TZR Forum

Looking at buying a 1991 TZR250SP 3XV2
Serial numbers are within the correct range.
Has the correct radiator, swingarm, forks, gauge mounts, dry clutch, 3XV10 cylinders...unsure of carb size.
Do not know what CDI it has....original pipes are long gone.

I'm a RGV guy, and have found Megazip to have quite a few NOS parts still....
Are engine rebuild parts somewhat simple to source (not cheap I'm sure though)...?

It will need a complete rebuild top to bottom, but if all the correct parts are there....
The million dollar question.
What are these worth, and are they harder to keep running than a standard 3XV with the 36's

What kind of deep hole might I be digging for myself?

Don't buy it your rgv's will go up forsale after you ride it!  >:D

A restricted 3XV is very frustrating. Once you get proper power out of it it's similar to a VJ23

They are physically quite small so if you are more teenage Japanese than middle aged European you will be fine.

They are all money pits

Over on the RGV forum Tasswipe buit a TD VJ23 but after riding my 3XVRS (deresitricted) at Anglesey, he sold the TD VJ23 (to me) and bought a proper race bike 4TW TZ250, all based on riding the 3XV.

The TD VJ23 has had a lot of work and I think is a better TD bike than the std 3XV, but neither are as good as a proper TZ. I ended up with Pauls 4DP1 and the rather good 3XV/4DP4 which is ace and rides like the thing it is a 3XV on steroids. IMO the 3XV/4DP is better than the 4DP1

If it already has pipes then a zeel will finish the derestriction. Rebuild wise it's definitely not as easy as RGV's (in terms of part availability) but still doable. A fair few parts are still available so that helps. The rest you have to look at sourcing secondhand.

Personally I put SP models on par with VJ23's and MC28's in terms of value, maybe a little less. 28's and 23's get slightly higher prices in Japan last I checked. SPR's for some reason fetch the highest prices.

No harder to keep running than a standard 3xv I'd say.

You're digging hole that swallows money for sure, worth it though ^-^

Have you got any pics to share?

The Japanese web site the bike is on will not let me copy the picture....
maybe I'll try to do a screen shot of it.

Here are a few money pits I have already emptied way too much $$$ on.
(https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=371453&d=1528659012&thumb=1)

I know it really won't be an investment by the time I would have it all back together,...
... but I was just wondering what a basket case yet complete SP would be worth.....

My VJ23 is beyond words, so if a 3XV SP can be the same to some degree.....without going all the way with a TZ, I will probably throw a bid out on it and see what happens.

Is 60+ HP at the rear wheel reasonably easy with a unrestricted 3XV2
my VJ23 and RS250 managed that without much work at all...? (the VJ22FL is still in restricted mode)

3XV has a broader spread of power like the VJ23, rather than out and out HP. Std is restricted to either 40 or 45bhp. Pipes and ignition will give the biggest and quickest gains rather than porting. After that it's all about the set up

Have a read thru all the 3XV build/project threads. Paul's is a good one as it goes into a lot of detail. My RS build is also on there, as are many many others

Hi Busa,
I have a V2 and when it's running properly it's a fantastic bike. They are small but I'm 6 2 and find it fine. Suspension is a little soft.

A basket case SP has to be worth at least £2K more than a basket case R and  the gap will widen once tidy. They only sold 1000 bikes with rotary powervalves, Cranks are different but still available, check for 10 heads, pistons are flat topped, intake manifolds and reeds different but will be right if carbs are. Air boxes different, fairing side panels should have air ductwork fitted on the inside. Original panels are expensive and difficult to find as are good tanks.

My brother has a VJ23 with the same race pipes as yours and a zeel and on the same dyno on the same day it made 1.5HP more than mine. As Phil (Mellorp) has said the SP kills it everywhere else in the range though I don't have race pipes min.
You should get over 60HP a dynojet easily.
Get the squish and head volumes right, put a zeel on (forget the sugo cdi), lose the airbox,  forget the air sovs and powerjets, just play with bleeding in air via a pipe and jet and a few hours on the dyno, fit massive main jets, set up power valves and ignition timing. then Bobs your uncle.

