Hi guys,
I meet Borut from Zeeltronic last week at my home. He owns a 3XV now too :D
We had a talk and Borut would be interested to get the ignition, power valve and power jet mapping out of a SUGO CDI. As I don't have one (I send him my -10 and -40 CDI for reference checks) I would like to ask if somebody would send him a SUGO box? If so pls. let me know I can arrange the contact (or if you already have contact just mail him directly).
Juergen
Juergen,
That sounds great! I'd be very interested in seeing that information! Sadly I can't help as I don't have a SUGO cdi. Plus there are lots of different SUGO cdi's which one does Borut require?
Cheers,
Dan
That would be quite awesome - the prices sugo cdi's are going for nowadays are pretty bad so an alternative would be cool. Maccas is right - there's 3 or 4 different sugo cdi's. Either way it would be great to have sugo cdi maps available off the shelf so to speak..
How would one go about extracting the map from a cdi? ?:-|
By the way it seems the SUGO cdi ignition maps are designed for use with AVGAS race fuel as they use quite alot of advance.
I went down the programmable route as that way you can tailor the ignition settings to work with whatever state of tune your engine is in. The ignition curve no longer becomes the limiting factor.
Dan
Even if you copied a sugo cdi and bolted it to a sugo kitted bike it wouldn't be the same. it would be better, because your spark is better.
And if you took a sugo kitted bike with a sugo copied zeel/igni cdi to a Dyno you would end up changing it.
What's the issue with most believing in a programmable cdi giving you the facility to optimise your state of tune, you need a few Dyno runs, tis all.
All zeel and igni need to do is make them more plug and play, then there wouldn't be this big issue.
I agree with you Paul, this would nice as it would give people a plug and play option and a reference point to start from (ie, a map that mr yamaha approves of ;). Then if you're so inclined you can adjust to suit the bike's state of tune. 8)
The thing is though that the SUGO curve is designed to work with all the kit parts as a whole. So for each part you are missing from the race kit, the further you are away from the ignition curve being optimum.
At a guess (going on other peoples experience) my bike would not work very well at all with a SUGO 70 or 80 box as my bike is running on 95 unleaded and a compression ratio of 8.3:1. In order for my bike to work the ignition advance has been lowered to suit the spec.
Dan
I have a -9A box available for use, but my -80 box is/will be in use on my 93 R/RS 3XV. I believe the -9A boxes are programmed to operate the later model SP's with the guillotine style PV's, while the -70, -80 boxes are for operating the drum style.
Now these are not damaged at all when the data is extracted right? ?:-| I need to sell this thing someday ;)
What do I get for loaning out my box...a free or discounted Zeel box? ::)
Quote from: maccas on March 25, 2013, 06:37:27 PM
The thing is though that the SUGO curve is designed to work with all the kit parts as a whole. So for each part you are missing from the race kit, the further you are away from the ignition curve being optimum.
At a guess (going on other peoples experience) my bike would not work very well at all with a SUGO 70 or 80 box as my bike is running on 95 unleaded and a compression ratio of 8.3:1. In order for my bike to work the ignition advance has been lowered to suit the spec.
Dan
my 3XV worked VERY well on a SUGO cdi @ Cadwell Park,running on super unleaded,with Martin77 pipes & porting,and 28mm carbs,not sure what the comp ratio was though,but it ran well enough to give Gecko Dan a bloody good run for his money.... ;D
I have a 75 box that i can help with , will he need a wire loom too ?
I was going to do the comparisons when i got my stuff sorted out . Let me know the details and i will help out for sure .
Hi guys,
thank's for the feedback. Some of the questions I can answer right here:
- the CDI will be of course not damaged (Borut knows what he is doing ;) )
- he already has a loom incl. TPS sensor and a PV (and the other stuff for the -10 and -40 CDI )
- of course the SUGO's are designed for the respective kits at that MY. At least we would get an idea what the mappings were for the specific kit setup (incl. the specified fuel)
- to get the data out of the CDI he simulates the pick up signal with a signal generator. With a oscilloscope he measures / calculates the advance for the ignition timing. The PV and VAJ / PJ can be easily detected / measured by position respective on / off function.
- the benefit / discount for everybody needs to be negotiated. I will not ask for any additonal discount loaning him my parts as I will also get a result out of it. I already had the plan to buy a Zeel for my 3XV too (I have already for my RZ one with some special features 8) )
@ JIM, Neal: if you would be willing to loan him the CDI would be perfect (at least we would get 1 set of data each for a "drum" and a "guillotine" PV type, is this correct for the -75?)
PM me how we can proceed, ok?
wbr
Juergen
PM sent Juergen. Not sure if the -75 boxes and -9A boxes are similar in PV controlling?
My cylinders are the same as the tz stlye guillotine type . I think the more info that he has available can paint a better picture for us to see what was going on with the different curves .
When i got my cdi , it had avgas written on it so i assume it is a avgas specific cdi .
If i can get a Zeel unit that has sugo curves in it , it will save me a lot of time . I can fine tune it on the dyno later .
Quote from: Paul on March 25, 2013, 06:25:10 PM
Even if you copied a sugo cdi and bolted it to a sugo kitted bike it wouldn't be the same. it would be better, because your spark is better.
And if you took a sugo kitted bike with a sugo copied zeel/igni cdi to a Dyno you would end up changing it.
What's the issue with most believing in a programmable cdi giving you the facility to optimise your state of tune, you need a few Dyno runs, tis all.
All zeel and igni need to do is make them more plug and play, then there wouldn't be this big issue.
I agree with the highlighted quote from Paul. It's the one thing that puts me off buying either of the prog. CDI's available.
If they would
both fit electrical connectors that were compatable with the stock loom connectors I'd buy one!
That way if it decided to start misbehaving for whatever reason I could just plug my stock CDI straight back in until the prog. one was repaired or replaced. It's not too much to ask for is it? :o :P
wullie the ignitech does have a loom kit you just plug it in ive got one !
i have moved my cdi to under the rear seat in the box its held down with industrial velcro
i can swap them over in 5 seconds !
here is a pic
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa411%2FCarver101%2F003_zps25d5ba6a.jpg&hash=54686bdfd012c820dd8e1f933dfa171620c7ef1a)
My loom kit was completely wrong and the smaller of the 2 was epoxied together. I had to cut...
Wullie, the problem is these cdi's are universal, designed to work on hundreds of bikes. It'll list a few in the information section but those are the ones they've got going on em. Possibilities are endless, those are the brave lads who make em fit an unlisted bike and you never hear about those ones.
I've said it before, there is plenty help on here, it's a couple hours of intimacy with your bike and a wiring diagram and you're ready to go.
Then you have the power to get in the unknown areas of what you've always accepted as a constant
And only been able to adjust with the flywheel advance, and its the PV operation that really transforms your bike. Like eeknows said years ago, it is the cheapest HP you can buy. I lifted my 3xv by 12 HP across the mid range in 3 runs on the Dyno, I did it myself, Neal was there, and it was easy.
Now Ed had an interesting trick I saw at the track, it was these clips that allow you to piggyback a wire or splice it with no visible damage. Very neat.
I saw it with my own eyes !
I picked up 4hp on my nsr on the top end but i need more time to tune the midrange .
My plans have always been to fit either unit to my 3xv and compare the graphs , something that i hope to do around June/July this year . Too many projects (life) going on at the same time :-\
and what a life it is
i'm off to Mocambique for 9 days
crayfish, LM prawns, peri-peri chicken, calamari, fresh dorado/tuna and 2M beer!
some fishing and snorkeling and good old fashioned 4x4 on the beach. yaahoo
ill miss my bike, cleaning and painting exhausts when i should be packing, 3am start tomorrow!
Just an update on this , I am back in civilisation ATM and have some parts to send :) , hopefully the data is useful to Borut .
Please post up some thoughts on the features required etc proper plug and play .
All borut has to do is buy himself a big box of connectors like IGNITECH have.
No one really wants to chop the wires of a 20 year old future collectors item.
That's why these race cdi's are so desirable.
Maybe he could be a bit more scientific with his manual. Explain curves required for avgas (that took me a few days to figure out without a dyno) unleaded etc. once you have that you'll never change it.
I have learned enough to know now that it is likely you plug in a sugo and your bike could go worse. Your compression ratio, measured from when your exhaust port is "closed", and including head volume ,you might have the right heads but porting is more radical. A 1mm higher ex port robs you of 24.6cm3 of mixture for being compressed. Similarly a lower port adds that extra mixture. That effects wher the plug must fire else it'll blow oil out the pipes.
If you're serious about setting your bike up correctly, forget about sugo cdi's its hit and miss.
Let me tell you what I've done for my TZ. I drive very far to ride it and can't take a chance on a 20 year old ignition. Nor will I pay 4 times the price of a new IGNITECH to buy a spare 20 year old cdi. I'm making sense?
So I bought a loom connector for $25. I requested every pin to have a wire coming out so I can add shift light or whatever later on. I also bought a cdi off them and I'll take my time to tune it in. Because this way it is plug and play. Same loom connector from them will work on a zeel.
There is 20 years of advancement in electronics in these boxes.
I think you guys miss the mark a little. Poor borut wants to sell these things but is having to please the masses by giving them value in a setting they believe is a good starting point but in reality is still a mile off the mark. If sugo had the tools to program like you do today they would have sold them with different maps for different fuels, tracks, heads, barrels, plugs.
You have to take a small risk to gain boys. Ask any prog cdi owner which cdi is on their bike right now, oem or prog? And if it was easy to swap them over (loom connector) which one would they use?
I don't agree with you fully Paul. Sure advances have been made in the last twenty years but the rest of the bikes components are still twenty years old, your port job, pipes etc. There seems to be a trend of 'I have to get a Zeel' or similar system to make the bike sing but in reality the bike is not ever going to get ridden anywhere hard enough to make a difference on the timesheet. I suggest saving the cash that you would spend on an ignition system, dyno and lost track time and spent it on track days learning how to ride the thing properly.
Not directed at you personally Paul just a general observation.
Quote from: epa police on May 22, 2013, 08:10:34 AM
I don't agree with you fully Paul. Sure advances have been made in the last twenty years but the rest of the bikes components are still twenty years old, your port job, pipes etc. There seems to be a trend of 'I have to get a Zeel' or similar system to make the bike sing but in reality the bike is not ever going to get ridden anywhere hard enough to make a difference on the timesheet. I suggest saving the cash that you would spend on an ignition system, dyno and lost track time and spent it on track days learning how to ride the thing properly.
Not directed at you personally Paul just a general observation.
Bring a bike up Pat and we'll go down to the dyno and I'll show you before and after an ignition.
Quote from: Paul on May 22, 2013, 07:14:38 AM
All borut has to do is buy himself a big box of connectors like IGNITECH have.
No one really wants to chop the wires of a 20 year old future collectors item.
Ignitech is a company , Zeeltronic is 1 bloke. Borut would love to have plug and play looms and funky graphics but that's not what he does. He makes ignitions, not looms or software.
I should show you how to cut and shut a loom so you will hard pressed to see. There is also no need to cut the loom you can run parralel wiring quite easy.
No problem pat. But what do you say to someone about to pay £400 for a 20 year old cdi?
Knowing the obvious benefits including cost savings of a prog.
Whatever the relative merits of the different options - and I think it's great that the progs are available - I'm not convinced that it necessarily works out more cost effective to go the prog route from what I've seen? And it certainly looks like quite a bit more work to me I have to say?
I'll doubtless have a go with one one day, but I don't expect it to be as simple - or as cheap - as just plugging in the Sugo.
As I see it any potential advantage of a prog unit lies in its flexibility and tuneability, not in the cost or ease of fitment - and especially set-up? As for reliability... Well I've never had, or heard of, a Sugo unit failing. Heard about lots of probs with both the Zeel and Ignitech units though. Many of which may well be operator error of course.
