3xv: Project Phoenix

[ybk]

I dont think it's too serious really, I would use it as is..  Any filler you use will probably just end up in the motor.

[casal-fan]

Any filler you use will probably just end up in the motor.

Suppose so too, I?ve tryed it at some point with petrol resistent treebond, dryed and cured by the book - washed away.

Think I have a set of cages laying around somewhere... but the cost of sending to USA would perhaps be too much...

Very nice rebuild

[Steveog]

Most appreciated, guys:

Karl - Boyesen reeds are a two stage design with the stiffer of the two reeds covering the area where the pitting has taken place. (See Attachment. No I'm not getting a commission from Boyesen)  I looked with a magnifier and a cannot see any spots what would leak until the pressure of the engine opens the stiffer reed. Think I'll avoid any attempt at sealing those tiny pits. I don't believe they were all caused by the crank letting go and the possibility of extra junk flying around inside my brand new engine internals is a bit frightening. The reed block on the RH cylinder showed similar wear (without shrapnel), but also was not showing any spots that could leak before thicker reeds would opening. 

Casual - Sending me extra reed cages is a very generous offer. However, with YBK's advice, as well as your experience, left me convinced to just carry on at this point. Replacing the reed cages (later) would be relatively easy compared to opening the motor.

Many thanks to you both for keeping up with my project. I've got a new problem that is absolutely crucial. The solution seems easy, but may require a machine shop. I'll take some pics for opinions.
 

[Steveog]

I started to rebuild the swing-arm and rear suspension. If you remember, the swinger's bearings and pivot shaft bushing were completely junked by water and rust. It took three days of Kroil, heat and hammering to free the swing-arm. It has since been sand-blasted and power-coated.

Big Problem: When I attempted to check the fit of the new bearings in preparation for cleaning out the pivot channel, it was obvious that the bearings I had purchased were about 1.5 mm too wide on the OD. The ID was perfect. So, figuring I had ordered the wrong size from a bearing company, I bit the bullet and purchased a new set of bearings from my Yamaha dealer. The new Yamaha bearings were exactly the same IKO 2525Z, as I had purchased from the bearing shop. WTF?.

The picture shows WTF. The outer bearing shells had molecularly bonded to the aluminum of swing arm pivot channel on both side. You can clearly see where the needles had embedded into the outer shell. When I broke out the old bearing, only the needles and cage came out. I didn't think it all out at the time. Too busy with the engine.

I don't have the tools to cut the bearing shells and chisel them out. Bearing steel is about as hard a steel gets. If there is a DIY way to remove the bearing shells, please offer your advice. If I need a machine shop, time to sell blood.

Thanks in advance.

[SeaR1ck]

Notch it cut through the race carefully and curl it up towards the inside and try to pull it out ?

[Warwick]

You should be able to draw them out with a bearing puller or knock them out with a hammer and long drift from the other side with care, Steve. Heat and/or penetrating oil will help. The bearing shell is steel and the arm aluminium so it should move reasonably easily with enough persuasion. But they are a very tight press fit of course. Take care not to damage the inner arm if using a drift. 

If you'd rather cut them to split and chisel out you could try a dremmel type mini-grinder with a little cutting disc maybe?

I used the heat and hammer & long drift method when I removed some recently, but my bearings were in one piece which might have made it a little bit easier? 

[Steveog]

Warwick - I'll give it a go. I have a blind bearing puller. Tempted to try Kroil, heat and puller first. No way to damage the swinger with that technique, Yes?

Rick - I considered cutting the bearing parallel to the swinger cavity. But, how? The bearing steel is f'ing bonded to the swinger's aluminum. Seems I'd need a 90 degree Dremel and diamond attachment. Perhaps a diamond hack-saw blade. What would you use to cut the bearing steel?

Thanks, gentlemen. It seems as though this swing-arm is a demon that just won't die. Maybe I need an exorcist.

The good news is I have new pivot bearings, roller thrust bearings and bushing ready to go. The pivot shaft cleaned up nicely.

Are these swing arm bearing failures common to a 3xv? My problem is a great bike, obviously suffering years of neglect. But, what about bikes that have been rebuilt? Should I return/sell the extra bearing set or keep them, as I would an extra set of Wossners?

