3xv: Project Phoenix

[ybk]

Disclaimer: I haven't set up a zeel before so yeah.

As I understand it the static angle is just the distance between when the pickup gets the signal from the flywheel and TDC. This angle is used as reference for all your ignition timing points, for example, a 20degree timing advance point only makes sense if the zeel knows how many degrees after the pickup the piston will be at TDC. Once known (the static angle) then the zeel knows at what point 20degrees BTDC will be and then obviously when to fire the spark plug.

The different 3XV models have a few different flywheels with different lobes which means they all will have different static angles.

You can measure the static angle with a dial guage (to get TDC from the piston) and a degree wheel to get the distance between TDC and pickup. The preferred method is more practical and will confirm more accurately that you have the right static angle. Maccas explains it nicely in this post (from the ignitec thread which has some nice info regarding programmable ignitions as well if you have time) : http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=636.msg8735#msg8735

Once you have the appropriate marks on the flywheel and cases then you can program a flat curve into the zeel (16 degrees throughout the rev range) then adjust the static angle until the marks align using a strobe. This confirms the static angle practically and will ensure that the advance values programmed into the zeel will match real world values. Then you can punch in whatever curve you want.

But yeah the static angle is the most vital part, getting it wrong can mean unwanted advance or retarding.

I'm still trying to wrap mind around all this so I may have things upside down..

[Martin77]

A simpler idea is to measure the length of the lug on the edge of the flywheel, and compare it to other people's 3XV using zeel. If the lug is the same length, then you can copy their static timing. As you have a basic 'R' model, it is most unlikely that it would be an odd length.

I would be 99% sure it's the same as Phil's, any chance you can post up the length of your lug Phil? say around the circumference from end to end..

[maccas]

All 3xv's should be 65 degrees. It's only the position of the back of the lobe that varies between some 3xv flywheels. But that doesn't affect how a zeel works.

However, it is definitely worth doing the strobe check as there is sometimes an offset between cylinders. Also the woodruff key isn't a perfect fit in the flywheel so the flywheel can move on the crank slightly before the nut is nipped up.

Static angle on my bike is 64 degrees, but then i had to offset one cylinder by 1 degree (in the zeel software) to get the static angle to match.

65 degrees will be very very close though. You can more than likely fit it and forget. What ignition curve are you planning to run?

Dan

[Steveog]

Wow. Thanks boys. Very helpful. All good.

Phil - I like your answer. I do nothing pretty well. "Harder to start" with the Zeel is good to know. I tend to keep my battery charged. No real reason, as it currently starts with 1-3 kicks on choke. 1 kick if warm. Both happen when the battery is drained.

Karl - Appreciate the link and the details. Will read before plugging up the Zeel. Your intel makes a lot of sense, considering you've never done this. HA. I too am trying to wrap my head around how all this works. But, the results have to be better than the stock ECU.

Martin - Yeah. That's good advice. I tried to find the measurement you mentioned, but struck-out (US Baseball Term for failure). Let's see if someone can post the number you've recommended.

Dan - I haven't yet read your Ignitech link that Karl posted. Good info on the small variables I might encounter. I plan to start with the curve programmed by the factory. I understand the Borut owns a 3xv and this curve should be a good starting point.

Do you have a recommended curve for my set up? Right now the power is smooth and relatively snappy, but it won't rev past 11.3K rpm. You can read my track report of how much difference there was in jetting between testing near my home, compared to that of a local track.

I'm working on my throttle cables, carb sync and changing back to stock reed petals, today. Should have a report on the Zeel by Monday or Tuesday.

Getting all your opinions overnight was outstanding. Means a lot to me personally and hopefully, to my bike.

My best to you all.

Steve

[ybk]

A simpler idea is to measure the length of the lug on the edge of the flywheel, and compare it to other people's 3XV using zeel. If the lug is the same length, then you can copy their static timing. As you have a basic 'R' model, it is most unlikely that it would be an odd length.

I would be 99% sure it's the same as Phil's, any chance you can post up the length of your lug Phil? say around the circumference from end to end..

I thought about that but then what if the lobe is in a different place and length. Would be nice to compare and document all the different flywheels..

On an unrelated note, you make a small appearance in the June issue of Practical Sportsbikes by the way.. p95

[Steveog]

Karl - Yes, If flywheels are different, a database of their triggers would be very helpful. I'm hoping someone posts the measurements for a 3xv1. Call me selfish.

I read the thread you posted referencing Dan's input. To be absolutely precise, both cylinders must be timed. Most enlightening.

My son (IT specialist for a local bank) has cleaned up an older IBM Thinkpad for my use with the Zeel. Im a MAC guy, so wish me luck.

Anything to promote Martin is good and welcome on this thread. Just saw another post today, wherein a 3xv fan is looking for his pipes.

