3xv: Project Phoenix

[busa1300]

Hmmmm...
Most of this TZR stuff is still a bit new to me, but...
Looking at what you are showing, I would say that you are putting the plate between the cylinder and the flange.
If this is correct, I dont see how that is going to hold down the larger section...it would be just like bolting it down with no plate.
If you were to put the plate over the flange in some manner, then that would keep it held down to some degree.
But I would worry about the possibility of it leaking again....which could suck air in as well? ....Possibly causing it to lean out and....?
Putting the plate between the cylinder and flange also causes more of a gap where the flange is supposed to meet the cylinder to seal.

This is just my observation.....From a long term RGV owner

[Warwick]

The flange needs welding or replacing really, Steve, but you might achieve a reasonably secure fix for the time being by drilling parallel through the two parts, tapping the larger part and using a couple of small screws to hold it together - maybe with a bit of JB weld or similar too?

Dan's right about the gasket situation, Just use high temp sealant or cut some thin heat resistant gasket material rings with those flanges. Cutting similar 'plates'  from good gasket material to fit between the flange part and cylinder face to take up any void there puts less stress on the 'arms' of the flange when you tighten it all up.   

[Martin77]

I guess all you can do is try it.. see how it feels and just be aware it may not last the day if you decide to use it. Only you can make that decision... you'll probably hear it if it starts to leak a lot, and if it does, stop riding as it can cause problems.

Are there some other workshops in Warrick county that could weld it sooner?

[maccas]

Pic as promised. They can't crack when fitted like this.

Dan

[Steveog]

Busa - Sorry I didn't pick up your note, earlier. Your absolutely right. Just the plate doesn't support anything. I was going to use safety wire to hold down the bigger chunk. I built that plate as a spacer to take stress off of the broken pieces before Dan pointed out there should be no gasket at all for the DFR flange.

Fortunately, Boonville, is to southern Indiana as Banbury is to the UK. HA. Only on a much smaller scale. Motorsports specialists of all sorts. Mostly car guys, but nationally famous Top Guns. After a few phone calls, I got in touch with THE welding Guru of the group. He also builds race engines for NASCAR and NHRA Drag Racing. He took the job "on-call". The flange is now welded up solid.

Yes, Martin. Boonville is in Warwick, Co.

Thanks for you comment, Busa. Glad I can move forward with a proper fix.

Steve

[Martin77]

Excellent! every workshop needs a girly poster/calendar*, even the best ones..

(*except mine cos I support feminism)

[Steveog]

HA. Thanks. Cheryl Teague is very tame compared to some shops I've seen.

I'll post a pic of the finished flange once I'm off my phone.

Steve

Added later that afternoon: Cleaned up the flange mating surface with Dremel, hand files and mounted it on the bike. Grateful to get this done today. I don't believe in luck, but when circumstances turns toward you on this level, I could be convinced. Turns out the machinist/welder/R&D guru trained the guy I usually use.

[Warwick]

That looks great, Steve! Always better to do the job properly, and your man certainly did a solid job on that. And you've finished it off perfectly too. Great stuff!   

[Steveog]

As always, your support and kind words are most appreciated, Warwick. Finding this guy shocked the Hell out of me, but it also felt as if I'd discovered a secret society in a little town of about 3000. His back-story is a movie.

Gotta give Martin a shout for asking an obvious, but motivating question.

Just a couple of loose ends to button-up and I'm now looking forward to a start-up. Feel good about making that track day.

Enjoy your Sunday.

Steve

[Steveog]

My only minor concern with the water pump exit pvc tube, is if it has a straight surface without a little ridge, it might be a bit 'smooth' for the hose to grip onto. I guess it's tapered a bit which will help hold it?

Soon be time for testing again

I finished up the engine today and outside some high temp exhaust O-Rings, its ready for a test start. I'll get those in the morning. Only a week late, but I'm my only client. I can't fire me.

Martin was right about that PVC not being a good solution. The new HD, Silicone Rad hose was a tight fit, but when tightening with appropriate silicone clamps, the pressure made hose crawl way from impeller input. Not good. Tried this a couple of times. No joy.

After removing the plastic shim, the hose tightened up around the stock piece nicely. Those clamps don't have the standard thread-divots of stock hose clamps (they're smooth at the contact point), so the new hose wasn't torn.

I pulled on it with my weight and legs braced on the bike. Now, I'm not that strong, but my overall size, plus leg muscles put at a lot of torque into the test. Everything was solid. I'm going with this configuration.

Thanks, Martin...and all who've offers advice and help.