My plan all along has been to get another prog unit and use it on my bike , in a perfect world I would like the unit to plug in without cutting my loom , if I have to get a add on piece from ignitech then no problems .
I will get the bike running with the race kit on it , dyno it , swap over to the prog unit and dyno it straight away , just for experiments to please my curiosity . I will post up the details once it is done.
Ay Paul hush hush on the resale stories , I may need to sell my fools gold unit ;D
Warwick.
Less than 50% cost is not cost effective? Being able to tune your bike perfectly for it current setup or any changes thereafter doesn't add value?
You think it's a lot of work ordering a loom connector and joining 12 wires?
And as for the rest of your contribution. Sounds like you're trying to delay the enevitable with half convinced idleness. Maybe smooth out some good points mentioned already?
I'm saying its a good, cheap, performance gaining piece of kit. Your saying the same but its not cheap and it takes time?
My opinion is based on actually owning and using both ignitions.
Well, the last Sugo unit I bought cost £220. The one before that £180... I know of someone more recently who bagged one for £150... Are you saying that a prog and associated gubbins can be bought and set up for half of that? Dyno time alone is going to cost rather more than that I'd think? Once you add up all the other bits, the fittings and the dyno time, the costs seem to rack up quite significantly from what I've seen?
As I've mentioned a thousand times, I think the progs are great of course - especially for those that like to experiment. I have no vested interest in either system personally, and as mentioned will probably try a prog myself at some point. But the progs just don't seem to me to be a particularly cost effective, easy or reliable option from what I've seen?
I didn't know that you had a Sugo for the 3XV though, Paul? I must have missed your posts on that? How did it go? Your 3XV seemed a bit lazy with the prog fitted from the dyno you posted a while back? Did you compare it back to back with the Sugo?
Best of luck with it all as always, but the real irony here lies in the topic of this thread doesn't it? ;D
The point I was making Lozza was that you can have all the HP you want but its not worth a crap if you can't ride. I personally would send the cash on some tyres and spend the time tuning my suspension instead of programming the map to open the PVs 10rpm earlier because suspension is where the real time is to be found.
I'm pretty sure it won't be a case of just fitting an ignition and going on the dyno and hey presto an extra 10hp but I am pretty sure some guys would believe a statement like that and buy a system.
I'll give my two cents...
No OEM ignition is going to be correct for your specific application unless your specific application is that which the OEM ignition was designed for. An example of this would be that the SUGO ignition is designed to be used in conjunction with the COMPLETE RACE KIT. This doesn't mean that good results can't be obtained from an OEM ignition. People have and do get good results from OEM boxes. A SUGO ignition with appropriate set-up is a known route to decent power with a 3xv. Take Mark Jordan and the KR1S for instance, he has stuck with the stock ignition and made a monster of a motor work around that.
I can see the appeal of using a fixed curve box. Less time needed on the dyno, cheaper set up costs, less variables to change. I've nothing against them at all.
I like the programmable ignitions. They do as Warwick mentions cost alot to set up though as you do have to spend a fair bit of time on the dyno dialling them in. Each time you change a component such as a different design of exhaust, ideally you need to go back to the dyno to get the PV and ignition curves dialled in again. Otherwise you aren't getting the full potential of the programmable.
Personally I like seeing what happens on the dyno and what does what, I find it interesting. A programmable is right up my street and that's why I stuck at it with the 3xv when the wiring issue hadn't been sorted.
If you have the time/money/inclination to go to the dyno everytime you make a major set-up change then a programmable is for you.
If not, stick with an OEM box.
That's my simplified view anyway O0
Dan
Quote from: epa police on May 22, 2013, 12:21:05 PMI'm pretty sure it won't be a case of just fitting an ignition and going on the dyno and hey presto an extra 10hp but I am pretty sure some guys would believe a statement like that and buy a system.
I did the above and got 5 more hp everywhere from 6000rpm up on my RD350LC, On my 3XV only gained 3 hp at the top, but gained 8 in some parts of the rev range...
Ok , for me , I wanted to help the TZR community by sending Borut my cdi at my cost to help EVERYONE when he reads the map and has a base map available for us .
Like many have said before , I like the tuning part of developing a bike and most of the time I don't keep track of the cost's as I would probably cry at the money I have spent .
I am going to fit a prog unit but not sure if I must bother sending my cdi (at my RISC) as it sounds as though the info/curve it produces is not needed .
Can we talk about sending a unit or not and what you want from the new unit ?
@Neal: my idea starting this topic was to get the data out of the (if possible different) SUGO units. That includes the ignition map, the PV curve and the PJ opening / closing. Having that for the (different) SUGO boxes, Borut would supply this data with his CDI and everybody can choose which one would be the right for his specific setup (at least as a starting point).
For the guys (like me ;D ) who like to get the full gain out of such a prog. system they can spent (and pay) the time on a dyno. For all others they can get the same performance out of the engine than with a SUGO... And having that data and not needing to use a day on the dyno the prog. route can be on the same cost level than the SUGO's (depending how the prices for the rare getting boxes is developing ;) ) or even lower.
Personally I don't have any trouble with cutting my loom or fit any connector type into it....
At least that was my idea behind the story.
I also think that having the different sugo maps available would be very handy. Once you have the map then the formula to get good power is almost constant, ie: SP porting and pipes. Tweaking to suit your specific engine from a known base ignition curve would be easier than starting from scratch.. 8)
@Juergen , I have emailed Borut , he replied and was concerned about import taxes etc as I am out of the EU . Hopefully the taxes won't apply as the unit will be sent for "testing" and be returned to me .
I will wait to hear from Borut and progress from there .
Hopefully with the different curves available and the unit is proper plug and play it will save us time , frustrations and money with a good base to start with .
My progress will be slow as work is out of town for me . In the mean time I can buy fancy parts and build up my collection .
I would be keen to see the various sugo cdi ignition curves. Sadly I am not in a position where I am able to help with this otherwise I would.
Just remember that the sugo curves are designed for use with the respective race kit for that year of 3xv. Also remember the type of fuel/combustion chamber volume that the sugo ignition is designed for too.
Dan
Update - I will send Borut my 75 Cdi in a few months time . He was concerned that he would not be able to finish reading mine before I need it back . I will update as soon as I have more info .
I too emailed Borut to offer up the use of my 3XV-9A box. But me being the US was a concern for him...shipping wise. He has my contact info and if he changes his mind and wants or needs the data out of my box, I'm sure we can work something out. 8)
[Well, the last Sugo unit I bought cost £220. The one before that £180... I know of someone more recently who bagged one for £150...
Warwick, you know i'm screaming out for one!!!!!!! ( got to keep those pesky rgv's behind me somehow!) ;D
Matey did get a bit of a bargain, but if you keep your eyes open they pop up reasonably regularly really. There was this one a little while back on these very pages: http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=344.0
Or just grab an Ignitech or Zeel? Little bit more work, but a prog potentially has real advantages over a Sugo too of course.
Which one do you need Ian? Gecko Racing may have it, and it will only cost you one arm, one leg, and your first born! ;) He's got lots of neat shit!
Neal, you won't need to worry about import tax over here . Just keep the value under $1000 to avoid the GST and your sweet
Man, I love to see you bitches squealing over something as somple as a spark ;D ;D
Me?'m afraid I have little time as it is for setting bikes up and can't afford the extra time that a programmable unit will incur. (at this point in time)
Like Warwick I may think about one at some point, but as Pat says I've got a long way to go before I need one performance wise !
BTW - I'm also shunning the Iphone 5 ;) ;D
Gecko Racing does indeed have lots of neat shit!! but at the prices he's asking? i'd rather keep my arms and legs thankyou!
i mean c'mon,£400 for a 20 yr old cdi box? :o :o
Quote from: Kingy38 on May 24, 2013, 08:52:50 AM
Gecko Racing does indeed have lots of neat shit!! but at the prices he's asking? i'd rather keep my arms and legs thankyou!
I would agree his prices are uber high but that's the service he provides. If you can be bothered to do the Yahoo Japan thing and then get it imported, with the time it takes, then you can get it for half the price or less. With Dan you could (probably) have it tomorrow but you are going to pay the premium.
I am lazy, skint and in no rush so I'm not a customer. If I was lazy, minted and wanted toys 'now!' it would be a whole different kettle of fish. The difference is probably just a lottery win away. I'm happy to test it out if anyone has £50K to bung my way for the research project; please PM me if you can help.
I did the yahoo auction route , waited months for a 75 unit to come up and in the end it cost me about the same as 400 quid .
You guys do seem to get clobbered........I think I paid $300 for my 9A unit. The previous -70 was about the same from memory. A 4DP one can be had much cheaper if its going to be used on the track its well worth the consideration.
Hey, Jools. While dissing those 'bitches' you seem to have forgotten that you came pretty close to laying down £650 for a 'kit' 71 box all those years ago... :o. Just sayin'... ;) ;D O:-).
you seem to have a better memory than me................you sure that was me?
I remember a bit of banter about the -71 between you and another member on the old old forum.
But I couldn't see me paying 650 quid for one of those :o (the small % of jock in my blood ;) )
Pretty sure I remember answering some PMs about it? Asking if I thought it was legit etc...? I have aged significantly since then of course and am even slacker of mind nowadays, so lets say it must have been someone else...;D.
As an aside, I think the box in question is still in the shop in fact if anyone's looking for a 71...
carefull - you might start the topic off again ;D ;D
;D
Quote from: Warwick on May 22, 2013, 11:28:29 AM
Well, the last Sugo unit I bought cost £220. The one before that £180... I know of someone more recently who bagged one for £150... Are you saying that a prog and associated gubbins can be bought and set up for half of that? Dyno time alone is going to cost rather more than that I'd think? Once you add up all the other bits, the fittings and the dyno time, the costs seem to rack up quite significantly from what I've seen?
As I've mentioned a thousand times, I think the progs are great of course - especially for those that like to experiment. I have no vested interest in either system personally, and as mentioned will probably try a prog myself at some point. But the progs just don't seem to me to be a particularly cost effective, easy or reliable option from what I've seen?
I didn't know that you had a Sugo for the 3XV though, Paul? I must have missed your posts on that? How did it go? Your 3XV seemed a bit lazy with the prog fitted from the dyno you posted a while back? Did you compare it back to back with the Sugo?
Best of luck with it all as always, but the real irony here lies in the topic of this thread doesn't it? ;D
No. No sugo. Both zeel and IGNITECH.
Updated my TZ page, the loom connector worked a treat. http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=269.msg9218#msg9218
I am stoked.
I have a strobe light that offsets for degrees so its a quick tdc and strobe, flat 15 curve and set the strobe to 15. The tdc marks should line up. I will use these same marks on a dyno to check for offset differences between cyls under load. Check PV cycles and PJ's.
Then, I will run a back to back. None of my wiring so far on other bikes has allowed me to do this
I'm just curious Paul........
If you havn't compared it to the the Sugo box how do you know it is that much better?
especially with all the extra tinkering required, carbs, static adjustment etc.
What is to say the stock ignition would not have benefit from this amount of attention ?
Hi jools
Dan has said it already. So have I. Unless you are running exact kit parts and setup it is hit and miss with sugo. A slight difference in compression or back pressure will throw out your timing. Also fuels have changed since the 90's.
So why deny yourself that ability to work around changes.
Added to that you get a stronger spark. My guess is if borut could copy a sugo and you compared it back to back on a sugo bike you would see 3-4 extra HP and that is through efficiency alone.
I don't work for these guys who make igns. To me it is the best kept secret. It is not for everyone I realise. But I will keep trying to help guys that give it a go.
Are you considering it jools?
Dyno time is for optimising the ignition and PV curves, something that is impossible with standard ignitions. The fine tuning is what makes the difference(along with the spark energy) over standard ignitions. If they were not worthwhile they would have disappeared a long time ago.
