3xv: Project Phoenix

[Warwick]

Does it give dimensions on the race surface? Or just the bearing number for that manufacture.

Different manufacturers seem to use their own variations of a generic bearing code system sometimes - google 'bearing codes' for plenty of guides. In the case of the IKO bearing above, the '1212' bit refers to the internal diameter (12mm) and the depth (12mm) - OD is 18mm on those bearings. Yamaha seem to have used a lot of IKO bearings on the 3XV  . 

[Steveog]

I throw myself on the mercy of the court. There's no way the shift shaft has 2mm slop, sorry for wasting time by guessing. That said, there is free-play, which seems excessive to me, but am open to correcting my opinion.

The angle from above was taken with a stable camera. The angle with the measuring tape has a bit of camera movement, but should provide the demo I was after.

Warwick. Obviously, no seal was in place, so your suggestion that a seal might tighten-up the shaft's action seems on-target. The shaft also might be moving enough to cause an early seal failure. Also, thanks for explaining the bearing codes. Good new info.

I have a bearing removal kit, warned my wife I might need the oven and I will replace the counter-shaft bearing and seal. Should I go for this shift-shaft bearing, too?

Thanks to all.

Steve

[ybk]

^^ That play is normal I'd say. I'm busy stripping a spare motor that's never been apart with only 6000km and it has the same amount of play. I would concentrate on the the gear lever linkages.

[Steveog]

Understood, Karl. My bike came with 19K on the clock. Its surprisingly in good shape, internally.

Your advice is a bit of a relief. Saving time and money is always good.

First track day is now booked for April 20. I've a long way to go. At least the weather is giving me a break (10C today 15.6C by Monday).

Thanks, again.

Steve

[Warwick]

I test-fitted the swingarm with the radial bearings in place of the oe thrust washers today. Only a test fit, but I torqued it up to the manual settings and... Yep, all seems perfectly fine  . Nice smooth movement of the arm, so unless something odd turns up later, I think we can confirm that the radial bearing upgrade is a winner for the R/RS  . 

I even did a little phone video of me wafting the arm up and down, but it seems it's too big to upload. Nothing lost though, it wasn't going to be troubling the Oscars jury... 

[ybk]

I'll double the upload size then try again?

Would be interesting to compare the movement  to the stock washer only setup? (Is it much smoother..)

Warwick are you building a new road bike or just freshning up?

[Steveog]

Ha. Warwick, I spent 45 years in motion picture and TV production and I still suck, occasionally. Thanks for the update. I believe I'll order the thrust bearings from your source.

While on the general subject of swing-arm bearings, remember the trouble I had extracting the pivot shaft, bushing and thrust washers? Well. I started cleaning the parts today. I believe the pivot shaft bushing is FUBAR'd. The bearing on one side had rusted into hardened metal of the bushing. Both thrust washers simply fell out of the end cap/seal. The thrust washers did not cause the problem, as I had origially thought. It was the bearing that had also molecularly bonded to the aluminum of the arm itself. My rear suspension was only working with the pivot shaft moving in the bushing. FOOK.

I've posted a few pics of today's discovery. Opinions welcome, but I don't see how I can use the bushing. Yamaha wants $75USD on Megazip (not including postage). Thinking that a local machine shop can make this bushing. It looks as if the bushing's contact surface had been chromed, but I'm suspecting high tensile stainless would make a good substitute.   

All ideas welcome.

[Warwick]

I'll double the upload size then try again?

Would be interesting to compare the movement  to the stock washer only setup? (Is it much smoother..)

Warwick are you building a new road bike or just freshning up?

Well it's certainly smoother than when I took it apart - but the main roller bearing and the bearing sleeve on one side were toast... 

To be honest I doubt there is much difference between this set-up and a clean, freshly greased R type thrust washer set up as the bolting force runs through the main bearing sleeve really. It just feels a nicer way to do it, and one of my thrust washers would have needed replacing in any case, so why not?

Stuck the vid on YouTube (hopefully):  https://youtu.be/fHNlEifbGG0

I'm doing a full rebuild/refresh on a road-going 92R. It won't be anything fancy in the aesthetics/bling department. All the spending will be going on the motor and the chassis  . It's likely to be slow going though, and I doubt I'll find the time/energy to do a project thread, sadly. 

I should stop hijacking Steve's  project thread too really. Sorry Steve!  .

[Warwick]

Yes, your sleeve is goosed, Steve. $75 sounds about right for the new one. I'd just bite the bullet, personally. Mine cost around £60 in the UK when I bought one a couple of weeks ago.  Link here: Dennis will doubtless ship you one to the States if you ask him:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-TZ250-96-00-Swing-Arm-Bush-Gen-Yam-New/401600915115?hash=item5d8147a6ab:g:O6IAAMXQZdFRHsLW:rk:6:pf:0

No idea if that would be any cheaper than Megazip though. Have you Tried Boats.net? 

