The IC inside the CDI

[whitenight639]

Excellent work guys,


I've got some Arduino and micro controller experience, How hard do you think it would be to use this Cdi in my RG 125? It has no TPS or power-valve atm but I could fit them. Is it feasible or worth it?

[tzr-v4]

I've just win a R1Z CDI on Yahoo for 17€

This will make a second CDI for testing.

[Louis]

Hello Olivier,

Its always handy to have enough CDI's when working on a project like this

Haven't done much, its still cold outside
Have figure it out how to bypass the Speedlimiter signal.
http://www.tzr3ma.com/speed-limiter-bypass.html

Currently working on the CDI, comparing the ignition signals (as its still no good)

My new setup to do this is
Have a complete working CDI, only disconnect pin22 from the Oem IC
Over the Oem IC i use the Icp-12 (Connected to pin13 and pin22 (pin 22 bottom circuit board as it is disconnected from the oem IC)
To measure both signals at the same time;)

If you have time, can you make a ignition curve (from the 0-1/8 curve closed curve) that i can upload on the Icp-12?
So i can compare the two together with my phuse generator and see where it is going wrong.

[iron chef]

Meaning this we know, isn't that bad


After knowing this, perhaps a pipe peeking at 11000rpm would be better.

Hi Louis,
Great thread, fantastic read and very very interesting, sorry to pull this back a few pages. I would like to know why you think a pipe that resonates at 11000rpm would best suit that curve? Would the resonance be better suited around 9000 so that as the ignition retards, the gases heat up and widen the pipes resonant range?

Cheers!

[tzr-v4]

If you have time, can you make a ignition curve (from the 0-1/8 curve closed curve) that i can upload on the Icp-12?
So i can compare the two together with my phase generator and see where it is going wrong.

Do you want the 0-1/8 throttle curve in light blue in the above picture ?

[Louis]

Do you want the 0-1/8 throttle curve in light blue in the above picture ?

Hello Olivier,

Yes if it is possible, like to have that curve so can upload it in the iCP12.
If all goes well I can monitor both signals at the same time (With the same pulse coming from the pulse generator)

Also noticed that there is a different in behavior when I use my electro running engine or if I use the pulse generator.

-With the electro running engine pulse, it seems that on the board it self more signals are given and the iCP12 reacts on that
-With the pulse generator, i need no high voltage spools to work (only on ignition is enough) the signals are more logical on the ICP12

It could be that the iCP12 is reacting on a other pulse somewhere on the circuitboard that make it go wrong.

That is what i want to test, if i can see both signals at the same time

[Louis]

Hi Louis,
Great thread, fantastic read and very very interesting, sorry to pull this back a few pages. I would like to know why you think a pipe that resonates at 11000rpm would best suit that curve? Would the resonance be better suited around 9000 so that as the ignition retards, the gases heat up and widen the pipes resonant range?

Cheers!

hello,

First to say I'm not a expert on this.

I only experimenting with my thoughts for the moment
More modern twostrokes uses 14degrees at peek power. (have been reading that cerval times)

A stock 3MA peeks at 10.000rpm and with the TPS in use at full throttle it is close to 14 degrees

To use the 1/8 curve (witch is more to a modern twostroke ignition curve) the 14 degrees is now between 10750 and 11000rpm.

Therefore i like to shorten a stock pipe to let it peek close to 11000rpm in order to gain the max out off the 1/8 curve.
Of course the stock PV curve will make it a bid non racy as it will open to soon as it is designed for the stock full throttle curve

Will see it on the dyno what it does. Could be interesting

[tzr-v4]

OK I'll try to post the ICP12 firmware tomorrow evening.

Olivier.

[tzr-v4]

Louis you have an email for the firmware

I've tried to reproduce the curve in your picture.
CDI advance is integer value in ° so orange curve is the firmware and blue the theoretical one.

[Louis]

Hello Olivier,

I have received your firmware and did some first tests

Test setup is as followed


-Left you see that I have removed the T2333 outside the circuitboard to invest further.
As all incoming and outgoing signals go through this component (adding own signals to)

-Right You see the iCp12 with the your curve, and connected at the oem IC (to use the same signals)

Have ordered some more T2333's to investigate them.


Some first results are surprisingly new.

After 96,92HZ both signals are equally, until Max rpm  (great work olivier)
-green Oem IC
-yellow iCP12 firmware


Below 96,92HZ thinks are not logical at all.
There is a big difference between Oem IC (outgoing signal) and iCP12 firmware
Examples:



Below 48,06Hz (logical will be 50Hz) the Oem IC ignition pulse disappear
Only the iCP12 firmware remains


As we know that pin22 from the Oem IC is giving the ignition pulse.

Pin22 (outgoing signal) goes to Pin 4 from the T2333, and than to a transistor witch switches the thyristor gate witch charges the Capacitor

But the T2333 gives a own signal on pin4 to, to remove that own made signal hade to disconnect pin 4 off the T2333
(in real live the outgoing signal from pin 22 goes to T2333 pin4, but is not loose it stays one connection T2333 only add a signal to it not create one)

Now a new discovery is that pin 23 an 24 (connected to each other) is giving a ignition pulse to only in the low revs
The route from Pin 23 and 24 goes to the T2333 to and is coming on Pin3.

Now my feeling is that the dancing seen in the low revs with the iCP12 has something to do with that.
Somehow the Oem circuit board is using the two signals.
The main will be the pin22 but on the low revs pin 23 and 24 are used to.

