filters before attempting start-up.
Wow.. that's looking great Steve!
You don't have to worry about the airboxes for the first start, it'll fire up just fine.... less things in the way too!
Yeah. As you've pointed out before, there's a real need to examine all the places that might show problems. Avoiding the air-boxes also gets me along the path more quickly.
Thanks.
Steve
They do this ron number plus the mon number added together then divide the numbers by 2 to get the octane rating here. They claim it's a more accurate octane level measurement.
From what i have figured our premium 92 is equal to 95 ron.
No joy for first kick. Rigged up a gravity feed for 500 ml of premix. About 5 seconds later the front carb just dumped the fuel mix straight through to the floor.
No way was I gonna try to ignite anything near, let alone try to kick it. I parked the bike near two large sliding doors. The floor's almost dry.
Good advice, Martin. "Be ready for problems." This has to be the float bowl jet, but it also drained from the line in the center of the carb. There were air bubbles in the upper (yellow) vent tube. The top carb is dry.
Any other diagnostic ideas are appreciated.
Thanks for the intel on octane Rick. It means more to the boys in the UK, but more is better less when it comes to knowledge, Yes?
I'll send some pics when I get back to the house. Right after a cold one.
Steve
One 12oz. Coors Beer Later: Here's a few pics. I know that those who have been following my project will know which vent hoses I was discussing, but the arrows might help other when they encounter an over flow. Fortunately, I was anticipating such an issue. My carbs were surgically cleaned and bagged. But, that was 4 months ago. I quote my favorite Forum signature: "its always fucking something."
Good evening to all.
Assuming it's not a physical carb rebuild error or damage, I'd expect it's just tank rust particles/debris on the float needle valve? A quick blast through the carb fuel intakes with carb cleaner may sort it if it is just debris in the valve preventing it from closing effectively. This is not uncommon after disrupting the fuel system in my experience. It's always worth a good clean of the tank and fuel lines too of course.
I'd likely just push it outside and start it up regardless of the leak, myself >:D. The flow of fuel through the valves will often shift the debris if that is all that's causing the overfilling of the carb. Always worth checking that you remembered to replace (and tighten) the carb drain screws too of course, ahem... :))
So close you can smell it - even if it's only spilled fuel you can smell so far... ;D ;)
The humor is most welcome, Warwick. I needed that. Dragging that rig outside would have been hilarious to watch.
The carbs haven't been near a fuel tank since 9/11/18, but Yes, some crap could have worked it's way into the float needle valve...or it could have been me.
I've got spray carb cleaner and some XXX stuff to dunk it in if needed.
Tomorrow, I'm going to pull the carb, clean it and bench test before moving it back to the bike.
I only bought one liter of A747. It costs the same as 5 gallons of leaded 110. Can't afford to spill it, even at the small amount of mix I'm using.
Thanks, again for chiming in. For the record: "110 octane leaded doesn't even smell like what I know as gasoline...and VICTORY remains a mirage on the horizon."
Steve
I'm with Warwick.. turn the fuel off, roll it outside and give it a few kicks, it'll soon clear the excess fuel.. but we're both experienced at dealing with crappy old bikes that don't behave themselves!
Sometimes a tap on the side of the carb with a screwdriver can help the float valve free itself if it's flooding (sometimes they can 'jam' slightly), or a small bit of grit is enough to hold it, but not a big problem.
Fuel coming out of the upper vent tube as well as the lower overflow tubes suggests that the float valve is definitely not shutting off properly. It won't have had chance to back fill fuel to the upper carb if it was running straight out of the lower carb I expect, so if on inspection you find that there is any issue with the float valve, or your assembly of it, it might be worth checking the upper carb for the same issue too before attempting the start?
It can be worth routing the overflow hoses directly in to a catch tank for the initial start up at least to prevent getting fuel everywhere if there are issues. As yours is a track bike it's 'best practice' to run such a catch tank on the bike in use too really - slippery stuff, premix, so you don't want to be spewing any on the track if you have any overflow issues in use (-P).
Thanks guys.
Martin: I'll try to start it before tearing into the carb. Tapping the float bowl is a nice, easy fix idea.
Warwick: My confusion is that the carbs were OK when the crank let go. Then, even though they were OK, I stripped them completely and dunked them in really HD carb cleaner, followed by spray and air blasts. The passages were all clear when I reassembled them and stored them in plastic zip-locks.
That said, re-assembling the TPS and RH carb body took awhile. I could have easily introduced a fragment of something back into the system.
I have two big aluminum catch trays ready. Will rig up a catch bottle for the track.
I'll be back in the shop within the hour.
Watch this space.
Steve
Bear in mind that the sealing tip of the shut off valve and the O ring seal are used to spending their life with fuel sloshing around them, Steve. They may shrink/harden a bit when not in their usual environment. (-P)
All just part of the usual, expected, post-rebuild teething issues really.
If this is the worst of it you will be able to consider yourself very lucky. :)
I had same thing happen to me couple months ago. My 06 yz144 had been sitting for about the same amount of time.
I didn't even touch the carb i had just installed a new top end.
I went to start it and I turned the petcock on a few minutes before hand and it started pissing out my trick 110 out the over flow tube.
I still started it up and did my first heat cycle on it. While running it wasn't flowing out the overflow. I pulled the carb cleaned it out and it fixed it for the most part.
I was still getting a slow but steady drip out of it. But i did another heat cycle and it cleared up but it would still drip some when leaned over to the left side.
I said f it, it's not that bad I'm going riding tomorrow guess it will just leak a little bit when I turn left. I'll fix it better after this ride it fixed it's self after riding it a bit.
But i was thinking it might have been the parts that Warwick mentioned may had finally worn out and the float wouldn't sit right.
Seems everyone is right. All three of you suggested or did what actually solved my problem. Just start it up.
Using only the choke. No added fuel. It chuffed on fourth kick and found idle (tick-over) on kick number six. No overflow, but then there was probably very little fuel in the float bowl. I was getting exhaust pulses from both cylinders. Major moment.
Stopped. Took a breath and mixed up some new fuel. 17ml (A747) to 500ml (Unleaded 110). Loaded my remote fuel reservoir and turned it on for about 5 seconds. No overflow. Exactly what Warwick, Martin and now, Rick had mentioned might work. Kicked it over with fuel flowing. One kick, still on choke, and it jumped to a 3000 rpm idle. A twist of the throttle snapped up the revs, idle returned to around 1500. Hallelujah. Only took it to 5000, still on the choke. Revved freely and very snappy. Got it up to about 50C. Smelled like 2T Woodstock.
One new anomaly. The tach was reacting funky. Dropping to zero, then showing proper revs. Time to hook up the air-boxes, run another test/heat cycle, then finish the chassis build.
I've sent along two very short videos from this morning. Hope you enjoy.
Thanks is not enough. But, its all I've got.
Steve
Great stuff! Like a newborn drawing its first breath - albeit a slightly smoky one...
Assuming you have a battery fitted, tach issue will likely be found by tracing the orange wire from the tach unit to the upper cyl coil it takes its signal from. If you don't have a battery fitted - or the battery is very flat - that itself will explain the tach issue I expect.
Sounds like you won another beer today? Cheers! 8)
Just read your entire thread in preparation for my 3XV2 project.
After finishing off a year long RZV500R rebuild just a few months ago, I completely understand what you feel like when you hear your bike running on it's own again. (-P)
The anticipation of the first ride is hard to describe ....
It' hard to keep the revs down during break in when the bike feels so good....best of luck on that ride
HA. Labor Pains are right. Hearing it scream was a real thrill. Found myself wanting to take the day off. I'm ready for that beer, though. Thanks.
The battery is brand new, fully charged. I didn't ground out the side stand cut-out switch wire coming from the CDI, however. Can't see how that would matter, but.... The orange wire on the (LH) Cylinder coil is properly installed. Will trace it down to see if it been effected by re-attaching the loom.
Have a couple of new questions from the rest of my day. Found a slight fuel leak where the boost bottle joins the rear reed cage. The leak was not as bad on the second heat cycle, but it could leak down to the pipe. N/G. It would seem that there's a lot of pressure at that joint (pic attached). I disassembled and cleaned the mating surfaces, then put a bit of Yamabond on the boost bottle mounting tube. re-installed clamp. Any opinions?
Secondly, the motor heats up much faster, now. Got to 75C in about 3 minutes. It's tolerances are very tight at the moment, but I know its getting oil and coolant (checked the drain on the lower cylinder), plus it would seem the thermostat wouldn't report a temp at all unless coolant was flowing. I used Engine Ice and distilled water (50/50). The radiator started topped up, its now down about 6-8cm from full. It was about 28C here today. Should I be concerned?
Busa - Thanks for taking interest in my project. Betting that RZV 500 was a trying build. I'm in a Facebook group that features guys building out YZR Replicas. Many use TZR 3ma frames as a base. Some of those bike are priced at $100K.
Really hoping your swing-arm wasn't as afflicted as mine. Best of luck. I'm glad to accept PM's, but I'm a total rookie compared to some of the guys on this forum. You've probably figured out who they are, if you read my entire project. They are the best friends I have never meet.
Steve
I use engine ice all the time but never mix it with water. Doesn't engine ice say not mix it with anything? And just run it straight.
Oh, Fuck. I thought all track oriented coolants could be diluted with distilled water. Do you believe that could have caused this fresh engine to heat up too quickly? I didn't run it above 75C.
Thanks for your response, Rick. I won't start it again until I get more Engine Ice.
What about the leaking boost bottle. Any concerns?
Steve
Added later: Rick. You are right. The Engine Ice bottle says that it doesn't need to be diluted (even with distilled water), because it's already diluted with deionized water. Adding other water may contribute to it not working as it should. I don't believe I did any damage, but will drain what's in the engine and use 100% EI. Thanks, again.
Maybe tge clamp has stretched out and it's not clamping tight enough. I would try that first if not cracks where present.
No cracks, the clamp seems tight. It was a bitch to get back in place. Perhaps, I should not originally used a bit of grease as a sealant. That 110 might have dissolved it and helped cause the leak.
I'll know tomorrow...
Thanks for your opinion.
Steve
It's not unusual to need to top up the coolant after first start as it begins to circulate properly. Keep an eye on it though, obviously - maybe just use plain water for the testing phase as you may need to drain and ditch the 'test' coolant if needing to da any additional work?
Can't see from the pic what the problem is with the intake, but any leaks there will need to repaired prior to using the motor under any stress of course.
As I said earlier, all just the usual teething gremlins, really. Keep at it.(-P)
Mostly good news. The leak at the RH boost bottle is solved. No leaks or overflows. After the forth heat cycle the engine seemed happy to settle in around 60-65C. Have a few fueling issues that I've seen before, but may be due to new reasons.
Still getting tons of smoke, even when engine is hot. It revs with enthusiasm from 3-7K, but only idles on choke, before dying. It will not idle with no choke. I've been running these heat cycles with no air-boxes. The bike could have ingested a piece of crud. This all reminds me of clogged idle and pilot circuits, but I'm also jetted rich from stock. (20 Pilot). Feel I need to pull the carbs, hook-up the air-boxes and try the actual fuel tank.
I'm not feeling particularly comfortable about getting the bike ready for the track this weekend. Can't feel too bad, the bike looks good and the engine seems ready to be massaged. Well done, Martin.
Fortunately, my track day partner will lend me his ZX-6R.
All opinions welcomed.
Steve
They will idle easier after the engine breaks in more just turn up the idle adjustment a little higher than usual for now. Every one I've rebuilt has been that way for the first couple hundred miles until it free's up it's a brand new engine it's tight. It will also run better with the air boxes in place i believe as well.
Thanks, Rick. Your experience is highly appreciated.
I will do the next heat cycle with air boxes and filters, but can clean the pilot and idle circuits first with relative ease, as it's still "open" in the engine compartment. Seems like a good idea at this point.
Yes, the engine is tight. Cylinders were matched to Wossners by PowerSeal. Brand new SP crank. All new bearings and seals throughout.
I have two days to run one more heat cycle and attempt a test ride or two with increasing rpm. If things progress, I'm tempted to test it "gently" on the track, but don't want others to suffer. I do have a back-up ride, so pay-to-play is not the issue.
Should I leave the jetting as it is:
20 pilot, stock needle in middle groove, 200/270?
I also installed Boyesen Reeds. They make note that, "the bike needs to run richer".
I'm also still running the stock throttle cable. The PV and Oil Pump leads are disconnected and tied down to cause no interference.
Thanks again, Rick.
The motor being newly assembled with a few new parts shouldn't really have any impact at all on basic running, tickover, etc. That's more likely just a set-up thing I'd think. The excessive smoke is likely just the rebuild oil coupled with the very rich 20:1 fuel/oil mix you talked about using? 30:1 is more than enough oil and it will be much smokier with that mix at lower revs than with the pump of course in any case. The bigger pilots will have an impact on lower RPM running and tickover too. Though the poor tickover you mention suggests that something is perhaps amiss in the carbs. All you can do is work through things methodically to sort that.
If running the same basic set-up as before in terms of airboxes, pipes and ignition, then the jetting probably won't be far out, but you'll need to plug chop really to get a better idea of how it is at heavy loads. I'd be reluctant to use it under any sustained loads on the track until confident that the jetting was safe myself.
I'm with Warwick, try 30:1 oil mix. And as you say, check the pilot jets for cleanliness, then fact it needs choke to idle etc means its too lean. That bit of dirt that made it flood initially could now be wedged in one of them. I'm not sure of pilot jet sizes offhand, but going back to stock might be an idea.
Are the needles in the stock position?
Thanks gentlemen. My original plan was to use 20:1, but believe I mixed 30:1. 17ml to 500ml in my remote tank. Yes, I did not spare the build oil, but that should have burnt off by now, I believe.
You've both convinced me that there's something going on in the float bowl cavities. (Pilots) Will start there.
The needles are in stock positions. I can't help but think doing these heat cycles with open carbs would lean things out. My next test will be with air boxes and stock tank.
Yes. It all seems as if it's just working the basics at this point.
My Best.
As you are going in in any case, I'd suggest re-fitting the stock pilots too as a test - and setting both air screws at 1.5 turns out as a stating point. It won't need pilots bigger than stock for the basic testing, and it's always useful to limit the variables when chasing running faults of course.
I'm right in the middle if the carbs clean/inspection. Good time to return pilot jet to stock. I've also upped the mains from 260/190 to 270/200. I believe your earlier advice was to go rich on the mains. I haven't turned the throttle more than half open, yet. Believe I'll keep them slightly richer than stock for now, but will follow your advice about pilots and air jets.
Discovered some interesting rust under the hold down plate for the float needle jet cradle in both carbs, but far more dramatic in the RH/Lower carb. That could have been the source of the that which was causing the original overflow. I'm more prone to believe your theory of the float needle cradle rubber o-ring being dry. Believe I'm due a couple of new float needle cradles. both o-rings look suspect. But, that rust developed after a thorough cleaning in a plastic bag. Makes sense. Condensation and oxidation don't care.
I looked at the lower plug. Because it died at low rpm last evening, believe Martin nailed the cause. The plug looked lean. Which leads us back to crap somewhere. So far, the RH carb is clean. Just starting on the LH unit.
This was my lunch break. Glad I caught your advice. Thanks.
Pictures later. Found a passage that was clogged, but I never even knew is existed.
Steve
Didn't get to a full up test, today. But, its ready for tomorrow morning. Re-Jetted carbs, per Warwick and Martin's suggestion. There was definitely some crap in what I believed to be a clean carbs. Lesson: "If you're gonna store carbs, take them completely apart, use a vapor desiccant, then seal in plastic bags."
I found an orifice I never knew existed, leaving a cleaning tool in place to help identify. This passage was clogged in the lower carb. Seemed clean in upper carb, but cleaned it anyway. I used spray cleaner and compressed air.
Both gaskets and the opposing carb faces had what looked like condensation, but smelled like fuel. Is this a normal result of storage or a failure at the gasket? Don't remember seeing this before. Also, never used pre-mix until now. That shouldn't make any difference, but I don't take common logic for knowledge with this bike. When I assembled the carb body, I used a very thin layer of Yamabond on the gasket. Believe I need new gaskets, however.
Reset air screws to 1.5 turns out, attached air filter boxes. Used new hex-head screws on all the points where rubber meats metal. Far easier than using a Phillips or even a JIP bolt.
Decided to use the empty oil tank to mount the VAJ. Not a final design, but its already pre-formed to fit and the weight differential is almost zero with no oil. Also: Gets me to a test ride sooner, assuming I can get the engine to cooperate.
I'm using the stock throttle cables, but at this point, I wish for something specific to my needs. I refuse to hack up the stock cabling. but, it pretty stupid to use this system really and not at all tidy. Suggestions welcomed.
Dumped 9/11/18 fuel from tank. (Good for the lawn mower). There was no crap in the RGV tap filters, but the tank is obviously not 100% hygienic. Believe I'll trust the fuel tap filters for tomorrow with 0ne liter of premix, then get two in-line filters before a test ride. Any recommendations on hi-flow, in-line filters appreciated. Also: I do not have the carb inlet filters in place.
All comments welcome.
That's it for today. Thanks.
Steve
Yeah, all just part of the usual test-tweak-test process really, Steve. So long as all galleries and passageways are clean, and the carb is physically sound and the floats and valves are set and working as they should be it should be straightforward to find a solid tickover setting with a bit of tweaking of the throttle stop and pilot air screws once you start it up again.
I wouldn't worry about the body gaskets personally. They look fine to me - just absorbing a bit of fuel.
Good luck! 👍
The little brass tube you indicated is the choke pick up, which goes up to under the plunger. It has a little side hole to prevent it syphoning or something..
Cable wise, your only real way to get a simplified set up is to make one yourself (or get someone else), using matching ends and a splitter. With a lot of care it is possible to remove the unwanted cables from the stock set up..which is probably the easiest option. Splitting the cable parts can be tricky though!
Re-jetting and cleaning the carbs made the difference. I've attached a video. The air boxes aren't attached, but thanks to Martin and Warwick sending me back to basics, the 3xv now has a sweet throttle response, at least to 7K.
I had the air boxes attached and using the stock tank with 800ml of pre-mix, gave it about 4 kicks with choke and it fired, then immediately revved to 7-8K. I hit the kill switch. Jacked around with the throttle, figuring a cable was stretched somewhere, tried again. Same result. So, back to the work bench. Checked the throttle cables, made sure they were free and not under stress. Went to the test you see in the attached video. Happy Birthday.
Temps were slow to build. Less smoke. I plan on adjusting the idle down to about 1750, but will set each cylinder separately, to about 1K, first. The current idle is only set with the adjuster on the TPS.
I'm seriously considering running the bike at the track on Saturday. Our TD system is 20 on. 40 off. One hour off for Lunch. Seems that if I watch the temp gauge and keep things under 10K, this would be an ideal run-in opportunity.
Thanks again for all the help. Another major day.
Steve
Yep, that sounds much better, Steve :). A bit of fine tuning to balance the slides and fine tune the air screws etc and get a nice even, strong tickover on both cyls (sounds like the lower cyl is carrying it a bit just now) and you are good to go.
Maybe think about trying the bigger pilots again to see if it will work OK with them? As you are running pre-mix now, bigger pilots will be handy if you can run them happily enough.
If the guys at the track are OK with you dawdling a bit, then maybe a couple of gentles sessions will be OK. Is there the opportunity for you to sneak in a few plug chops at the track too? Ie: does the track layout allow you to cut it at WOT and roll into the pits without power (or getting into trouble with the marshalls C:-))
It's worth bearing in mind that the stock ignition will give you a bit of a safety margin in use really as it will now be acting as a fairly significant performance restriction in itself. You should feel some improvement from the porting work, but with the -00 ignition the power curve will likely feel a little more peaky than before and it won't allow you to make the most of the new motor's potential as the ignition curve and the PV timing will not be ideally suited to the rest of the set-up.
Yeah, you have to try things to see how it is... So it'll be interesting to hear how she goes! (-P) 8)
Good ears, Warwick. Yes. The only real fine tune has been the idle adjustment at the TPS and a careful "feel" syncing of the slides.
This specific track day organization is very rider friendly, but a plug chop on this track would require a compromise I don't feel good about throwing at all the other riders. The roads near my home would be better for such testing.