You'll need to replace the sleeve bearings too of course. They are: IKO TA2525Z if you can't read the codes on yours. A common bearing so you should be able to get them locally if you don't want to pay Mr. Yamaha's prices  . 

[Steveog]

Warwick. No issue on adding to my thread. In, fact I got it all revved up by commenting about Andy's radial needle thrust bearing. Its all good.

Thanks for the adding parts sources and giving me the swing-arm bearing part numbers. I posted a picture of them earlier in this thread. They looked like Hillary Clinton's phones. There's no way to read either one. I was going to take the cage and a needle to my local guys and hope they could figure it out. Now, with the generic part number things should be much easier. I added the pic here for shock factor.

Yeah. I probably should get the OE bushing from Yamaha. Its pretty specific.

I got into cleaning/inspecting the rear suspension linkage. They all have play similar to the shift shaft, but one is very dirty. Thinking about pulling the bearings out for a closer look. Of course, that means seals.

As usual, thanks for your intel and guidance. Getting answers so quickly is keeping me centered.

Karl - You were right. The shift linkage needs tightening. Thinking of drilling and tapping to do the deed, as I don't have a welding device and getting a pro involved for that little piece doesn't seem too cost effective. I've got the tap and hex head appropriate to the task.

Enjoy what left of your weekend, guys.

[Warwick]

The linkage bearings and seals are all easily and relatively cheaply available common parts. The sleeves are a bit more expensive if they need replacing - especially one of them at £30-40 in the UK, as it's only used on the 3XV and one of the 90s TZs. The others are cheaper as they are used on a larger range of bikes. The more expensive one being of course the one I needed to replace... 

The seals your can order from measurement, and the bearings are IKOs with the id numbers clearly stamped on the ends. If you find yours are indecipherable, shout up and and I'll dig the numbers out for you  . 

[Steveog]

Yes. I've decided to pull and inspect the linkage bearings. One seal shows a slight tear. I plan to replace them all. Let's hope the bearings are just dirty and not knackered.

The chrome on the outer most part of one of the sleeves shows some rust, but I'm wondering if that isn't just residue from the bearing. The bike has only been ridden on a wet track once, since I've had it.

Will know more this afternoon.

Can speak with my local bearing guys tomorrow.

Thanks much for your advice and offer to help with the parts.

Steve

[jcsnook]

Steve, I swapped out a standard R swingarm for a SP swingarm on my bike a while back.  While mine came apart much easier than yours, it looked much the same.  I had to source all new parts as well.  Including pivot shaft, bearings, sleeve, dust caps, etc. went new on everything.  I didn't know about ACME bearings  so I bought everything new from Yamaha.  Pricey, but piece of mind.  Had to do it.  Still have old R swinger kicking around.  I thought my buddy with the RZ350 was going to buy it and use it on his RZ, but I guess it would have taken too much effort to make it fit.

We have R&D Motorsports local here that specializes in M/C transmissions.  Mark is a drinking buddy and does all my transmissions.  Certainly not cheap, and I appreciate your budget, but if your gearbox needs some love, he's excellent.

[Steveog]

Thanks for your offer to help, Jim. My tranny is in good shape. I am curious about the RD mod Andy B. mentioned wherein engagement dog are creatively removed and speed shifter settings make the tranny work almost as that of a seem-lees gear box. Probably can't afford such a mod, just wanted to know how it all worked.

I'll replace the counter-shaft bearing, just because I know its been the most heavily loaded for 28 years and there's a trace of rust on the counter-shaft.

My swinger and frame are with the blasting/coating guys right now. I'm getting the pivot shaft bushing and one end cap from Yamaha. The other end Cap is in good shape. As I discussed with Warwick, those parts are pretty specifics. The pivot shaft was slightly corroded, but a sanding sponge cleaned that up nicely. The swing-arm needle bearings are obviously needing replacement. I'll source all the bearing, locally. The counter-shaft, shift shaft, clutch actuation, suspension linkage and PV seals will all be replaced.

Yes. Money is always an issue, but at this point, investing in this bike seems ignorant if done with too much penny-pinching. Not to mention I owe you for pistons and rings when they arrive. Its all good and thanks again for offering up your local tuner.

[Steveog]

Please take a look at the picture. This is the seal that separates the transmission oil from water pump impeller and coolant flow. From past experience, I know the oil should not be this color and probably indicates a leaking seal. The impeller shaft was not sloppy in its bushing. Can one of you guys validate my opinion? I tried to pull that seal, but the usual stuff wasn't working. I plan to replace it, but don't want to damage the surrounding run of aluminum by getting too rough with the seal. Any tips?

I have removed and tested all the rear suspension linkage bearings and pleased they all move freely on their pivot shafts. Only needing new seals.

Do you have a favorite grease for re-assembly of the rear suspension? I normally use white lithium grease.

That's it for the day.

Thanks for any help or comments you can offer.

Steve