The IC inside the CDI

[Louis]

Yes, here it is

As I understand the ICP12 RB0 should not be connected to Pin 13 of the OEM IC but directly to T2333 at pin 4.

Yes, that is correct.

Maybe a jump wire from T2333 Pin4 to OEM IC Pin 13 could do.

That's is possible, I just soldered it on pin4 for a quick tryout.
Perhaps we can bridge it, I could measure all the pins on the Oem IC where a 5V is found.
Then measure all the pins (on the circuit board) with no IC mounted.
If i can find one witch is different, I could give him a 5v from pin21 and see if the pickup signal travels all the way.

But what concerns me a bid is that strange pulls on the block on  pin13, how will the iCP12 react on that? If we use that signal?

[tzr-v4]

React from work so no CDI there...

The little artifact should be ignored by ICP12 as the IC is checking the falling edge and it is detected when voltage goes below a given value so no problem.
From PIC documentation
* For Output Pin
    - Hight Steady state is above 4.3v with 5v VCC
    - Low Steady state is below 0.6v with
* For Input Pin
    - Hight Steady state is above 2v with 5v VCC
    - Low Steady state is below 0.75v with 5v VCC

Which signal is the white curve ?

[Louis]

Which signal is the white curve ?

(White) curve is before diode (now I know fore sure) vs pin 13 (green)

I couldn't help my self I had to know
Updated my site (last part)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html


This is the tiny problem maker, a small Diode.


Questions
-Way do they place it there?
-Do they use it as some kind off filter?
-Do we have any info on this type?
-Does the TDR has one on the same pace?

[Louis]

After studying diode's on the net, found how the CDI it is working.

Give me a moment I'm updating my site

Its great

[Louis]

Site up to date   (scroll to the bottom)
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html


This picture says it all.

Here a quick movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muOzuSt1qEM&feature=youtu.be

(Green) pin 13 on IC, going from 0V to 5V
(yellow) before diode, going from 5V to 0V

Looks quit nice, and logical now

The Oem IC has a constant 5V outgoing signal, as it can do that because the diode is not blocking that  current direction

The pickup signal (tricker point) has a mass signal, so when it is giving a mass signal, the IC (pin 13) can only follow it and goes to mass to.
That mass period is the pulse where the IC can work with.

Not bad he, for just basic understanding off electronics
Now I have a understanding how it is working, hope you guys to.

Cheers

[jools]

Amazing work guys, I think I'm beginning to understand it better when I go back and read the whole lot in one go............I think 

[xracer]

 Don't  pretend to even understand half on what these guys are doing but it seems to me that when they're finished, it will be a benefit to us all, stunning stuff.

[tzr-v4]

For the diode there is 2 types :
- standard ones like LED or rectification diode
- zener ones

A diode allows an electric current to pass in one direction and bloc the other way
With 4 diodes, you setup bridge to convert alternating current to direct current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode

I think here the diode is to prevent reverse current or if it is a zener diode to cut the voltage to a given value.

Need to investigate.

Which firmware did to test ? The first One with steady 19° ?

A think mechanical steady angle has to be set to 36° (not 35°) when you tested with no IC.

I"ll build a new firmwares today (at lunch time).

I'll build

[tzr-v4]

On your little video, when the CDI is power on 12v then both curves go from 0v to 5v.

When rotation starts then pickup sensor pull the voltage to 0v for some milliseconds.

Does this low voltage square wave varies in time whit RPM or is stable ?

On the TDR CDI, multi meter beeps (contact) between T2333 pin 4 to IC pin 13 (no IC on).
Will remove the hot glue to follow the tracks 

On the TDR CDI a direct track (0.1 or 0.0 Ohms) has been found so far 
Only one capacitor for noise filtering (connected to ground / yellow).
blue is top side track / Red bottom side track

[Louis]

Does this low voltage square wave varies in time whit RPM or is stable

It varies with rpm, but the duty cycle seems to bee holding steady.
Have made a couple off snap shots at 32hz, 60hz, 102hz, 130hz
It looks like the duty cycle is holding






Could it have influence that the iCP12 is programmed for getting a 5V pulse, wile in practice it is getting a 5V constant with a mass pulse?
Does this not mixup the rising and fouling edge?
Her is a snap shot off your software with the iCP12 (52hz and 120hz)



Think the complexity off the 3MA makes it difficult for me, i can't hardly follow any route
Looking at your TDR CDI you can already see that pin22 goes to the T2333 on pin6

Your firmware is working on your TDR CDI, as it has no diode at the end. Your signal is getting on pin13.
T2333 gives his signal almost directly to pin 13.