Better to count my blessings and make sure the carbs, chassis and suspension are fully sorted. We can book another TD within three weeks. We're already registered for Road Atlanta in early August.
I still have the Zeel and Toomey radiator to add to this build. Better to stay with "one step at a time," I believe.
The nearest, Dyno with a 2T oriented op is three hours away.
Thanks for your usual quality advice.
Steve
Today was my literal Birthday. Great to find a major moment of progress as a present that none of my family (except son) would understand. Also, great to have a friend who will lend me a "hot" bike to ride on Saturday. It's all good.
Happy birthday.
Sometimes the best presents you get are the ones you get for yourself. (-P)
I actually saved my first fire up for my birthday this past April.....luckily it went OK.
https://youtu.be/1stvezZ8yNk
Taking your time getting bike dialed in is a good idea considering how much time you have put in it already.
There are alway more track days.
I'll be reading as much as I can and learning, so when I get my bike I will at least have a clue what is right and wrong.
Hope your part of Indiana stays dry this weekend for you
Big Thank You, Busa.
You're absolutely right, but it just happened to be my Birthday. The crank just happened to let go on 9/11.
Both events were coincidence, but I also believe if we find meaning in these events, there is a real cosmic connection.
Weather looks good for track day at Putnam. Hot, humid, but no forecast of rain.
Thanks for your support. Hope you catch some details from my project. There are real 3xv gurus on this forum giving me advice.
It might seem obvious, but "Give Respect. Get Respect."
Again, feel free to PM me. I'm an expert on breaking loose a frozen swing-arm.
All my best for your project.
Steve
Had a good track day on my partner's ZX-6.... Until the engine went soft at 12k near the end of session two. The oil sight glass was "full". We siphoned off the extra oil. Then it started making ugly ticking noises in session three, but still started and ran when we loaded it to the hauler. I'm guessing coolant is getting into the lubrication. The same problem he paid $8K to fix. Fook.
As if you on this Forum don't already know, there is a huge difference between wrestling a "built" 600 and a 3xv in terms of handling. One line on a decent knife does not work for all of us used to a scalpel.
We're now committed to a track day, two weeks from yesterday. Lots of tuning and road testing ahead.
My biggest problem seems to be throttle/idle control using the stock multi-cable system. Snagging and unnatural pulling on the cables being my simple diagnosis. I will look more closely at the manual's routing set up.
Our track day organizer has welcomed me showing with a 2T running pre-mix. Exotic smoke being a non-issue.
Wish me luck building the bike up to use in anger for this event. Very tempted to use the dual-core TZ radiator (it's been hot and humid, lately. This temp/humidity Hell usually continues through mid-September.) But, I want to stick with -00 CDI for this upcoming track day. If all goes well, the Zeel and a dyno come next.
As always, all opinions welcomed.
Will report road tests and show plug chops.
My best to all.
Steve
The bike is ready for a test ride. However, when kicking it into gear, it immediately dies. Just as it would with the kickstand lock-out in place. I eliminated the lock-out last summer. Taking the blue/yellow wire coming from the ECU (that used to be connected to the lock-out) to ground worked fine....then. Now, even with that blue/yellow wire grounded (I tried several points on the chassis), the bike still dies when first gear is engaged.
The neutral light on the clock is illuminated, so the ECU is talking to the tranny.
I'm tempted to pull that wire from the ECU, replace it then ground the new wire.
I also have a Zeel sitting in a box. I believe it has no feature for kick-stand lock-out. Plugging in a whole new ECU seems premature, but I need to test the bike's running characteristics. It feels good on the stands and has been through 5 heat cycles.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Steve
Does the neutral light go out when you put it into gear?
Yes, Martin. The neutral light goes out in sync with the engine cutting off.
It's a real mystery. Nothing else in the wiring harness has been changed, except the elimination of the injection oil level relay.
Believe I'll plug in that relay just to be sure there is no interaction with the kick-stand lock-out.
It would seem that if the ECU can't see the oil level relay, it wouldn't even start on the stands, but will only take a few minutes to test.
Thanks
Added 15 minutes later: Connected the injection oil relay. No joy.
Are you sure it's a electrical problem you have .??
Perhaps something is wrong with the clutch / gearbox and she's just stalling .
Just putting it out there ?:-|.
Martin and all.
Success: Got it rolling under its own power.
Ride review first: Started first kick on choke. Killed choke in about 15 seconds. Motor lost revs and died. Kicked it again with no choke, but a bit of throttle. Blipping the throttle, rolled down my driveway. Took a short 3 mile ride. Never got higher than 3rd gear or 8K rpm. One half throttle. Even on a hot/humid afternoon, the temp gauge never got above 55C. That's amazing. Still running stock radiator and thermostat.
It pulled OK from idle, but not really clean. A bit "burbely" until 5K, then a clean pull to 8K. Depending on the throttle postion, there was an occasional dip in power delivery a 7K. Much better than the stock engine. I know I have some carb work to do. Warwick recommended going back to #20 pilot jets. Pretty sure the idle and air screws are not right yet.
No leaks, overflows and the exhaust smoke was greatly diminished once warn and revved out. Good call, Martin.
Overall: Very pleased. Now, a bit of fine tune awaits. But, not today. Its been almost 10 months since it blew. A great day.
Steve
The problem was solved by grinding off the powder coating with a Dremel at the ground contact. Should have tried that before raising a red flag.
Quote from: vinny on July 02, 2019, 10:19:05 PM
Are you sure it's a electrical problem you have .??
Perhaps something is wrong with the clutch / gearbox and she's just stalling .
Just putting it out there ?:-|.
Yeah. That possibility had me spooked. Fortunately, its was merely a poor ground. The powder coating guys did a good job of doweling the threads in the chassis, but grinding off the mating surface and making sure the bolt was tightening the wire from the ECU made the difference.
Thanks for your opinion. Glad you weren't right.
Steve
Awesome work Steve! now the next stage of the project begins... ;)
Quote from: Steveog on July 02, 2019, 10:35:27 PM
Quote from: vinny on July 02, 2019, 10:19:05 PM
Are you sure it's a electrical problem you have .??
Perhaps something is wrong with the clutch / gearbox and she's just stalling .
Just putting it out there ?:-|.
Yeah. That possibility had me spooked. Fortunately, its was merely a poor ground. The powder coating guys did a good job of doweling the threads in the chassis, but grinding off the mating surface and making sure the bolt was tightening the wire from the ECU made the difference.
Thanks for your opinion. Glad you weren't right.
Steve
Bit late apologies but sounds like the first gear engage & stall like I experienced in the refurb. traced it down to earthing issue with the proppstand, stripped, cleaned and refitted then all was well :)
Sounds like you're in the home straight now, at least for Round 1 (-P)
Martin. Thump.
Thank You.
The support from several key friends here on the Forum is the reason I got this far.
Now, time for a celebratory adult beverage or two.
Steve.
I know you've been drinking them coors light but if you can find it locally. Check out some dogfish head craft brewed ales. Craft brewery out of Delaware a little more expensive but they don't really make anything under 7% alcohol.
Thanks for the tip, Rick. I do like Coor's, but don't intentionally go "light", unless someone else is buying.
Tonight, it was Stella Artois. My son and I had dinner at a local tavern.
Appreciate your help on this journey. I now have the track bike you recommended from one of your first comments.
You were right.
Steve
Here's another craft beer i like north coast brewing out of NorCal. It has a nice hit to it at 7.6 acl/vol.
Great label. I love many craft brews, but not IPA's or those that are flavored with anything except barley or hops. Thanks for the recommendations. My sister lives in Portland. I'm betting she can get these brews. Now, I know what ask for.
Didn't get to ride/test today. Started raining here about 10:00am. Went to work on fabrications and cosmetics instead.
I really want a test to 10K and get a plug chop before digging into the carbs.
Steve
I work for Columbia distribution which is based out of Portland they are a beer n wines distribution company pretty big in the pnw. I don't like ipa's the pranqster is a Belgian golden ale.
Sounds like a cool job.
Seems as if a PM might be appropriate.
Beer was invented in Belgium. Ale is a personal favorite. Nothing tops a great day in the shop or on the track as does a great beer.
Thanks.
There a nice one mile straight section of state highway near my home/shop. The only place for WOT..at least through fourth gear. I had been running the road tests with only the gas tank and the ECU taped to the frame. The highway I mentioned is patrolled, so I decided to install the tail section. At least it would resemble a motorcycle. Before that, I committed to using the parts I already had to give the ECU a proper home. I'm looking forward to a fully fabricated sub-frame. Aluminum and plastic. But, with a Track Day in only one week, I believe the time is better spent on engine tuning, brake maintenance, etc. Sorry, the pic I have attached is not very good look at what I did, but I was anxious to test and didn't get a pic from the alternative angle.
After a 2 mile warm-up, keeping her below 7K, I turned on to the highway. WOT in first from about 3K. It pulled clean to about 7K then ripped to 11K. I was trying to keep this test to 10K, but the engine wanted to sing. Wow. Temps never got about 55C. I could take this bike to the track, tomorrow.
Not all is unicorns and rainbows, though. Its a bit rough off the bottom at partial throttle and feels rich at half throttle around 7K.
I have since tuned the idle one cylinder at a time with the air screws set 1 1/2 turns out. Will test that setting tomorrow to see if it smooths out slow running.
I'm tempted to lean out the needle one notch, but am aware this engine is brand new and don't want to ask too much of it before a couple of more tests.
I have not yet installed the #20 pilots, nor done a real plug chop.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Steve
PS - No mudguards were harmed in the making of the ECU mount. I bought a hacked up version and sold my pristine stock one last year.
Not sure where you set them, but with your set-up I'd think it worth trying the needles in the stock position if they are not currently, Steve. It'll probably benefit from a twiddle of the air screws to find the best pick-up from a closed throttle too. You can only really tune that part of the fuelling by feel on the stand and road unless you have unlimited access to a dyno with AFR probes.
Remember that your ignition - and the PV timing especially - is not really optimal for the engine set-up too though.
Running a similar set-up years ago I found with the -00 ignition the power curve was a bit 'concave' and the motor felt a little bit peaky compared with a better suited ignition. Here's a comparison of the -00 ignition and the Sugo kit unit on the same engine on the same day. The main jet sizes were slightly different between these runs too, but not optimal quite on either - the significant change was the ignition and PV timing of course.
Warwick. As always: "Thanks for your intel."
I reset the carbs to stock per your's and Martin's suggestion. The needles are set to position #3.
The pre-grenade bike had the air screws backed out to 2 1/4 turns. Not sure how to normalize the slide adjustment screws, now that I have the air adjustments set and the tick-over stable at 1750 (warm). But, its as you say, without a dyno, I need to use "feel". That's good, as I can't see trying too hard to tune to a -00, when I will instal the Zeel in about 10 days following the next Track Day in 8 days.
The local dyno (dynojet) is run by a 4T guy who has proven to be unreliable and a bit psycho. I simply don't want to pay him for any diagnostics. I only buy parts from his company. His parts guy raced 250 TZ's with Lawson and Rainey.
The nearest 2T expert is about 3 hours away. I want to understand the basics of the Zeel before spending that kind of money.
Believe I said this last year: "Today is the anniversary date of the USA declaring Independence from England." Now, hear I am. Very "dependent" on the gracious and expert advice from you and your UK fellows. Not to mention help from New Zealand, France, Germany. Netherlands, Japan and other friends in the USA.
The world could be much better off if we all realized how we need each other, much as we do in this niche community of 2T fanatics.
Yes, I've had a beer or three.
Steve
Great progress (-P) I bet you cant wait to chuck the zeel on it.
Have a look at the sugo 'subframe', it's really just 2 brackets to support the tailpiece. Nice and minimalistic. With the stock harness you may need to fabricate a suitable bracket or container for the CDI though.
Sounds like good progress so far Steve!
Remember that the air mixture screws lean the mix if you turn them out (anti-clockwise), and richen them if you turn in. They can sometimes be used to 'correct' a slightly mis-sized pilot jet, or at least help diagnose which direction to go in. If you find the engine runs cleaner with them 3 turns out, then it shows the pilots may want to be a size smaller. Or, of say for example it runs better with them screwed almost all the way in, it's a sign it'll probably want a size larger pilots.
On track the slight richness you feel on the road at part throttle may not matter so much.
I'd leave the needle where it is and work on the pilot setting first. They all kind of interact a bit, which can make things confusing...
Good day, boys. Thanks for your intel on the project.
Karl: Yes. Really wanting to run the Zeel. Its supposed to be plug and play with the 3xv mapping that's loaded. Then I read a warning about setting static timing. It was also advised that the -00 box offers an order of protection with a fresh motor (which makes a lot of sense). This next track day will be a test unto itself. The track has a 1.2km front straight and other fast sections. A bit of limited rpm at the top end seems a good idea, as this thing really wants to rev.
Those Sugo pieces look like a great solution. You can barely see it in the pic I loaded, but I used the stock ECU mount and bolted it in, right at point of the faring mount. I could easily mount what I already have to those Sugo pieces. Thanks.
Martin: Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. Yes, your cylinders and head skims made an obvious difference once above 6.5K. Glad you're recommending to not fool with the needles jets. Appreciate reminding me about the the air jets. I usually set and forget. I believe it might be rich off the bottom, so I'll start today with backing the air jet out one turn and see what happens. I also plan a plug chop at 11.5K (which is probably 11K in reality). The engine seems to like the 270/200 mains. A chop will tell the tale.
Most of the day will be spent reviewing the chassis. Brakes, torque setting, cleaning up the bodywork, etc.
My Best to you both.
Steve
You probably need to be more subtle with the air screw adjustments than that, Steve - think more in terms of quarter to half turn adjustments - and don't assume that each cylinder will need exactly the same setting either. It can be better to think of it as two seperate engines almost in terms of the jetting - and to think of all the the carburation system as an inter-related almost organic system where changes you make in one circuit can often impact another to an extent.
At this stage, it's certainly not really feasible think in terms of 'setting and forgetting' anything really; there will likely be quite a bit of tweaking and fine adjustment needed to arrive at a solid base setting that you are happy with. I suggested 1.5 out on the air screws just as a starting point as that is about in the middle of the normal range of adjustment for the ideal pilot size. As Martin says, the broad rule of thumb is that if you need to wind the air screws out much past 2.5 turns to get a nice steady tick-over and good pickup, you may want to consider going down a size; less than 1 turn out to get it nice and it might be worth trying the next size up. Working on the set-up is all part of the fun :D. The only place you can really get it terminally wrong is with the main jet setting so you need to be more careful there, obviously - especially when you go over to the Zeel and it starts to work harder at the top end. It won't be working as hard with the -00 so be careful not to be complacent when you swap to the Zeel.
As an additional complication I'd imagine that the humidity you experience over there will have an impact on optimum jetting too of course, so it'd be wise to be careful of placing any trust in any settings others might find ideal in very different conditions? The 3XV is relatively easy to set up with the 28s in my experience though, so hopefully you'll find it all a rewarding and drama free experience. A good maxim (that I've never been very good at living by myself) is that it is better to be a horsepower or two the rich side of optimum than to be cleaning smeared piston off the cylinders...
Anyway, so far so good. It'll be interesting to hear how it feels on the track with the chassis repairs and the increased motor potential (-P).
Yes, international collaboration is always preferable to the other... 8)
Well presented, Warwick. I already broke one of your guidelines on my morning test ride. I backed out both air screws one full turn. It seemed to be better off the bottom, but the idle wouldn't settle down, so I re-set the idle screw, one pot at at time when back in the shop. I have a lot to learn.
You informed me of the one cylinder at a time method of setting idle last summer. The rear didn't change from 1000rpm, even with the air screw 2.5 turns out. (Remember that cylinder has a an SP box-top.) I pulled the idle down with TPS idle screw. It really doesn't want to settle in to 1750 without coaxing. If I rev it to 7K, it settles at 1750. If I give it a gentle blip, it won't drop below 2000K. I'm guessing that this is all about pre-mix and A747.
Question: Does running the bike on one cylinder present any hazards to the non-running cylinder? It wouldn't seem so, as the piston is moving air and carb is open, but on pre-mix things might be different. Please advise.
On the test ride, I gave it WOT, it pulled cleanly, got serious at 7K and kept on pulling harder until it hit a soft spot, just before 12K. Just as the stock bike did on the -00 box in heat and humidity. Concerning humidity, today is around 85%. Lots of water vapor displacing oxygen has always had a noticeable effect on carburated bikes. Even my '98 R-1 was a bit castrated on some summer days around here
It didn't do a true plug chop, but did look at the RH plug back in the shop. A bit oily. As you said, "Better to be Rich." Again, this could be the result of the A747 running a compromise of street speeds. Its meant to be racing oil. I have no intention to jet down before track day.
Your advice and experience is always important. Thanks again.
Steve
PS - The rear suspension is a dream. Hate to think how bad it was and how hard I was riding it that way. One problem. Now, I can feel the need for a new shock. It never ends.
Added- RH-Plug. Following extended ride and several WOT runs to 11.5K.
You should be fine running it on a single cyl briefly for bottom end set-up purposes Steve. Removing the plug in the cylinder you're not setting up can give the motor an easier time.
Check that the cable routing and adjustment means that there is no danger of the slides hanging up on the cable. It can be useful to keep a good bit of slack at the adjusters while setting up the tickover to ensure that only the idle screws themselves are impacting the slide height. The revs hanging sounds like it might be a cable adjustment/condition thing to me? Is it worth fabricating or having made a more suitable cable set-up? If you use a TZ type twin pull throttle you could use simple single cables to each carb, perhaps?
I can't comment on the A747 as I've nver used it. If the plugs look wet, that could indicate a fuel rich setting at the load it was last at though.
Happy tweaking! 8)
Excellent. Good long-range diagnosis. My multi-cable has given me a headache during this build. I definitely want a simple dual-pull cable. I could take apart the multi-cable, but it has value if I want to go back to the pump. I've been advised that there is no specific dual-pull cable that bolts up to the 3xv. Its a DIY kind of thing. Apparently with the Zeel, I can also rid myself of the TPS, so that makes a dual-pull throttle a bit easier to work with I would think.
I've been doing the single cylinder idle exercise with the plug installed in the alternate cylinder. Those adjustments only last about 60 seconds, however. Good info. Will try your suggestions to tweak it further. Right now, I would have no problem riding through the pits on low throttle, but its still not right.
Yes. That plug doesn't tell us much. The good news: The engine hasn't loaded up or skipped a beat since it was started.
Thanks for your help. Enjoy your weekend.
Steve
Forgot to add that it might be worth re-lubing the cable and splitting, cleaning and lubing the mechanisms in the splitter boxes too of course. Maybe remove the redundant cables from the splitters entirely too if you haven't already, and check for any fraying or damage to the cables?
Thanks. The cables are in good shape. No fraying. I'll consider disassembling the system, as it has proven to be a major pain routing it properly.
My only concern: The first junction doesn't seem to allow enough slack to take it apart. That said, please refer to my swing-arm story back in January. If it can be assembled, it can be disassembled.
Cheers, my friend.
Yup.. they can be extremely fiddly to get apart and even worse to re-assemble. I suspect they get their end nipples soldered on in situ once placed into the splitter.
Have you ever made cables up before?
Hi Martin. Negative on having made my own cables.
I've been in contact with another member who has had Motion Pro make up a dual-pull cable for a 3xv based on his own drawings.
As of now my cable bundle is somewhat afflicted with a few cable ties holding things in place, trying to keep them synchronous. The bundle needs replacing. I'll take it to the track as it is and look for alternatives after.
Good thinking?
Thanks.
Steve
As long as you are 100% sure that the carbs will close quickly when you shut the throttle, then yeah, would be fine to use on track.
All testing has shown good throttle pull and return. The only concern came with the comment that my idle may not be settling down due to throttle cable probs. The difference at idle is only about 300rpm. The carbs definitely snap shut. I believe I haven't yet tuned the air screws and idle circuits properly.
If the rain holds off, planning to get plug chops today. I'm thinking that with pre-mix, I should catch max revs, then pull clutch, hit the kill switch and get her stopped as soon as possible. Keep the coasting to a minimum.
Thanks, as always.
