The IC inside the CDI

[tzr-v4]

I don't see why we get 2 ignitions falling edge at low rpm.

Will try to look at but difficult to reproduce here...

[tzr-v4]

Done some tests with good results 

Stick me new timing disk counter clockwise.
So 19° should more or less like in the picture. 


Here is a picture of disk during strobing


I'm using ICP12 with 36.5° of mechanical angle and 19° steady flat curve.

Not easy to do the testing alone 
TZR throttle locked in one position to try to have a stable rpm
Timing light in one hand and mobile phone in the other. 

Pretty stable through RPM change.

Will post a video later on. Download the file for playing it
http://ypvsbox.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Video_ICP12_36-5_19.mp4

[tzr-v4]

I should try this curve...
Stored in ICP12 code as Curve2 
Curve1 is flat 19°

A shame I've no country road nearby the garage 

[Louis]

Hello Olivier,

Not easy to do the testing alone 
TZR throttle locked in one position to try to have a stable rpm
Timing light in one hand and mobile phone in the other. 

But it worked great, a nice snap shot.

Pretty stable through RPM change.

Yes, the flat curves are stable on a solid RPM range.
I only had about one degree shifting from 1000rpm till 4000rpm.

The problem that I have now with the new curve firmware that it is dancing.
Also on the rpm where it should be steady like the 800rpm at +/-20 degrees.

I'm planning to measure now on the iCP12 to see if some mass or voltage is dropping/pulsing

Stored in ICP12 code as Curve2 
Curve1 is flat 19°

That is new, sounds like a great option

[Louis]

Olivier,

Think I found the problem, could be a big one.
Don't know if the TDR CDI does the same, but here it goes.

We know the 3MA CDI still works when no IC is placed, at first i thought this is no big problem but now thinks changed

You see here a snap shot if the 3MA CDI without no IC


Here you see a snap shot with Olivier firmware (19 flat 33 mechanical)
You see the CDI ignition pulse is still there, but now with Olivier firmware pulse in frond of it



The only way to take away the CDI ignition point is the give pin three on the T2333 a mass signal (soldered black wire witch i can give mass)


Then only the firmware off Olivier is active, but it generates on the T2333 a pulse that is taken over to the pickup signal
So sadly the ignition point is always the same. in all RPM range


Thinking off two thinks now
1) Or we have to let the firm ware work together with the CDI signal (signal somewhere from on the board)
2) Or we have to cut off that signal and let the iCP12 directly work in the thyristor. (or something close to that)

Now we know that the CDI ignition is always there, measurement in the parts are getting more logical to.
The sometimes strange extra pulse seen on measurement is nothing more than Olivier firmware copied over the CDI signal.
Firmware testing 36 static (example)


Now we know


Still trying to work thinks out

[tzr-v4]

Olivier,

Think I found the problem, could be a big one.
Don't know if the TDR CDI does the same, but here it goes.

We know the 3MA CDI still works when no IC is placed, at first i thought this is no big problem but now thinks changed

You see here a snap shot if the 3MA CDI without no IC

I'll try to handle this slowly 

Is this a capture when pin13 is directly connected to pin22 ?

[Louis]

Is this a capture when pin13 is directly connected to pin22 ?

No, its the measurement without no IC placed.
Measured on Pin 13 (before diode) and pin Pin 22 ignition.


I have followed the whole route that pin4 off the T2333 travels to the Thyristor gate.
(it only cam across one transistor, and a couple off resistors)

I'm thinking now that the T2333 is generating this so called ''CDI Pulse''
Want to remove the T2333 and connect the iCP12 on pin 4 and 6.
From what i can see it rules out the CDI pulse.

This plan needs some investigation

[tzr-v4]

Do you mean that CDI is firing the ignition without the IC ?

I thought that you have connected directly the input from the pickup (pin13) to the Ignition signal (output) on pin22.

[Louis]

Do you mean that CDI is firing the ignition without the IC ?

Yes, it does.
Would like to know if the TDR CDI does the same?

I thought that you have connected directly the input from the pickup (pin13) to the Ignition signal (output) on pin22.

Yes don that ones, it gave the static angular off about 36 a 37 degrees

[tzr-v4]

Here you see a snap shot with Olivier firmware (19 flat 33 mechanical)
You see the CDI ignition pulse is still there, but now with Olivier firmware pulse in frond of it

Louis,

How do you know that ignition is fired on the second rising edge and not the first one from my firmware ?

I've got a day off tomorrow so I'll try to escape from house to the garage 

[Louis]

How do you know that ignition is fired on the second rising edge and not the first one from my firmware ?

It does fire on your pulse
But the CDI pulse stays all the time, so you can't go lower than that 19 degrees.

And also the scope light seems to be weird, like its firing two times in one ignition pulse.

Think by removing the T2333, i have emulated that CDI pulse and only your firmware would run
(like putting pin 3 from the T2333 to mass)

[Louis]

Perhaps this shows better, your firmware curve on the iCP12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhVY25EtgH0&feature=youtu.be

You see start and end its walking away but the CDI pulse is always staying

[tzr-v4]

Maybe my firmware needs to keep the ignition signal at low level (0v) for a longer time.
Actually low time is 0.4ms

I could send you a new firmware:
- 36.5° mechanical angle
- 19° flat curve
- long low state => 1ms or more.

Can you make a video with OEM IC of same signals :
- pickup
- ignition

It seems that pickup rising edge is pulling ignition signal to 0V for a given time.
Is this time constant or linked to RPM (frequency).

[Louis]

You mean Making the width off you pulse wider so it over rules the CDI Pulse.
Could be nice to try to see if it is giving a better results.
Can you make it much longer Like four times what it is now (1,6ms) or more (so it definitely rules out the CDI Pulse)

That could work in the low revs going from 19 degrees to 30 degrees, but at higher RPM you should drop below 19 and go to 14 till 5 etc
But the CDI Pulse wont let you becouse it is set on 19 degrees.

There fore I like to remove that strange CDI Pulse and only use the pickup signal and your ignition signal

[tzr-v4]

The 19° advance is obtained by timing between :
- the falling edge of pickup signal
- the falling edge of ignition signal.

This time (in s) is equivalent to 36.5°-19° =  17.5° associated with rotation speed in °/s.

The time is decreasing while RPM is increasing but ° stays at a constant value.

I'll do a 2ms long ignition signal.