Programmed stock curves in many times and seen gains, again the power valve curve is what makes the difference.
That is correct but that goes for any system you change on a bike for performance gains - not just the ignition.
And I have to disagree to a certain point - my first 3XV had TZ pipes SP std carbs (no Sugo internals), -70 Sugo ignition and Powerflow porting and still put out 63HP at the back wheel.
Its not what you use but how you make it work together - optimising.
True, with the flexibility in adjustment of a modern ignition outputs have to improve but its like comparing apples & oranges init ?
Not the same Jools, you can't optimise a pipe on the dyno only swap it for another, ditto any other component. The igintion is the best way to tie any set up together.
yes true Lozza, but if your carburation is up the shitta it isn't going to help.
One main jet size can make a hell of a difference, ditto Nozzles and Needles.
Ja. And if you amputate your right hand the bike won't go well either.
Quote from: jools on May 30, 2013, 10:01:04 AM
One main jet size can make a hell of a difference, ditto Nozzles and Needles.
Amen.
Nozzles and Needles, more, then one size main jet imo.
With that said programable ignitions, like eeknows says are an exellent way to squeeze a bit more performance, or achive that engine behaviour your looking for. Jetting can do that too, to a certain degree. It just takes many many hours testing and understanding what´s doing what.
Quote from: jools on May 30, 2013, 10:01:04 AM
yes true Lozza, but if your carburation is up the shitta it isn't going to help.
One main jet size can make a hell of a difference, ditto Nozzles and Needles.
Carburation makes a difference to the what it's like to ride, but not that much to the output, unless your talking single cylinder 125's and smaller.
you are kidding of course...............
Not really, I have seen a few times on the dyno that changing one jet size on the mains resulted a 5 hp change.
So as shown in my project post I have build up my own CDI tester. Can somebody loan my a -80 CDI to get the data out of it?
cheers
Juergen
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi643.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu160%2F41juergen%2FTZR%2520250%2520R%25203XV%2FWP_20150403_004_zpsfzhlbkh4.jpg&hash=26ef6c0ecd0d6e9ec2dd4a83cbf98360d1d6e3bf) (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/WP_20150403_004_zpsfzhlbkh4.jpg.html)
I am willing to lend Borut my 9A cdi
From what I know is that Borut is doing some special development for some companys, so don't has much time at the moment. Thats the reason I try to help him out with the testing...
Anybody who will loan me a -80 CDI?
Quote from: 41juergen on April 09, 2015, 08:59:41 PM
From what I know is that Borut is doing some special development for some companys, so don't has much time at the moment. Thats the reason I try to help him out with the testing...
Anybody who will loan me a -80 CDI?
I can borrow you my 9a but if it breaks you have to replace it ....
The timing will be close but the powervalve timing will not be the same as a 80
I would really like to test a 4dp cdi
BUT it means very little as putting that info into a programable cdi doesn't mean it's exactly replicated. I honestly believe that.
There are pulse differences and differences in how the units behave relative to voltage. Other chaps could verify this in better. Where 26 deg on a oem cdi is 26 it could be 31 on a prog. And this will vary.
The best way to replicate a oem cdi is to run the bike on a dyno and tune the prog cdi to what the bike responds well to. It really IS NOT rocket science and there are no great mysteries and hidden secrets to make a bike run well and better than an oem CDI.
The only thing the japs were adding to those boxes were little tricks with air jets and TPS and 3D mapping to get their bikes past emissions testing to be sold in theirs and other peoples countries. Who really wants all that?
so you want to replicate a "80" sugo box. Take your best sugo "replicated" bike and reverse engineer the settings by doing dyno runs. Else I really don't believe you're going to get the same results as cut n pasting them off an oscillator or whatever.
Sorry boys.
There's an 80 on yahoo at the moment...
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/191000930
Quote from: Paul on April 09, 2015, 09:53:39 PM
so you want to replicate a "80" sugo box. Take your best sugo "replicated" bike and reverse engineer the settings by doing dyno runs.
i mean reverse engineer the settings onto a prog cdi thats plugged into the bike.
i add to that fuel plays a part, even pump gas. and in the early '90's they were running avgas leaded 101. i reckon the 80 CDI was made for avgas. which means more advance than unleaded.
also your head volumes
using a sugo box on a bike that is not an exact sugo kit bike is shooting in the dark. it'll cost you less to fit a zeel and nip down the dyno and set it up for the way your bike is tuned.
but having said all that, if someone sells "exact" copies of sugo boxes loaded onto zeel's, they'll sell a bucket full.
If you do not have money for dyno time and can only afford a zeel ....
And having a sugo point to start from must be less dyno time
I can only see money saved
Quote from: Yuri on April 10, 2015, 09:51:19 AM
If you do not have money for dyno time and can only afford a zeel ....
And having a sugo point to start from must be less dyno time
I can only see money saved
and that's why they will sell, you have missed my points there yuri
1. you cant copy and paste to replicate as there are variations is how the units work relative to voltage and spark strength
2. it is not going to be ideal anyway as we use different fuels today and sugo cdi's were only designed for sugo machines
The one SPR cdi is a unleaded cdi
@ Yuri and Paul: you are right, the SUGO is designed (only) for a complete kit incl. AVGAS. I don't want to use the data for setting up my bike as I will go with unleaded 100 ROZ and a different harware setup. But I would like to get the data into my EngMod simulation to learn more how close the simulation and dyno reality can be.
I made first tests for a 3XV5 with stock ignition, carbs incl. rubber restriction but a Jackal exhausts and the result is already very close to what the Yamaha data sheet showed.
So Yuri would you loan me your unit, of course I will send you a other one if I would damage yours (what I definitifly will not do!!!! ;D)?
cheers
Juergen
Ok send me your address
If you can get Carl to send you his unleaded spr that map will be interesting
So Carl, interested? Would you loan me the SPR SUGO CDI for testing (I have also an SPR loom, so can plug in easy...)?
cheers
Juergen
You can ask him
http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=2
His cdi is at my house but I will only send it if he agrees to it
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Koel. So many guys think plugging in a sugo box is the answer to derestricting.
it is lol!
It is funny how Mark got this with a SUGO box
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F168E4594-3991-49EC-9DBF-9A2C609C2D90.jpg&hash=063c77e7fde9466847a60e9ddc886b91137348f6) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/168E4594-3991-49EC-9DBF-9A2C609C2D90.jpg.html)
@Paul: you are absolute right, a SUGO box is IMO only for AVGAS with the whole kit. I will work out my own data with the Zeel, but for reverse engineering it is helpful for the simulations... ;)
Juergen
Not all the sugo boxes where made for avgas
The 3xv-75 spr box is made for avgas
The 3xv-7k spr box is made for unleaded
That is the reason there is 2 sugo boxes for the spr
Juergen, I assume the reasoning is to have a usable map for either an ignitech or zeel? Have you been able to reliably extract a map from your existing CDI?
If so then Yuri can send both CDI's, would be interesting if we can get easily comparable maps.. (Same as Yuri though, if it breaks then you'll need to replace)
@Yuri: sorry my mistake: of course I ment only the SP versions.... ::)
@Carl: yes I have checked my -10 and -40 CDI and will post as soon I have the data put together in a excel file... :D
And of course I will replace if I damage it ;D
If you want I also have a 3xv00 restricted box I can send you
What country are you in Juergen?
I would really like to put the 4DP cdi on your machine
What data are you able to extract?
I would be prepared to do dyno runs and supply final Zeel data for use on a standard TZ to match oem cdi.
I use the http://www.ignitech.cz/zdroj/exe/dccdip2_race.exe program to plot curve data to give a visual
It cuts me borut has not added this simple and useful tool to his software
Paul are there unleaded cdi boxes for the 4dp ?
I forgot I can also send you a clock derestricting box to test what it is doing
Quote from: Yuri on April 12, 2015, 01:48:39 PM
Paul are there unleaded cdi boxes for the 4dp ?
Yes it's called a 4TW box ;)
I have a 75 cdi but can only commit to send it after the season :-[
Quote from: Yuri on April 12, 2015, 01:48:39 PM
Paul are there unleaded cdi boxes for the 4dp ?
I forgot I can also send you a clock derestricting box to test what it is doing
4DP-10 is leaded Avgas but after that I am not sure. 4TW is definitely unleaded
What box is this ?
I would be interested to compare settings I have put in versus what the data capture tells us. That would cut out most my concerns.
It is just I think a m-max box
I'm from Germany close to Frankfurt am Main.
I would not need any de-restriction box (like the Posh box, m-max box, etc.) as I'm using the OEM clocks in the loom. With that I already tested the -10 and -40 box. You need to follow a procedure (similar like what happens when you start the engine in the bike) and than need to make sure that the speedometer is set to approx. 60 km/h before reving up. If you don't follow that procedure you can see the engine rev limited at 11500 rpm.
I got the data for the igintion mapping, PV and air solenoids with using the TPS. I think its also possible to take the data out of the 4DP / 4TW boxes (from what I believe the 4TW was the switch from leaded to unleaded) of course with the PJ instead of the air solenoids. The only question mark will be: what is the reference ignition timing e.g. at any specific rpm, for the 3XV I have 21° BTDC at 1300 rpm.
@Yuri: a -00 box would be also fine to compare to the -40 box
@ Neal: don't worry after the season is pre the season, so whenever it fit's for you.... ;)
Quote from: 41juergen on April 12, 2015, 05:35:02 PM
I think its also possible to take the data out of the 4DP / 4TW boxes (from what I believe the 4TW was the switch from leaded to unleaded) of course with the PJ instead of the air solenoids. The only question mark will be: what is the reference ignition timing e.g. at any specific rpm, for the 3XV I have 21° BTDC at 1300 rpm.
4DP is also 21, or that's what it measures out to with a timing light for the ignitech.
Let me know if you want me to do anything.
So that means I can also do the 4DP / 4TW's if somebody would send the box...
Here is the first file, its the data from the 3XV-10 CDI. As Louis has shown for the 3MA also the 3XV CDI doesn't do a interpolation between values but "jumps" from 1 line to the next one. So the ignition and PV is not a "real" map between the throttle positions but ignition / PV data for a range of TPS. The air solenoids are operating simultaniously, means air solenoid #1 and #2 open and close at the same time (for the -40 CDI it is different, every cylinder has its own mapping...).
Nice
It must be extremely restricted sp porting and 36mm carbs at 45hp
That's amazing
What's the raw data look like?
Quote from: 41juergen on April 12, 2015, 06:48:45 PM
So that means I can also do the 4DP / 4TW's if somebody would send the box...
I don't have a spare box for you right now.
May be the trick are the "restriction" blades in the air box rubber. I made a simulation with the restriction blades and without, see the data (with the Jackal pipes as I don't have the correct exhaust pipe data of the 3XV-5 bike). The data cover the SP engine spec incl. cylinder, head and crankcase geometry as well as the 36mm carbs and the shown stock ignition and PV data.
The curve shows the HP (black and green line) and torque (red and blue line) at the crank for 1 cylinder. So take it 2 times minus approx. 12% loss for the gearbox, chain and tire than you are at rwhp.
@Paul: sorry don't get you, what do you mean with "raw data look like"? :o
I'm just curious as to how you capture data from the equipment and what the data looks like.
This looks like a really interesting project Jeurgen! I don't currently have an -80 box but have a -70 box I could send over for examination. But as we are coming to the summer we'd need to arrange a fairly quick turnaround so that it's not away for too long. How long do you need them for to read them?
@Paul: I just setup the whole loom with all sensors and the CDI connected. Than I ramp up the revs of the electro motor and have a stroboscope lobe to flash the degree wheel which is mounted in front of the rotor. I also have a data logger connected to show the exact revs, TPS and PV position. Than I ran through the rev steps with changing the TPS from 0 - 100%.