Bluntly. I won?t deal with anything in the next month, except getting my bike back on the track. So, thanks again to you both for quick, smart and usable advise.

[ybk]

You can try the washer cut in half method Andy used?

[Steveog]

Thanks, Karl. It may come to that. I can also mod-up a rig to use a hydraulic jack to push the bearings race out through the swing-arm channel.

Lots of options. Thanks for reminding me of Andy's creativity.

I don't believe I can express how the steel and aluminum have become one over the years. It's not as if I'm trying to break loose two separate components.

It may take a 33mm boring of the swinger. Let's hope not.

As always. Your input and concern for my project are most appreciated.

Steve

[Warwick]

Steve. other than the crust of rust at the ends, it's unlikely that the bearing shell will have 'bonded' in any significant way to the arm along its entire length as the arm and the shell are different materials. Once you get it moving it should come out reasonably easily, but some pretty significant force/pressure will be required to move it. If you have a hydraulic press and can rig that up for use it will push them out easily. If you don't feel confident tackling it yourself, a good local garage/workshop should be able to do it for just a few $s - it should be half an hours work or less with the right tools.

I wouldn't have given you duff bearing numbers, Steve... . I'd return the more expensive pair if I could, personally. As you've seen, the ones in the Yamaha bag are the same as the off-the-shelf IKOs.

Warming the arm and freezing the new bearings will help with fitting. You can tap them in carefully, but a DIY puller made from threaded rod and suitable washers will pull them in with less violence/risk of damage.

With normal use and maintenance, and assuming the end cap seals are good, and the sleeve bush surfaces flawless, the new bearings should be good for many years of use.

Forgot to mention earlier that the reed blocks look usable to me. Not perfect of course, but an easy replacement later if you do find that they give any problems  .       

[Hoatso]

Years ago, I would replace thin stainless steel reeds with the dual Boyeson reeds. This would make the screws too short. Maybe they come with longer screws now, but if they don?t, be sure to get longer ones and Loctite them so they don?t get sucked through your engine and blown out the exhaust.

I bead blasted some cases, then sprayed them with clear lacquer to keep them from oxidizing. It worked well.

[Cruising-Blue]

Probably a bit late to advise as you've lost the inner race, but I used a slide-hammer type expanding bearing puller tool for removal and applied plenty of heat from an electric heat gun beforehand..don't be mean with the heat!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9pc-Inner-Bearing-Blind-Hole-Remover-Extractor-Puller-Pilot-Bushes-Housing-Kit/123645300215?epid=16021413345&hash=item1cc9d58df7:g:jZoAAOSwvoNbjlBv

Refitted with this tool, however, I think I purchased some longer threaded rod, as the supplied rod is too short for the swing arm.  Again, plenty of heat without scorching the paint and a bit of lubrication..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Motorcycle-Bike-Universal-Swing-Arm-Needle-Bearing-Tool-MS049-/311267010737?hash=item4878f5a8b1

[Steveog]

Great stuff gents. Thanks for all the support and ideas.

Warwick - Please don't think I was blaming you for telling me which bearings to buy. I just didn't think it all out when I discovered they didn't fit. I also only really looked at the opposite side of the swinger. The pic was taken yesterday after I had checked both sides. My sincere apologies if you were somehow insulted. There is no way I would be this far into this bike without your continued advice. The Yam bearings were actually cheaper, so I'll return the set from the bearing shop.

Now, I don't wish to dispute your expertise on this subject, but steel and aluminum can bond in a process called Galvanic corrosion which is the transfer of electrons from one material (anode) to another (cathode). For this to take place, an electrolyte must be present. (In my case a liquid that aids in the process of electron transfer between the two metals.) Water is a superior electrolyte. As you can see in the pic, plenty of water had worked its way past the swinger's end cap/seal over the years. The right side end cap/seal was buggered. Here's the source of my info: https://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/blog/2017/09/15/stainless-steel-and-aluminum/

All this science stuff is quite irrelevant now, but your ideas for breaking the bearing race free and then fitment of new bearings are good solutions. I just hope the steel from the bearing shell all comes out, clean. Because I have a bearing removal hammer set, I'll probably start with that along with penetrating oil and heat. The hydraulic solution will require some rigging. A machine shop will be a last resort, as I now know several of you have been able to do this on your own.

