3xv: Project Phoenix

[maccas]

I'm surprised it's leaking Steve! Mine have been running like that for 5 years and don't leak from that joint. Did you put plenty of sealant on the round face of the flange?

Gasket paper might work but you'll need to find something that is upto the temperature.

Dan

[Steveog]

Thanks for your quick response, Dan. I used plenty of sealant, a bit more than I would have to seal the engine cases. I have the feeling that I may have not allowed it to cure long enough, originally. Once the seal was broken...well it was going to continue to leak. Make sense?

I'll test fit the repaired flange to be sure it seats. It only leaked at the internal ring, then out the at opening in the cylinder.

I only have normal paper gaskets in hand. Sounds as if that's not a good plan. I'll carefully re-seal the flange and allow it to properly cure.

Back to work.

My Best

Steve

[Warwick]

If using suitable gasket material you need to do the ring bit to make the seal between the the face of the flange and the exhaust outlet inner ring. The other plate gasket on the outside of the cylinder takes up any void then left twixt the face of the flange arms and face of the cylinder. It's more hassle than using sealant though, and, as Dan notes, the sealant should really do the trick well enough if all the faces are good and it's good sealant etc.   

[Steveog]

That makes sense, Warwick. Believe I've isolated my problem. "Being too sparing with RTV." This stuff is made by J&B and the best Hi-Temp stuff they make.

I also didn't let it set-up long enough.

Thanks for your getting me your opinion, so quickly. I'm onto the second cylinder, now. No gaskets, just sealant.

I'm beginning to understand why the bike came with a small/thin brass gasket that sat between the flange and the cylinder. Easy. Less messy. Cop-out. Destined to cost me money.

All good. I can get a lot of other stuff done today.

Steve

[bulldogboy]

Youve made me want to re-examine the mounting of my pipes now.When i first got it the martin 77 pipes were blowing oil out of the flange collar, so i took them off and cleaned everything up, and replaced the pipes and the gasket using high temp sealant, i then sealed the flange collar around the pipe.It cured the problem, but i will now remove them again and take out the copper gasket and then re-seal with just sealant ,i think i was a bit stingy with the sealant, around the gap between the pipe and flange collar.

[Steveog]

Bulldog. Martin has said that he never uses O-Rings or gaskets, only RTV on his own exhaust systems.

After a final heat cycle this morning, no leaks here. In fact, I took her out for a first ride. Still no leaks.

A big shout to Dan M. and Phil M. for their advice on Zeel PV programming. Of course, there are many here who have helped me with advice and good words, but the Zeel was a big variable for me.

The bike is still very fresh, but idles at a steady 1300, pulls clean from from the bottom. The mid-range is back. Strong from 5000 with a smooth, but noticeable surge at 7K and kept pulling to 11K. Once warm (60C), I stuck in in fourth gear, gave it full throttle at 2K. No hiccups only smooth power to 10K. It wheelied at 7K after WOT pull from 3K. Its never pulled the front wheel off the ground before this morning. To say I was happy with the results of the last 5 weeks work is an understatement.

Going to button it up this afternoon and run it to 12K.

Back to the exhaust system. I gotta believe that a properly sealed system is part of the performance boost. We all know how 2T's make power, Yes?

Good luck to you.

Steve

[bulldogboy]

 , cheers Steve, yes i will just use sealant this time round and sack off the gasket, RTV on order, glad to hear your back on track, did you use the standard map for the zeel or have you tweaked it? I will go down the same route when my bank balance recovers.It seems you have released the power hidden in the engine wilth the programable ignition, nice one

[Martin77]

Just a note on my pipes Bulldogboy, my flanges need the copper gasket as they are flat on that face. If you look at the cylinder, the outer face has a cut out at the bottom, which won't be sealed without the gasket in place.

The Japanese pipes have a raised section which fits into where the gasket sits, which does the sealing.

The sliding fit needs a decent amount of sealant in to help seal, and let it set before starting. And don't overtighten the flange nuts, it can distort them a little and make the flange bow. If you got them sealing ok with the sealant, then that's it.. job done.

Hope that helps clarify! They must be a few years old now, I've not made any 3XV pipes for a while..




Meanwhile.. all sounds good so far Steve!

[Steveog]

Bulldog. Thanks.

I just followed good advice. I took Phil M's suggestion and used the Zeel the way it came. The only programming was turning off the TPS and setting the PV's to open at 7000 and be fully open at 10,000 rpm. I set the rev limiter to 12.5K. These settings were recommended by Dan M.