@Warwick: I would beed may be 2 days to do the testing (depending on the other work at home defined by my Mrs... ;D)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi643.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu160%2F41juergen%2FTZR%2520250%2520R%25203XV%2FWP_20150403_003_zpshizihcdc.jpg&hash=fe79f1ee3a49ab110f66adfa54146ea75e3be65a) (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/WP_20150403_003_zpshizihcdc.jpg.html)
CDI's have been send !
Really interesting data from the 3xv-10 cdi juergen! I had no idea that the TPS had an effect on the PV curve. Those clever Japanese!
I'm impressed to say the least, well done.
Dan
Quote from: 41juergen on April 13, 2015, 07:31:35 AM
@Paul: I just setup the whole loom with all sensors and the CDI connected. Than I ramp up the revs of the electro motor and have a stroboscope lobe to flash the degree wheel which is mounted in front of the rotor. I also have a data logger connected to show the exact revs, TPS and PV position. Than I ran through the rev steps with changing the TPS from 0 - 100%.
That's so bloody clever!!!!
It's called Vorsprung Deutsch technik !
So much for 20 year old pieces of crap.............. ;D
We have an electronics genius in our midst :-)
Really nice data Juergen...! 8)
Now, can't understand what is going on my SP.. I use TPS fixed to the MAX advance ... :)
The elctronic genius here of course are Oliver and Louis, not me... ;D I'm a mechanical engineer who tries to understand a bit more.
@Neal: you might be right, my boss is telling me several times not to do the "German over engineering" :D
So I'm preparing the -40 data into the excel which takes a lot more time as the air solenoids are switched on / off like crazy. Will post soon...
The cdis are getting close
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FB515F2DD-F94B-4EDE-BB63-BA9A24C0F98F.png&hash=d1b20a661ccee452cf084ff1d68f4aba2a74bdd2) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B515F2DD-F94B-4EDE-BB63-BA9A24C0F98F.png.html)
Good news Yuri, looks like I will be back already on Thursday evening... so let's see!
If you need i can send you a 9A cdi just let me know
The cdis have arrived !
So made the first tests with the -00 and -9A CDI from Yuri. I also reviewed a bit the -10 and -40 data I made some time ago. So here it is... Of course the readings on the degree whell have some inaccuracy, but I let the data as shown. To put them in a programable CDI one have to smooth them out a bit. Will do the -7K next. Challenging are the air solenoid data. At the -00 the jap engineers kept it simple, but for the -40 the guys went nuts... ;D
Nice this is really interesting !
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0CE811D9-DBE7-4682-8237-799B51B8DA7D.png&hash=3839ecfff847d6ee0f099acf26e874eb4593e833) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0CE811D9-DBE7-4682-8237-799B51B8DA7D.png.html)
Well done and such nicely presented data!!
That 9A is Avgas. Surely.
Quote from: Paul on May 11, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Well done and such nicely presented data!!
That 9A is Avgas. Surely.
Yes but to make it work the heads must still be cut =
How to process/built-in the cylinder for SS race (94 model)
1) To process Head cylinder
First of all, measure the capacity of combustion chamber. (Spark plug should be NGK BR9ECM)
Then sharpen the face matching to the cylinder until it's 9.5cc capacity of combustion chamber.
When do this, adjust a speed of cutter to make the surface as smooth as it is original, otherwise it could cause a leak of gas/water.
The smallest combustion capacity should be 9.3 otherwise the upper wouldn't grow.
For instance, to sharpen 0.1mm can make 0.25 less in combustion capacity with NGK BR9ECM.
Use the spark plug NGK BR9ECM only for measuring the combustion capacity, not for racing.
(The letters next to the drawing: Shave off this part)
2) To process cylinder
About the extra exhaust port
Make the port width wider as if it's parallel shift. (A part)
Make the pointy part that is caused from processing smooth. (B part)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FF948A845-C003-42AD-9C12-E28586DEBBB3.png&hash=e797c791952c7c095214e2aa39b7ba3215f08786) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F948A845-C003-42AD-9C12-E28586DEBBB3.png.html)
I think this is the reason thy do so well on unleaded
Nice one Juergen! Interesting to see how much more advance the sugo has vs the other stock cdi's! Pretty much what we expected but now with actual vales makes it very useful. Would be interesting to see the 7K advance values compared to the 9A, seeing that the 7K is for unleaded. :) 8)
Thank's to Yuri, he was so kind to send the CDI's... ;D
And here are the data of the 7K, looks like the Yam engineers tried to put a little more heat into the pipes...
It can be that the heads are not cut in the sugo manual of the spr so it can use more advance
I will like to see neel's leaded cdi map
Fantastic stuff!!
Dan
I do not know why but it is not showing the compleat grath
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F8B11423C-78A3-4BF2-801C-68663A002FA9.png&hash=153107b0f32cc4ff455b3dc3432cd96273a78fa9) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/8B11423C-78A3-4BF2-801C-68663A002FA9.png.html)
now how close is this?
im ashamed to say i have tried to add it but my xls skills are crap
this would settle quite a lot of debates or at least give people the confidence to use a prog instead of a 25 year old black box
what would be really interesting is comparing a duplicated sugo with a prog and comparing dyno readouts, my bet is you would have better power copying a sugo than using one, then of course you could fine tune it and get an even more suited ign map and PV map
The info is very nicely put together Jurgen! 8) Interesting, so the 7K has slightly less advance on average, probably to compensate for the unleaded ?
So anybody else want to send their sugo CDI's to Jurgen so we can get a complete set? ;D
Yuri, my graph is displaying OK on the desktop excel, you're on mobile excel?.
Quote from: ybk on May 14, 2015, 07:54:19 AM
The info is very nicely put together Jurgen! 8) Interesting, so the 7K has slightly less advance on average, probably to compensate for the unleaded ?
So anybody else want to send their sugo CDI's to Jurgen so we can get a complete set? ;D
Yuri, my graph is displaying OK on the desktop excel, you're on mobile excel?.
Yes I will update my app
Quote from: Warwick on April 12, 2015, 10:50:25 PM
This looks like a really interesting project Jeurgen! I don't currently have an -80 box but have a -70 box I could send over for examination. But as we are coming to the summer we'd need to arrange a fairly quick turnaround so that it's not away for too long. How long do you need them for to read them?
Are you going to send your box ?
Interesting also how the power valves open later and more abruptly on the sugo's than on the other CDI's. Could be a sugo thing or just that all the other CDI's are for barrel type and not guilotine..
Ja Karl. The guillotine only really does anything when it's closed or open. No benefit for "rolling" it on. I tried on the dyno and it made bugger all difference to the power curve.
Guys , I'll have my 75 unit available very shortly . My nsr is "ready" for the next race meeting .
I am very keen to see what the curve looks like as I have a ignitech that will be used , if I can't work it out I'll get a zeel .
There goes my resale value of my sugo box ::)
Quote from: Neal on May 14, 2015, 12:20:26 PM
Guys , I'll have my 75 unit available very shortly . My nsr is "ready" for the next race meeting .
I am very keen to see what the curve looks like as I have a ignitech that will be used , if I can't work it out I'll get a zeel .
There goes my resale value of my sugo box ::)
A zeel cost more than a Sugo CDI
Quote from: Yuri on May 14, 2015, 09:33:43 AM
Quote from: Warwick on April 12, 2015, 10:50:25 PM
This looks like a really interesting project Jeurgen! I don't currently have an -80 box but have a -70 box I could send over for examination. But as we are coming to the summer we'd need to arrange a fairly quick turnaround so that it's not away for too long. How long do you need them for to read them?
Are you going to send your box ?
I have a spare -70/-80 box I can send if you you need one to test/compare. Can't remember which, but I think they are both pretty much the same.
Like Warwick, I'd like to get it back fairly quickly. I have a local mate that (I hope) wants to buy it for his bike.
Quote from: jcsnook on May 14, 2015, 02:24:14 PM
Quote from: Yuri on May 14, 2015, 09:33:43 AM
Quote from: Warwick on April 12, 2015, 10:50:25 PM
This looks like a really interesting project Jeurgen! I don't currently have an -80 box but have a -70 box I could send over for examination. But as we are coming to the summer we'd need to arrange a fairly quick turnaround so that it's not away for too long. How long do you need them for to read them?
Are you going to send your box ?
I have a spare -70/-80 box I can send if you you need one to test/compare. Can't remember which, but I think they are both pretty much the same.
Like Warwick, I'd like to get it back fairly quickly. I have a local mate that (I hope) wants to buy it for his bike.
It will be nice to see every CDI mapped !
A drum type sugo cdi would be nice to compare to the ones done so far!
OK...can you PM me shipping info?
I have send you Juergen's shipping address
Quote from: Yuri on May 14, 2015, 01:36:26 PM
Quote from: Neal on May 14, 2015, 12:20:26 PM
Guys , I'll have my 75 unit available very shortly . My nsr is "ready" for the next race meeting .
I am very keen to see what the curve looks like as I have a ignitech that will be used , if I can't work it out I'll get a zeel .
There goes my resale value of my sugo box ::)
A zeel cost more than a Sugo CDI
Can't be more than the $500 purchase price plus shipping , agents fees and import fees !
Quote from: Neal on May 14, 2015, 03:42:29 PM
Quote from: Yuri on May 14, 2015, 01:36:26 PM
Quote from: Neal on May 14, 2015, 12:20:26 PM
Guys , I'll have my 75 unit available very shortly . My nsr is "ready" for the next race meeting .
I am very keen to see what the curve looks like as I have a ignitech that will be used , if I can't work it out I'll get a zeel .
There goes my resale value of my sugo box ::)
A zeel cost more than a Sugo CDI
Can't be more than the $500 purchase price plus shipping , agents fees and import fees !
£250 with out shipping if you are not in the EU
http://www.thetuningworks.co.uk/store/product_info.php?products_id=865
€302,48 [IvaInc]
http://www.motoracingshop.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=60&products_id=1864 (http://www.motoracingshop.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=60&products_id=1864)
Buy direct from Borut for about £230 i think?
Dan
OK, being back from a short holiday trip. So if someone else qould send me a CDI I can test it.
@Warwick: may be after the season? ;D
cheers
Juergen
Great data that you are providing Jeurgen 8). I can send you a -70 in October, though I'd imagine the ignition curve will be pretty similar to the -75. Are you able to read the PV opening curves too? That will differ a bit I expect.
Sounds good, and yes also PV curves are shown in my excel file.... :D See the difference between the spool and the blades type.
Quote from: 41juergen on May 18, 2015, 09:59:53 AM
Sounds good, and yes also PV curves are shown in my excel file.... :D See the difference between the spool and the blades type.
Yes, I see it now. Great stuff! Sorry, I've been busy with other things and not following the thread closely so missed the PV data.
I'll try and get my spare -70/-80 box in the mail to juergen soon so Warwick does not have to take his bike down. Sorry I've been busy doing other things as well.
This is getting more and more interesting :)
Quote from: jcsnook on May 21, 2015, 02:11:39 PM
I'll try and get my spare -70/-80 box in the mail to juergen soon so Warwick does not have to take his bike down. Sorry I've been busy doing other things as well.
It'd be great if you could send yours in the meantime Jim. The earliest I'd want mine to be away from the bike would be Late October. I'd think the -70 and -80 are very close in terms of ignition mapping, and probably not that much different to the -9A and -75 really. I'd imagine it's primarily the PV opening that will differ between the 70/80 and the later boxes. It'd be great to see the full set of maps though of course.
A big pat on the back for Jeurgen for setting up the 'reader' I say! :)
Not a big issue, I have some friends in the company beeing also crazy about technical things like I am, so they helped me a lot to setup the tester.... ;D
@ Jim: the tester is there, when ever you can make it with the units, it takes only a day or two to get the data out of it.
Ok Juergen...I promise to get to it. I've been busy with my Gamma...