Thanks for all the input guys.
The last thing I need is another project....
After finishing my RZV I said I was done for the year.
But my addiction has drawn me in deeper....I gave my high bid amount to my Japanese connection.
Just a matter of time now....

????

(https://www.customfighters.com/forums/imagehosting/125615d0bc5b075cf6.png)

(https://www.customfighters.com/media/img_2577-2-png.57657/full)

Saw that one, looks like a good base. Not a bad price, did you win?

It will be in my garage in about 10-12 weeks I hope.
I just checked new crank prices....$1400 ...!!! Damn....a new genuine RGV crank only cost me $$700
Have to pay to play I guess.

Your location isn't posted on your profile. If you are in the UK, call Andy at Webb's Yamaha in Lincolnshire. If he can get an SP crank, the price in USD was well below what you've discovered.

Andy offers a discount to Forum members. At least he did late last year.

If you're in the US, getting the Crank from the UK will be a problem. (Complicated story. Trust me) You'll need to make friends with a UK resident and have them act as your broker.

Shipping is expensive. DHL has proven reliable.

Good luck.

Quote from: Steveog on June 21, 2019, 03:58:05 PM
Your location isn't posted on your profile.


Good luck.

Same state as you  :))
Just more rain and snow...... :(

Roger, your location. Hello, Hoosier.

Still, spend the money on a phone call to Andy at Webb's. Check his pricing. Make sure you let him know you're wanting the crank for off-road use ONLY.

You'll still need a UK friend to help work this deal with Webb's. The price is worth the effort.

My SP Crank is sitting in my my modded "R" waiting for that first kick.

Again, good luck.

Steve

I'll check into it.  (-P)
I sold a 72 GT750J to a guy in the UK I could try and contact again, or possibly check Sean at the Tuning Works....(RGV central)

I have more pics from the auction here.
https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?sid=box-l-7o3xvpj44izp3eu6ea3nwh6afq-1001&uniqid=72436ad9-6021-499a-ac47-e38631464a52
It does not look like it has been cannibalized too much of it's SP specific parts.....
....but I'm early in my learning with them, so if anyone sees something wrong let me know.
One pic shows the side of the lower carb, not sure if they are still the 36's or not...(seller could not confirm)

A little scruffy but overall a good bike! Looks like everything is there. It kinda looks like it has the bigger air intake boot on the top carb so that means carbs are good. Post up a project thread when you get it  :)

The best will be to take photos when you get it home
The 3xv is the 250 with the most sp special parts
It was also the most expensive at 900000yen new

 (-P)
I will definitely photograph the project from beginning to end.
And to record what the SP specific parts look like.
It helps when it takes a year from start to finish (remembering routing of cables and hoses and brackets and....so on)

Ive got a 1991 3xv, but mines a bit of a bitsa. its the standard R frame with the SP motor fitted.
im running the 36mm carbs on stock porting cylinders with jakal/taodo pipes. but i still only run the standard -00 cdi.
The redistricting of the carbs is what took me the longest to figure out.  But ill sum it up in a sentence for you to save you some time. 36mm-round bore tm's, variable air jet blocks removed, the inlet port on the carbs must be blocked. then removed the brass ball and drill and tap a 4mm x.7 thread, so you can fit a 2.0 size air jet. after that its just like jetting in any other carb. I think off the top of my head i have 35 pilots, 410 mains with 55 power jets, if you want needle/needle jet numbers just let me know, i believe my clip is in the leanest position. I did however also need to change the factory carb out for a pingel unit with a universal adapter plate you dont have to weld on your tank.

Ive got lots of RDs, DTs, and a Gen 2 Vmax that has been tuned by Tim Nash, so Im well versed in bikes/ 2strokes, and honestly the 3xv is without a doubt the best handling, lightest feeling bike I have ever ridden. It is obscene how quickly they accelerate. I have yet to dyno the bike but honestly I dont really care, I can pull away from my brothers heavily modded RD 350 that only weighs 300lbs like hes standing still and his bike is supposedly 50hp.