Steve
Coasting is no problem...the motor will be stopped anyway. Sometimes I kill the motor too soon when I have a target parking spot, and have to tuck in and roll as far as possible!
Build up how long you hold it wide open for, until ultimately you can hold it flat in top for a while. This is not always condusive to polite motoring, but it's the only real way to get a sure plug chop. The plugs sometimes can take a good hammering before they start to show their true colour, what may look sweet in a 4th gear run, may look lean when held open on track for a few laps. This is the cautious approach. Basically, just make sure the plugs don't look too pale or even grey.
As Martin says, coasting to a stop with the clutch in will be fine, Steve. The thing to avoid with premix is any extended period of higher revs but a closed throttle - think cruising down an incline on a closed throttle with the motor engaged. On the track this is seldom ever really an issue, but running the biggest pilots you can get away with while not impacting the pick up unduly can give a degree pf protection when barreling into a tighter corner on a closed throttle off a high speed straight. But you can always blip the throttle on the downshifts for some extra lube and an old skool kool soundtrack in this situation of course... 8) ;D
Quote from: Martin77 on July 06, 2019, 08:45:48 PM
Build up how long you hold it wide open for, until ultimately you can hold it flat in top for a while. This is not always condusive to polite motoring...
This made me laugh out loud ;D :D
Cheers, Captain!
hah... we're both guilty of it... 8)
Good stuff, Boys. Warwick, I laughed at the "tuck and roll" comment. Fortunately, I use the state Highway I discussed earlier. Biggest concern there is the county police, AKA: Sheriff. They would definitely have a problem with a fourth gear, WOT pass being impolite motoring.
That said, Having done exactly that, the engine ripped from just above 6 to 11.5K, then stumbled all over itself trying to pull above that. I was expecting to find rich readings. The good news is both cylinders seemed balanced. Judge for yourself.
This WOT stumble could be the -00 box, but last year with the v.1 of this bike, I saw 12K+ several times. That was usually during the morning sessions or when air temps were well below those of today.
It definitely wants to be unbridled, Martin.
Today was very humid again, but air temps were down a bit. Based on your comments Warwick (today and earlier) and your's Martin (today), I feel as if I should jet up on the mains for the track. Currently: 200/270 to 210/280.
Opinions welcome, as always.
Grandson will be here soon, so no more shop time today.
Steve
I don't see the speedo cable fitted, Steve? If it's not, remember that the -00 Cdi will be capping the fun at about 11.5k without any alternative arrangements to deal with the speedo restrictor.
I've been running with no speedo cable since mid-summer, 2018. I know it's supposed to clamp-off power at 11.5K, but somehow that hasn't always been true. I've seen the tach swing to almost 13K. No explanation.
If you remember, my speedo had that sensor gizmo completely removed when I got the bike, so the speedo cable was having no effect, anyway.
During the build, I removed the gears in the front wheel that drive the speedo cable.
Never got the right version of the Posh Unit. Once it locked...well, new more expensive plans took over.
Looking forward to the Zeel.
Have a good weekend.
Steve
Ah yes I remember now, Steve. You might sometimes see the revs on the tach, but I'd be pretty confident that a Dyno would show the drive dropping off a cliff at around 11,300 true RPM though with that set-up. I've tried it many times myself - you can see it on the -00 trace of the dyno shot I posted earlier (front wheel static on the dyno = restricted mode). It's really noticeable in use. It's a shame you don't have an unmolested speedo to plug in or the right Posh box to compare because the bike is very much nicer to use with the more rounded peak of the power curve that you get with the wiring all in place.
I guess yours could have some other kind of device fitted in the restrictor wiring somewhere of course? Did you trace the restrictro wiring through the loom when looking it over?
Anyway, yes, the Zeel will sort all that of course (-P)
As always, thanks for your input. I plan to run the current configuration at the upcoming track day. I'll shift at 11K. Way too much work put into this build to not allow the -00 box to hold my reigns. A wise friend, suggested this approach. Semi-restricted Track time for a virgin build is a far better compromise than the expense of a huge mistake at this point in the bike's evolution.
Believe it will surprise a few 600's before we hit the straights. The power from 7-11K is a major upgrade.
I've entered as an intermediate. I've played in Novice up until now. Should be quite a lesson.
I'm not aware of any de-restricted wiring in the loom, but I did run my main power switch directly from the battery/magneto.
I'm guessing you agree to jet up on the mains. The plug chop looks text-book, but I'm thinking of Martin's warning of a 4th gear chop vs a long stretch of top gear WOT. The track we're riding definitely requires top gear in at least two places per lap.
I'm planning another chop at 4K/quarter throttle. That should give a clue about air/pilot jets. Yes?
Your continuing to monitor my progress is quite frankly is that of a friend.
Good evening.
Steve
Personally, I would go up a size main jet initially, and then pencil in perhaps changing back down after a few sessions and it's proved itself.
Plug chops for lower throttle positions aren't worth doing in my experience, much better to just ride it to get a feel for clean running/crisp pick up from a closed throttle. Turn the screws and see what happens, then refine them in/out a bit until it feels nicest.
Careful in the intermediate class not to feel bullied by the bigger bikes.. find your feet, settle with the bike, relax.. enjoy it..
Yeah, you'll be fine with the -00 unit for the time being. It's just a shame that you don't have the parts to hand to get the most from it while you continue development with it. On the other hand, fitting the Zeel when you get to that will be an immediately significant improvement even before you fully dial it in 8).
I'm hesitant to offer any specific advice on main jetting because there are so many variables and your ambient conditions are very different to mine too. And the consequences of getting it wrong are pretty expensive thesedays... For reference only, the biggest main jetting we tried with that kind of set-up was around 300/260, but ended up with 250/210 as the optimum after a bit of road testing and a few runs on the dyno. Logic suggests that your conditions might mean that you might need leaner jetting than me to get the best from it, but all you can ever sensibly do with jetting is start safely rich and work down in tested stages till you arrive at the point it will rev out cleanly, but keep a good plug colour under sustained 6th gear WOT testing (your 4th gear plug chops are not really enough of a test to confirm a safe main setting - as Martin notes, effective plug chopping on the road can be a little bit anti-social... :)) C:-).
I'm not sure really if its a blessing or a curse, but with the -00 ignition and no doctored restrictor or plug-in de-limiter fitted it will be hard for you to get a good plug reading at the top in any case I reckon. If it's any reassurance though, the inherent tameness of the -00 ignition means that even with a delimiter fitted I never managed to melt a piston using the -00 despite some pretty heroic efforts to do so... ;D Without the limiter bypassed I'd think there it will be operating as an even bigger safety valve.
In you situation, I think I would be inclined to take a range of mains to the track and use the day as a set-up session, starting pretty rich and dropping a size between each session if the plugs and feel suggested that would be fine to do so. You'd need to take some care though, obviously.
And remember that you will need to start this process all over again - and proceed with even greater care - when you fit the Zeel.
Good luck!
Good advice. I can use that same highway for a sixth gear run before I go to the track. I'm already well over the speed limit on a totally illegal motorcycle. Not so worried about anti-social (the road is surrounded by farm land), as being arrested with the bike impounded. Some sections of that road are over a mile (1.6km) with no intersections. I could get a much better baseline reading. I'd rather start out rich than try to juggle jets at this specific track. There's really no way to do plug chops using the track without pushing the bike about a kilometer back to the pits.
This old guy would rather get to know the bike again than use up a limited amount of energy in what is forecast to be hot/humid.
As you say, I'll be repeating the exercise with the Zeel. Being mostly retired allows the time, but the Zeel brings so many options. I'd rather use the limited brain cells remaining on that puzzle.
I'll take extra mains with me to the track. There is a huge parking lot available, but probably only good for a chop during lunch break.
I totally understand your not wanting to give main jetting advice, per se. Yes, weather conditions here can be even more extreme than yesterday. The danger zone would seem to be cooler temps with less humidity. Leaning things out.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and the time spent with me on this. The help is irreplaceable.
Steve
Quote from: Martin77 on July 07, 2019, 11:03:08 AM
Personally, I would go up a size main jet initially, and then pencil in perhaps changing back down after a few sessions and it's proved itself.
Plug chops for lower throttle positions aren't worth doing in my experience, much better to just ride it to get a feel for clean running/crisp pick up from a closed throttle. Turn the screws and see what happens, then refine them in/out a bit until it feels nicest.
Careful in the intermediate class not to feel bullied by the bigger bikes.. find your feet, settle with the bike, relax.. enjoy it..
Thanks, Martin. I didn't see this comment last evening. Will jet up for track day. The plugs definitely looked different (oily) when checking after simply rolling up my drive way and when compared to that WOT test in fourth. But, I hear you and trust your expertise. Fiddling it shall be for tweaking the bottom end. Its pretty close, now. Still feels a bit rich at quarter throttle around 4K rpm. But, I'm kinda stuck between going down to 12.5 on the pilots just to get rid of a slight burble (that won't effect me on the track) and Warwick's advice of staying as rich as possible on the pilots for safety when off throttle. Believe I'll leave things alone, pending the Zeel.
HA. At our track days, the 1000's and 600's are in novice, too. Even a KTM 1299. But, passing is only allowed on the straights, so I'm used to the sound of those bigger bike overtaking me. I just stay on-line. The fun starts when I pass them back in a technical section that actually requires riding. In Intermediate, the overall rider skills are higher, so that won't be so easy.
I was accidentally sent out in a Intermediate session last summer. Quite an experience getting passed in the corners by guys with their knees on the pavement. The good news is I know this track. Should be fun, even if I don't ride like Marquez and am bit strangled by the -00 ECU.
Sorry for the late reply.
Steve
Decided to change the oil in the tranny. See pic of drain pan. The dark colored stuff is oil. It smells like tranny oil. No hint of Castor from the A747. No cloudy fluid, which would indicate water. There are no leaks from the engine, externally. Both pipes are are pumping the same amount of bluish smoke. The bike operates better in every way I can test on straight roads.
I believe this dirty oil is either a clutch problem (although there is no indication of slippage or catching when riding). Or the internal oil passages were contaminated somehow when the crank let go.
I only cleaned the engine manually with kerosene and compressed air. All bearings and seals are new.
I've included some pics from just after the destruction. This same color oil is seen on tranny/clutch side of the engine.
There's another picture of clean oil being drained. This was before the "incident".
Those are the clues. Anyone have an opinion?
Thanks.
Steve
Added next morning: I was reading around the Forum and discovered that the grease from new bearings may be the cause of the oil's discoloration. That doesn't explain the dirty oil immediately following the crank bearing failure, but the two events might be unrelated. Let's see what happens when I run the bike again.
Just looks like clutch fiber plate debris to me sometimes it's a little heavier at first when you have new plates installed.
Thanks, Rick.
There are no particles in that pan. The plates were cleaned, but not new.
You could still be right, however.
Steve
Yeah, just looks like the usual clutch muck to me too. Nothing to worry about I'd say. To be honest I've never dropped any oil as clean looking as that out of any of mine... :-[
HA. Thanks. You know how it is with a fresh motor. Questioning everything you've touched. Which is EVERYTHING.
Will proceed to cycle all fluids, do a top gear chop, adjust jetting, prep a full jug of pre-mix and try to chill.
It will be a lot of fun to add a few new stickers to the faring...including "Porting by Martin Johnson".
Good evening, my friend.
Steve
Its always something. The oil was much cleaner after riding a 4 mile test loop this afternoon. It was only slightly hotter than all the tests so far. Here's the problem. No additional stress was placed on the motor, but I did run it hard, occasionally. When I looked down, temp gauge was reading 100C. I limped back to the shop thinking something had gone terribly wrong. No overflow, no steam, nothing suspect visually. In earlier tests, the bike had been running consistently at 55-60C, regardless of how I road it. I had changed nothing mechanically.
I changed the oil, drained and replenished the cooling system and overflow tank with "Engine Ice".
Took another test ride. This time I watched the temp gauge, as I would the tach. Nice smooth needle rising to about 60C, then to 100C in about 3 seconds, but it would occasionally return to 60, 75 at random. I was only running about 6K in third/fourth gear. Blipping the throttle to keep it lubed. I started thinking the temp gauge had reached its service life. So, took it out of the clock mount and just taped it to the top of the dash and did another test. Same thing. This time when I pulled into the shop, I let the engine run at tick-over. The temp gauge dropped a bit at idle. I tapped the gauge with my finger and it continued to drop in temp while the engine idled. I shut the bike off at 70C, grabbed a beer and started writing this essay.
Seems the temp gauge is now unreliable. I can't feel or see any problems coming from the engine.
I really want to ride this Saturday. I have an FZR 400 temp gauge I could try (but have no idea if its compatible), but could also just ignore the current gauge. The bike is running strong.
Opinions?
Thanks.
Steve
Your thermostat sounds like it is maybe sticking.
Yes, Rick. I thought of that. Would that explain three back to back tests with the temp jumping up so radically at 60C? Why would the temps drop because I tapped the gauge housing? Not arguing. Just questioning. You have far more experience.
The gauge doesn't effect the engine. The thermostat could be a problem.
If it IS the thermostat, what can I do before Friday at 1:00p CDT? Assuming I eliminate it, will the stock rad work properly? If I can't find a replacement, taking the thermostat out would seem to be the safest solution. I can check with my local Yamaha Shop, but there might be an automotive cross-match I'm not aware of.
We're looking at 92-94 degrees ambient temps on Saturday. High humidity. I've got the bike pulling smoothly from 3-10k in fourth. The jetting seems good. Only the -00 ECU is holding it back at the top.
Appreciate your jumping in so quickly.
Steve
Take the thermostat out.
When the motor is cold it is shut and allows cold water to be stored in the rad. As soon as it opens the cold water is dumped into the system and instantly cools everything down (the cause of a cold seizure). By taking the thermostat out this can't happen as the coolant warms up uniformly and cools uniformly. It just takes a bit longer to get up to temp.
For track day use it's much safer to remove the thermostat.
Sounds like a dodgy temp sensor or gauge to me rather than the thermostat.
The temp wouldn't go from 55-60 to 100 in a couple of seconds then back down again equally as quickly.
As a sanity check you could take the thermostat out and place in a pan of water on the hob with a thermometer. Pass the water temp above 65 degrees and it should start to open. If it doesn't, replace it.
Dan
agree with Maccas on this one, check the wiring connections, and the little connector on the end of the sensor, they're known to break or go loose as they are so vulnerable. It's very rare for the gauge itself to go wrong. The sensor is the little thing screwed into the thermostat housing.
I had this on one of my bikes once, quite alarming to see the gauge suddenly spike past the red line, then drop back down.
Thanks to you all.
Dan and Martin - I checked the wiring to the thermocouple. The tang did break off early in my owning the bike. I soldered it back up and it worked well up to the crank letting go.
When I rebuilt the bike, I took the thermostat housing apart and cleaned up the bit of slag that had collected. When I first started the bike after rebuild, the temp spiked to 100. However, temps at the gauge, (until yesterday) have been stable @ 55-60C.
Phil - Thanks for the intel on the thermostat. Seems the easiest solution.
Believe my plan should be to double check the wiring to the gauge. If it still acts wonky, pull the thermostat and test it. If it fails, just ride and ignore the temp gauge if it's still fooked.
My plan was always to install a TZ rad with a proper gauge, hoses hooked directly to the heads, no thermostat. But, I don't have time for that before Saturday.
You guys have given me peace of mind on how to proceed to the track.
Thanks, again.
Steve
Added about an hour or so later: I checked the sensor and gauge with a heat gun. Smooth action up and down. Will road test, but believe pulling the thermostat is the safest play at this point.
Added at lunch break: "Cripes. Getting the thermostat out is a bit of work. Yes?" I haven't tested it, Dan, but will. I'm going to put the bike back together and test without the thermostat.
There was a slight bit of overflow from rad to tank, but the test ride was only two miles. There is no evidence in the coolant of anything suspicious going on in the cooling system. The coolant wasn't terribly hot at the pump/hose, certainly not boiling (100C). This whole thing is very confusing, but the bike was still running properly. BTW: No coolant in the tranny oil.
After removing the thermostat. The temp gauge rose smoothly to 100C. Interestingly, when I revved it out to 11K, the temp came down. When riding at 7-10K without going to WOT, the gauge stayed at or near 100C.
This really doesn't seems as if air velocity through the rad makes any difference in the temp gauge. But, running it hard brings the temp gauge down about 30%.
I'm going to test the water temp in the radiator after a test ride, using a thermometer. If the temp is reasonable, proceed to load up for track day.
The only variables between Wednesday and Yesterday's strange temp readings (continuing today) were: I mounted the overflow tank to the radiator and added a fresh batch of pre-mix.
Last test today: I went to BR-10 plugs for track use. No change to high temp readings.
Any opinions welcome. But, I'm thinking it's a malfunction in the temp gauge system. The bike runs great, even better than Wednesday.
Thanks
Steve
Mug of tea challenge. Put boiling water in a mug, drop the sensor in and see what the gauge shows. The option to use the boiling water for tea afterwards is questionable, however it could be used for the devils brew, instant coffee, as it tastes disgusting to start with :-) I make an exception for proper Italian cappuccino and espresso BTW which should not be used for the temp gauge challenge ...
Tis a weird problem... hard to know, is the water really 100'c? as Phil says, can you rig up the sensor and plop it in a hot mug, perhaps along with a thermometer to get a reading of the mug temp.
Thanks guys. Because the problem started in an instant/overnight with the first test ride on Thursday, there seems to be no other solution than a malfunction in the sensor/gauge. The sensor appears to be nothing but a piece of brass. Water passes through the rad. The water pump is working. Coolant clear of debris or sealant. Oil is clean.
I tested the sensor yesterday with a heat gun, but that only showed that sensor was talking to the temp gauge. Phil's suggestion is a good one as it provides a test of the gauge's accuracy. I'm guessing the sensor must also be grounded.
Martin: Nothing seems to explain the weird behavior when riding, except a faulty gauge. Thought about running a new wire from sensor to gauge. Wild shot, but an easy test.
Could it be related to the the fuel? What if I mixed it too lean? It is smoking less these days, but again, why/how could the pre-mix cause such odd behavior by simply sitting overnight?
Will test the sensor and gauge, first off this morning.
The big question: What if I decide the gauge is fooked and take the bike to the track, but its actually running hot. What symptom would result that would tell me to pull in and quit for the day. I know what a 4T feels like when overheating. In the old days, air-cooled 2T's would lose power when hot. This bike is running great, even when the temp gauge is sitting at 100C.
Great to have you guys sticking with me on this.
Steve
Do they not sell cheap little inline temp sensors somewhere , just a a stop gap/second reading for piece of mind
Thanks Chubba. Good Idea. The nearest, decent auto parts store is about an hour round trip. Will check it out if I have the time.
Ran the test Phil suggested and it was inconclusive (will try again), but I took the sensor out of the thermostat housing after a short ride and inserted a thermometer. The gauge was reading 100C. The thermometer 65C. The fact that I could touch the thermostat housing and the pipe at the head, tells me the gauge is broken and the bike isn't overheating.
I also tried a new wire to the gauge. Same results as with things as they were.
Changed out the pre-mix. Same results.
Appreciate your suggestion.
Steve
Added about half an hour later: This is even more weird: Used a pan of boiling water right off the stove with the sensor's end in the water. The thermometer read 190F (88C). The gauge read 71C. This could explain why it jumped radically earlier. It is certainly wildly inaccurate. Going to take the time to try to find a simple in-line temp gauge, per Chubba's suggestion. Failing that. I believe I have a bogus gauge and will go to the track.
The sensor has a temperature sensitive resister in it, which decreases resistance the warmer it gets. It may look just like a lump of brass, but there is something inside it..
The gauge then alters the needle according to the voltage through the sensor.
Still not sure of the problem though, but I'd say your motor is running fine!
The gauge and the sensor are a matched pair. I had the same problem a while back when I put a replacement gauge in an RGV and used the RGV sensor. The gauge was showing 105c all the time, the reality was 65c when I swapped the RGV sensor for the one that came with the kit.
If the thermometer is showing 65c and the gauge 100, then mentally think 120 on the gauge is time to pull in
Thanks so much, Gentlemen.
My ride just arrived.
To the track. Will report results.