Spent the day gathering up pieces for fabbing my new radiator mounts and ordering up jetting options. Must get busy on actually working on the bike. 8/10 track day at one of America's fastest and most technical track now looms large. Unfortunately, other famous US tracks that are more advantageous to the 3xv ("cough") Laguna Seca is about 4000 Km from here.

Thanks again, Karl. Hope this recent info helps others, as much as it has me.

Steve

[Martin77]

On an unrelated note, you make a small appearance in the June issue of Practical Sportsbikes by the way.. p95

hah, yeah I saw, that was from years ago... complete with slightly disconnected caption!

[Steveog]

After several attempts and much time appropriated to find a (RH) carb top cap to replace the TPI, I'm open to suggestions.

I have a top US rep attempting to source the part directly from Mikuni in Japan. It will take a while.

I'm thinking that the rear carb top cap could be adapted, but it has no part number.

I need a clue. An SP Crank was easier to find. I'd take a used (LH) carb top cap, as it will require modification anyway.

Ideas? Sources? I'm stuck.

Thanks in advance.

Steve

[thump566]

On an unrelated note, you make a small appearance in the June issue of Practical Sportsbikes by the way.. p95

hah, yeah I saw, that was from years ago... complete with slightly disconnected caption!

Guessing its you with the NSR Martin?

[Warwick]

After several attempts and much time appropriated to find a (RH) carb top cap to replace the TPI, I'm open to suggestions.

I have a top US rep attempting to source the part directly from Mikuni in Japan. It will take a while.

I'm thinking that the rear carb top cap could be adapted, but it has no part number.

I need a clue. An SP Crank was easier to find. I'd take a used (LH) carb top cap, as it will require modification anyway.

Ideas? Sources? I'm stuck.

Thanks in advance.

Steve

There are quite a few TM28s on eBay you could cannibalize for parts, Steve. Alternatively mail one of the vendors of the new ones and ask if they can supply a top with straight cable holder separately perhaps?

I've used niche cycle in the US for carb bits in the past. They seem to be pretty good and may be able to supply just the top and cable holder: http://www.nichecycle.com/ncs/categories/carburetor/carburetors/mikuni-carburetors/flat-slide-carburetors.html

Lots of other bikes used the TM28s too, so maybe broaden your search if looking to find used carbs to use for parts? 

[Martin77]

Guessing its you with the NSR Martin?

yeah, that's me...


Steve, the carbs type is a Mikuni TM28SS, and were used on other bikes as Warwick says. I wonder if a 'standard' TM carb top will work, but you'd need a custom cable making I would guess. You could try this UK company that is a carb specialist; http://www.allensperformance.co.uk/ and see what he says, or the price of parts. Whole carbs on are ebay, cheapest about £60 at the moment in the UK.

[Steveog]

Gentlemen.

Warwick: I've used Niche Cycle for jets. Great service and pricing. Yes, they have a TM28SS in Stock. $131 USD. I guess I need to decide if I want to pay for the cap and adjuster and have carb parts left over. Looking at other bikes with this carb is a good idea, as one vendor told me, "Mikuni won't release OEM spec'd parts." As I said, Yamaha doesn't offer a part number for the cap. A classic mobius loop.

Martin: Will check your source. Ideally, the cable mount and adjuster from the TPS could be adapted to a new carb top. It mounts with a circlip and would swivel.

I've finally got the stock cable properly fixed to pull only the carbs. Oil pump and PV cables have been removed. Rewarding to beat that headache. The new cable has very little slack that could mess up carb sync. The pics are of that part of the cable that was broken. I will use Heavy Duty shrink wrap to finish it up.

All good advice. Thanks to you both.

Steve

[Warwick]

I'm pretty sure that the top from any TM (VM)28 would fit as the basic body casting looks the same across the different types. To be honest though you could probably make a perfectly serviceable top yourself from suitable aluminium plate. Make up a suitable gasket from good gasket paper, drill a hole through the middle for a threaded adjuster and Bob's your uncle!   

[Steveog]

Yeah. I'm liking the DIY idea...Because I finally got that throttle cable mod to behave, I already feel like Irv Kanamoto. Well, not quite, but it's easily the most complex sub-assembly on the whole bike or any bike I've ever worked on. Quite diabolical. I've included a pic of the finished cable. Very smooth. No catching.

I'm going to try what you've suggested. I've got the aluminum and gasket material from slapping together the oil pump cover. Seems I could get almost any standard cable mount/adjuster to stand-in. There's that lump on the underside that collects the spring, but that could be a separate piece, threaded through and held with the cable mount.

Wonder why one of our fellows here with a 3-D printer hasn't tried to make this part? Its not listed by Yamaha as a part and it would seem that more than a few of us might want to get rid of the TPS. There is a market it would seem.

Always good to know you're following my antics. Thank You.

Steve

[Steveog]

Just got this from the UK. Its not even on their website yet. Great customer service. Competitive pricing.

Tested with heat gun. Works as expected.

tachos@scitsu.com  Direct comments to Dylan.