Hi Guys;
What I see in the data when you compare the ignition curves with the pv curves, it is a direct correlation between advance on ignition curve and speed at which the pv opens. As most of the guys know my 3ma has a lean or dead spell if you back of the throttle and get back on the throttle the bike is dead any where above 8500 rpm. I have determined that this is directly linked to my PV curve. Because I am running such an advance curve the pv cannot keep up. My pv setting influences the bike a great deal. It even has an influence on the jetting by that I mean if I run the 3xv00 PV curve in my 3ma it is so rich at 7000 rpm I dont get through it under load but reving the bike it revs through. The type of pv is also important the blade type requires less travel to open a greater distance than the drum type and that might be the reason.
This in my view is why they changed the PV maps so drastically, what you use to get from the PV map you now get from advanced curve and the pv gives you the nice kick in the ass at 9000 rpm.
Edd
Hi 41juergen if you dont have a -80 CDI send me your address and I will post mine to you.
Quote from: Edd on May 27, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
Hi Guys;
What I see in the data when you compare the ignition curves with the pv curves, it is a direct correlation between advance on ignition curve and speed at which the pv opens. As most of the guys know my 3ma has a lean or dead spell if you back of the throttle and get back on the throttle the bike is dead any where above 8500 rpm. I have determined that this is directly linked to my PV curve. Because I am running such an advance curve the pv cannot keep up. My pv setting influences the bike a great deal. It even has an influence on the jetting by that I mean if I run the 3xv00 PV curve in my 3ma it is so rich at 7000 rpm I dont get through it under load but reving the bike it revs through. The type of pv is also important the blade type requires less travel to open a greater distance than the drum type and that might be the reason.
This in my view is why they changed the PV maps so drastically, what you use to get from the PV map you now get from advanced curve and the pv gives you the nice kick in the ass at 9000 rpm.
Edd
The power valve differences is that the sugo cdis that was tested are not barrel power valves . The restricted boxes are barrel type power valves ...
Stroker I have a spare box to send, that won't require taking down a running bike (if that is what you have to do). I can post it tomorrow, if you, or someone else has not already sent one to juergen.
I'll check here in the am for a reply. If still needed I should be able to label and post in tomorrow.
jcsnook I posted mine today. It is a spare so no problems for me.
I can not wait to see all the maps
From what i can tell is that in 91 you where alowed to manufacture and use special F3 cylinders and heads
In 92 thy stoped the use of special F3 cylinders and you had to use the once that came with the motorcycle
That is why I think thy had a 70 and 80 CDI
The 91 and 92 sp heads are actually slightly different i've found. The squish is tighter on the 91 heads.
There were -70 and -80 pipes too so they changed those aswell
Dan
It will be nice to see the 70 and 80 curve
So you've got a -80 box coming, do you still need a -70 then?
Quote from: jcsnook on May 30, 2015, 02:55:42 PM
So you've got a -80 box coming, do you still need a -70 then?
Yes a 70 is still needed
Should be getting close to delivery date. 8)
Quote from: stroker3xv on June 03, 2015, 11:43:55 AM
Should be getting close to delivery date. 8)
It will take 2 to 3 weeks to get there
I have decided to get a Zeel to replace my 9A,
Juergen have you already given Borut the data you have collected and if I understand correctly he will be supplying his Zeels with the different Sugo maps ? I guess this would make it really easy for me to start with the 9A map and adjust accordingly.
Good job collecting the data, thanks
Yes, Borut already has the data, may be ask him to put them as a "standard" into the CDI for you (not sure if he will use our data or stick with his own ones).
Juergen
I wanted to ask - do the sugo cdi's operate the variable air jets ? If so are they controlled differently than with the stock cdi?
The air solenoids are mapped out on the stock CDI's but not on the sugos I see.
Quote from: ybk on June 04, 2015, 01:13:41 PM
I wanted to ask - do the sugo cdi's operate the variable air jets ? If so are they controlled differently than with the stock cdi?
The air solenoids are mapped out on the stock CDI's but not on the sugos I see.
The air solenoids are blanked of on the sugo carbs
And the solenoids power jets are used instead
Fantastic work, Juergen (& friends). 8) Many thanks for all your work with this, it's very interesting reading.
Looking forward to when you post the -70 & -80 curves. ;)
Quote from: Wullie3XV9 on June 05, 2015, 11:10:09 AM
Fantastic work, Juergen (& friends). 8) Many thanks for all your work with this, it's very interesting reading.
Looking forward to when you post the -70 & -80 curves. ;)
Yes me too Wullie, but I think they still need a -70 box. I'd have to pull my tail section off to see what box I have on my bike. It may be a -70...I don't recall now.
Juergen have the cdi arrived ?
Jcsnook have you had a look at your cdi ?
According to the tracking information it has arrived on the 10 June 2015
Sorry guys, the CDI is till not in my house. But I think its already in the Hanau customs clearance and hope to get the info soon, will let you know.
Juergen
They are becoming suspicious all these black boxes being send to one man? ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Some would pay good money for a nice black box ;D
Jools once you go black you will never go back they say O0
Any news on the cdis ?
Quote from: Yuri on June 17, 2015, 03:32:01 PM
Juergen have the cdi arrived ?
Jcsnook have you had a look at your cdi ?
Sorry, I've not been on here in a while...
No, not yet Yuri. Are we still needing the data from a -70 box?
Quote from: jcsnook on June 25, 2015, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: Yuri on June 17, 2015, 03:32:01 PM
Juergen have the cdi arrived ?
Jcsnook have you had a look at your cdi ?
Sorry, I've not been on here in a while...
No, not yet Yuri. Are we still needing the data from a -70 box?
Yes a 70 box is still needed
Very good... I've got to swap my swingarm out for the SP swinger I've sourced, so that will be a good time to pull the SUGO box out and send it off (if it's a -70 as I think it is)
Thanks
I got my cdi back today it was a month in SA customs
And yesterday I got the -80 CDI from the customs. Now I need to take the data logger out of the bike and setup again the CDI tester and get the data......
Nice !
Soon we wil have all the sugo CDI info
Nice!
So here it is... Attached the data included now the -80 CDI.
Well that ignition curve is a big surprise!
Almost looks like an unleaded curve. Nowhere near as much advance as i expected. The pv fully opens a lot later than i expected too. I thought it would be fully open nearer 10k.
Brilliant info thanks to all involved!
Dan
But isn't it that AV gas likes much comp and lean mixture, but less advance (and unleaded opposite around) like Wob and Frits say? The -80 was designed for AV gas as shown in the manual.
And in the sim it looks like a clever idea to fully open the PV later to use max of the power stroke as possible until you need the ex timing for the high / overrevs.
Juergen
This is a great step forward for knowledge
Quote from: 41juergen on July 05, 2015, 01:46:36 PM
But isn't it that AV gas likes much comp and lean mixture, but less advance (and unleaded opposite around) like Wob and Frits say? The -80 was designed for AV gas as shown in the
Juergen
This is the way I was taught many years before I heard of Frits and Wob , with avgas you can run high compression to help your mid range pull out of the corner but then you back off the timing to get the over rev back
I'll have my 75 cdi available after the season ends ;D
I was always under the impression that as avgas is a slower burning fuel it needs more advance to get it to burn optimally.
Dan
Now we only need the 70 and Neel's 75
Then all the sugo secrets are out
Quote from: maccas on July 05, 2015, 05:45:10 PM
I was always under the impression that as avgas is a slower burning fuel it needs more advance to get it to burn optimally.
Dan
I was under the exact same impression
Quote from: maccas on July 05, 2015, 05:45:10 PM
I was always under the impression that as avgas is a slower burning fuel it needs more advance to get it to burn optimally.
Dan
you're right, else it pours out your exhaust port unburnt
All of them together:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/compare.png)
Just a general question, so the advance changes based on rpm and throttle position, why would there be more advance at 0 throttle and lower revs (i assume that's when you're braking for a corner) :
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/ignition.png)
thanks for that yan, my eyes were bulging out my head trying to compare them in xls
i wasnt aware that the TPS was connected on SUGO bikes, nor Airjets
but i am not a SUGO expert
this is all so facinating
thanks jurgen
my guess on the 3D mapping being higher at 0 was that when rolling on power your advance tapered off depending how wide you open the throttle.
The advance is higher at lower throttle positions to compensate for poor cylinder filling when the throttle is part closed. Basically the less efficient the engine the more advance is required to compensate.
Also more advance puts less heat in the pipe, meaning it works better at lower rpm's.
Dan
Yeep Dan, that's also my understanding... I tried that TPS ignition mapping first time 2 years ago with my RZ350 with success and a nice feeling on the throttle when opening the gas.
More great data. Excellent work, Jeurgen 8).
I'd expect the -70 to be very similar to the -80 really, but as mentioned earlier, if you haven't managed to get hold of one by late October, I'll be happy to send my -70 over to you for reading. It'd be nice to have the full set :).
The main interest to me was confirmation that the -80 operates the solenoids for a while through the midrange as well as right at the top. I'd heard that that was the case, but it's good to see the confirmation in data form.
Do you think something closer to the Sugo curve might help you win some over-rev, Dan?
Quote from: maccas on July 05, 2015, 05:45:10 PM
I was always under the impression that as avgas is a slower burning fuel it needs more advance to get it to burn optimally.
Dan
Yes I had someone explained it to me like this. Fuels have a volatile and a high energy components, leaded have more high energy and unleaded more volatile components. So in essence it was a bit like the difference between gunpowder and gelignite. To ignite, gunpowder only needs a spark and is highly volatile while TNT needs a detonator and is stable. With ULP the volatile component can easy ignite the high energy component, with leaded a bit of extra time is needed for the volatile to ignite the high energy component
@ Warwick: yes the PJ's are electrical powerd up to when they open and later close again. I did some testing on my RZ some time ago by putting 140 PJ's in and reved it up at WOT. Somewere at 7500 rpm the engine started to bog because of too rich. Below the 7500 rpm the negative pressure was too low to suck fuel into the carb. So for the 3XV / 4DP /4TW and 5KE the point of were the fuel would be sucked in might be different (depending of the air flow and speed) but may be thats the reason the Yam engineers powered them up. At the SP / SPR with 32mm carbs it is not the case...
When you have the -70 than avalible just let me know, my pleasure to test it too. ;)
Juergen
Jurgens can you explain what you mean by "At the SP / SPR with 32mm carbs it is not the case..."
If you have a look into the excel file regarding the PJ switching it can be seen that only for the 36mm carbs of the -2 and -5 SP the PJ are closed between 7750 up to 9250 rpm, than opend and than closed again after 11400 rpm. The PJ's of the 32mm carbs (-7 and SPR bikes) are only closed after 11800 rpm (not in the lower RPM range like for the 36mm carbs).
I'll be interested to see if the -70 behaves that way.
Now it has be wondering if using my -9A with the 36mm carbs is a bit of a mismatch.......maybe it has something to do with the rotary type power valves........??
Jools we can swap carbs as I have 32mm with the -80 CDI :(
I have a set of 32mm and 36mm with sugo carb internals for both . When my 3xv is dum i will test it
What i find interesting about the powerjets being closed at that early rpm on the 36mm carbs and not on the 32's is that it is the opposite to what I would expect. The air velocity in the 32mm carb will be higher for a given rpm compared to the 36mm carb so it would be more likely that the powerjets start flowing in the 32's.
However, saying that, the bottom end drive on the 93-94 sp won't be as good, so the torque won't be as high. As torque is a product of airflow through the motor, the airflow may be lower in the 32mm carb compared to the 36 on the 91-92 sp.
Anyway i'm just rambling!
Warwick,
My ignition curve is actually very close to the sugo curve as it is (which is a big surprise to me) but certainly got some more options to try on the dyno next time around.