 (-P)    I am hoping the bike still has it's 36 carbs on it.
Since it has aftermarket exhaust, I will be interested in seeing how it was tuned for them in Japan.....
....(as they seem to know most of the tricks)
Depending on what ignition box it has, I very likely will put a Zeel on it.
That way I can try and use as many circuits in the carbs as possible all the way through it's throttle travel....
Since the Zeel appears that it can control many of the carb variables.
Hope to be going to the dyno next month to get the Zeel on my RZV powervalve curved dialed in, and check for my my A/F ratio.

If you fit a zeal the outputs usually operAte the electronic power jets. As yellow and fast said the variable air jets (vaj) are junked.
In each vaj there are 2 solenoid operated jets and one always open jet.
If you disconnect the vaj only the central jet passes air. You can lose the vaj and just put the jet in the pipe so they are easy to change when at the dyno then when sorted make permanent as per yellow.
I had no luck with the power jets, just could not get fuel through them quick enough. Bike goes well without them.
Definitely junk the std cdi and don't bother with sugo cdi unless you have all the other sugo kit and want to run race fuel.  The zeal
will do it all and can be adjusted to all states of tune.

 (-P)
If the fuel could not go through quick enough because of restricted original fuel tap?
Does the Sugo CDI require a dedicated harness to match it up to the bike?
Or is the harness used to eliminate all the street equipment? I'm guessing basically like the Suzuki kit SAPC boxes?
Although for the RGV the Sugaya box is more street worthy...best of both worlds. Does the 3XV have something like that?
Looking through the pictures on the auction again, I believe I see the top of the power jet for rear carb...I'm to the understanding that only the SP had those...?
Still has the original 36's if that is the case.  (-P)

Yes only the 36mm had those powerjets.
There are 2 types of 36mm tm carbs. The round bore (early) which I'm using on my bike, and tge oval bore, ( I have, but not fitted). They say the ovals are better for street use with the same topend power compared to the straight 36mm bore carbs.
The powerjets are electronically activated to cut fuel at the top for more over rev. I run my open all the time. And my bike signs off at 11.5-12.  The powerjets pulls fuel from the float bowl so if the powerjets were starving for fuel, everything was also. The purpose of the powerjets is to be able to run a big carb with a small main on a small displacement engine and keep a very responsive low-mid range. The dump fuel in at 3/4 throttle and above.

I don't have any. but believe the oval carbs are 34mm and were used when the 36mm carbs were banned for racing, probably because the Yams were winning. SPs just had the round 36, the 34 were later and on SPR I think.
All good on the power jets. Don't know why but by the time they were turned on and the fuel was up to them they were shut off again!
Check the power jet jets as they may be blank with no hole in them (need to take them apart to check).
I think the sugo box fits straight on a road harness but you have to mess with the wiring to swap over to powerjets. The sugo harness drops all the street stuff. I have a sugo cdi if you are set on one, I was talked out of using it, the timing is for race fuel. Cheers Scotty

You have the 36mm carbs off the sp 91 n 92 with the power jets. Then you have the 32mm off the sp 93 n 94 with power jet. Then you have the 32mm tri oval bore with power jet off the 95.

There's also 38mm carbs off the tz 250 with power jet.

Quote from: busa1300 on July 01, 2019, 05:29:12 AM
(-P)
Does the Sugo CDI require a dedicated harness to match it up to the bike?
Or is the harness used to eliminate all the street equipment? I'm guessing basically like the Suzuki kit SAPC boxes?
(-P)

Doesn't require the Sugo harness, plugs into the stock one. The air solenoids are discarded (sugo carb kit eliminates them), powerjets are enabled, speedo restrictor is disabled along with sidestand cutout switch. The Sugo harness re-locates the CDI to the front of the bike and substitutes the battery for a capacitor (have't used the sugo harness myself though).