No issues on not responding to the reed cage question. I just figured the other answers to that question had covered your opinion. Good to hear you indeed agree for me to proceed, pending future maintenance if needed.

Hoatso - I've mounted the Boyesen reeds and there was less purchase between the dual reeds, stopper and reed cage mounting holes, but enough that I have confidence its all good. Yes. Blue Loctite. Careful to not get any between the reeds. The seal looks good under the magnifier. A clear coat on that "clean" engine would be a good idea. Must clean and wash it off first. I've been focused on a paying project this past week. Gotta get the money to pay for all this, Yes?

Cruise - The bearing puller/hammer did the job on all the blind bearing I pulled from the engine. As I told Warwick, that is where I will start. In fact, the hammer and catch device could be used in reverse. pushing, rather than pulling. I'll know if that works, soon. Thanks for the link to a tool built specifically to install swing-arm bearings. If the heat/cold, threaded rod/washer idea isn't sufficient, you've given me a direct way to source a specific tool.

The good news is that the lip of the bearing shell will give the bearing removal tool something to grab onto. The same is true if I have to push the bearing out through the swing arm pivot cavity.

I'm off to the Shop. Will report back once the bearing shell is clear.

Again, thanks to all.

[Steveog]

I got one of the bearing races out. It wasn't pretty, but it was effective and I didn't break anything.

Warwick - You were right, I could not find any evidence of galvanic corrosion (except that originally seen between the needles,pivot shaft bushing and out bearing race). There was however, a very thin secondary layer of something left behind once I freed the bearing shell. You can see it in pic 005.

In approaching the technique using Kroil, heat and bearing puller, there was no space to apply the Kroil. As it was, I didn't believe it would have a chance to penetrate between steel and aluminum this week. So using a tiny flat-nose screwdriver head, I opened up a few holes around the rim of swinger cavity. I didn't expect it to work quickly, but applied propane flame directly to the bearing shell and a heat gun to the exterior aluminum. Surprisingly the bearing puller tore out a portion of the shell, but wouldn't pull it out. So, using a chisel I opened the shell and twisted it out. Not very elegant, but the results are a round swinger cavity with the same ID as stock.

After cleaning out the thin film in the cavity with a Dremel, I did a test fit with a new bearing. Perfect. It will require a press-fit, but want to scrub out the channel before doing that.

On the other side, the bearing shell was so tightly compressed to the swing-arm that when trying the to create pockets for the Kroil, small pieces of the shell just broke away.

This time I poured the Kroil down the pivot cavity from the back side. There's a bit of bearing lip there, hoping by letting it soak overnight it will come out without needing a chisel. With one side open now, I'm going to use the bearing puller head and push it and the shell out from the bottom with my hydraulic jack. I suppose that would have worked, originally. Too bad I'm only thinking of it now. Shit.

I'm not proud of my craftsmanship, but offer that this solution works. Hoping no others have a swing arm pivot that was in such bad shape. I still don't know how the bike was even ridable, let alone handle better than anything I had ever experienced on two wheels.

Here's some pics from this afternoon's adventure.

Thanks to all.

[Steveog]

A bath of Kroil, over-night patience, heat and the hydraulic jack was a much better solution for the right side. See pics.

I built the rig first, used propane heat directed as evenly as possible at the steel bearing surface, quickly inserted the blind bearing puller (pic_001), then using the rusted bushing shaft as a drift, cranked up the jack pushing the bearing out.

It took some finessing of the tie-downs to properly apply the needed force, but after about half an hour of dicking with the set-up, the bearing shell parted its 28 year relationship with the swinger. Quite satisfying.

Did quick cleanup of the cavity, but still need a stiff wire brush attachment for a drill to clean out all the crud buried in the pivot channel.

Plan on using a heat gun, frozen bearings and simple washer/threaded rod-style puller to install new bearings.

I can now assemble the chassis. Still waiting on sprockets and three engine bearings.

Thanks to all who gave me hints and tips for this potential deal-breaker.