Good Weekend
Steve
Returning to the track with a ground-up, rebuilt 3xv was largely a rewarding success. The bike worked and did not suffer any symptoms of overheating. It started first kick (with only one exception). Had a great time getting reacquainted with this bike. Many in the pits were interested in the little 2T trying to run a very fast track against "Intermediate" class riders, some on "built" liter bikes. (50hp vs 200+. Fair? No, but its my choice.) The track marshall came to me on the first grid and gave a huge smile and fist bump. He also said he was contacting the corner workers, "717 is supposed to smoke. No flags, for that."
Of course, the TZR had some teething issues only brought to the front by riding it hard in 34.4C ambient temps with 75%+ humidity. This track only has grass and asphalt. The track temps were well over 80C. The bike had been tested in similar heat/humidity, but on roads with lots of trees and corn fields providing a far more oxygen-rich atmospheric environment and less heat from the road itself. We have a "heat Index here in the States. Its some sort of computation that mixes the heat and humidity to equal what is "feels" like. The heat index was almost 42C. In other words we were way too rich. It simply wouldn't pull past 10K. Good from 3-9K, but a very much strangled for such a fast track. (See Attachment) From turn 6 to 13 she held her own. I could hear the big bikes behind me, but was rarely passed in that section of the track. There's a big dip down between 6 and 7, then back up to a blind entry into 8. Great fun.
New tyres are a must before any other such shenanigans, as is a TZ radiator/new temp gauge. Once the bike is closer to proper jetting, I'll install the Zeel. The current set of Tyres has done their duty with distinction, but even though lean angles didn't suffer, I was consistently, slightly wide on corner entry. This lead to a couple of off-tack excursions to the grass or over the rumble strips. I felt as though I had to force steering inputs with too much counter-steering. Holding down the 3xv corner entry speed simply isn't the way to play in "Intermediate". I'm going to Dunlop Q3+ before the next TD (8/10).
The improvements to the rear suspension was a revelation. Turn 19 is the only part of this track that is a bit cobbled together. The bike tracked right over this so smoothly, I didn't even remember that last year a line needed to be carefully selected.
Last point, spending the past 8 months in the Shop had dulled my riding senses. The first session, yesterday was pretty ragged. I was more into the effect and sustainability of the "build" than riding my lines. The tyres didn't help, but that's a lame excuse. Its very hard to be tuner and rider. As a tuner, the rider was questioning my set-up. As a rider, the tuner was recommending that the team should fire me. By the last session I rode, the rider was back to only being on probation. Fortunately, I have a contract that's good until death. Many of you have both street and track bikes. I can now see the beauty of that luxury.
Final. Final point: Lots of tuning work ahead. Lots of getting my mind back into riding. Must find a way to learn the difference.
More than anything, it was great to get back to actually riding. A big THANK YOU to all of you here who made this possible.
Steve
Looking good. Search out Conti track (race) attack tyres. Soft front Medium rear. They are so good you get to a corner and let off the brakes early, that allows the bike to settle on it's suspension then just throw it in. Braking into a bend needs very good forks, as when you let off the brakes in a corner the suspension rebound will throw you wide (and run off track for no apparent reason) . You will also be carrying even more corner speed. They will stick like you would not believe so just lean lean lean and get on the throttle early
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Continental-Pair-120-160-x17-Race-Attack-Soft-Med-Compound-Tyres-New/362572023412?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
Thanks Phil. I'm pretty good with trail-braking, so I don't believe that was causing the bike to pitch, causing my less than precise corner entry. As I said, I'm a bit rusty, but by the last session I still wasn't able to put the front wheel where I wanted, consistantly.
Another symptom has been offered: My old rear suspension was so bad it wasn't responding as it should and not settling into turns. With all new bearings in the swinger pivot, suspension linkage and SP-Style thrust bearings, the suspension is now actually working and responding as it should. Meaning its squatting a bit on corner entry, changing the steering geometry. Perhaps amplifying the effect you suggested.
I believe I should raise the rear and lower the front a bit...AND change tyres. Your suggestion on Contis is most appreciated. You're absolutely right, its all about corner speed.
You were one of first to respond when I got on the Forum. Your help and advice has always been spot-on.
Steve
Nice result 8) Satisfying to take a motor down to bearings, rebuild and it have behave itself on track (-P)
On my track bikes I dropped the forks 5 or 10mm, can't remember. The sugo manual has it so it must be good ;) (not that my wobbling around the track would ever be able to tell the difference..)
Other tires that you can consider as well are Dunlop alpha 13 or 14's , as well as Bridgestone RS10's. Both brands are H rated specially for these smaller bikes (in the 110/150 sizes)
Good to hear from you Karl. Thanks for the kind words and support. Yes, having the bike working on the track against much more powerful bikes and higher skilled riders was very satisfying, but as I said, its was also distracting. I had never run off that track before with this bike. Once I got my head totally into riding, it was all good.
Will consider your tyre options. I took a look at the one's Phil recommended. Almost slicks with much more side-wall contact area than my current Michelins. My track day partner has warmers, so I could run these (or any) pure track tyres.
However, tyres are a tough call financially, as I have a brand new set of Dunlop Q3+ already in my shop. Re-setting the suspension is something I can try without using up money for track days. Maybe I can do it all, but need to get the bike running sharper, first.
I need to download this Sugo race tuning manual. Good tip.
It has been suggested by a top tuner here that my installing Boyesen dual-stage reeds has added a restriction to the fuel/air flow. Believe I'll try the stock reeds again before starting to tune the jetting.
As always, I appreciate your help and keeping an eye on what I'm doing.
Steve
I'm ready to install the Zeel. The instructions that came with the box reference setting static timing @ 65 degrees. If static, can one of you gurus give me a lesson on how to do this?
As you might know, if you've read this far, my engine is not radical. But, the more I read, the more confused I get. Not hard for me to be confused, but this is a major step and I'll admit to ignorance for the sake of getting it right. I'm using a stock flywheel. Stock coils.
I'm not that far from stock, so the maps loaded at the factory would seem righteous, but I've read warnings about the static timing MUST be dialed in before further testing with the Zeel.
Maybe I need a new thread. "Phoenix" has risen, but a bit hampered gaining altitude. Advice still needed.
Phil's Zeel tuning "Stickie" is very helpful, but I don't believe I'm ready for his advice, pending this static timing question.
Thanks to any and all who can help me bump start the Zeel.
Steve
Do nothing
The 65 is a setting on the ignition timing (page 1)
All that does is tell the zeel what it's dealing with. The std 3XV engine has 65degrees as it's static angle. It's 43 on an RGV (same zeel box)
Just plug it in
The zeel needs more juice to kick it into life. Until you get the hang of it the amount of effort to start the engine might mean swinging a bit harder and for longer than before
Disclaimer: I haven't set up a zeel before so yeah.
As I understand it the static angle is just the distance between when the pickup gets the signal from the flywheel and TDC. This angle is used as reference for all your ignition timing points, for example, a 20degree timing advance point only makes sense if the zeel knows how many degrees after the pickup the piston will be at TDC. Once known (the static angle) then the zeel knows at what point 20degrees BTDC will be and then obviously when to fire the spark plug.
The different 3XV models have a few different flywheels with different lobes which means they all will have different static angles.
You can measure the static angle with a dial guage (to get TDC from the piston) and a degree wheel to get the distance between TDC and pickup. The preferred method is more practical and will confirm more accurately that you have the right static angle. Maccas explains it nicely in this post (from the ignitec thread which has some nice info regarding programmable ignitions as well if you have time) : http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=636.msg8735#msg8735
Once you have the appropriate marks on the flywheel and cases then you can program a flat curve into the zeel (16 degrees throughout the rev range) then adjust the static angle until the marks align using a strobe. This confirms the static angle practically and will ensure that the advance values programmed into the zeel will match real world values. Then you can punch in whatever curve you want.
But yeah the static angle is the most vital part, getting it wrong can mean unwanted advance or retarding.
I'm still trying to wrap mind around all this so I may have things upside down..
A simpler idea is to measure the length of the lug on the edge of the flywheel, and compare it to other people's 3XV using zeel. If the lug is the same length, then you can copy their static timing. As you have a basic 'R' model, it is most unlikely that it would be an odd length.
I would be 99% sure it's the same as Phil's, any chance you can post up the length of your lug Phil? say around the circumference from end to end..
All 3xv's should be 65 degrees. It's only the position of the back of the lobe that varies between some 3xv flywheels. But that doesn't affect how a zeel works.
However, it is definitely worth doing the strobe check as there is sometimes an offset between cylinders. Also the woodruff key isn't a perfect fit in the flywheel so the flywheel can move on the crank slightly before the nut is nipped up.
Static angle on my bike is 64 degrees, but then i had to offset one cylinder by 1 degree (in the zeel software) to get the static angle to match.
65 degrees will be very very close though. You can more than likely fit it and forget. What ignition curve are you planning to run?
Dan
Wow. Thanks boys. Very helpful. All good.
Phil - I like your answer. I do nothing pretty well. "Harder to start" with the Zeel is good to know. I tend to keep my battery charged. No real reason, as it currently starts with 1-3 kicks on choke. 1 kick if warm. Both happen when the battery is drained.
Karl - Appreciate the link and the details. Will read before plugging up the Zeel. Your intel makes a lot of sense, considering you've never done this. HA. I too am trying to wrap my head around how all this works. But, the results have to be better than the stock ECU.
Martin - Yeah. That's good advice. I tried to find the measurement you mentioned, but struck-out (US Baseball Term for failure). Let's see if someone can post the number you've recommended.
Dan - I haven't yet read your Ignitech link that Karl posted. Good info on the small variables I might encounter. I plan to start with the curve programmed by the factory. I understand the Borut owns a 3xv and this curve should be a good starting point.
Do you have a recommended curve for my set up? Right now the power is smooth and relatively snappy, but it won't rev past 11.3K rpm. You can read my track report of how much difference there was in jetting between testing near my home, compared to that of a local track.
I'm working on my throttle cables, carb sync and changing back to stock reed petals, today. Should have a report on the Zeel by Monday or Tuesday.
Getting all your opinions overnight was outstanding. Means a lot to me personally and hopefully, to my bike.
My best to you all.
Steve
Quote from: Martin77 on July 18, 2019, 11:32:44 AM
A simpler idea is to measure the length of the lug on the edge of the flywheel, and compare it to other people's 3XV using zeel. If the lug is the same length, then you can copy their static timing. As you have a basic 'R' model, it is most unlikely that it would be an odd length.
I would be 99% sure it's the same as Phil's, any chance you can post up the length of your lug Phil? say around the circumference from end to end..
I thought about that but then what if the lobe is in a different place and length. Would be nice to compare and document all the different flywheels..
On an unrelated note, you make a small appearance in the June issue of Practical Sportsbikes by the way.. p95 :)
Karl - Yes, If flywheels are different, a database of their triggers would be very helpful. I'm hoping someone posts the measurements for a 3xv1. Call me selfish.
I read the thread you posted referencing Dan's input. To be absolutely precise, both cylinders must be timed. Most enlightening.
My son (IT specialist for a local bank) has cleaned up an older IBM Thinkpad for my use with the Zeel. Im a MAC guy, so wish me luck.
Anything to promote Martin is good and welcome on this thread. Just saw another post today, wherein a 3xv fan is looking for his pipes.
Spent the day gathering up pieces for fabbing my new radiator mounts and ordering up jetting options. Must get busy on actually working on the bike. 8/10 track day at one of America's fastest and most technical track now looms large. Unfortunately, other famous US tracks that are more advantageous to the 3xv ("cough") Laguna Seca is about 4000 Km from here.
Thanks again, Karl. Hope this recent info helps others, as much as it has me.
Steve
Quote from: ybk on July 19, 2019, 12:36:12 AM
On an unrelated note, you make a small appearance in the June issue of Practical Sportsbikes by the way.. p95 :)
hah, yeah I saw, that was from years ago... complete with slightly disconnected caption!
After several attempts and much time appropriated to find a (RH) carb top cap to replace the TPI, I'm open to suggestions.
I have a top US rep attempting to source the part directly from Mikuni in Japan. It will take a while.
I'm thinking that the rear carb top cap could be adapted, but it has no part number.
I need a clue. An SP Crank was easier to find. I'd take a used (LH) carb top cap, as it will require modification anyway.
Ideas? Sources? I'm stuck.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
Quote from: Martin77 on July 19, 2019, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: ybk on July 19, 2019, 12:36:12 AM
On an unrelated note, you make a small appearance in the June issue of Practical Sportsbikes by the way.. p95 :)
hah, yeah I saw, that was from years ago... complete with slightly disconnected caption!
Guessing its you with the NSR Martin?
Quote from: Steveog on July 24, 2019, 02:10:43 AM
After several attempts and much time appropriated to find a (RH) carb top cap to replace the TPI, I'm open to suggestions.
I have a top US rep attempting to source the part directly from Mikuni in Japan. It will take a while.
I'm thinking that the rear carb top cap could be adapted, but it has no part number.
I need a clue. An SP Crank was easier to find. I'd take a used (LH) carb top cap, as it will require modification anyway.
Ideas? Sources? I'm stuck.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
There are quite a few TM28s on eBay you could cannibalize for parts, Steve. Alternatively mail one of the vendors of the new ones and ask if they can supply a top with straight cable holder separately perhaps?
I've used niche cycle in the US for carb bits in the past. They seem to be pretty good and may be able to supply just the top and cable holder: http://www.nichecycle.com/ncs/categories/carburetor/carburetors/mikuni-carburetors/flat-slide-carburetors.html
Lots of other bikes used the TM28s too, so maybe broaden your search if looking to find used carbs to use for parts? (-P)
Quote from: thump566 on July 24, 2019, 07:02:31 AM
Guessing its you with the NSR Martin?
yeah, that's me...
Steve, the carbs type is a Mikuni TM28SS, and were used on other bikes as Warwick says. I wonder if a 'standard' TM carb top will work, but you'd need a custom cable making I would guess. You could try this UK company that is a carb specialist; http://www.allensperformance.co.uk/ (http://www.allensperformance.co.uk/) and see what he says, or the price of parts. Whole carbs on are ebay, cheapest about £60 at the moment in the UK.
Gentlemen.
Warwick: I've used Niche Cycle for jets. Great service and pricing. Yes, they have a TM28SS in Stock. $131 USD. I guess I need to decide if I want to pay for the cap and adjuster and have carb parts left over. Looking at other bikes with this carb is a good idea, as one vendor told me, "Mikuni won't release OEM spec'd parts." As I said, Yamaha doesn't offer a part number for the cap. A classic mobius loop.
Martin: Will check your source. Ideally, the cable mount and adjuster from the TPS could be adapted to a new carb top. It mounts with a circlip and would swivel.
I've finally got the stock cable properly fixed to pull only the carbs. Oil pump and PV cables have been removed. Rewarding to beat that headache. The new cable has very little slack that could mess up carb sync. The pics are of that part of the cable that was broken. I will use Heavy Duty shrink wrap to finish it up.
All good advice. Thanks to you both.
Steve
I'm pretty sure that the top from any TM (VM)28 would fit as the basic body casting looks the same across the different types. To be honest though you could probably make a perfectly serviceable top yourself from suitable aluminium plate. Make up a suitable gasket from good gasket paper, drill a hole through the middle for a threaded adjuster and Bob's your uncle! 8)
Yeah. I'm liking the DIY idea...Because I finally got that throttle cable mod to behave, I already feel like Irv Kanamoto. Well, not quite, but it's easily the most complex sub-assembly on the whole bike or any bike I've ever worked on. Quite diabolical. I've included a pic of the finished cable. Very smooth. No catching.
I'm going to try what you've suggested. I've got the aluminum and gasket material from slapping together the oil pump cover. Seems I could get almost any standard cable mount/adjuster to stand-in. There's that lump on the underside that collects the spring, but that could be a separate piece, threaded through and held with the cable mount.
Wonder why one of our fellows here with a 3-D printer hasn't tried to make this part? Its not listed by Yamaha as a part and it would seem that more than a few of us might want to get rid of the TPS. There is a market it would seem.
Always good to know you're following my antics. Thank You.
Steve
Just got this from the UK. Its not even on their website yet. Great customer service. Competitive pricing.
Tested with heat gun. Works as expected.
tachos@scitsu.com Direct comments to Dylan.
That looks ideal, Steve. The adapter will fit directly in the TZ copy rad, yes?
Yes. Thanks. The rad mount thread is perfect. The sensor is a bit tough to make purchase in the mount. I was warned to not kink the cable, keep it smooth when finishing it up. When it got it here I thought it was misaligned, but it was just reading the air temp. HA.
The whole gauge system is passive, requiring no power or extra wiring. Need to fab a short-term mount. I don't want to bugger up the stock clocks, as someone might want them.
Steve
Have a good weekend.
Quote from: Steveog on July 25, 2019, 12:28:09 AM
Yeah. I'm liking the DIY idea...Because I finally got that throttle cable mod to behave, I already feel like Irv Kanamoto. Well, not quite, but it's easily the most complex sub-assembly on the whole bike or any bike I've ever worked on. Quite diabolical. I've included a pic of the finished cable. Very smooth. No catching.
I'm going to try what you've suggested. I've got the aluminum and gasket material from slapping together the oil pump cover. Seems I could get almost any standard cable mount/adjuster to stand-in. There's that lump on the underside that collects the spring, but that could be a separate piece, threaded through and held with the cable mount.
Wonder why one of our fellows here with a 3-D printer hasn't tried to make this part? Its not listed by Yamaha as a part and it would seem that more than a few of us might want to get rid of the TPS. There is a market it would seem.
Always good to know you're following my antics. Thank You.
Steve
Steve,
If you want to proceed with the 'make-your-own' carb top (great idea from Warwick!), you could try using aluminium plate 6-10mm thick. For the spring spigot, you could use an M14 bolt (with a portion of the thread turned down in a lathe to about 11-12mm diameter, to make a smooth spigot...and perhaps the height of the bolt head reduced as well) screwed into your home-made top (which would be drilled and tapped M14 to suit) and secured with Loctite or Araldite. While in the lathe, this bolt/spigot could be drilled and tapped for the cable adjuster.
A fine-thread M14 bolt would be best and you may be able to find a drain plug which fits the bill (I have Suzuki 09247-14025 to hand and it looks like it would work - thread is 19mm long, same pitch as a spark plug).
If you want to find something ready-made in the USA, there were a few models of Suzuki RM80 from the early to mid 1990s equipped with Mikuni TM28 carbs. The top from one of these will fit the 3XV TM28SS.
As a last resort, you could perhaps cut down the standard 3XV TPS housing to make a plain carb top...
I infer that most makers didn't supply carb bodies, tops and float bowls separately (at least not from the 1980s onwards) - perhaps they reasoned that if you need one of these parts, you probably need a whole new carb! Having said that, I have sometimes come across new OEM parts in packets which are not listed separately in parts catalogues ??? .
Let us know how you get on.
Regards,
James
Thanks, James. Great ideas. Solid thinking. I may go your route. But...
As Karma (coincidence) may have an effect here, I just happen to have a 1986 RM80 with a VM28 carb. I checked the specs and the carb cap is listed, but NLA through Suzuki (this is true for all years of the RM80.) But, if I cannibalize mine, the issue may be solved...quickly. I can easily cut a new gasket.
My main concern is control of the air jets, which my Zeel can handle, but with little time to find a dyno before the next track day, 8/10, I may cause a problem with jetting for the sake of convenience.
Lots of changes at once. New rad and gauges. New Ignition. Eliminating TPS. Setting up proper jetting for a very fast track in high heat and humidity.
I'm willing to try, but all the experts here say, "One thing at a time."
Maybe the rad, Zeel and dialing in the jetting are good for 8/10 and I hold off on eliminating the TPS until that test is complete.
Thanks again for your wisdom. Much appreciated.
Steve
I wouldn't worry unduly about the varible air jet system, Steve. You could test to see how much difference they make on your set-up by disconnecting them electronically though? Disconnected in this way it simply leaves the central jet in the VAJ block open - effectively giving you a fixed air jet - which is what the bike would have had if Yamaha weren't trying to get the bike through emissions testing for bike homologation by leaning it off at part throttle loads.