I still think the the Sugo CDI's are useful, especially on the early non solenoid 2t pumps (which gets disabled by the later model sugo box). A -70('91) or -80('92) would still work on your bike just fine. I have a -80 on my 3XV5 frankenstein bike (3xv5 and 2 are pretty much the same bike) and it runs OK (ish). Running on pump petrol and it's done 2000 odd track km without grenading.

Have you seen the sugo curves?

(http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=679.0;attach=14918;image)

From this thread: http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=679.0
The 7K was made for unleaded and you can see it's pretty much identical to the -80.

I might change my tune once I get a Zeel as well though, wouldn't mind playing around with different curves etc.

 (-P) Thanks guys.
I did see those curves when I first considered a Zeel for the bike.
I was hoping there were some curves to start off with and then tune to fit the bike.
Are there any powervalve curves for the Zeel, or on off points for the powerjets?

Still trying to find some good curves to try on my RZV Zeel.

Borut has a 3XV, so the plug and play map it comes with is pretty good. I had one 30 min session on a dyno to tweak the PV settings on the 3XVRS (Bulldog Boy now owns that bike). After that I just rode it and that bike goes like stink.

There is already a massive thread debate about this!
It's fair to say this:
All motors are slightly different, in all sorts of ways, porting, compression, squish, head volumes, reeds, jetting etc etc
A sugo CDI will work best with the full sugo kit it was designed to work eg  with pipes, carb kit etc. There are head mods required and I believe it does use race fuel. If you haven't gone nuts on squish and use 99ron you are prob fine with one but it's never going to be optimum.
A zeel allows adjustment to get the best from whatever mods you've made or whatever state of tune you have.

I had a free sugo 70 cdi that came with my bike and never used it, favouring a zeel.
If you don't have one and need to buy something it is a no brainer. Apart from the fact the wiring diag that comes with the zeel has mistakes in the wiring for the powerjets.
Would love to see someone get a RGV duty air solenoid running on a 3XV. The 3xv and RGV Zeel is the same unit and so the functionality is there for it. If made to work the mixture could be set to whatever you wanted it to be at any revs making the power jets crude and redundant. The duty solenoid basically opens and closes really quickly you can change the ratio of time on and time off (pulse width modulation). I had a quick  go at the dyno but run out of time.

Phil was lucky to get his bike sorted in 30mins that's for sure. If you experiment with jetting, ignition  timing, power valve timing and power jets it takes a good few hours minimum.
How much is a sugo cdi worth now? Cheers Scotty

The 30 mins on the dyno was to do the final tweaks. As usual I rode round (on the road) for quite some time making changes using the real riding experience to set the bike up. Not only the engine but tyres, brakes, suspension. IMO you can have the best engine set up in the world and post all sorts of fancy dyno figures about power etc. but if you aren't comfy riding the bike, it handles like a shopping trolley and stops like a horse and cart, dyno time is totally pointless

Quote from: busa1300 on July 05, 2019, 01:07:56 PM

Are there any powervalve curves for the Zeel, or on off points for the powerjets?

Juergen posted excel files as he went along, it contains all the airjet info, powervalve and powerjet points.

eg. http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=679.msg49626#msg49626

Here's a topic I am hoping we can populate with zeel config files along with bike setup:

http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5829.0

 (-P)
Finally got a few more pictures of the bike, before getting put into the crate.
Obviously needs a different (original paint) tail, but otherwise doesn't look too bad.
They will send a few pics of the heads/cylinders/carbs soon, when tearing down to box up.

....It's a long wait..... :'(

(https://www.customfighters.com/forums/imagehosting/125615d328b06c0b1b.jpg)

You got that from miyabee plus? So far it looks like a sp.

I found the bike in a online auction.
I asked her to help me get bike, take care of paperwork and ship it to me.
Been buying parts from her for years.
She also helped me with a few other bikes.

3XV-10

In the crate

Happy for you, Busa. More blue smoke in Indiana can only help the environment.

 (-P) Thanks.
I wish it could do something about the humidity at least... ;D
It was 94% a few mornings ago when I rode in to work (4:00AM)

Yeah. The weather is the same down here. It's giving me fits trying to dial in the jetting.