Dan
No dont stop rambling. I am still trying to get my head around this. I am running the 36mm carbs and plan on connecting the power jets. If you shut them off at those rpm's the bike will run leaner? Is the airflow reduced at those rpm's? So you shut the fuel off to prevent the bike from running too rich?
Edd
No guys
Air velocity/ speed increases at the same RPM range if the diameter is smaller , thats why its the opposite way around on the smaller carbs..If i understand the power jet theory correctly..
On the dyno with my 38 carbs it also surprised me that I had to close the PJ earlier than I would have believed. Else it wouldn't rev out.
Sorry i meant higher in the 32's, i've corrected my post.
Dan
Yip thats correct Paul,
you only need a richer mixture for acceleration once the higher rpm is reached a leaner mixture is aimed for.
Hence the power jets shutting off at high RPM..
I found the same scenario on the dyno with my bike, a richer main jet made less hp on the top, the low to mid range didnt suffer that much
you also dont want to go lean on top either...
Wayne
Aaaaahh! I get it now you are fucked if you do and fuckefd if you dont. ;D
On a more serious note they shut it down then open it again. Paul you only shut yours down at 11000 rpm. Why open it again? That bit is getting me to think there id another reason. What you guys are saying is st the top for over ref.
Edd
On the zeel on is off.
Small correction, the 7K in the original graph was actually the one with the TPS at 0%, whereas the all the others were at 100%. I have made an updated one showing the old 7K and the new one with TPS at 100%. It actually matches the -80 rather closely now which leads me to believe the -80 may be for unleaded actually?
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.org%2Ffk7gw2v43%2Fcdi.png&hash=beaae7af101206e072c5e832f3891c9bd963b6db)
Can someone pm the address to send my Cdi to .
Thank you
Hey Juegens. Just to let you know I have received my CDI.
Quote from: Neal on August 01, 2015, 08:29:25 AM
Can someone pm the address to send my Cdi to .
Thank you
I have send you the address
That's Yuri, I have only limited time to answer as being in holiday in US, will be back end of the week... ;D
And the pv graph:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/PV.png)
Interestingly it starts at fully open..
Quote from: ybk on August 04, 2015, 04:27:35 PM
Interestingly it starts at fully open..
Yes, both the -70 and -80 do that. They sound quite raucous at tickover... 8)
Quote from: Neal on August 01, 2015, 08:29:25 AM
Can someone pm the address to send my Cdi to .
Thank you
Have you send the CDI ?
Warick any up date on your cdi
Which one are you still missing?
Completely slipped my mind in the Autumn because it wasn't convenient for Juergen the the last time it came up.
Flick me a PM, Jeurgen, if you still have the rig set-up and I'll send you the -70 for reading. Though it'll be pretty much the same as the -80 I expect.
I'm glad this has resurfaced
I would really like to see a TZ leaded and unleaded curve on here. A 92-94 and a 96-98
Quote from: Paul on May 15, 2016, 10:21:52 AM
I'm glad this has resurfaced
I would really like to see a TZ leaded and unleaded curve on here. A 92-94 and a 96-98
It will be interesting to compair the TZ to the TZR maps
So Yuri, sorry it took some time... ;D
I got the data out of a 4DP-10 which was the TZ 4DP2 from '93 . It can be seen that they used a very high numbers of ignition timing because of using the AVGAS fuel. The blade PV open very rapidly compared to the rotary ones.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi643.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu160%2F41juergen%2FTZR%2520250%2520R%25203XV%2FCDI%2520Tester%2FIgnition%2520and%2520PV%25204DP-10_zpsmk7xoa5h.jpg&hash=1bb7701a4f158276fc3fdb4d30bc629d8eb968cc) (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/CDI%20Tester/Ignition%20and%20PV%204DP-10_zpsmk7xoa5h.jpg.html)
Attached the excel file..
Crikey, no wonder my mates 3xv nuked itself on the dyno with an extra 20 degrees advance on top of that!
Good work as always Juergen, thanks for sharing!
Dan
Quote from: Yuri on February 04, 2016, 03:26:52 PM
Quote from: jcsnook on February 04, 2016, 03:20:05 PM
Which one are you still missing?
3xv70 & 3xv75
I am about to have a 3xv75 for xmas. you guys still need it?
Quote from: 41juergen on December 20, 2016, 03:20:42 PM
So Yuri, sorry it took some time... ;D
I got the data out of a 4DP-10 which was the TZ 4DP2 from '93 . It can be seen that they used a very high numbers of ignition timing because of using the AVGAS fuel. The blade PV open very rapidly compared to the rotary ones.
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi643.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu160%2F41juergen%2FTZR%2520250%2520R%25203XV%2FCDI%2520Tester%2FIgnition%2520and%2520PV%25204DP-10_zpsmk7xoa5h.jpg&hash=1bb7701a4f158276fc3fdb4d30bc629d8eb968cc) (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/CDI%20Tester/Ignition%20and%20PV%204DP-10_zpsmk7xoa5h.jpg.html)
Attached the excel file..
Thanks
Excellent work as usually ...
I can't thank you enough Juergen. That is the exact model of my 4dp.
Ultimately I will run it on a Zeel. Thanks.
A 4dp-20 cdi will be interesting to compare
All together:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/ignition-all.png)
and PV:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/pvgraph.png)
9A looks similar to what I ended up settling on at the dyno with the 3MA
99 unleaded
Can you remove the 7k one that is not a 100% TPS
Quote from: Yuri on December 21, 2016, 12:36:41 PM
Can you remove the 7k one that is not a 100% TPS
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/ignition-all2.PNG)
And just for interest sake, all at 0 TPS:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/ignition-0tps.PNG)
You gotta love that 4dp curve. It says "I'm designed to go like stink!"
We must get neal to send his 4tw cdi to see a unleaded curve
Hi guys, thanks for the feedback. As Yuri wrote, it would be very interesting to see a "unleaded" curve. That should show some lower values at least around peak power...
I don't mind sending my cdi to get read . 96 model
Quote from: Neal on December 23, 2016, 02:10:00 PM
I don't mind sending my cdi to get read . 96 model
Thanks Neal that will be grate !
Quote from: yorkee on January 05, 2017, 09:28:40 PM
Quote from: Yuri on December 20, 2016, 05:54:34 PM
Quote from: yorkee on December 20, 2016, 05:12:41 PM
Quote from: Yuri on February 04, 2016, 03:26:52 PM
Quote from: jcsnook on February 04, 2016, 03:20:05 PM
Which one are you still missing?
3xv70 & 3xv75
I am about to have a 3xv75 for xmas. you guys still need it?
Yes it is still needed !
It arriveed! Who should I send to?
To Juergen
I will pm you his address
I wonder what a 3YL would look like in comparison?
I would think not so much different as it was only 2 years earlier and still AVGAS. But If someone has one I would be happy to test it...
Quote from: jools on January 09, 2017, 03:50:46 AM
I wonder what a 3YL would look like in comparison?
I think that it will be less advance on the old TZ's the head volumes was smaller...
Quote from: jools on January 09, 2017, 03:50:46 AM
I wonder what a 3YL would look like in comparison?
Unremarkable .I do have the curve on my now crashed external HD but this is fairly close
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi155.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs297%2FLozza85_2007%2Fpost-12-04729-2001KitManualP2.jpg&hash=afb0c87ff69a5418c972041716ac871c2b1cbb23) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/post-12-04729-2001KitManualP2.jpg.html)
Quote from: 41juergen on January 09, 2017, 10:04:15 AM
I would think not so much different as it was only 2 years earlier and still AVGAS. But If someone has one I would be happy to test it...
I have a spare one I could loan so that we have an accurate comparison.
(as long as I get it back ;D)
send me a PM Jurgen
Was the 4DP tested with the same flywheel as all the 3xv ones Juergen? I'll have to dig out my spreadsheet and see what that would be with the 4DP-10 flywheel.
Dan
Dan, I got the matching flywheel with it and tested it in the correct setup. Later I made a test with the (smaller) 4DP or 5KE flywheel (don't know the exact model year), but there was no difference on the ignition timing. At least with the accuracy I can read of the degree wheel.
@Jools: PM send...
Ah brill!
The only thing is that the initial advance for the 4dp-10 model should be 18 degrees, not 21. So i think the curve should be dropped by 3 degrees?
Dan
I'm not sure Dan about the need for dropping 3°CA. I measured also the Zeel where I put the 20°CA curve in to (kind of) calibrate the system and than re-checked the 4DP data. The output was as shown... I would believe that the 4DP would also fit to the higher advance requirements for AVGAS?
But in the 4dp manual the ignition timing is quoted as 18 degrees (well the equivalent in mm before tdc).
The user is supposed to adjust the ignition pick ups so that the rear of the lobe on the flywheel corresponds with that figure. Then the timing is as yamaha designed. If you set that figure to 21 degrees then you are advancing the ignition by 3 degrees because the distance between the front of the lobe and rear of the lobe is fixed.
Does that make sense? I'm not knocking what you are doing i think it's great. But that is what would make sense to me.
Plus i'd expect the 9A curve to be very similar to 4DP as they run the same fuel and very similar engine/pipe spec etc?
Dan
Agree with you on the "mechanical" part how to setup the ignition timing on a TZ. But I'm wondering what happens inside the CDI after getting the impulse to start the spark. It will take some time to calculate that point and the power must be inducted. So may be that's the reason that the mechanical adjustment don't necessary must be the same as the ignition timing? And as said, I believe with the Zeel putting the 20°CA ignition timing in was some kind of calibration for the system. Also taking 3°CA of advance away the ignition timing at max. power point would be only 13°CA BTDC for an AVGAS engine...
But may be the guys having more experience with real race engines can give us their thoughts too?
Just for interest sake here is the head vol of the 94 RSP
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F4B7A748F-A614-4765-A9A0-548119945A20.png&hash=2e6803d157a4c99d10e943b96b9e79b7cfa1480a) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/4B7A748F-A614-4765-A9A0-548119945A20.png.html)
Translated
1) Machining the head cylinder Please process the head cylinder for TZR 250SP according to the following procedure at the time of SS race First measure the volume of the combustion chamber of the head cylinder of the basic car (spark plug NGK BR 9 EC mounted) Next Please cut the mating surface with the cylinder so that the volume of the combustion chamber becomes 9.5 cc (when the spark plug NGK BR 9 ECM is installed). At this time, please adjust the feed speed etc. of the cutter so that it becomes about the same level as the original processed skin. If the surface is too rough it will cause gas leaks, water leaks etc. The lower limit of the volume of the combustion chamber should be 9.3 cc. If it is less than 93 cc, the elongation will become worse. When the proportion surface is cut by 0.1 mm, the volume of the combustion chamber decreases by 0.25 cc when the spark plug (NGK B R 9 ECM) is installed. Note) Spark plug NGK BR9ECM is used for combustion chamber volume measurement only and should not be used for racing.
92 RSP sugo head setup
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg197%2FYurivd%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F16F485E6-B3AB-419A-BAE4-449675057516.png&hash=e521ab6bbd0175200d9daae3d5aa7e0461b9e566) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Yurivd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/16F485E6-B3AB-419A-BAE4-449675057516.png.html)
Translated
4, ss Processing for racing and incorporation 1) Machining of head cylinder Please process the head cylinder for TZR 250 SP according to the following procedure when SS racing. Please scrape down the mating surface to the cylinder evenly to 0.2mm. If you scrape over 0.2mm, the piston and head skimmer become strict and cause trouble. At this time, please adjust the feed speed etc. of the cutter so that the surface roughness is the same as the original processed skin. If the surface is too rough, gas leaks, water leaks etc will be caused. When the mating face is cut by 0.2 m, the volume of the combustion chamber becomes 9.3 to 9.4 cc when the spur plug (NGK BR 9 ECM) is installed (9.8 cc when STD is NGK BR 9 ECM installed) Compression ratio 8.0 → 0.3 to 8.4 Note) Spark plug NGK BR9ECM is used for combustion chamber volume measurement only and should not be used for racing.