Steve

[Steveog]

Reattaching the expansion chambers was real test. Important tip for others: Install the lower pipe, first. Used RTV and O-ring inside the pipes mouth. Had to get on my back to put tension on the springs. No. I don't have a build stand, but its on my wish list.

So, added distilled water, Yamlaube (10W-40), built-up a gravity feed tank with 110 Leaded/Castrol A-747 (25:1) then parked the bike at to door of my shop...pipes facing out and gave her a kick or six. Nothing. DUH. Turn on the fuel feed. Nervous? About 6 more kicks on choke and she coughed. One more. Complete Joy. I thought. The lower cylinder's exhaust was smoking, but the upper wasn't. Then it back-fired. Immediate shut down..

Figuring a bad plug (still using the plugs from the heat-seize in August) I started to swap them out. The upper was dry. The lower oily, as expected. But, the real problem happened somewhere during the build, I had knocked the bladed wire from the upper cylinder coil off its connection. Big Rush.

Two more kicks. No choke. Welcome to fall. Responded to throttle, eagerly. Sounded healthy. Didn't take her past 7K nor a full heat cycle, but did get it to 45C. Stopped. Personally, worn Out. Emotionally drained. Adrenaline is a Hell of a Drug.

Weather here should be great over the next week. Hope to ride it by Wednesday. Track day is scheduled to be about 10 degrees cooler than Atlanta. I don't plan any jetting changes to the mains. The mid-range may take care of itself with a bit of fiddling with the air jets. The idle is great where it is, now.

I know I'm not done nor am I over-confident. Just play it through.

Thanks for everyone's help and support.

Steve

[Warwick]

Sounds fine, Steve. Good to be back up and running, eh?

As a point of interest, your intake 'downpipe' for the lower cyl airbox is an SP part. The R/RS part doesn't have the little 'resonator chamber' or whatever it is attached to the side. I've always assumed that on the early SP models with the big 36mm carbs that the little chamber was fitted as some kind of intake pulse smoother or something? Anyway, as yours has the smaller 28mm R carbs, it might be worth removing the little chamber (It's just a push fit into a rubber grommet) and sealing the hole that is left in order to mimic the stock R intake pipe - just as an experiment to see if it makes any difference to lower rpm running if nothing else?   

[SeaR1ck]

Or if he wants he could trade me for the stock R one i have for it.

[Steveog]

Thanks for the comments, gents.

Warwick. Yes. Hearing her fire up was a great relief and exhilarating moment. An experience I cannot replicate by simply riding. They're both so different, but I guess that's part of the magic of this 2T.

If you remember, my bike also came with an SP upper air box. Hmmm.

It would be interesting to test removing that resonator chamber on the lower carbs inlet. Thanks for the heads up. Anything to clean up the low to mid-range would be very helpful. Plus, just a bit less clutter.

What a weird collection of original parts. My bike came with no speed sensor on the speedo, DFR pipes and the SP air intake goodies. WTF. It's as though it were built in a shop with a butt-load of TZR parts. No fingers will be pointed here. HA.

Rick - Thanks for the offer, but as my bike becomes less of an "R" and more of a "custom-something", I'll just test Warwick's idea with a plug. Thanks for all of your continuing input. I'm now closer to the track bike you first recommended over a year ago.

Tomorrow: More heat-cycles, reprogram the Zeel for PV and clean-up the disaster that has become my shop.

You know I appreciate you and all who have helped get me to a rewarding day with this bike.

Steve

[Steveog]

Dan's right about the gasket situation, Just use high temp sealant or cut some thin heat resistant gasket material rings with those flanges. Cutting similar 'plates'  from good gasket material to fit between the flange part and cylinder face to take up any void there puts less stress on the 'arms' of the flange when you tighten it all up.   

The bike has been through start-up and four heat cycles on the stands. Had hopes of riding it today. But, this morning I noticed two very small black splotches on my shop floor. Traced both leaks to the flanges. Interestingly, the cylinder has a spot at the bottom of the opening to the exhaust that opens completely to the outside. So, when the flange is fitted, there is an obvious spot to leak.

I'm guessing Warwick was correct in suggesting I cut some thin gasket material to seal the flange. The inner ring on the flange is letting exhaust gases/oil to pass through to the escape through that small cut-out in the cylinder. The evidence of the oil on this inner ring was obvious, once I got the upper flange off.

My question: Should I cut the 1mm gasket material to fit only the inner ring? It seems if I cut material for the outer section, too there would still be a gap inside the cylinder where the ring joins the cylinder.

Any guidance would help, as I now need to let the sealant set up overnight before starting her up. I've got other stuff to do and am now confident it will run, but this is my last night to fix this before test riding and tuning.

Thanks

Steve