Think the TPS sensor on the 3MA CDI is making it difficult to understand what it is doing.
For example:
Have made a couple off snapshots of pin4 (green) from the T2333 vs Pin13 (yellow) Oem IC in.
All working logical till 59hz, after 60hz there is get a difference between them up to Max I can measure
Also turning at the TPS sensor at the (example)125hz is making a difference.

Till 59hz all good.


61hz starts moving


100hz its the same shifting


It is getting stranger if I turn the TPS sensor (125hz)
TPS at 0


TPS at 1


It is strange there is a movement on the pickup signal.
Could be that that small diode is doing something, but I doubt if it is changing the length of a pulse
Will measure between pin4 off the T2333 and start off the diode and see if it changes then

But on overall it seems like the incoming pickup signal is a steady pulse (when no IC is placed)
Only its a mass pulse, hope this wont make it harder for the iCP12

[tzr-v4]

Looking at the influence of TPS signal on pickup signal make me think on several things :
- TPS resistor value could change the RC circuit which create the low voltage time
- If so then rising edge is the important signal to start counting the advance

Can you check the effect of several values (or position) of TPS for a given frequency (or RPM) ?
    -> capturing the curves on the oscilloscope
    -> look with the time light is advance is affected

If the modification is only hardware (couple RC giving the low time) we should see it.

[Louis]

After typing my previous post, I rushed back to my workshop

If the modification is only hardware (couple RC giving the low time) we should see it.

I may have a answer for that
Measured pin4 from the T2333 till start diode pin13
Signals are exactly the same all through the rpm range, no interfering from the TPS is noticed.

Only when measured directly on pin13, TPS shifting is noticed.
Seems like the signal on pin13 is changing, T2333 signal stays the same

Here a (very) small movie, swishing between pin13 IC and (before) diode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNjlHx1Gz50&feature=youtu.be

Could it not be that I'm measuring the limit off the diode.
When pulled to mass (from the pickup signal) the current from the IC can only follow, but when receiving the 5V back doesn't the diode needs time to block the 5V signal coming from the pickup (I'm reading on serval info sites that there is a 0,6 or 0,7V starting/blocking point)



As the block signal isent that straight, it is curved away, like it needs time or charging it self


The fouling edge stays the same (first point from 5V till 0V) For both signals

[Louis]

Olivier,

Have found a way to compare the iCP12 (19 degree firmware) with the Oem IC (19 degrees)
Have done some quick tests and it looks promising
It has to do with testing them on exactly the same Hz. and compare the measurements.

I'm free this Saturday so try to get some good snapshots.
Will let you know.

Think we are close

[tzr-v4]

During next 2 weeks it is kids holiday here so I'll have to take some days out from work.

I'll run some timing light sessions in the garage 

Yes tests back to back ICP12 vs OEM is good.

We need to know what modifications to signals the TPS and the Speed sensors do.

[Louis]

After some research about the understanding off the incoming (pickup) signal and the outgoing (ignition) signal.
And how to get and use the signal
See here for the final research:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/oscilloscope-measurements-cdi.html
It was getting time to focus on the iCP12 to get it working correct

One off those thinks was to find the static angular were Olivier can build its program on.
Olivier has posted me servile firmware's to test (going as far as making a 36,5 degrees static angular firmware great work)

Here you have some more info, on how we get there:
http://www.tzr3ma.com/getting-the-icp12-ready-for-use.html

But in the end the 37 degrees static angular is the one we need.


Now we know the static angular. The next thing to solve it the sifting of degrees when rpm rises.
(First part the shifting goes faster, but in the end it seems to go slowly)
From a +/-1000rpm to a 4000rpm it moves 1 degree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stTqp04fqQM&feature=youtu.be

But I'm sure we gona solve that to