Juergen
last night I located 2 x 3YL CDI's. They are both labelled but have different packaging, which seems odd for a model in existence for only 1 year. Also the denso part numbers are different. Can you measure PV opening without a controller ? Do you need the flywheel too ?
I'll send them both but I can't recall if the PV controller is integral. I'm using a 4DP10 on the bike at present. I sent these both off for testing to make sure they were ok but never got around to fitting preferring the smaller, lighter 4DP flywheel.
cheers
Jools
Jools, I don't need the flywheel as I tested the 4DP with both (the matching one as well with my smaller diameter 4DP or 5KE flywheel) and got the data same as shown in the excel file.
Not sure what you mean with needing the controller? Normally the PV control is a part of the CDI's, at least all I saw before. I have a PV motor connected into the loom and got the PV data out of all the CDI's....
cheers
Juergen
Juergen
I'll send you photos & cct diagram to explain. It has discrete looms for connection. It does include PV controller, my mistake I though it was like the 2ma/1kt arrangement.
cct diagram attached below
Perfect, yes I see. I double checked that yesterday by myself too and found that wiring diagram... :)) But is the CDI connector itself the same as on the 3XV / 4DP ones?
Juergen,
One quick question.
4dp flywheel vs the one you have used for all other testing.
To get the initial 21 degrees on the ignition curve, did you have to adjust the stator backing plate after changing flywheels? If you did, then that is the point I am trying to make.
Dan
Quote from: 41juergen on January 13, 2017, 08:52:28 AM
Perfect, yes I see. I double checked that yesterday by myself too and found that wiring diagram... :)) But is the CDI connector itself the same as on the 3XV / 4DP ones?
No they are individual plugs as shown in the diagram.
Let me know if you still wish to test them ;)
Dan, when using the different rotors I also needed to change the plates (as the diameter was different and so also the distance of the pickups to the flywheel was different). But as said I used the Zeel to set the starting point with the 20°CA flat curve (what you normally use to check the base advance) and than tested the different CDI's. So that's the reason I believe the different flywheels have no impact?
BTW: the Zeel uses only the front lobe whilst e.g. 1 cylinder engines typically use the rear for idle and the front in the higher revs, most of 2 cylinder and / or racing engines only use the front lobe (that was the feedback I got from Borut).
Jools, yes I would be still very interested to test them. This also to get all data and to give every body the opportunity to use a programmable CDI if wanted... ;D
cheers
Juergen
Ok got you. I'll reply properly at lunch :-)
Dan
Ok, so you use the zeeltronic to get the front of the lobe on each flywheel in the same place for each test. Correct?
That means that regardless of the CDI you test, each curve will be relative to each other. So 4DP would have "x" degrees more advance compared to say 3xv-9A, when one type of flywheel is used. I totally get that and I think that is a good comparison. You have taken the back of the lobe (initial timing calculation) out of the equation (-P)
But by doing what you've done, we don't know what the "absolute" ignition curve is for each CDI tested.
I'll try to explain...
OEM cdi uses the back of the lobe for starting and idle. Once above say 2000rpm the front of the lobe takes over and the ignition timing calculations are based on the "static angle/advance (front of lobe)" - "x" degrees to give the programmed ignition advance.
Taking the 4DP 93 model as an example, the back of the lobe is 18 degrees BTDC. The workshop manual denotes setting the ignition timing to this figure. This means that the back of the lobe will be in the centre of the pick up at 18 degrees BTDC for each cylinder.
The ignition advance curve is then determined by the relative position of the front of the lobe, to the back of the lobe. For arguments sake lets say front of lobe is 60 degrees BTDC.
If you set up your machine with the 4DP-10 flywheel such that the initial advance is 21 degrees, then the front of the lobe is 63 degrees BTDC. Which means the ignition curve is advanced by 3 degrees compared to how Yamaha tell you to set the ignition timing in the workshop manual.
And surely the " out of the factory" ignition timing is what we are trying to determine?
If I need to explain more just say.
Dan
So it looks like that you are correct! ;D As I'm a mechanical engineer all the electronics stuff is very thin ice for me.... ;)
I had a chat with Borut about that and his feedback was that he believes that also the 3XV CDI uses the rear lobe for starting / idling. That would mean to determine the correct values in the higher revs we would need to double check if the e.g. 28°CA timing for the 4DP2 is correct via checking it with a strobe lamp on real bike, right? With that we would be sure that the timing curve should be correct up to max. speed whereas the idling would be not too important.
But during writing that following came up my mind: when using the Zeel to calibrate the 4DP2 rotor and stator plate on the test rig that should give the correct position compared to a 4DP engine, right? So than checking the 4DP2 CDI should give the correct data. When doing that for a 3XV CDI I would also need to use the 3XV rotor with pick-up's. The same if I would test a 4DP CDI which had the smaller diameter rotor of the 4DP3... That all only if the °CA length of the lobe is different between the rotors...
That makes collaboration between people so successful, what one don't know others can fill up... (-P) thank's for helping me Dan!
No problem! Don't worry, you don't need to run a bike, you can do it all with your test machine and use the zeeltronic to set it up for the 3xv cdi's.
I'll write more at lunch...
Dan
Juergen,
I have made a mistake. The 3 degrees thing I said is wrong! It may be that the ignition curve you have quoted for the 4DP is correct, it may also be not quite right!
This is because we have another variable at play! The adjustable pick ups :-\
I think what you need to do for the 4DP is this:
1. Set up your machine with 4DP cdi, flywheel, stator.
2. Have machine running at 1000rpm.
3. Adjust pick ups so that spark plug is firing at 18 degrees BTDC.
4. Measure ignition curve across rev range.
This way, we know that each pick up is mounted precisely at TDC for each cylinder. For the 3xv it is straight forward as the pick ups are fixed and cannot be moved.
I suggest you do the same for your other smaller flywheel, but instead of 18 degrees BTDC. Use 22 degrees BTDC (figure from 5KE workshop manual). Then we know that you have the front of the lobe on the flywheel in the right place for that type of flywheel.
You can then fit the zeel, and using the 20 degree flat curve, calculate the static angle for that flywheel. Whatever the difference is between that and the static angle of the 3xv (65 degrees), allows you to correct your 3xv curves without testing them all again.
For example, say you calculate that the static angle of the 5KE flywheel is 64 degrees. This means you'd need to add 1 degree to all 3xv curves, they'd then be correct (-P). The only part of the curve that may be wrong is the idle part, as that depends on what type of 3xv flywheel is fitted (i.e. some have the back of the lobe at 10 degrees BTDC, some have 21 degrees BTDC). Idle/ starting doesn't matter anyway, as long as the figure provides acceptable idling and starting.
Dan
I hope that makes sense, this is a lot more complicated than it first appears.
Juergen,
Had another think. When you tested 3xv cdi's with small flywheel you set the initial part of the curve to 21 degrees by adjusting the backing plate/ pick ups correct?
Dan
Dan,
I didn't worked with adjusting the pick-up plate. My "main" assumption was that the idle timing will be defined also by the front lobe (so independent from the flywheel lobe spec) which may be was wrong... Based on that I made all tests. Today I use the Zeel to "calibrate" the ignition timing needle as per Borut's answer we know that he uses the front lobe for all rev's.
When I tested first time the 3XV CDI's I set the ignition timing during idle (approx. 1300 rpm) to 21°CA as shown in the 3XV1/2 manual (see attached "timing needle" at the degree wheel). Of course this procedures is finally the same like adjusting the pick-up's via the plate.
Luckily I did that with the 3XV-10 CDI of the 3XV2 as the small TZ flywheel has the same lobe starting and ending CA position as the related 3XV1/2 flywheel. So at least these 3XV-10 and 3XV-00 data should be correct (as both use the same flywheel spec and idling timing as shown in the manual).
Yesterday I measured again the 3 different flywheels I have: the 3XV1/2, the 3XV4/6/9 and the TZ250 small diameter one. The starting point of the lobe relative to the cut out to fit the half moon in the notch at the crank is all the same. The CA duration of the lobes is for the 3XV4 flywheel a bit longer than for the 3XV1 and the TZ. The last both one have exactly the same starting and end point of the lobe with an overall 45°CA duration, the 3XV4 flywheel has the same starting point but a longer lobe with an overall duration of 52°CA.
The longer 3XV4/6/9 lobe should theoretically go along with the different ignition timing at idle for the 3XV4/6/9 (10°CA BTDC as shown in the manual). But from the data I have it's not the case. So first I will verify this evening again the data of the 3XV-00 / -10 CDI with the small flywheel against the current data. Let's see...
That's really confusing, I would prefer to verify the ignition timing at let's say 3500 rpm with a strobe lamp on a stock bike. Unfortunately my bike is not running yet...
Juergen
I don't know if it's helpful here, but I can confirm that when I used to run a TZ/SP set-up many years ago, the 4DP-10 ignition seemed to work fine using the 91SP rotor and pickups (and loom) in use. I never measured the timing, but with a very safe set-up for road fuel (modified TZ heads to give a safe rather than optimised head volume) it gave a fair powercurve, with a peak at around 11,500rpm with fair over-rev. This would lead me to believe that the ignition timing couldn't have been far from what it should have been?
Reading this with interest..........
Juergen - do you need the stator and rotor with the CDI's ?
I also have the loom I can send too.
(did you pm me your address ??)
Jools
Yeah sorry to throw confusion into the mix everyone. It's just after seeing a 3xv with stock flywheel, tz top end and pipes, and 4dp-00 box make less power everywhere than with a 3xv-00 box then destroy itself it made me think about what is happening.
When we measured it, the advance was around 35 degrees at low rpms and was still 25 getting close to peak power. It had to be that the 4dp-00 flywheel at least had a much lower static advance than the 3xv flywheel.
Dan
Quote from: maccas on January 20, 2017, 12:52:02 AM
Yeah sorry to throw confusion into the mix everyone. It's just after seeing a 3xv with stock flywheel, tz top end and pipes, and 4dp-00 box make less power everywhere than with a 3xv-00 box then destroy itself it made me think about what is happening.
When we measured it, the advance was around 35 degrees at low rpms and was still 25 getting close to peak power. It had to be that the 4dp-00 flywheel at least had a much lower static advance than the 3xv flywheel.
Dan
Yes, those are uncomfortably high numbers, aren't they. My set-up was a 3YL top end (modded heads were somewhere between 11-12 cc fitted I think?). As noted, no idea about ignition numbers with the 4DP-10 ignition and stock SP rotor and pick-ups, sadly, but I never had any top end woes with it (what fuel was the blown TZ topper using? It'd be wanting AVGAS with stock heads, wouldn't it?). Mine saw mainly road use (bit of comedy touring!), but did a couple of track days on it too. Crank went eventually (pre-mix, long downhill road run, mind on other things...). Still have all the bits somewhere I think.
Heads were opened up for use with super unleaded fuel.
Just seemed very odd to me. I wonder if the 92 and 93 tz flywheels differed significantly.
Juergen,
If you use the zeeltronic to find the static advance of whatever set up you are using, you can then apply that to the 3xv cdi's.
It doesn't really matter where the pick up is, or where the lobe is. Set the static advance so that programmed advance equals real measured advance (using 20 degree flat curve). Make a note of the static advance figure (say it was 62 degrees for example).
Then test 3xv cdi without changing flywheel or pick up position. The output ignition curve then simply needs moving up or down to match the 65 degree static advance on ALL 3xv flywheels.
If static advance measured was 62, then the extracted ignition curve would need advancing by 3 degrees. Does that make sense?
Dan
For the tz, the flywheel has to be set to match the initial advance set up in the manual in order to make sure the front of the lobe is in the correct place, as it was set in the factory.