If it seems a little rich at part throttle with this set-up you could experiment with a slightly bigger fixed air jet? Anyway, the impact is not especially significant (when running a similar set-up to yours I simply had them disconnected electronically), but the quick test suggested would allow you to get a better idea of the effect they have.
I feel as though I should have know this, Warwick. I spent the winter reading the Forum and all I remember was that to eliminate the VAJ, the main air jet had to be relocated into the carb bell-mouth. Disconnecting is far easier and changing jets (if needed) would be also be much more simple than digging into the carb. Also saves the time of a tricky mod. Only 12 days until Atlanta. One of the most difficult pieces of asphalt in the US.
(Mystery rider from You Tube) 11&vid=344aab4c8129d9201ff35ff3b938e045&action=view
Yeah, I know the big 4T's will eat my lunch on the straight pieces. But, it should be fun. Bucket List Stuff.
Thanks for your tech tip. Spot on.
Steve
Yeah, certainly worth a quick experiment I'd say. Had I stayed with the 28mm carbs I would have probably gone over to a fixed air jet fitted directly in the bellmouth myself, but a jet in the VAJ block - or directly in the rubber pipe itself if you decide to ditch the blocks themselves later - performs the same function. (-P)
Atlanta...thats a long way to travel for a track day.
Or is there some other activities going on in the area as well?
Warwick - Yes. For the Atlanta Track Day, I'll just unplug the VAJ. Good/reassuring tip. Thanks
Busa - Yes. It's a three day trip from our Shop. I'm 69. My partner just turned 70, today. This is a team effort for us old guys. As I said, "Road Atlanta is Bucket List."
It's not as if we are wealthy and just jacking-off. We've been friends for almost 50 years. Riding street until 2018. Fortunately, we're still competent on the track.
The day will come...sooner than later...when that's no longer true. Much as when we were when 19..."take it while you can get it" is more true now than then.
I've got pictures of our truck and bikes if you're interested. Just PM me.
HA. Prayers are also welcomed.
Steve
I understand, was just wondering if there was something about that track in particular. (-P)
The bucket list is something I have been starting to concentrate on myself.....heading to Bonneville next month...
All my old riding buddies are either on Harleys now, or crashed back in the day and gave up riding...(actually almost all of them crashed at least once)
Good luck on your trip, hope you find what you are looking for on that historic track (-P)
Bonneville. Now, that's a trip in the literal and figurative sense of the Word.
I guess, the local racers have spoken of it in such hushed tones for so many years that Road Atlanta has become its own legend. That and the fact that Lawson, Spencer, Rainey and Schwantz all raced there during their AMA Superbike years. Also, guys such as Hayden. I've got autographs of some of those older guys, (HA...They're all younger than me), but got to know Nicky, personally. Owensboro, KY is only 30 miles from here.
We went to Mid-Ohio last year. Great track layout for a 2T, but the surface has been allowed to deteriorate. Neither Moto-America nor Code's Superbike School will go there. It's unridable if even marginally wet. So Atlanta got the nod this year.
I realize its all a bit futile on a small 2T, but ...
Good luck on the Salt. That's got to be fun.
Steve
Made some progress on the mods today. Fabbed up the mounts for the TZ pattern, dual-core radiator and roughed in the hoses. Yes, I know I need hose clamps. HA.
I picked those hoses because of their flexibility. They need a bit of trimming, but I love the look and lack of clutter.
Not silicone.
Steve
Edit (two hours later): I just realized the frame-mounts look like PVC. They are Delrin (Polyoxymethylene), sourced as a 1" rod, cut and drilled to fit. The lower mount will be re-enforced with polycarbonate. The upper edge of the rad will get a thin rubber bumper to avoid touching/vibrating against the frame.
Spent most of the day fabricating. The VAJ block was probably a lot of work for no good reason. But, they are both now unplugged and the plug mounts sealed.
Yes, Warwick. I know it would have been much easier to stick the primary VAJ jet in the rubber vac line feeding the carb, but I just got into building this mod. Pride of ownership and all that.
James. I did cannibalize my RM 80. The cap worked as promised. Thanks for the heads-up. I need to drill out the female threaded cable adjuster mount in the cap to accept the adjuster from the TPS. I'm using the stock cables, so the cable length should be close using the swiveling piece from the TPS.
Working toward getting the carbs finished, then adding the Zeel.
Only one needle clip was lost in today's activities.
Steve
Have you done a quick test run with the VAJ blocks disconnected, Steve? If not have you left things so that the electrics can be quickly and easily plugged back in if you find that on your set-up it doesn't work so well without the VAJ system working? I'm thinking that as you are still running pretty rich on the mains the reduced mixer nozzle air intake might make things a bit lumpy with the current jetting?
Will you have the time to experiment with jetting a little at your next trackday?
Rad looks neat. Overkill for now technically perhaps, but allowing the removal of the clutter of the thermostat housing is always good for motor access. You can always use a bit of tape if the motor is not getting warm enough on colder days of course, but I've rarely found this to be a problem with an SP rad running direct head feeds - and it's much cooler over here generally of course. :o
Yes, Warwick. My mod is pretty much "Quick-Change", except re-installing the TPS is of course is a bit fiddly. I'm hoping that I can eventually teach the Zeel to control the VAJ's.
No tests, yet. Hopefully, this weekend.
Understand on the Rad, but I've rationalized, that it's easier to add heat than take it away. That said, I just heard it was at least 15 degrees hotter in the UK yesterday, than here. That's unusual, but I'd be interested if other 3xv owners have experience "over-rich" running in you current weather?
Yes. Cleaning up the engine bay is rewarding. Now, to get the throttle and carbs sync'd up. That could require some modding.
As always, thanks for your insights and sharing experience.
Steve
If you are still using the -00 ignition for the time being it might be wise to connect up the TPS electics, strap it somewhere out of the way and wedge it in the full open position (just take the cover off and wedge something in to hold the arm in the full open position) as the TPS impacts the ignition curve (possibly powervalve operation too) as well as the VAJ.
I was planning to go to the Zeel with the pre-loaded curve, Warwick. I've had a look at the software and the TPS can be turned off. Believe you or Phil advised that.
If I run into a shit-storm of confusion with the Zeel, the -00 ECU, TPS and VAJ/plugs would be easy to re-adapt. Thanks for the advice on the TPS. I would have never had know that.
I know my basic set-up pretty well. I'd probably go to #12.5 pilots, (adjust air screw and idle accordingly, #2 clip on the needle, and 260/190 mains if I went back to the stock ECU.
I'll keep the mains at 200/270 with the Zeel. The needle and pilot and pilot stock.
Ran into a problem with the new temp gauge, but was able to get a new pattern sensor bolted up to the new rad, using the stock temp gauge.
Also, need to mod the mount for the RH coil, as the new Rad hoses now get in the way.
Lots to do, but feel good about the reasons for this work.
Have a good evening.
Steve.
Ah, OK. You should be all good in that case. I don't have any experience with the Zeel myself, but you should see a significant improvement in performance right off the bat with the programmed curve Id think as you will be getting rid of the current restricted ignition set-up.
Exciting times! 8) (-P)
Yes, I'm jazzed getting to this point. HA. Guess it was Phil who advised on the Zeel.
Regardless, thanks for YOUR support throughout.
Let's see how happy I am with the 3xv and my work come Monday.
Grandson will be here Saturday. Trying to corrupt him with a little bike, but his mom has a major "Jones" against motorcycles. My son (who rode earlier in his life), wisely supports her, while knowing the day will come when Ben wants to "ride around the yard like grandpa."
Best to you.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on August 01, 2019, 01:57:26 AM
Grandson will be here Saturday. Trying to corrupt him with a little bike, but his mom has a major "Jones" against motorcycles. My son (who rode earlier in his life), wisely supports her, while knowing the day will come when Ben wants to "ride around the yard like grandpa."
LT50, gateway drug ;)
HA. Thanks Karl. Good suggestion.
I was planning on getting the grandson(s) on the 1986 RM80, but it now has no carb, not to mention a violent power band.
My Best.
Its lunch break, here. Took the morning fabbing up a new RH coil mount, as the stock mount would have jammed the coil into the new rad hoses. Not good. That may have restricted the water flow (unlikely, as these a HD hoses, created a "wear point" and/or just looked like sloppy prep.
I modified the stock coil/faring mount, using 1/4" polycarbonate. Great stuff. It can be drilled, tapped, reduces vibration and never rusts or corrodes. Just need to get a ground back to the frame.
Need to check the faring clearance. That new radiator is bound to cause a problem.
Steve
Sorry about the typo on the picture.
Got the faring fitted. The TZ Rad is much wider than the stock version. The faring is fiber-glass so pretty easy to trim, but it had internal air passages molded in that had to be cut back. No big loss, as I'm not running racing air boxes. It was like working on a full-scale plastic model. The pics were done right after I roughed in the faring for fitment. I sanded down all the ragged edges. It's tight, but it all fits. Thinking of adding some heat resistant, thin padding to the spots where the rad touches the fiber-glass.
I also mounted up the Zeel. As you can see from the pictures, it talks to my laptop. I turned off the TPS, Warwick.
All good today. I even got a letter from Scitsu saying they will fully replace their temp gauge and sensor. Its a long story, but working with people who make good on "your" problems are to be applauded.
Good Evening All. Its beer O'Clock.
Steve
Steve,
How are the airjets currently programmed in the zeel? You want to be careful with that! If one is programmed to open at high rpm that could kill your engine.
Take a screenshot of the zeel pages after pressing 'read'. We can advise from there.
Dan
Quote from: Steveog on July 31, 2019, 05:33:01 PM
I'm hoping that I can eventually teach the Zeel to control the VAJ's.
Steve,
Firstly; I'm glad you didn't have to look far to find an RM80 carb top.
On the topic of air jets; If you want to ditch air jets completely (i.e. both variable and fixed), you could convert the carbs to 1KT Formula 3 specification - you'd never have to deal with air jets again!
Regards,
James
Thanks for looking out for me, boys.
Dan - Yes. I'll get a picture up within the the hour. I'm currently set-up to use only the fixed air jet in the VAJ. The VAJ blocks have been disconnected from the loom. I'm working under the proposition the simpler is better for now. I've read through Phil's "Zeel Set-up Stickie" many times and the idea of using the VAJ system for precision control of mid-throttle jetting is a long-term goal. I do appreciate your WARNING. The program was preloaded at the factory. I only turned off the TPS. Pics included. Obviously the bike was not running. At the moment, it has no carb. New pic coming soon.
James. Yes, I've considered eliminating the VAJ block altogether, but as I've explained above, there is an attraction to keeping the entire VAJ system. Maybe I'm wrong and that kind of programming is best left to guys like Phil. The nearest dyno I would trust with a 2T is about 3 hours away.
Can you explain the 1 KT Formula 3 mod?
Steve
Quote from: maccas on August 02, 2019, 09:10:53 AM
Steve,
How are the airjets currently programmed in the zeel? You want to be careful with that! If one is programmed to open at high rpm that could kill your engine.
Take a screenshot of the zeel pages after pressing 'read'. We can advise from there.
Dan
Here"s what I found in the Zeel. I didn't see a VAJ control, but that's why I need your advice. Thanks.
Steve
Here's a couple of zeel settings I have used in the past. Have a compare to what you have. I think you can download the .zee files if you want to. These were on my RS so may not be spot on for your bike, but at least you have something to compare with
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvcurveB.zee
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvcurveA.zee
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvcurve3.zee
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvcurve2.zee
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvcurve1.zee
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvbaseC1C2.zee
www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xv%202014%2010%2009.zee
Hey Thanks, Phil. Very generous. You can read about my set-up. Do you believe the preloaded file that came from the factory is a safe start?
I'm 200/270 on the mains. TPS is loaded as "off", per your recommendation.
Very kind of you to share curves you obviously spent time building.
Steve
As most of you know, when removing the TPS from the throttle system, extra slack is added to the cable at the point of mounting to the lower carb. The stock adjuster can't take up all the extra cable.
Here's a solution. You will need two stock TM28 carb adjusters and lock nuts, as well as a an extra heavy-duty shrink-wrap. The stuff I found also has "hot glue" on the inner surface. This junction is tight and solid. Believe the picture will explain how it all works. The open ends of each adjuster are just butted together. No drilling or re-tapping was needed. All parts can be used again.
The end result is very smooth and you can also retain the the TPS adjuster for future use or re-sale as a unit.
Now to get it all in sync with the rear carb.
Steve
Mostly good on test start. (No air boxes for test) It started fourth kick with the Zeel in place. Got the same overflow leakage from RH carb as I did right after rebuild. Wouldn't settle to an idle. Responded to throttle, but wanted to run at 7K. I shut it off after about 30 seconds. Switched back to -00 ECU. Same thing, just not as intense as with the Zeel. HA.
Yes, the TPS was shut-off. Didn't keep the -00 box hooked up long enough to notice anything except high rpm start-up.
Its got to be the carbs. Fuel overflow and screaming start-up are symptoms with which I'm familiar.
I had the bike disassembled down to the cases and the running chassis. No, I did not clean the carbs thoroughly before reassembly. I did replace the float needle valves though. Stock sizes.
I can't imagine the fixed air jets #20 in the VAJ blocks causing this kind of running.
Carbs were synced, cable pull seems on-target.
I'll start on the RH carb, Monday. Bet that will solve the problem. Then, get the idle and slow circuits tuned in...again.
Enjoy your weekend.
Is the r/h carb shutting off properly with the new cable fitting? idle settings should be pretty much the same as stock in my experience.
Yes, Martin. Slides on both carbs fully open and fully close in sync with each other. I messed around with the adjusters on the RH carb when the bike was running at around 7K, I could only make to rev more.
With the TPS gone there is no idle adjustment screw. The RH slide was on the dead bottom of its adjustment. I didn't try the air screw.
I believe some crap got into the float needle seat or fuel passage when I had the carbs apart. That would explain the overflow. Why I have a high rpm start up is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps my throttle cable mod threw things out of whack. I'll know more when I dig in.
No leaks in the new cooling system.
Thanks for checking in on me.
Steve
I just realized that I may have been misleading. I did not tear the bike down to the cases. The cylinders were left in place.
Note: My four year old grandson wanted to see the motorcycle(s). When we got to the shop, the RH carb was still leaking, despite the fact that I had turned the tap to "OFF". (I had a drain pan under the overflow tube.)
New mystery.
The LH carb was solid.
Steve
Junk can still get past the filters and affect the needle, otherwise float level (go to the minimum height, 15 or 16mm I think?)
What fuel tap are you using, the standard Yamaha item?
Karl - Yes. The float needle was the problem right after the initial rebuild. The float heights are good. I should have gone over the carbs when I had them off to refit the stock reeds. Lazy = Dumb.
Martin - I'm using an RGV tap. Guessing the dribble was coming from the fuel left in the lines and float bowl.
The over-rev on startup has got to be in my throttle cable. There's a weird little wheel inside the splitter that pulls the individual cables. I'm betting that's my problem area. Must fit a TZ dual cable system. The stock thing is making me nuts.
Thanks for your ideas and questions.
Enjoy your day, boys.
Quote from: Steveog on August 02, 2019, 05:07:08 PMCan you explain the 1 KT Formula 3 mod?
Basically, it involves changing the source of the atomiser air supply from 'external' to 'internal' (relative to the air box). The steps listed below may help you to visualise the modification:
1. Remove the brass plug from the atomiser air passage on the front of the bellmouth casting (easiest way is to remove the bellmouth casting from the carb body and punch out the plug from 'inside')
2. Block off the 'normal' atomiser air passage entry (the brass tube on the right-hand side of the bellmouth casting)
3. Replace the standard bleed-type atomiser with a primary-type atomiser (use Mikuni 159-series, which are available in a huge range of sizes)
4. Replace the standard needle with the Formula 3 kit needle (Mikuni 5EJ48), or use a needle of similar length, thickness and tapers (e.g. 5EJ11 etc.)
If you are using a non-3XV TM28SS carb (e.g. 1KT, 2YK, 2YY etc.), Step 1 will also involve punching out the main air jet which is pressed into the same passage. Note that 2XT carbs have brass plugs and main air jets which can be unscrewed (no need to punch out).
The modification means that the atomiser air supply will come from inside the air box instead of from outside. The advantages of the conversion are:
a) The complete elimination of all air jets
b) The use of atomisers which are available in a large range of sizes
Some people may want to argue that eliminating air jets is not an advantage, but I have found that this simplifies carb set-up considerably. Admittedly the 5EJ48 needle is not widely stocked, but it should still be available from Topham in Germany.
The 1KT Formula 3 kit manual explains how to do the carb conversion but if you have tinkered with these carbs before, Steps 1 to 4 above should be enough. I prefer to permanently block the normal 'external' atomiser air passage by removing the brass tube, drilling and tapping the passage and inserting a grub screw. However, securely crimping the rubber hose will have the same effect on a temporary basis.
If you need any more info, please ask! :)
Regards,
James
Thanks, James. Well written instructions.
I'd like a second set of carbs for such a mod, but I'm definitely in a "simplify" mood these days.
Fighting through a lot of changes at once right now. May have more questions on this, later.
Really appreciate the time you're taken to explain this.
Steve
Quote from: Martin77 on August 03, 2019, 10:39:09 PM
Is the r/h carb shutting off properly with the new cable fitting? idle settings should be pretty much the same as stock in my experience.
Very close, Martin. The cause of the high revs on start up turned out to be the throttle junction box. My new adjuster for the RH carb was so far off that it jammed the wheel inside the junction, pulling the slide up. A bit of fiddling and the two cables lined up. One kick and a steady idle (tick-over) @ 1500 RPM. This was on the choke with what was left in the float bowls, so not real test, but I know I'm on the right track for a test ride tomorrow.
Karl. You were absolutely correct about a dirty carb. I cleaned the (RH) carb completely. Overflow, solved.
Many thanks, gents.
Steve
Nice... I thought it was probably something like that.. always listen for the double 'clack' sound of the carb slide snapping shut when you release the twistgrip..
Is it soon time for some test riding?
Yes, Martin. A test ride or two this afternoon. That throttle cable still concerns me. Because the adjusters on the RH carb were causing the over-rev, now that I've got the cable-pull balanced I can't really use them to adjust the idle.
Perhaps the air mixture screw can help me dial things in. I've also gone to 12.5 pilots.
I'll post the results. Probably no plug chops today. Just need to see how it runs and cools in general. The temps here today will be around 32C+. A good test for the new radiator.
Thanks, as always.
Steve
Steve, if you are sticking with the 28mm carbs it might be worth taking a close look at the casting of the lower cyl carb body. You will see that it has the basic architecture to allow you to modify it to allow the fitment of the same kind of slide stop screw as the upper carb if you wanted to explore that option? Maybe even just look at using an upper cyl carb body for ease? Either way, I think it would be worth looking at replacing your home-brew cable with a twin pull throttle and separate cables as and when you can to make life as easy as possible?
What's the rationale for the 12.5 pilots? I'd have thought it wiser to run bigger than stock pilots if you can get away with it to give the motor a bit more lubrication on a closed throttle?
Would it be possible to fit a idle adjuster with one of these kits?
https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0045-Idle-Screw/dp/B000GTTFME (https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0045-Idle-Screw/dp/B000GTTFME)
Good news on the test ride, boys. Air temp 32C, humidity high. This is the kind of environment that would choke the original version. Zeel ECU, Toomey Radiator and Scitsu temp gauge installed. Running the air boxes and filters. Started first kick, but would barely idle (1K). Loaded up a bit and felt rich (spongy) at lower rpms. There is no leakage or other obvious issues.
GOOD NEWS: Te bike absolutely, fucking rips from 7-11.5K and was still pulling hard. Front end got light in second gear. This thing never wheelies...until now. No I did not pull on the bars.
Warwick, I was planning on a dual pull throttle, but I got my DIY version to work for the short term. The reason I went to #12.5 was advice about going down on the pilot if the air screws were backed out further than 2.5 turns. I was there on both carbs. Yes, I remembered your advice about staying rich on the pilots, but you can see how the two pieces of tuning advice might have conflicted. I was originally going to run #20 pilots. Could it be that the poor low end response is that I'm too lean? That wouldn't seem to explain the bike loading up a bit and smoking more at low rpm, but I'm willing to listen.