Phil generously sent me a variety of programs that I have yet to try. The engine was under construction too long.

One thing I forgot, I unplugged the VAJ's, which means only the center jet is feeding the engine.

Remember, mine is a track bike, if you want to street ride my tuning might be OK, but don't copy anyone's settings. All these bikes are different enough, go slowly and start rich.

Back to it. Packing up tomorrow.

Steve

[Steveog]

Thanks Martin. Yes. This thing has been unleashed. Great job on the three heads and two cylinders.

It really sings now.

Steve

Good to clarify my statements about your 3xv pipes for Bulldog.

[bulldogboy]

Yes thanks alot for clarifying that martin,even in my ignorance i pretty much did do that, but i think i was a bit stingy on sealing the gap between the pipe and the flange collar.I was also worried about sealant squidging in the exhaust port, but i spose the copper gasket helps prevent that?Yes i spose they are a few years old now ,how come you stopped making the 3xv pipes?Steve , i will hopefully just upgrade ignition and pipes, will have to take advice on some good off the shelf pipes for max gains, if im only doing those 2 mods.Just want to make no2 "a bit quicker" Phils old bike ( no 1) Is the full fat version will take advice from those more knowledgeable than me nearer the time, hope your good progress continues

[Martin77]

I would fit the manifold, then if any excess is squidged inside, you can wipe it smooth, then put sealant on the end of the pipe and slide it in. Putting it on the pipe minimises how much gets pushed inwards. Should be fine..

[bulldogboy]

Good tips Martin thank you ,will follow that method for sure

[Steveog]

It's always something. Twisting safety wire, double checking the crucial torque setting, checking for leaks then finally buttoning up the faring.

Originally, intended for TZ style air boxes and open carbs, my faring has internal air channels routing air from those external scoops seen on almost all TZR's.

If you remember, I installed a heavy-duty radiator hose in place of a stock hose that had failed and caused an expensive "sacrifice at the alter of speed"*.

Well, the air channel wouldn't allow clearance of the hose. Take it apart, break out the Dremel, breath in some fiber glass and finish the job.

Barring some mystery sponsor discovering me this weekend, this will be my last Track Day of 2019.

Many thanks to all on this Forum who have helped. You're the best friends I've never meet.

Steve

*Warwick. Loved that quote. Had to use.

[Steveog]

With today's Track Day at Putnam Park in Meridian, Indiana/USA, Project Phoenix has reached its logical conclusion. This all started due to a catastrophic engine failure on September 11, 2018.

The dream of "Project Phoenix" was to not only rebuild the 3xv1 engine to a much higher spec version of itself, but also to complete a "full, bolts-up" resurrection of the bike into a competitive track machine. That has been realized. The History of the "how" is all in this thread. The names of those who have helped, encouraged and supported this effort are clearly listed. I will always be grateful to you gentlemen.

All of us who are devoted to these unique machines won a major victory today on a track that does not exclusively favor precise-scalpel sharp handling. Putnam is a fairly fast track. We were able to be competitive with bikes making 3-4 times the HP and a wide assortment of "Intermediate", but highly skilled riders....most of whom knew this track far better than I did. That doesn't mean we could pass them, but running WITH this class of riders and bikes was the ultimate goal.

Based only on straight-line performance, the bigger bike were only passing, easily, at the end of the straight sections. Only my lack of confidence and specific track experience was the deciding factor. The bike was right. Making power from 5000-12.5K rpm meant I was no longer fighting the gear box, as was the case in Atlanta. With new tyres in the last two sessions, she was again precise and sharp, but now with an attitude. Stepping out a bit on the fastest sweepers.

This bike seams very sensitive to environmental conditions. We went from a cool morning to 31.6C/75% Humidity. A bit of adjustment on the idle setting and air screw kept things under control.

Finally, we stayed upright and on the track all day. Several in this class took a few off-road excursions. A 28 year old bike was running with modern computerized bikes.

Track Day riding is not racing. If it were, we finished almost last. But, do any of us really care? The point is our love for this bike, it engine's format and knowing we can actually reach in to have a contact with the soul of the machine is something few of the 4T Hyper-bike riders will ever understand.

I'm far from finished with this bike. But, Phoenix has Risen. Time for a new chapter.

Thanks

Steve

The picture shows what we saw when we first arrived. It passed with a 5 minute moment of cool breeze.