Olivier you see the low voltage the iCP-12 gives for his ignition point (less than 1V)
Perhaps i have destroyed one Icp-12 as I update the firmware as it is still connected to the Oem IC
Ore you have programmed a low outgoing voltage? or its something else

Do you know how much you have set the outgoing voltage?

Will do some more test to morrow

[tzr-v4]

Hi Louis

Long message... to give a good diagnostic need to be clear on some points

A)
ICP12 and OEM IC are using the same input signals :
- +5V
- GND
- Pickup signal (input for both)
      -> pin 13 on OEM
      -> pin B0 on ICP12

B)
The outputs of ICP12 and OEM are not simultaneously connected to the board.
- OEM pin 22
- ICP12 pin C0

On your oscilloscope captures, you are comparing
- OEM pin22 connected to T2333
- ICP12 pin C0 not connected to T2333

Can you check the level low or hight of OEM pin 23/24 when RPM are above 100Hz?

Maybe to use ICP12, we need the force the OEM pin 23/24 to a given state low or high.

My setup is less complicated as TDR250 CDI has no airjets or TPS or speed limit...

[Louis]

Hi Olivier,

A)
ICP12 and OEM IC are using the same input signals :
- +5V
- GND
- Pickup signal (input for both)
      -> pin 13 on OEM
      -> pin B0 on ICP12

This is correct

B)
The outputs of ICP12 and OEM are not simultaneously connected to the board.
- OEM pin 22
- ICP12 pin C0

On your oscilloscope captures, you are comparing
- OEM pin22 connected to T2333
- ICP12 pin C0 not connected to T2333

No, I measure it differently.
-Measure on pin 22 from the oem IC (cut loose from circuitboard, so only on pin22 from the IC)
-Measured directly on the iCP12 outgoing signal.

Can you check the level low or hight of OEM pin 23/24 when RPM are above 100Hz?

Currently working on that.

The signals coming from pin 23 and 24 are only there in the low revs. They disappear to when RPM increases.

Did you set the outgoing voltage pulse on a low level? Less than 1V or could that cause by something else?

[tzr-v4]

No, I measure it differently.
-Measure on pin 22 from the oem IC (cut loose from circuitboard, so only on pin22 from the IC)
-Measured directly on the iCP12 outgoing signal.

Both pins 22 OEM and C0 ICP12 are not connected to something (only the oscilloscope  )

Did you set the outgoing voltage pulse on a low level? Less than 1V or could that cause by something else?

No signal the ICP12 outgoing pin should be 0V for low state and 5V for high state.

The signals coming from pin 23 and 24 are only there in the low revs. They disappear to when RPM increases.

Does this means that 23 and 24 pins are set to 0V on high revs.

[Louis]

Jumping between workshop and pc at home

Both pins 22 OEM and C0 ICP12 are not connected to something (only the oscilloscope  )

Yes, they are only connected to the oscilloscope

Have it more precise now
From 92HZ and going down from there, the ICP12 does not follow the Oem IC

All above 92HZ till 420Hz the iCP12 follows the Oem IC perfectly (great work Olivier)

No signal the ICP12 outgoing pin should be 0V for low state and 5V for high state.

Found that problem
Probably destroyed a iCP12, used a new one and all is good
Made it now with a connector, so if i upload the firmware I disconnect the iCP12 from the CDI

Does this means that 23 and 24 pins are set to 0V on high revs.

Yes, its mass and the pulse is 5V
The extra pulse I'm talking about can not interfere with this.
Its there from low till about 170Hz then its gone.
Also the pulses are compact and do run equally with the pickup pulse (at that time)

Got some info for you and a request

From 92Hz the iCP12 firmware does not run equally with the oem IC
But this could be the firmware

My thoughts
Problem starts at 92Hz (92x60=5200/2=2760rpm) (2760RPM is the top off the curve)

Will it be easy to change the first part off your firmware curve?
If possible, can you make two new ones.?
-could you do the 19degrees till 2000rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?
-could you do the 19degrees till 1800rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?

Also can you make the iCP12 ignition pulse smaller in time?
The oem IC has a pulse length off about 150us all the time, it will be easier for me to compare.

Also noticed that the oem IC stops giving a ignition signal at exactly 60Hz it is gone below the 60HZ
(60x60=3600/2=1800rpm)
Think this is the part where the T2333 fits in using some of its signals

[tzr-v4]

Have it more precise now
All above 92HZ till 420Hz the iCP12 follows the Oem IC perfectly (great work Olivier)

OK so the curve in ICP12 is OK with 0- 1/8 throttle

Yes, its mass and the pulse is 5V
The extra pulse I'm talking about can not interfere with this.
Its there from low till about 170Hz then its gone.
Also the pulses are compact and do run equally with the pickup pulse (at that time)

Not clear to me right now 

Will it be easy to change the first part off your firmware curve?
If possible, can you make two new ones.?
-could you do the 19degrees till 2000rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?
-could you do the 19degrees till 1800rpm and than to 28 degrees at 3000rpm?

Can change the value every 500rpm so :
- curve a
     - 0 -> 2000rpm => 19°
     - 2500rpm => (19+28)/2 = 23° or 24°
     - 3000rpm -> 14000rpm => 28°
- curve b
     - 0 -> 1500rpm => 19°
     - 2000rpm => 19°+(28-19)/3 = 22°
     - 2500rpm => 19°+2*(28-19)/3 = 25°
     - 3000rpm -> 14000rpm => 28°