Yes, I'm sticking with the 28's for now...finances. I wondered if an idle adjustment screw could be added to the threaded blank spot on the RH carb. Will give it a try.
Thanks for the link, Martin. Will get to that after Atlanta. I finally know what your cylinder/head tuning feel like. "They feel like Victory." I want to move on to the rear ride height, but feel one more day on the engine would be a good idea.
Now. I'm a bit confused about the throttle response from 2-7K. Its mushy, but clears up with vengeance. Warwick mentioned that might be the case running only the fixed VAJ air jet. I'm using the stock Zeel setting #1. I feel this is all about jetting. The rest of my current setting are posted.
I am very happy with what you guys and others have helped me build. Phoenix has risen, if a bit grumpy getting out of bed. Thank You.
Sounds really promising, Steve. Just the fine tuning now then really. Now you are running the hotter ignition and the motor is not being held back by the -00 (also operating in restricted 'rev-capping' mode) this is the stage where you will need to proceed with a bit of additional caution of course in order to avoid expensive motor failure due to detonation. The part throttle stuff you can only really do by feel, but keep a very close eye on the plugs when assessing the mains
Exciting, if daunting, times... 8) :o (-P)
yeah, now you know what was hidden in the motor, just think how much better it's going to be on track..
Sounds to me like you will have to wind in the idle air screws to richen it up on low throttle openings. This is kinda normal, the pilot jet and air screws work in very slightly different areas, but with large overlap. What I mean is, #15 pilots with air screws 2 1/2 turns out might be similar to #12.5 pilots and air screws 1 turn out, but give slightly different throttle response at low openings. Basically, try things and see what works best, as Warwick says, do it by feel and take your time.
The Victory is not yet won... victory is crisp carburation, and surviving a trackday with a running engine..
Thanks, gentlemen. Was hoping for your feedback.
Warwick - I know the technique for proper plug chops, but you've got me thinking that easing up for 12K chop in sixth gear might be done in a series of steps. 10K, 11K and 12K all in sixth. Checking the plugs with each step as I move up the rev range. This engine has never seen more than 11.5K (on the stock tach) and plug reading with the same plugs I have now were a nice golden brown. Just an idea. Seems as though it couldn't hurt.
I can also now calibrate the tach using the Zeel. Seems like an easy process. Phil clued me on the "how to" using the adjustment on the back of bike's tach.
Martin - Of course, you're right. I wasn't claiming victory in a serious way. I was joking, using a dark reference from an American Movie, "Apocalypse Now." Its a somewhat common phrase here in the US, specifically for those 40+ years of age. This engine made it through one track day, so far. But, never saw more than 10K.
Yes, I will try the air screws, first today. If going richer improves things, I may consider changing the pilot back to #15 and the needle back to #3 position. The bike ran better from 4K with these setting on the -00 box.
The PV's seem to be pretty close as there is a smooth, but aggressive power-up right at the point the Zeel is opening the PV's. They may need a fine tune (per Phil's suggestions), but I want the bottom cleaned up, first.
Time to hit the shop.
Quote from: Steveog on August 06, 2019, 06:01:56 PM
I know the technique for proper plug chops, but you've got me thinking that easing up for 12K chop in sixth gear might be done in a series of steps. 10K, 11K and 12K all in sixth. Checking the plugs with each step as I move up the rev range. This engine has never seen more than 11.5K (on the stock tach) and plug reading with the same plugs I have now were a nice golden brown. Just an idea. Seems as though it couldn't hurt.
Certainly wouldn't hurt. Ultimately though it's more about
load than simple revs per se. Chopping the motor on a slight incline at max torque is always a good test, but, yeah, build up to it. And take you time. Better to be too rich than pushing the bike home... :o
Thanks. There's a nice gradual, mile long incline near our home. Will have to check the plugs tomorrow. Classic Indiana, summer thunderstorm headed our way.
It was only 28.8C here today. That could have made more difference than my minor jetting changes.
I did a bit of fiddling with the cables and air jets and got the bike to idle @ 1.2K. Pulled the slides up a bit and added 1/4 turn (IN) to the air screws. Pretty good from 5K to 12K. (Tach is now calibrated against the Zeel.) Its sluggish from just off idle. Should be snappier.
Although it means little, the plug is a bit oily when pulling in after my 3 mile loop. I can go to WOT in 3rd from 2K and it will pull with no hiccups, but again, doesn't get serious until 7K. Believe I ran into the rev limiter (set @ 12K). No, I'm not going to bump up the limiter, even though it wants to rev.
By the way, the track in Atlanta has large elevation changes. Should be a challenge.
A couple of plug chops. 12K+ 6th gear. Series 10R plugs. It was still pulling, so I cut the power at the top of a hill. Probably 3-4 seconds at max revs. Ambient temps 29C. Humidity less than yesterday, but not by much. I found a road that was totally exposed to sun. No trees or corn fields.
I worked up to this. The earlier chops at 11K seemed to show slightly more color to the shade of tan than shown in these pics. It was a very close call for me to judge any real difference. I'm thinking this looks good to go. The forecast for Atlanta on Saturday is 32C and partly cloudy.
I'd turned the air screws in another 1/4 turn for these chops. The bike was harder to start, things got noticeably richer on the bottom end and the bike was bucking a bit at low rpm (under 3K, light throttle). I've since set the air screw back to 1 1/4 turns out. Plan on another test today. We load up tomorrow afternoon.
Opinions welcomed.
Steve
Agreed, plug looks fine from what I can see.
I bet you're relieved to avoid the attentions of the speed cops after those runs! bike must be flying now 8)
Good luck for Atlanta, remember the tools, jets and plenty of bottle of water to drink!
HA. Yes. It wasn't "polite motoring". The police around us here are County Sheriffs. They see many unlicensed off-road bikes and ATV's on these farm roads, but not one traveling 190+ kph.
The bike screams from 7K to the rev-limit of 12.5K. Its an all-new bike. So thankful to see it come this far. Its been almost a full year since it ate the crank and the decision was made to improve it, not just fix it.
As you know, I've had a lot of help. I won't ride it again in anger until we get to the track. We're pretty well stocked for these track days. Lots of water and energy food.
Thanks, again for all you help, support and goodwill.
Steve
Not sure if you've seen this before or not.
No, I had only the most basic knowledge of plug-reading, Rick.
I believe my Mains are very close for our current ambient temps.
It's the idle and low rpm pick up where I'm having problems.
Thanks.
Steve
Track Day Report: I'll keep it short, as I'm one tired 2T fan.
The day was hot (34C) and humid (91%).
The track was spectacular. Lots of technical sections, extreme elevation changes, plus a really long straight with a blind drop of at least 300 feet.
Roberts, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz and Hayden all raced here before going on to World Championships.
The 3xv needs help in the low end and mid-range. Specifically mid-range when run in anger at such a facility. All jetting issues. It was a banshee from 9-12.5K.
I could run down some the bigger 4T's in the tricky sections, but many of these riders had experience on this track. This was my virgin ride here. Needless to say they eventually would pull away.
One specific hill would run me into the rev limiter in 2nd, but felt like clawing up marshmallows in third. As I said, "More mid-range, please."
The good news is: The bike survived this extreme abuse and a motocross-like moment thanks to misjudging a blind corner entry. Picture Rossi/Stoner at Laguna Seca, but over at least 100 yards of grass. Riders who saw it said, "Great Riding." The corner Marshall said, "That was Fucking Dangerous."
Very happy, overall. Lots of tuning in my future.
Enjoy your Sunday.
Steve
Welcome to a "normal" 2T track day :-) Expect the worst and enjoy it when it doesn't go wrong
Phil: Yes.
Thanks for following my thread.
Steve
It's always reassuring to return from the first serious/track test of a new motor with it all in one piece I reckon. Good stuff! Plenty of scope for playing around with the mid range carburation on the local roads, but bear in mind that the mains can have quite an effect here as well. I suppose the first thing to ascertain is if the issues stem from a too rich or too lean a condition there.
As you have the Zeel fitted now, it's also worth thinking about how well matched the pre-programmed ignition and PV maps are for the tuned cylinders. And bearing in mind that the -00 ignition and PV are set to give the maximum mid-range at the expense of top end. Judicious fiddling with the Zeel should allow you to get back most if not all of the -00s midrange though I expect.
It's a good day! 8)
Steve,
I just had a look at your PV curve. 100% at 9k will be fully opening the powervalve too soon I expect. Try 100% at 10k instead.
Your PV is opening too early too. Try 0% at 7k. That should get some of your bottom end back.
If you can get the bike on the dyno that will be the best way to set up the powervalve curve. Do repeated runs with the PV fixed at 0%, 10%, 20% etc. etc. then overlay the curves. The points where each curve crosses the next is your timing point.
One thing to bear in mind too is that with the 00 ignition, the airjets will be open at various throttle positions and revs. Now you are set up with them not coming on at all. You may need the airjets to get the bike fuelling well at part throttle before the bike gets up and onto the pipe. This isn't definitive of course. Try changing the PV curve first.
How did you arrive at your fully closed PV point by the way? I'd set the 0 point so that the powervalve is just about closing the sub-exhaust ports.
Dan
Thanks, guys.
Warwick - Yes. Returning from that track with the engine as one lump, is a testimony to new parts and Wossner pistons. There were more than one 4T that needed a ride back to the Paddock.
I didn't do a proper chop (but ran WOT for much of the day. It would seem the RH carb was on spec (#270 main). The LH carb by comparison appeared more lean, but had a bit of tan on the electrode. Maybe going to a 210 would be best for our summers. Pic of the LH plug included.
Dan - Thanks for the input on the Zeel. I was using the map as it came with the TPS turned off.
Yes. I can understand how the PV setting would be a good place to start in an attempt to re-gain the mid-range. Good suggestions. Thanks for following my set up.
I also believe returning the needles to their #3, stock position and going back to #15 pilots may help. I backed the air screws out 1/2 turn, but that made the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle response worse. I believe I was going the wrong way with the low-end settings.
Too many changes at once was probably my biggest problem on this track on this day. Time to start being more deliberate before going to the track, again. That may be mid to late September.
I'll try your PV suggestions first. Thanks for your input. I know this engine has potential yet to be unleashed. But, as strong as it is on the mains, it's simply harder to ride, fast...at least for me.
I also felt as if I had fuel starvation issues. On/off throttle at high rpm sometimes created noticeable hesitation. Plan on a modern fuel cap and adding a more TZ-like vent tube to the tank itself.
Also, going back through the LH carb is a priority I skipped over trying to get the bike ready for this adventure.
Finally, The throttle system must be changed to a dual-pull, TZ-Style. That would eliminate a big variable in the carburation.
Calling the 2T dyno guy in the morning. Just to see what his schedule might look like.
I have a lot to do before a dyno session. Including adding the slide adjustment screw to the RH carb.
Thanks for hanging with me, guys.
Steve
Since my last post, attempting to find a dual-cable pull throttle for my 3xv has been frustrating. I understand frustration is part of 2T addiction, but...
Buying the new TZ pieces is absurdly expensive. Are there any opinions, besides those intended for Harleys?
I've tried to communicate with specialized vendors about this. No joy. Unless I'm willing to pay for a custom application.
I've asked this question before. Perhaps I'm just being lazy and hoping one of you guys has an answer to work with, while I work on other issues.
I'm wanting a quicker than stock "turn" throttle mechanism for a 7/8" bar, dual cable-pull (which I can source once I have the throttle).
Yes, I'm cheap, lazy and yet want something very specific. I may also be delusional.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
The TZ ones come by on yahoo from time time if you want to investigate that route..can also be expensive though (something like this ? : https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t550336035 )
Regarding that spark plug - it looks a little on the lean side?
In the UK, these guys spring to mind immediately. Appreciate you are in the US but may be worth a look albeit yet another custom cable you may end up considering?
https://www.venhill.co.uk/
Just a thought.
Steve, onother suggestion from my side: as the bike is running now I would highly recommend to put in temp sensors into the pipes before going onto the dyno . That is the fastest and most reliable way to get the correct carb setting, also when having significant weather changes on track over the year. Maybe a Koso type of setup is affordable and (kind of) easy to build in...
Juergen
You need a lesson on how to use Google, Steve... ;D
https://www.fondseca.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1467&zenid=3186c316f64db8538151b04fdea624d5
http://www.meadspeed.com/products/yamaha/tz250/throttle
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Domino-Motorcycle-Twin-Pull-Throttle-Grips-For-Yamaha-TZ-Honda-NSR-Style-250cc/303147539287?hash=item4695005b57:g:S18AAOSwMEdc0vc2
Or perhaps the easiset for you:
https://www.treatland.tv/domino-dual-carburetor-throttle-assembly-1335-03-p/domino-dual-throttle-1335.03.htm
You'd then just need a universal throttle cable kit to make up the cables to suit - o get a pro outfit to make you up some? A local bicycle shop may even be able to make up you what you need?
Thanks to all.
Karl - Yes. I've found some TZ throttle pieces. Cost is usually my issue. That said, maybe this mod is just expensive and I need to suck it up.
Juergen - I've seen the EGT systems. It will be a bit before I get to the dyno. But, an EGT reference could only help. Appreciate the recommendation on an affordable solution. Our riding season can run through October (if we're lucky, even November). The temps and humidity can be comfortable to cool, as compared to right now. Jetting will obviously change.
Thump - Venhill seems to have only push/pull throttles. I just ran a quick scan. Could have missed it.
Warwick - Yes. Apparently I do need lessons...in many things. (HA). I've checked Fondesca and Donimo. They do offer some solutions, but as you pointed out, a bit of creativity is needed to build up a working system for a 3xv. Ebay in UK often returns results that yield "won't post to US". We both know this is a problem, specific to businesses, but does stop the incentive to find an answer, then need a bloke/broker. As I said, I just got Lazy. Yes. A bicycle shop would seem to be a good solution for custom cables. I do appreciate your help...deserved the sarcasm. HA.
I did purchase the Motion Pro throttle slide adjustment mod kit Martin suggested. I'm ready to get this throttle/carb sync issue behind me.
I knew this was a punk question. Glad you boys offered good solutions. I'll go hide in the shop now.
Steve
Yeah, I suppose the issue really is that once you are into this level of bespoke tuning/modification, few solutions are available that are simple 'bolt-on' or off the peg. The last link for the Domino set-up is a US company, and the second to last came up on a US eBay search, so both of those should be good for postage to you. Personally I use a TZ throttle on mine, which works really well. I had some TZ cables too, but we couldn't get them to route as neatly as we wanted so Martin very kindly made up the cables to hook up the TZ carbs when the bike was over at his place from a build-your-own-cable kit - the soldering of the nipples being the crucial part here.
The TZ unit is pretty 'quick action' though, and will have an even shorter pull with the 28s of course.... Might even feel a little too short in use with the 28s as there's effectively 10mm less slide movement than with the TZ carbs? I don't know how the Domino compares in terms of action, but I'd imagine that it too is really designed with a 36 or 38mm carb in mind?
The feel/pull being a possible variable with the smaller carbs, might it be worth looking again at buying a universal DIY cable kit (Venhill kits are good) and simplifying your existing set-up instead, maybe? A new single cable from the stock throttle to lose the first 'splitter' but running direct to the actual splitter box instead, with two all new cables from there to the carbs? That would probably be no more work than rigging up the dual pull throttle I reckon, and you still won't know how that set-up will actually feel with the little 28s until you are finished. And you'd save a chunk of cash too! 8)
If you don't feel comfortable tackling the cables, as I say, maybe have a chat to the local mountain bike workshop and see if they can help with making up the cables for you for that kind of set-up? That would be my own preferred course of action I think if I was running the 28s. Quite satisfying I reckon. And saving the price of the throttle would be a nice bonus too! (-P)
All good, Warwick. Details are very helpful.
I've seen some of the those single throttle cable-to-splitter systems on Motion Pro. Perhaps a phone call is in order, as they all appear to have only equal lengths following the splitter. As you discovered, cable lengths are crucial. I've got a text message into a good friend who's a bicycle nut who should be able to hook me up to his shop and tech(s).
Must be a luxury to have Martin as your "go to" man. He's helped and inspired me, long-range. If I had him available to tune my bike, "I'd be Bob's Uncle". Yes? (I have no idea what that means, BTW). I did find a great vintage bike guy with a modern machine shop, but while he's hip to 2t's, he's not a Guru.
I really want that dual cable "all the way" set up. I can live with a single cable splitter, if the cost gets out of hand. I got this.
Thanks.
Steve
Steve,
It's Bob's your uncle.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bobs-your-uncle.html
I used pushbike cables for my power valve motor. They had screwed clamps to the inner but could have been soldered.
Not messed with throttle ones though. Would need to be heavier.
Haha... I admire your attempts as weird british sayings Steve... (-P)
Making cables is very satisfying, but can take a few attempts sometimes. Reminds me, I need to buy some better quality cable cutting snips.
Be careful not to use bicycle cables though, they're usually stainless steel (hard to solder) and much too stiff. I buy inner/outer cable meant for kart throttle cables, and often make my own nipples ( :P). The smaller end nipples that go in the carbs are often soldered on even from yamaha, and thus cab be removed and used for your own cables. I often keep old broken cables just to take the nipples off.
Quote from: Scotty4321 on August 15, 2019, 08:40:55 PM
Steve,
It's Bob's your uncle.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bobs-your-uncle.html
I used pushbike cables for my power valve motor. They had screwed clamps to the inner but could have been soldered.
Not messed with throttle ones though. Would need to be heavier.
HA. Even the phrase dictionary doesn't explain why its used to mean "things are as they should be". I love the other derivations, too. Obviously, I'll just have to go with it. Fortunately, we all speak 2T. I'm using pre-mix with no TPS, Scotty. Thus the reason for wanting the lower carb to have its own cable. Thanks for your tip.
Quote from: Martin77 on August 15, 2019, 09:32:03 PM
Haha... I admire your attempts as weird british sayings Steve... (-P)
Making cables is very satisfying, but can take a few attempts sometimes. Reminds me, I need to buy some better quality cable cutting snips.
Be careful not to use bicycle cables though, they're usually stainless steel (hard to solder) and much too stiff. I buy inner/outer cable meant for kart throttle cables, and often make my own nipples ( :P). The smaller end nipples that go in the carbs are often soldered on even from Yamaha, and thus cab be removed and used for your own cables. I often keep old broken cables just to take the nipples off.
Yes. I get it, Martin. Thank You. I'm pretty good with soldering and have good quality cable cutting/crimping tools from my video production days. Digital coax, 110ohm is about the same diameter as motorcycle cables, so my current tools should work. I also have at least one nipple that was cut from the stock multi-cable. I can use that to test my effectiveness. Not sure if there's a Karting shop near me. The nearest kart tracks are at the same locations as the road course we use for track days.
"Robert's your auntie's husband", boys.
Steve
Quote from: 41juergen on August 15, 2019, 08:05:53 AM
Steve, onother suggestion from my side: as the bike is running now I would highly recommend to put in temp sensors into the pipes before going onto the dyno . That is the fastest and most reliable way to get the correct carb setting, also when having significant weather changes on track over the year. Maybe a Koso type of setup is affordable and (kind of) easy to build in...
Juergen
Thanks, Juergen. Been reading up on the EGT and wondering if the Koso system (which has a warning display) might not act as an insurance policy if a overheating were happening faster than I might see on the water temp gauge. Such as a cooling system hose/connection failure. An EGT system with "quick response" sensors isn't cheap, but one cylinder/piston failure would be far more expensive.
Where on the pipe is it mounted? There seems to be disagreement here on the Forum. What say you? I'm guessing the sensor mount must be welded into my pipes.
Appreciate your getting me to think about this. I don't have great resources, but this seems as if an EGT is a very sound investment in reliability. Jetting advantages notwithstanding.
All responses welcomed.
Steve
Spent some of my shop time yesterday adding a screw-type slide adjustment to the RH carb. A minor problem: the thread pitch on the only existing spot to mount the slide adjustment screw was slightly too, big. The kit I bought was intended for a Banshee and its carbs have a blank space for this kit to be mounted. So, last Friday, I filled the Vm28SS hole with JB epoxy. Yesterday I drilled and tapped the epoxy for the slide screw and lock nut.