3xv is easier as all the flywheels have 65 btdc from front of lobe and pick ups are fixed.
Dan
Dan, I think we are on the same page now... :)) As you said, as long as I can use the Zeel to "calibrate" the initial setup all CDI data higher then idle are still ok.
I was struggling with the idle data from the 3XV-00 /-10/-40 CDI's. But yesterday I went through the manuals again and saw that the 3XV1 and 2 have different flywheels (which I though is not). So now I would only need a LKZ14 flywheel to see how different the rear lobe is in relation to the TZ one I used. It would be good to see when adjusting a TZ to connect a Zeel and see if it shows the same base advance of 65°CA...
About the TZ flywheels I think a least the diameter changed from '92 to '93, but from what I have seen the 4DP2 and my "small" diameter flywheel have the same lobe setup.
Jool, yes I have send you a PM with my address... ;) It would be good if you can also send me the rotor and stator to verify what I stated above.
Got the -75 CDI from Yorkee and here are the results. The ignition timing is as high as you would expect from a AVGAS setup....
Grate job Juergen !!
Now Warwick must just send his 3xv70 cdi then we have them all
Also missing the 60 CDI
Already have Juergens adress. Sending mine to him next week.
Interesting bugger the 60.
Bellow a pic. of the 00 and the 60, from the manual.
Quite similar to 9A, although a bit more extreme..
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/files/cdi-all.png)
Have we reached consensus in terms of the actual timing values? As far as I understand all the curve shapes as well as their relative position to each other are correct. It's just that they may need to be transposed up or down a few values maybe?
I believe that all data higher then idle rpms are correct as the idle is determined by the end of the rear lobe (which is different between the 3 different TZR flywheels). But as the TZ flywheel I use has the same start and end of the lobe as the 3XV1 only the idle data for the -00 CDI are definitely correct, the others I would like to clarify. So does somebody have a flywheel with the marking TLKZ14 what I can get loaned to check this?
cheers
Juergen
Late in the SP race series standard head sizes was only allowed. I think that is the reason the 3xv75 has more advance than the 3xv9A
Quote from: casal-fan on February 12, 2017, 02:35:59 AM
Also missing the 60 CDI
Already have Juergens adress. Sending mine to him next week.
Interesting bugger the 60.
Bellow a pic. of the 00 and the 60, from the manual.
Im running a 60cdi in my track bike, it made the most poer out of all the cdi's i tested, be interesting to see figures myself.
Quote from: zoomzoom on February 16, 2017, 06:27:13 PM
Quote from: casal-fan on February 12, 2017, 02:35:59 AM
Also missing the 60 CDI
Already have Juergens adress. Sending mine to him next week.
Interesting bugger the 60.
Bellow a pic. of the 00 and the 60, from the manual.
Im running a 60cdi in my track bike, it made the most poer out of all the cdi's i tested, be interesting to see figures myself.
Your head volumes are so small it makes the timing advance
I heard you are running a 0.6mm squish
If you install a sugo cdi the timing is too advance...
Quote from: Yuri on February 16, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
Quote from: zoomzoom on February 16, 2017, 06:27:13 PM
Quote from: casal-fan on February 12, 2017, 02:35:59 AM
Also missing the 60 CDI
Already have Juergens adress. Sending mine to him next week.
Interesting bugger the 60.
Bellow a pic. of the 00 and the 60, from the manual.
Im running a 60cdi in my track bike, it made the most poer out of all the cdi's i tested, be interesting to see figures myself.
Your head volumes are so small it makes the timing advance
I heard you are running a 0.6mm squish
If you install a sugo cdi the timing is too advance...
You heard wrong Yuri, whoever told you that im running 0.6mm squish knows nothing, the squish was 0.8mm (Y) ;)
Zomzom, belive me, I have spendt quite a lot of time looking at your research ^-^
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Tzr-250-3xv-60-Cdi-Ecu-1993-Rs-Sp-1994-Sp-/142243545545?hash=item211e6041c9:g:qE0AAOSwZQRYdJBa&vxp=mtr
seems cheap...............
Quote from: jools on February 17, 2017, 08:21:03 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Tzr-250-3xv-60-Cdi-Ecu-1993-Rs-Sp-1994-Sp-/142243545545?hash=item211e6041c9:g:qE0AAOSwZQRYdJBa&vxp=mtr
seems cheap...............
That is dirt cheap.. :o
The '60 is for the 93 onwards R/RS with oil solinoids. It's a replacement not an upgrade I think.
A lot happening between the 40 and the 60, and the models they were fitted to.
Power went down from from 45 to 40 HP due to japanese rules, exh. port timing increase from about 188* to about 192* (wich maybe means a different PV timing as well), electronic oil pump.
Jürgen is the key here... wich reminds me I have to get my hands out of a certain place and send my 60 to him ;D
I'm on stand by Rui,... ;D
i rem phil mccallen on std kr1 in 1989 finnish 7th from back of grid in 250 350 race at tandragee 100 road race. that was the cream of the cream road racers then. he was born 5 miles away from it. so read into it want you want
So I managed to get the data out of the 3YL setup from Jools, thanks a lot for sending the parts! As well as the other AVGAS CDI the timing is higher than for the unleaded setup. The PV opens fast and a bit earlier than the 4DP-10 version.
Hi Juergen, do you need a '60 to test?
I can send you mine if you like so long as I can get it back in a couple of months (or less).
Let me know if you do.
Thank's a lot for the offer, but Rui already have send me his -60... So hope to get it these days..
cheers
Juergen
Woo! I am hoping to see if I can put a woodruff advance on my '60 after I have ported the barrels to get some performance before going "programmable".
Honestly, we will see. But my feeling is if you want do it at least minimum seriously better go with a programmable. Everything else is wasted time and money, and depending on how much power you are seeking for, the programmable brings you a big step forward without any porting work.
A modification of the woodruff key gives you a slightly better timings at higher revs, but creates potentially problems with a too high timing in the lower revs. Also the PV will be not correct either...
BTW: in my opinion that is the same issue with stock porting using a different (tuned) pipe...
Quote from: 41juergen on February 24, 2017, 09:19:29 AM
So I managed to get the data out of the 3YL setup from Jools, thanks a lot for sending the parts! As well as the other AVGAS CDI the timing is higher than for the unleaded setup. The PV opens fast and a bit earlier than the 4DP-10 version.
I missed this link.......... ::)
That PV does open fast in comparison, now I wonder how the Reverse cylinder TZ's compare seeing as the 3YL was the first model between those and the 4DP, with the "plug in all in one" CDI..............??
Jep, you are right.
BTW: if someone have the parts for a 3TC or so I'm happy to test that too.... Also to 3MA stuff if that would make sense...
So here are the -60 data. Interesting how far the Yam engineers retarded the timing...
Together
Quote from: 41juergen on February 26, 2017, 06:24:34 PM
So here are the -60 data. Interesting how far the Yam engineers retarded the timing...
Thank you for doing this :-). Looking at the graph it's almost as if someone was expecting emmisions testing between 6 & 8K......
Quote from: ybk on March 05, 2017, 09:21:55 AM
Together
Wow that is interesting...
Out of all the cdi tested, the -60 has almost the least advance curve ( average) but yet it yielded the most power of all...
Just to add..That was on both R and SPR motors
I know the low down advance helps for low down power before you come onto the pipes and then advance decreases as the revs go up, but in the end the gains are minimal, but there is a gain.
In fact Scott tried my -60 cdi at phakisa last year and he said to me he could feel quite a difference out of corners and at lower RPM range, but top end was about the same. he is running stock pipes and stock motor.
I did find with my motors, both R and SPR that with the 00, 40 and 9A CDI my lower RPM range pull was better, i had the same expansion pipes on with these tests..
It also depends on setup and a few factors hey..
Thanks Juergen and all involved
Yes,
many thanks to Juergen for his time and effort collating this data. It gives a good window into the timeline of how the Yamaha engineers train of thought changed through model development with the introduction of outside interference's.
And thank's a lot to you guys! That was a serious international cooperation... :))
At least I learned a lot for using the Sim tool and also that a programmable CDI might be better nowadays rather then using the too expensive SUGO parts..
cheers
Juergen
Such helpful data Juergen. And thanks for the hard work.
I hate to say but it is one step from being complete and that is an unleaded TZ 4TW
Earlier Warwick said he ran pump fuel on a 4dp leaded ignition (although not 100% sure of matched timing) and I personally know a chap who races a TZ 5ke on avgas.
I want to convert my TZ 4dp to pump and am having some heads machined as I type.
Had anyone got access to a 4TW cdi?
Quote from: 41juergen on February 26, 2017, 06:24:34 PM
So here are the -60 data. Interesting how far the Yam engineers retarded the timing...
*bump*
Really useful info for someone with a CDI in their bike, standard, SUGO or programmable (i.e. everyone).
This is such a valuable resource. (-P) I've taken long while getting my head round the science of this and I've finally got there and am making practical use of this.
I've done a video of my thought process and implementation, in hope it'll be helpful to others thinking about a programmable CDI ;D
Thanks all to have contributed to this, here's the video https://youtu.be/xwNppbGfcHY (https://youtu.be/xwNppbGfcHY)
& Thanks to YBK for approval (-P)
Well done. I thought of the same thing but did not want to take the time to make a script to work from. For a visual person like me this is perfect. I had no idea about getting the connectors added. I like the lighted switches you added for the mapping. I made several minor wiring mistakes but were easily fixed. Extension cable is nice.. Was that from Borut or your guy? A few things you discussed but did not show was the calibration of the TPS. Pretty straight forward but would help first timer. A few other things are the static angle and compensation you briefly touched on. These are set by Borut for the particular bike you order it for as far as I understand. They can be changed. M in SC found the last setting to be off on his bike. Looking forward to the dyno run. Was ashamed when I did mine that his computer was down. Thanks again and will really help those that are nervous about installing a Zeel.
Quote from: rz500guy on April 18, 2023, 03:41:53 PM
Well done. I thought of the same thing but did not want to take the time to make a script to work from. For a visual person like me this is perfect. I had no idea about getting the connectors added. I like the lighted switches you added for the mapping. I made several minor wiring mistakes but were easily fixed. Extension cable is nice.. Was that from Borut or your guy? A few things you discussed but did not show was the calibration of the TPS. Pretty straight forward but would help first timer. A few other things are the static angle and compensation you briefly touched on. These are set by Borut for the particular bike you order it for as far as I understand. They can be changed. M in SC found the last setting to be off on his bike. Looking forward to the dyno run. Was ashamed when I did mine that his computer was down. Thanks again and will really help those that are nervous about installing a Zeel.
Thanks! Yes a couple of bits I could have gone into in more detail. One was the TPS calibration and the other is the PV values, which I did mention but it's had to explain without showing it. Basically two cocktail sticks and a piece of card. Yeah maybe that one's more visual than words ;D I got my Zeel from The Tuning Works and they did the connectors all potted in, so no dramas for me on the wiring, but I did forget to order the extension cable and only realised after fitting it all that it was a one shot wonder without it. I think both Sean at TTW and Borut at Zeel have these cables. Static angle, yes, that came set up with the 3XV config on the Zeel. From what I understand all 3XV's have the same - I could be wrong (and frequently am!)
The main setup is covered in Phil's thread here, so I didn't go into that much http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5829.msg58208#msg58208 (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5829.msg58208#msg58208), but I have linked this forum in the video so if people are after expert advice, they can some onboard!
Thanks again and hope this lessens the anxiety of someone thinking about a new controller. In my opinion it is worth it just for the piece of mind that I do not have a 30+ year old electronic part in my bike. It could fail or give you tuning issues that is hard to diagnose. One less thing to worry about on a build.
very good video indeed. makes me happy my 1kt is 'dumb' by comparison, man thats a LOT. (-P)
Shame your wearing a Ducati top!!!!