The IC inside the CDI

[tzr-v4]

Hi Louis,

What signal is on the 3rd picture ? In Yellow with 2 square signal... the pickup 

I've seem this form of square on the TDR250 CDI I'm playing with.

My firmware is firing the spark at each falling edge so having 2 falling edges will mess it 

I'll read you text later today.

Good points with you USB oscilloscope.

Olivier.

[Louis]

What signal is on the 3rd picture ? In Yellow with 2 square signal... the pickup

Yes, that is pickup pulse (black/whit wire) vs ignition signal (orange wire)

My firmware is firing the spark at each falling edge so having 2 falling edges will mess it 

I thought it is strange to.

The IC incoming pickupsignal on pin22, has a normal shape in low rpm's till about 55HZ
Then it is getting a second pulse, and that pulse you can set wider by turning at the TPS sensor.

Ill do a quick test with no IC and see if the shape stays the same

Give me a moment

[tzr-v4]

OK

The TDR does not have TPS so no effect but high RPM could generate the analog electronic to miss work (or work differently  ).

I'll look how my firmware could be setup to react on first falling edge and ignore the second one (software blanking).

Olivier.

I should pickup the timing light this week 

[Louis]

I should pickup the timing light this week

Ok, great

have some results.
Pickup signal measured on the black/white wire vs. Pin 22 incoming signal IC (with no IC placed)

Fist shot is at 52Hz (both signals are as expected)


Second shot is at 56Hz (Now the pickup signal is changing with a second pulse)


Third shot is at higher rpm. (you see the pickup signal is still split up by two pulses till 12000rpm I think)


As you can see Olivier, the incoming pickup IC signal is staying the same. (Measured with no IC placed)
But the signal is given by the rising edge of the pickup signal.

When the oem IC is placed the incoming IC pickup signal is changeable by turning at the TPS sensor.

[tzr-v4]

OK so what is important is that the green signal (to IC pin) stays with only on pulse from 5v to 0v and back.

Can you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?

Maybe advance is calculated from rising edge.

[Louis]

OK so what is important is that the green signal (to IC pin) stays with only on pulse from 5v to 0v and back.

The incoming pickup IC signal stays as one pulse from 0 till 5V all the time

Can you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?

Here I have made two snap shots (50HZ and 150HZ), with all the thinks I can measure.
It looks like its pretty stable

50HZ


150HZ


Wanted to do more, but I'm limited at what my testing machine can spin

Maybe advance is calculated from rising edge.

Yes, think it is

Updated my site with the info I have now, perhaps it gives you some new thoughts
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html

[Louis]

Can you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?

After a closer inspection, looks like its not that stable:

50Hz                                  150HZ
Pulse width +  17.0ms        Pulse width + 6,2ms
Pulse width -    770 us        Pulse width -  442us

The rest is looking relative equally to each other.

Does this mean we have a problem?

[tzr-v4]

Does this mean we have a problem?

No there is only solution 
I could do a firmware for rising edge to test.

I'll calculate the low pulse width in degree according to signal frequency of the pickup.
This frequency is double real RPM on the 3MA as it is waisted spark.
Maybe we will found the lobe length.

Olivier.

[jools]

OK so what is important is that the green signal (to IC pin) stays with only on pulse from 5v to 0v and back.

The incoming pickup IC signal stays as one pulse from 0 till 5V all the time

Can you check is green pulse with (time at 0v) is constant with regard to RPM?

Here I have made two snap shots (50HZ and 150HZ), with all the thinks I can measure.
It looks like its pretty stable

50HZ


150HZ


Wanted to do more, but I'm limited at what my testing machine can spin

Maybe advance is calculated from rising edge.

Yes, think it is

Updated my site with the info I have now, perhaps it gives you some new thoughts
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html

Hi Louis,

have you thought of looking whether a cheap woodworking router would be better for testing ?
They can spin up to 20,000 rpm and would be plenty powerful I would think ? You might need to design a better variable speed control though.

[Louis]

Hello Jools,

Yes, I have thought about them.
But they have a small axel, it would be difficult to hold the heavy Flywheel. (I think)

This type off engine has a relative thick axel which can hold a  bid off load, and they can be controlled perfectly.

It has the power to spin to about 11500rpm. (now you see how much energy the ignition cost. )
Max rpm I have is about 5000rpm with running ignition.

For now I will need to work with this.

When I come to testing the 3MA-10 CDI's, it will be better as it don't need a generator to generate the power for the CDI
It can just spin freely to its 11500rpm

[Louis]

It was me agents the Yamaha designers

Think have found something interesting, with could lead us to solving problems.

Have uploaded my site with my findings.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html

Conclusion;
Pin 22 is not a incoming signal, but a outgoing signal
Pin 13 is a incoming signal.

A picture says more than a 1000 words.


Its the outgoing IC signal (As we thought) vs Thyristor gate, not logical that its not the same.
(it moves wile rpm is rising, tricker it self in the middle of nowhere)

What do you guys think?
As it is still not my field off expertise. (in other words I could have it wrong )

[tzr-v4]

I've pickup the timing light Friday.
I'll read carefully your stuff tomorrow afternoon (got a tennis match tomorrow morning !!!)

I'll try to watch in replay the Japanese MotoGP too.

[Louis]

Have found the problem .
It seems that the oem IC is activating on the circuitboard a route witch allows the pickup signal to travel to pin 13
Ones the oem IC is removed that circuit is not activated and no signal is coming to pin 13.

I have follow the route from pin13 to the beloved T2333 and found out that this component is doing all the hard work.

Her you have some more info, scroll down to 13-10-14
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html

Olivier your firmware works great (perhaps some minor adjustments for the new values)
But other words perfect.
Here you have a quick run with your firm ware. (ignore the 21/22 degrees you see as I don't have the disk calibrated)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FfsZ3fFes0&feature=youtu.be

Busted it

[tzr-v4]

At work the video plugin crashes so I've not seen yet your video on experiment 

Restart firefox to initialize the video plug in can't wait to see the result 

We need to sort a clear document on wiring the ICP12 to the OEM board.

Was :
// Analogic To Digital
// ADC_YPVS    -> AN0   <=> Pin 36
// ADC_TPS     -> AN1   <=> Pin 35
// ADC_SPEED   -> AN2   <=> Pin 33
// Logical Outputs
// BLINK_LED  -> RB4
// STROBE_LED -> RB2
// RED_LED    -> RB5
// YPVS_OPEN  -> RA3    <=> Pin 5 and 8
// YPVS_CLOSE -> RA5    <=> Pin 6 and 7
// AIR_JET1   -> RC1    <=> Pin 27 or 26
// AIR_JET2   -> RC2    <=> Pin 26 or 27
// IGNITION   -> RC0    <=> Pin 22
// Interrupt
// PICKUP     -> RB0    <=> Pin 13

As I understand the ICP12 RB0 should not be connected to Pin 13 of the OEM IC but directly to T2333 at pin 4.

Maybe a jump wire from T2333 Pin4 to OEM IC Pin 13 could do.

[tzr-v4]

Here the TDR250 2YK OEM board.
Look very similar to 3MA so T2333 should be easy to find.