I've included two pics and a video that should explain things.
I've since cleaned up the outer surface of the mounting hole (it came to me cracked a bit), but believe a rubber washer or o-ring is needed between the lock-nut and the carb body to avoid an air leak and make it less necessary to tighten the nut to the point it might strip the epoxy's threads. A spring between the head of the adjuster and the lock-nut might also add some reliability without putting stress on threads.
Comments and critiques appreciated, as always.
Steve
Have you looked at if it would be feasible to replicate the stock set-up of a spring, washer and O ring on the inside rather than thinking about sealing it with the locknut on the outside? (check the other carb to see how it works). Personally, I would have used an oe upper carb adjuster for this mod as I have spares to hand, but I reckon you could broadly replicate the stock set-up from the upper carb fairly well with a bit of modification to the kit you have there? Having the adjuster 'spring loaded' for easy adjustment like the other carb has to be better than the slightly 'agricultural' lock nut set-up doesn't it?
Damn. I thought this solution was pretty creative. HA. Truth often hurts.
Yes, Warwick your suggestion would be ideal. I wish I had a large collection of carb parts. But, I've only been "collecting" for a bit over a year.
This specific kit doesn't resemble the upper carb's adjuster much. As I stated, it was made for a Banshee. But, was an inexpensive solution.
My thinking is, if I can get this to work with a new throttle control for at least two more track days, I might consider a 32 or 36mm carb mod over winter.
Sorting out the 28's is priority one. I'm very close on the mains, need to get tick-over and smooth pick-up, as it was with the -00 box about this time, last year.
Thanks for your honest assessment of my current options. It may not be ideal, but clears the way for proper throttle cables and normal idle adjustments.
I did compare the "kit" to the OEM adjuster. The OEM is a tighter thread pitch..more accurate. But, the kit fits my current budget and strategy.
Tuning in the Zeel is all part of this, of course.
I've reset the pilot's to #15 and needles to #3 clip position. Even though richer, trackside tuning showed that "leaner" was wrong.
I do have a large selection of springs. I'll see what can be done internally, but didn't intend this to be a permanent solution...unless it worked.
Steve
Ha! Sorry if it came over a little abruptly, Steve. I was dashing a quick post out on my way out the door... So long as you effectively gain control of the slide stop so that the slide's not simply hanging on the cable at rest it will be a useful improvement over what you had before I'm sure. 8) (-P)
Hey, thanks Warwick. Your comment didn't seem abrupt at all. My first sentence was meant as a joke. I have bodged-up several mods that work, but need a bit more careful engineering. The throttle cable being one, recently.
I much prefer honest critiques to "feel good sunshine."
The video shows that the slide adjuster works. That lock-nut with an o-ring should hold the nose of the adjuster in place on the slide. I'll post the results once its all together. I'm ordering up the throttle cable today. I've decided to save a few bucks and go with the single cable/single splitter solution. Also, many more options for quicker turn throttle tubes. Your detailed write-up on using the TZ pieces with the 28mm carbs was very helpful in making this decision.
Steve
Quote from: thump566 on August 15, 2019, 07:10:21 AM
In the UK, these guys spring to mind immediately. Appreciate you are in the US but may be worth a look albeit yet another custom cable you may end up considering?
https://www.venhill.co.uk/
Just a thought.
Thump. I ended up with a DIY Venhill kit sold on Amazon here in the US. Under $60USD. Free shipping. Maybe this kit is what you were referencing. Regardless, the Venhill Kit isn't specifically as heavy as stock, but seems solid, offers plenty cable, Teflon liners and joining pieces that are perfect for my bike. Thanks.
Nothing new on the tuning front. I have the carbs off for thorough cleaning and evaluation of all parts. Looking for anything that might have been overlooked in the rush to get to the last track day.
Working toward a Track Day on September 14. My partner bought a 2002 Graves Racing R-1. Plenty for us both to do.
Steve
When looking at quick-turn throttles, I noticed that some were variable-ratio. So, I modded up an experimental progressive-variable idea using the stock 3xv throttle tube. The pics probably explain things, but that's a cable-tie being used to create the ramp for the throttle cable. The filler is JB Epoxy.
Between the two pictures, I trimmed things to be as precise as possible and cleaned up the ragged plastic. Finishing was done with a Dremel sanding drum, a sanding sponge, 320 grit sandpaper and a fresh utility knife blade. A groove was cut for cable-travel with a Dremel friction cutting disc. The throttle housing required at bit of grinding and filing to provide proper clearance.
Tests shows that it works smoothly to pull the slide from zero to full open. The original 3xv cable was 1/4 turn. This version is full open at about 3/16ths turn maybe a bit less.
Now to attach the new cables and tune the carbs.
Steve
Looks good, Steve. Be interseting to hear how it feels with the new cable set-up. (-P)
Hey, Thanks Warwick. It works well with the old throttle cable, but you're right...riding it is the only true test.
That's at least a week away. Going to try Dan's idea on the PV's (full closed to 7K. Full open at 10K. Also, Phil's sent me some of his RS maps. Great, generous starting points with the Zeel.
One big tuning variable is my dropping the VAJ. Wondering if, "because the bike was soft from pick-up to partial throttle, wouldn't it benefit from a leaner fixed air jet?"
Probably better to play with the basics first. YES?
Appreciate the support.
Steve
As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, when running a similar set-up (Sugo rather than Zeel ignition) I found the carburation to be fine through the range just with the central VAJ jet open, so I didn't experiment with any air jet changes.
Have you tried a quick experiment of swapping back to the -00 CDi with the air jet wiring left disconnected to see if that makes any improvement to the feel/drive lower down? If it does, that would suggest that it's the ignition or PV opening that you need to work on. If it's still poor, that would point more to the jetting (I'm guessing that you have checked that the central airjet is the correct fitment and clear here?).
The easiset way to experiment with the air jetting is to find some old small jets (or some nylon plugs maybe?) that you can drill to different sizes with micro-drills and fit directly in the end of the VAJ hoses to test. You need to bear in mind though that changing the size of the air jet will impact on the fuelling throughout the rev range to a grreater or lesser extent, so as always with these things, caution is your friend...
Lots to consider, Warwick. Yes, I remember your comment about running just the main air jet, but it was couched with the caveat that it might run a bit richer. Believe I showed my mod of the VAJ box (its unplugged and the secondary jets are covered. Pic included). I decided to leave the stock VAJ unit in place, thinking it would be easier to jump back to the stock config, if things were complete shit.
Because the bike was so strong between 7-12.5K rpm testing around my home and still great between 9-12.5 on Hellish hot track day, I don't believe I'll be going back to TPS and VAJ. Phil makes a great case for tuning with the stock system, but I'd like to find the answer to a clean-running average setting without the clutter of those sub-systems.
With what you've just said, (and Dan) I believe the answer is in the PV tuning. If I can get the mid-range close to the best stock running, I'll be happy.
Yes. Experimenting with the stock -00 ECU would be an easy test, helping to diagnose my current idle to mid-jetting running.
Thanks for the leads and options. If needed, I'll get a few appropriate air jets to play with.
Steve
I haven't posted any progress, because I had a major problem at our last track day. Everything I reported was true, but much as with some US media, "it's what I didn't say that was just plain "fake news"."
The hose coming from the radiator to the coolant pump impeller input blew off somewhere in the middle of session #6, mid-afternoon. Temps almost 100F. Things locked up quickly. I took the ride of shame back to the paddock with another unfortunate rider, who's R-6 also decided not to work in those conditions.
About an hour later, the bike was no longer locked and I was tempted to try a restart. My better angel said, "No, dumbass."
Meanwhile: My partner rode off the track in turn one at about 70mph. The grass wasn't very good traction. He slid out, low-side. At my insistence, we spent some time in "Medical". I believe he suffered a mild concussion.
With some help from fellows in the pits, we packed up, I cracked a cold one and set off for home. Road Atlanta is a Hell of a Track. We were not the first nor last to discover its tricks. But, we will be back.
Back in the shop: The LH cylinder and piston were torched. No hope. The cylinder has since been repaired, plated, honed and back home on the engine. I had a pair of back-up Wossner piston kits. (planning for 2020. HA. Having back-up now means, "I stand a good chance of making a Track Day on 9/28".)
The RH piston was pitted on the crown, but salvageable. The head unscathed. It wasn't apparent at first, but the RH piston had obviously made contact with the head. When I pulled the piston for inspection, the reason for failure was obvious. The wrist pin bearing had failed. Probably due to overheating and loss of lube.
So, thanks to Martin 77 I have a new LH head skimmed and volume validated. (Thanks to JSNook, I had all the Wossner parts. Thanks to Warwick and ybk for their kind ear and positive advice. Thanks to my local bank for extending a bit of credit.)
I now have a new, silicone hose feeding the engine, plus appropriate clamps.
I apologize to The Forum members who have followed my adventure for delays in this reporting. Simply, I was embarrassed, as I had just rebuilt the 3xv. I double checked the hose. It was cinched properly, but my personal philosophy is, "The last one to touch it has the fault."
So, here's Phoenix v.2 engine. Ready for reeds and carbs. Looking forward to getting back to tuning. Dan M had a good suggestion for programming the Zeel. I'll start there.
Back to the future.
Steve
I'd imagine that there are very few of us who haven't made a few unexpected offerings to the Gods of Speed, Steve. Don't worry about it - It's all part of the price of membership of the congregation... :))
Thanks, Pastor. HA. I guess confession is good after all.
About to finish the engine. Discovered that the stock reed stops were not to SP specs. Believe it was ybk who tried to tell me what to do. Re: Adjusting reed stops for an M77 porting job. But, my measuring tools then, must have been prehistoric. Today, using proper calipers, I discovered that the stops were way under fully open.
Wondering how this might effect jetting. Seems it could lean things out, but my mains are currently dialed. I have larger jets available. Currently running 270/200.
Will have engine in chassis and carbs installed, soon...hopefully Saturday.
Again, yours and all the support here are well appreciated.
Steve
A seized motor weighs heavy on the spirit so it's good to have it back together! (-P) Not sure how much of an effect the reeds will have but if Yamaha thought it worthwhile then it's probably worth it.
Probably not much change to jetting compared to the 'restricted' R reed stop height..
The seize was in some ways a lucky incident, in terms of the small end breaking up on the other side, saving it from more damage if the rollers came out. Having one cylinder to plate is a pain, having too is twice the pain.
Anyway, I have a small shelf of broken pistons. For some reason throwing them away seems like a waste, even though they're no good... offerings at the alter to the god of two strokes.
Thanks, Guys. Your support is/has been invaluable.
Karel - On the angled side of the reed black, the stopper appears to have taken a a few kisses from the petals. I polished those stoppers before the first re-assembly. Makes me think the motor wanted to pull more mixture. Concerning SP spec on the stoppers, I'm now sorted. As you say, Yamaha must have believed it was a good idea.
Martin - Good to know I'm probably not looking at a re-jet on the mains. Yeah, I'm keeping all the broken stuff, too. A good reminder to double check all work as I go and that the gods of 2T entropy are always lurking.
Hope to have a test start by Monday or Tuesday. Weather here is good. Warmish, but low humidity.
Enjoy your weekend, Boys.
Steve
Following up on Marin's thought, "that these problems can often be good fortune", I'll share one more "look-back" at the recent build that was a pain in the ass, but could have been much worse.
This re-build was only going to be the cylinders, pistons and heads. However, after mounting the pistons and about to install the cylinders, I rotated the crank with the flywheel and there was an occasional drag and hanging-up on the otherwise smooth rotation. After checking further, I could hear an occasional screeching sound. Oh Shit. There was only one thing to do. Pull the crank. I consulted M77 in a PM and he predicted it was a bearing. I was praying for a piece of piston wedged into the web run. But, I'd already blown a lot of air through the crank cavity. I had also coated the crank with some thick petroleum grease, hoping to pick-up any loose metal. No evidence of broken pieces. If the center bearing was harboring a piece of schmutz, the crank would have to be rebuilt. "No more fun of any kind."
Well, Martin was right. But, fortunately the 2T gods were with me on this one. I found a tiny piece of metal wedged into the outer LH bearing race and removed it with a mechanic's pick. If I had proceeded to start the engine with that tiny piece still in the bearing, things could have gone bad quickly. Having the crank out also gave me a chance to cleanup the areas of burnt oil and thoroughly clean, blow-dry and properly lube up the crank and check all the oil journals in the cases. Peace of mind.
That crank was new with only about 5-6 hours of use in anger. All tolerance/specs were good to go. The rods' upper ends looked good.
I'm going to the Shop to install the engine, RH Carb, then build out the throttle cables.
Good day to all.
Steve
Having experienced the pleasures of a broken engine on a few occasions, you learn debris can get everywhere..hence thinking there was some bits in the bearing.
Thanks, again for your instincts, Martin. The sharing of experiences on this Forum is perhaps its greatest asset for guys like me. Hoping there's someone who can benefit from my story. Someone once made the analogy, "that a 2T is much like an exotic animal. Requiring special care and feeding. Even then, it might not want to be tamed."
The hang-ups and metal-on-metal scraping sounds were intermittent. The crank would rotate free for 10 revs, then catch or scrape. After it stopped completely, I called in the the specialist and pulled the crank.
Good day in the shop. The engine is mounted and some work done on the magneto, flywheel and the cooling system. The new primary radiator hose is 1" in diameter. Its in two pieces to custom fit the TZR coolant impeller housing to the dual-core TZ radiator, which are different OD's. I heat-bonded a piece of PVC to the stock housing. It matches the new hose to spec. Out of pure paranoid, OCD, I plan to safety wire the new silicone hose clamp to two of the hex-heads on the impeller cover. I'm not sure why the hose failed on 8/16, but it will not fail again.
I didn't bother trying to clean up the shop for a wide shot of the bike. Those cracks in the floor are probably due to coal mine-blasting, but they've been there for 15 years.
Its amazing how much easier mounting the engine was this time.
Time for a cold one. Thanks again, Martin...and to all who have offered help.
Steve
My only minor concern with the water pump exit pvc tube, is if it has a straight surface without a little ridge, it might be a bit 'smooth' for the hose to grip onto. I guess it's tapered a bit which will help hold it?
Good day's work though!
Soon be time for testing again :)
Yes. Good point, Martin. The PVC does flange out a bit. It was heated to fit. The hose material gets good traction on the PVC.
The alternative is to over-tighten the hose to the stock piece. That's why I chose to use safety wire on the clamp to be sure.
Testing soon. Hoping for a start-up no later than Tuesday. Building out the throttle cable is the only "job" I'm facing. The rest is paint by the numbers.
Thanks for keeping an eye on me.
Steve
Got the lower carb fully modded for idle control. The spot that was intended to mount an idle adjustment screw was cracked-off when I got the bike, so this mod has seen some evolution. It works in practice (with no engine vacuum). If this doesn't work with the engine running, I'm screwed (literally) as I don't have time or money for a new carb at the moment and a track day is scheduled for the 28th.
I thought this would be my last engineering before assembly and testing, but the lower exhaust flange cracked at its mounting point. I could bodge up a fix that would work, but I ordered some stuff called "Alumaloy". >https://www.alumaloy.com/< If you don't care to look at the the site, its a rod that can weld aluminum, but doesn't require anything except a propane torch. Its low-temp stuff, relatively speaking. Much like solder, but it "becomes aluminum".
My exhaust flange is unique to my pipes, I believe. They only match DFR units. Yamaha flanges are NLA. Yes, I have a tech who welds aluminum, but he's a bit unrelaible and I can't deal with his vague deadlines. Shopping around for such specialty work will take more time than its likely to yield good results.
The demos and comments about this Alumoly seem positive, but I'm wondering if any here have used this stuff. Your reviews would most appreciated, as I can start work on my "shade tree" solution if this stuff is bogus. It only cost me $10 for 5 X 1/16inch rods. I'll have it Friday.
Thank to all.
Steve
Well, now I know how tricky building out a one-into-two cable can be. I used a Vinton Kit. Its far more simple and much lighter than the diabolical stock version. It works and the carbs are sync'd, but the action is stiff. Lubing it properly would seem to be the solution. HA. Here's a video of the throttle working and what the details look like. Not very exciting, but part of the story.
Looking forward to the "Alumaloy" getting here tomorrow. I showed the break in the exhaust flange to large industrial shop that built our transport. They were dubious about welding that specific aluminum casting on a part that would be very hard to fix otherwise.
Thanks
Steve
My DFR's flange also snapped off the bit where the bolt tightens. Previous owner probably overtightened as it actually bent up a bit. I had it welded up and 'filled in' then just filed and sanded it all down to the original size and shape.
Nice one with the throttle (-P)
Thanks, Karel. Yes, the other side of the same flange looks slightly stressed (bent a bit), too. I can't blame anyone other than myself for it braking, though.
Wondering if a thick, high-temp O-Ring acting as a washer behind the flange wouldn't save this expensive part from unnecessary stress. Place the O-Ring over stud, supporting the flange. Might give the flange some needed help as opposed to just air.
The industrial guys I spoke with are good, but not motorcycle specialists. As I said, my "bike" man is just not reliable...although talented.
If this "Alumoly" doesn't work, I've got some aluminum stock standing by to build up a way to tighten the flange and still make this last Track Day. It won't be pretty, but will seal the pipe to the exhaust port.
I really appreciate your support for fixing this crucial piece of kit.
As we go into fall/winter, hope your spring/summer treats you well.
Steve
PS - Concerning the throttle. Hard to believe I had a 45 year career in video production. After fiddling with the throttle mechanism most of the day, I just bodged up the video. HA. Regardless. Kind words: Good.
Good to have that cable sorted, eh? What's the reason for making it so long? (I can;t quite see from the pics, but I'm assuming the upper cyl carb cable must loop right round the engine bay?
Yes, Warwick having this cable in place is a noticable improvement. Much better now that its properly lubed. HA. The quick-turn throttle I modded up works as I had hoped. Even with the higher ratio the overall pull is lighter than the original.
Your observation is spot on. I chose that cable length to allow more options when snaking around rear carb air box. I've also installed some large, in-line fuel filters for each carb. This meant a new piece of fuel line. Just wanted to make it all fit with minimum hassle. I will have the whole winter to tweak and clean-up the entire engine compartment. Still too many wires, too.
I tried that Alumaloy rod on the broken exhaust flange. I got it to melt but, obviously the cast aluminum of the flange, just didn't get hot enough. It needs to be properly welded. Another winter project for my heli-arc guy. In the mean time, what do you think of this solution?
I cut a template of the flange that is about 1mm thinner than the portion that holds the exhaust gasket. Obviously, I need to drill out the holes for the studs, but it seems that the big chunk of flange would hold the gasket in place and the smaller piece would be anchored by the template. Using the spring mount on the right, would allow adding safety wire to hold the big section to the right hand stud, holding the gasket square and get me through the last track day. It also saves any further destruction of the pieces of flange.
Sound OK, or is it hard to visualize? I know its probably the most outrageous "shade tree" idea I've yet proposed, but I'm stuck. Still need to change the tyres, run-in an almost all new engine, test and tune the bike all in one week. Any opinions/options would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your looking in on me.
Have a good weekend.
Steve
Steve,
Are you saying that you have the copper gaskets fitted in the cylinders?
If so, that is why you have cracked the flanges. They are designed to fit straight into the cylinders with the gasket removed. You seal them with a bead of high temp silicone!
I'll get a picture for you tomorrow.
Dan
Thanks, Dan. No. I'm using pattern gaskets from CrusinImage.
I believe I broke the flange after I installed a new stud in the lower cylinder. I did not take the time to rotate the bike...attempting to apply a "snug-up" of the flange by reaching under the cylinder. I heard a crack, but was shocked to discover the flange had broken.
I used these same exhaust gaskets with RTV on the original re-build. All good. They held up well, even when the bike "heat-seized" in mid-August.
If I'm wrong, I honor your expertise. Any help is appreciated.
Steve
You shouldn't be using an exhaust gasket at all with those flanges. The flange should sit flush against the exhaust exit from the cylinder. I'll send a pic across tomorrow.
Dan
I'll look forward to seeing what you've got. The bike came with thin copper gaskets. (???) The pattern gaskets were about twice as thick.
This time things need to be done properly. I get what you're saying about using RTV as opposed to ANY/NO gasket. The Expansion Chamber has an O-ring groove to seat into the flange-mount for proper sealing. New, Hi-Temp O-Rings, standing by. I've been using RTV mounting the pipe to the flange, too.
Yes. No wonder the flange broke. They were under unneeded stress this whole f'ing time. I had no idea. The DFR site is not very helpful on this subject.
What's your opinion of my one day "fix"? I'm guessing proceed using the RTV, but lose the template AND the gasket. Tighten down with safety wire is the question.
Thanks again.
Steve
Hmmmm...
Most of this TZR stuff is still a bit new to me, but...
Looking at what you are showing, I would say that you are putting the plate between the cylinder and the flange.
If this is correct, I dont see how that is going to hold down the larger section...it would be just like bolting it down with no plate.
If you were to put the plate over the flange in some manner, then that would keep it held down to some degree.
But I would worry about the possibility of it leaking again....which could suck air in as well? ....Possibly causing it to lean out and....?
Putting the plate between the cylinder and flange also causes more of a gap where the flange is supposed to meet the cylinder to seal.
This is just my observation.....From a long term RGV owner :-X
The flange needs welding or replacing really, Steve, but you might achieve a reasonably secure fix for the time being by drilling parallel through the two parts, tapping the larger part and using a couple of small screws to hold it together - maybe with a bit of JB weld or similar too?
Dan's right about the gasket situation, Just use high temp sealant or cut some thin heat resistant gasket material rings with those flanges. Cutting similar 'plates' from good gasket material to fit between the flange part and cylinder face to take up any void there puts less stress on the 'arms' of the flange when you tighten it all up. (-P)
I guess all you can do is try it.. see how it feels and just be aware it may not last the day if you decide to use it. Only you can make that decision... you'll probably hear it if it starts to leak a lot, and if it does, stop riding as it can cause problems.
Are there some other workshops in Warrick county that could weld it sooner?
Pic as promised. They can't crack when fitted like this.
Dan
Busa - Sorry I didn't pick up your note, earlier. Your absolutely right. Just the plate doesn't support anything. I was going to use safety wire to hold down the bigger chunk. I built that plate as a spacer to take stress off of the broken pieces before Dan pointed out there should be no gasket at all for the DFR flange.
Fortunately, Boonville, is to southern Indiana as Banbury is to the UK. HA. Only on a much smaller scale. Motorsports specialists of all sorts. Mostly car guys, but nationally famous Top Guns. After a few phone calls, I got in touch with THE welding Guru of the group. He also builds race engines for NASCAR and NHRA Drag Racing. He took the job "on-call". The flange is now welded up solid.
Yes, Martin. Boonville is in Warwick, Co.
Thanks for you comment, Busa. Glad I can move forward with a proper fix.
Steve
Excellent! every workshop needs a girly poster/calendar*, even the best ones..
(*except mine cos I support feminism)
HA. Thanks. Cheryl Teague is very tame compared to some shops I've seen.
I'll post a pic of the finished flange once I'm off my phone.
Steve
Added later that afternoon: Cleaned up the flange mating surface with Dremel, hand files and mounted it on the bike. Grateful to get this done today. I don't believe in luck, but when circumstances turns toward you on this level, I could be convinced. Turns out the machinist/welder/R&D guru trained the guy I usually use.
That looks great, Steve! Always better to do the job properly, and your man certainly did a solid job on that. And you've finished it off perfectly too. Great stuff! (-P)
As always, your support and kind words are most appreciated, Warwick. Finding this guy shocked the Hell out of me, but it also felt as if I'd discovered a secret society in a little town of about 3000. His back-story is a movie.
Gotta give Martin a shout for asking an obvious, but motivating question.
Just a couple of loose ends to button-up and I'm now looking forward to a start-up. Feel good about making that track day.
Enjoy your Sunday.
Steve
Quote from: Martin77 on September 15, 2019, 10:43:30 AM
My only minor concern with the water pump exit pvc tube, is if it has a straight surface without a little ridge, it might be a bit 'smooth' for the hose to grip onto. I guess it's tapered a bit which will help hold it?
Soon be time for testing again :)
I finished up the engine today and outside some high temp exhaust O-Rings, its ready for a test start. I'll get those in the morning. Only a week late, but I'm my only client. I can't fire me.
Martin was right about that PVC not being a good solution. The new HD, Silicone Rad hose was a tight fit, but when tightening with appropriate silicone clamps, the pressure made hose crawl way from impeller input. Not good. Tried this a couple of times. No joy.
After removing the plastic shim, the hose tightened up around the stock piece nicely. Those clamps don't have the standard thread-divots of stock hose clamps (they're smooth at the contact point), so the new hose wasn't torn.
I pulled on it with my weight and legs braced on the bike. Now, I'm not that strong, but my overall size, plus leg muscles put at a lot of torque into the test. Everything was solid. I'm going with this configuration.
Thanks, Martin...and all who've offers advice and help.
Steve
Reattaching the expansion chambers was real test. Important tip for others: Install the lower pipe, first. Used RTV and O-ring inside the pipes mouth. Had to get on my back to put tension on the springs. No. I don't have a build stand, but its on my wish list.
So, added distilled water, Yamlaube (10W-40), built-up a gravity feed tank with 110 Leaded/Castrol A-747 (25:1) then parked the bike at to door of my shop...pipes facing out and gave her a kick or six. Nothing. DUH. Turn on the fuel feed. Nervous? About 6 more kicks on choke and she coughed. One more. Complete Joy. I thought. The lower cylinder's exhaust was smoking, but the upper wasn't. Then it back-fired. Immediate shut down..
Figuring a bad plug (still using the plugs from the heat-seize in August) I started to swap them out. The upper was dry. The lower oily, as expected. But, the real problem happened somewhere during the build, I had knocked the bladed wire from the upper cylinder coil off its connection. Big Rush.
Two more kicks. No choke. Welcome to fall. Responded to throttle, eagerly. Sounded healthy. Didn't take her past 7K nor a full heat cycle, but did get it to 45C. Stopped. Personally, worn Out. Emotionally drained. Adrenaline is a Hell of a Drug.
Weather here should be great over the next week. Hope to ride it by Wednesday. Track day is scheduled to be about 10 degrees cooler than Atlanta. I don't plan any jetting changes to the mains. The mid-range may take care of itself with a bit of fiddling with the air jets. The idle is great where it is, now.
I know I'm not done nor am I over-confident. Just play it through.
Thanks for everyone's help and support.
Steve
Sounds fine, Steve. Good to be back up and running, eh?
As a point of interest, your intake 'downpipe' for the lower cyl airbox is an SP part. The R/RS part doesn't have the little 'resonator chamber' or whatever it is attached to the side. I've always assumed that on the early SP models with the big 36mm carbs that the little chamber was fitted as some kind of intake pulse smoother or something? Anyway, as yours has the smaller 28mm R carbs, it might be worth removing the little chamber (It's just a push fit into a rubber grommet) and sealing the hole that is left in order to mimic the stock R intake pipe - just as an experiment to see if it makes any difference to lower rpm running if nothing else?
Or if he wants he could trade me for the stock R one i have for it.
Thanks for the comments, gents.
Warwick. Yes. Hearing her fire up was a great relief and exhilarating moment. An experience I cannot replicate by simply riding. They're both so different, but I guess that's part of the magic of this 2T.
If you remember, my bike also came with an SP upper air box. Hmmm.
It would be interesting to test removing that resonator chamber on the lower carbs inlet. Thanks for the heads up. Anything to clean up the low to mid-range would be very helpful. Plus, just a bit less clutter.
What a weird collection of original parts. My bike came with no speed sensor on the speedo, DFR pipes and the SP air intake goodies. WTF. It's as though it were built in a shop with a butt-load of TZR parts. No fingers will be pointed here. HA.
Rick - Thanks for the offer, but as my bike becomes less of an "R" and more of a "custom-something", I'll just test Warwick's idea with a plug. Thanks for all of your continuing input. I'm now closer to the track bike you first recommended over a year ago.
Tomorrow: More heat-cycles, reprogram the Zeel for PV and clean-up the disaster that has become my shop.
You know I appreciate you and all who have helped get me to a rewarding day with this bike.
Steve
Quote from: Warwick on September 21, 2019, 09:32:38 AM
Dan's right about the gasket situation, Just use high temp sealant or cut some thin heat resistant gasket material rings with those flanges. Cutting similar 'plates' from good gasket material to fit between the flange part and cylinder face to take up any void there puts less stress on the 'arms' of the flange when you tighten it all up. (-P)
The bike has been through start-up and four heat cycles on the stands. Had hopes of riding it today. But, this morning I noticed two very small black splotches on my shop floor. Traced both leaks to the flanges. Interestingly, the cylinder has a spot at the bottom of the opening to the exhaust that opens completely to the outside. So, when the flange is fitted, there is an obvious spot to leak.
I'm guessing Warwick was correct in suggesting I cut some thin gasket material to seal the flange. The inner ring on the flange is letting exhaust gases/oil to pass through to the escape through that small cut-out in the cylinder. The evidence of the oil on this inner ring was obvious, once I got the upper flange off.
My question: Should I cut the 1mm gasket material to fit only the inner ring? It seems if I cut material for the outer section, too there would still be a gap inside the cylinder where the ring joins the cylinder.
Any guidance would help, as I now need to let the sealant set up overnight before starting her up. I've got other stuff to do and am now confident it will run, but this is my last night to fix this before test riding and tuning.
Thanks
Steve
I'm surprised it's leaking Steve! Mine have been running like that for 5 years and don't leak from that joint. Did you put plenty of sealant on the round face of the flange?
Gasket paper might work but you'll need to find something that is upto the temperature.
Dan
Thanks for your quick response, Dan. I used plenty of sealant, a bit more than I would have to seal the engine cases. I have the feeling that I may have not allowed it to cure long enough, originally. Once the seal was broken...well it was going to continue to leak. Make sense?
I'll test fit the repaired flange to be sure it seats. It only leaked at the internal ring, then out the at opening in the cylinder.
I only have normal paper gaskets in hand. Sounds as if that's not a good plan. I'll carefully re-seal the flange and allow it to properly cure.
Back to work.
My Best
Steve
If using suitable gasket material you need to do the ring bit to make the seal between the the face of the flange and the exhaust outlet inner ring. The other plate gasket on the outside of the cylinder takes up any void then left twixt the face of the flange arms and face of the cylinder. It's more hassle than using sealant though, and, as Dan notes, the sealant should really do the trick well enough if all the faces are good and it's good sealant etc.
That makes sense, Warwick. Believe I've isolated my problem. "Being too sparing with RTV." This stuff is made by J&B and the best Hi-Temp stuff they make.
I also didn't let it set-up long enough.
Thanks for your getting me your opinion, so quickly. I'm onto the second cylinder, now. No gaskets, just sealant.
I'm beginning to understand why the bike came with a small/thin brass gasket that sat between the flange and the cylinder. Easy. Less messy. Cop-out. Destined to cost me money.
All good. I can get a lot of other stuff done today.
Steve
Youve made me want to re-examine the mounting of my pipes now.When i first got it the martin 77 pipes were blowing oil out of the flange collar, so i took them off and cleaned everything up, and replaced the pipes and the gasket using high temp sealant, i then sealed the flange collar around the pipe.It cured the problem, but i will now remove them again and take out the copper gasket and then re-seal with just sealant ,i think i was a bit stingy with the sealant, around the gap between the pipe and flange collar.
Bulldog. Martin has said that he never uses O-Rings or gaskets, only RTV on his own exhaust systems.
After a final heat cycle this morning, no leaks here. In fact, I took her out for a first ride. Still no leaks.
A big shout to Dan M. and Phil M. for their advice on Zeel PV programming. Of course, there are many here who have helped me with advice and good words, but the Zeel was a big variable for me.
The bike is still very fresh, but idles at a steady 1300, pulls clean from from the bottom. The mid-range is back. Strong from 5000 with a smooth, but noticeable surge at 7K and kept pulling to 11K. Once warm (60C), I stuck in in fourth gear, gave it full throttle at 2K. No hiccups only smooth power to 10K. It wheelied at 7K after WOT pull from 3K. Its never pulled the front wheel off the ground before this morning. To say I was happy with the results of the last 5 weeks work is an understatement.
Going to button it up this afternoon and run it to 12K.
Back to the exhaust system. I gotta believe that a properly sealed system is part of the performance boost. We all know how 2T's make power, Yes?
Good luck to you.
Steve
(-P), cheers Steve, yes i will just use sealant this time round and sack off the gasket, RTV on order, glad to hear your back on track, did you use the standard map for the zeel or have you tweaked it? I will go down the same route when my bank balance recovers.It seems you have released the power hidden in the engine wilth the programable ignition, nice one (-P)
Just a note on my pipes Bulldogboy, my flanges need the copper gasket as they are flat on that face. If you look at the cylinder, the outer face has a cut out at the bottom, which won't be sealed without the gasket in place.
The Japanese pipes have a raised section which fits into where the gasket sits, which does the sealing.
The sliding fit needs a decent amount of sealant in to help seal, and let it set before starting. And don't overtighten the flange nuts, it can distort them a little and make the flange bow. If you got them sealing ok with the sealant, then that's it.. job done.
Hope that helps clarify! They must be a few years old now, I've not made any 3XV pipes for a while..
Meanwhile.. all sounds good so far Steve! 8)
Bulldog. Thanks.
I just followed good advice. I took Phil M's suggestion and used the Zeel the way it came. The only programming was turning off the TPS and setting the PV's to open at 7000 and be fully open at 10,000 rpm. I set the rev limiter to 12.5K. These settings were recommended by Dan M.
Phil generously sent me a variety of programs that I have yet to try. The engine was under construction too long.
One thing I forgot, I unplugged the VAJ's, which means only the center jet is feeding the engine.
Remember, mine is a track bike, if you want to street ride my tuning might be OK, but don't copy anyone's settings. All these bikes are different enough, go slowly and start rich.
Back to it. Packing up tomorrow.
Steve
Thanks Martin. Yes. This thing has been unleashed. Great job on the three heads and two cylinders.
It really sings now.
Steve
Good to clarify my statements about your 3xv pipes for Bulldog.
Yes thanks alot for clarifying that martin,even in my ignorance i pretty much did do that, but i think i was a bit stingy on sealing the gap between the pipe and the flange collar.I was also worried about sealant squidging in the exhaust port, but i spose the copper gasket helps prevent that?Yes i spose they are a few years old now ,how come you stopped making the 3xv pipes?Steve , i will hopefully just upgrade ignition and pipes, will have to take advice on some good off the shelf pipes for max gains, if im only doing those 2 mods.Just want to make no2 "a bit quicker" Phils old bike ( no 1) Is the full fat version ;D will take advice from those more knowledgeable than me nearer the time, hope your good progress continues (-P)
I would fit the manifold, then if any excess is squidged inside, you can wipe it smooth, then put sealant on the end of the pipe and slide it in. Putting it on the pipe minimises how much gets pushed inwards. Should be fine..
Good tips Martin thank you ,will follow that method for sure (-P)
It's always something. Twisting safety wire, double checking the crucial torque setting, checking for leaks then finally buttoning up the faring.
Originally, intended for TZ style air boxes and open carbs, my faring has internal air channels routing air from those external scoops seen on almost all TZR's.
If you remember, I installed a heavy-duty radiator hose in place of a stock hose that had failed and caused an expensive "sacrifice at the alter of speed"*.
Well, the air channel wouldn't allow clearance of the hose. Take it apart, break out the Dremel, breath in some fiber glass and finish the job.
Barring some mystery sponsor discovering me this weekend, this will be my last Track Day of 2019.
Many thanks to all on this Forum who have helped. You're the best friends I've never meet.
Steve
*Warwick. Loved that quote. Had to use.
With today's Track Day at Putnam Park in Meridian, Indiana/USA, Project Phoenix has reached its logical conclusion. This all started due to a catastrophic engine failure on September 11, 2018.
The dream of "Project Phoenix" was to not only rebuild the 3xv1 engine to a much higher spec version of itself, but also to complete a "full, bolts-up" resurrection of the bike into a competitive track machine. That has been realized. The History of the "how" is all in this thread. The names of those who have helped, encouraged and supported this effort are clearly listed. I will always be grateful to you gentlemen.
All of us who are devoted to these unique machines won a major victory today on a track that does not exclusively favor precise-scalpel sharp handling. Putnam is a fairly fast track. We were able to be competitive with bikes making 3-4 times the HP and a wide assortment of "Intermediate", but highly skilled riders....most of whom knew this track far better than I did. That doesn't mean we could pass them, but running WITH this class of riders and bikes was the ultimate goal.
Based only on straight-line performance, the bigger bike were only passing, easily, at the end of the straight sections. Only my lack of confidence and specific track experience was the deciding factor. The bike was right. Making power from 5000-12.5K rpm meant I was no longer fighting the gear box, as was the case in Atlanta. With new tyres in the last two sessions, she was again precise and sharp, but now with an attitude. Stepping out a bit on the fastest sweepers.
This bike seams very sensitive to environmental conditions. We went from a cool morning to 31.6C/75% Humidity. A bit of adjustment on the idle setting and air screw kept things under control.
Finally, we stayed upright and on the track all day. Several in this class took a few off-road excursions. A 28 year old bike was running with modern computerized bikes.
Track Day riding is not racing. If it were, we finished almost last. But, do any of us really care? The point is our love for this bike, it engine's format and knowing we can actually reach in to have a contact with the soul of the machine is something few of the 4T Hyper-bike riders will ever understand.
I'm far from finished with this bike. But, Phoenix has Risen. Time for a new chapter.
Thanks
Steve
The picture shows what we saw when we first arrived. It passed with a 5 minute moment of cool breeze.
Glad you made it back in one piece, along with some peace of mind that you did what you meant to do (-P)
What organization did you have running the track day?
Thanks, Busa.
Hope I didn't overdo my attempt to wrap-up a story. But, a bit of euphoria and an adult beverage tend to open your feelings.
Today: "Midwest Track Days" managed by Jeffery Wheat. He personally balanced my tyres. They have one last event at the NCM in Bowling Green, mid-October.
We also have confidence in "Track Day Winners", run by John Cook. He let me borrow his personal GSXR-750 last September after the 3xv ate its crank and most of the upper end.
Mid-Ohio Calls their service a "school". But it's organized much as the two above, plus they offer lunch under their entry fees. The track is the most interesting of all, but needs a resurface. It's unridable in the rain or if at all wet.
MCRA only has track days at Gateway near St. Louis. Pretty cool running inside a NASCAR facility, but they're done for the year.
All great people. PM me for more specifics. They all have web and social media presence.
Finally, there was an RS 250 Aprilla Rider in the "Advanced Group" today. Great to have another 2T in the mix.
Enjoy your Sunday.
Steve
Great to hear things went well, Steve. Very well earned after all the hard work, I'd say!
Love the pic too - really atmospheric. 8)
Here's to more of the same. (-P)
Yeah, nice one! 8)
That cloud is a little scary, we don't get things like that over here..
Thanks, Guys.
It's called a "Shelf Cloud". Potentially the source of Tornadoes. It is very unusual for one to fly solo.
I could draw some symbolic significance to this event and the rest of the Track Day. This time, I'll just leave it alone.
Of course, a few new problems were discovered when riding the bike in anger, but I'll ask them in the 3xv forum.
Have a good Sunday.
Steve
I brought this back up because I found a new way for removing stuck swingarm pivot bolts. But this will only work on hollow bolts.
Take a tap and thread the open end and then get a long threaded bolt. Use some sockets big enough and deep enough. To pass the bolt through the center. Of course use a socket big enough to fit over the bolt and deep enough to get pulled into it.
Also big enough to press against the side of the frame. Use fender washers between the sockets or make a tube.
As you tighten the bolt against the washers into the threaded part of the axle. It will pull the bolt out into the socket.
Very creative, Rick. It seems a big socket, deep enough to be used as a puller would be good investment if we encounter a frozen swing-arm pivot shaft. In my situation, such a solution would also seem to require a breaker-bar. That sucker was STUCK.
Thanks for the update to my project.
Steve