Stay safe. Those early morning roads can be slick with condensation.

Steve

News flash...!!!


I went to the Shipping company in Chicago today and brought home my new project

All looks good.  Looks to have been used on the track judging by the transponder and the lock-wiring?

Thanks...I think it has all the SP pieces still intact....have the original footpegs and levers, and chain guard also.
The wire thing hanging down is not a transponder, but but an HID mechanism for the head light.
......The first thing I threw in the trash.....
Wiring is kind of butchered up from whoever put the system in.....guessing last owner, which explains why is hasn't run in a while.
Going to pull plugs and have a look at them, and do a compression check, then check to see if I have ignition.
If so I'll squirt a little fuel mix in to see if it fires up.
If there are no rattles, I'll pull carbs for a clean in my sonic tank.....check inside of gas tank and fuel lines....and see if I can get it running as is.

Then put it up on a stand and start collecting parts for the rebuild.

Nice! Christmas came early 8) What kind of restoration are you planning? And why is the 500 apart? :)

The RZV is apart at the moment as I was in the process of changing needles in the carbs...then I was informed my TZR needed to be picked up.
So once I got the TZR, I have not gone back to the RZV to finish the job and test ride yet.....hopefully be back running by the end of the weekend.
Plan for the TZR, will be a complete rebuild nut and bolt....but I will not really restore it, want to keep as much original finish on as much as possible. Basically a serious deep clean like I did with my RZV and my VJ23.....new bearings/seals/gaskets throughout the entire bike.
Doing some deep research trying to find out what parts are missing/destroyed/reengineered....
...took a while to figure out where the hell the battery went, until I found out here on the forum.... (-P)
Those wires have been hacked into, so need to restore the wiring first just to see if I can get lights and powervalves to move.

Hooked up a battery charger to the battery wires and the power valves were working, and the dash lights,
Pulled the air filter covers off as I figured the filters were probably junk (they fell apart as I tried to pull them out)
Then I shot some gas/oil mix down the carb throats.....and it fired up no problem   (-P) (-P) (-P)
Sounded good (no rattles or clanking) Pulled the plugs and they looked as if they had been working in a good environment
I believe the reason bike was sold as a non runner...the choke lever was broken off, and carbs were glued shut (dried up fuel on slides)...and owner had no understanding of the bike.

I'll dig deeper after I get my RZV back together and dialed in ( trying to get rid of a wall it hits at 5000/5500...)

Once I have a understanding of what the TZR will need, I'll then eventually start a new thread for the rebuild.
Until then, I'll just keep adding stuff here.

Was hoping to win the auction today on a SPR airbox, but several people wanted it more than me.
The airbox on the bike definitely has the restrictor rings, but there are other restrictions about the same size in both boxes.....I see why no airbox is used for the 36 Mikunis...
Did a compression check and the engine appears pretty good shape yet.
160 in the left cylinder and 170 in the right cylinder.
Pulling carbs will be next to clean them up and make a note on their set up for the pipes on the bike.

Still plan on a complete rebuild, but with such good compression......I might ride it as is a little before I go all the way with it.

I saw those airboxes, crazy price ::) Even with the one intake boot that was torn, jeez..

What CDI is in there?

Good to see the guts already seem in good shape. Yes. If this is a winter re-build project, then definitely ride it...with one hand on the clutch lever and a cell phone in your pocket.

My 3xv is a track bike. If it goes wrong, a truck will come to bring us home.

You make this Hoosier proud. Just take care.

Steve

Quote from: ybk on September 09, 2019, 12:49:25 AM
I saw those airboxes, crazy price ::) Even with the one intake boot that was torn, jeez..

What CDI is in there?

The intake manifolds went for some crazy money as well off that SPR

The CDI on my bike is the standard 3XV-10, but a member on here offered me a 3XV-70 that I think I would like to try. (unable to make contact after deciding I would like to get it from him)
But ultimately after the full rebuild (which will be a while as I need to start collecting parts before I tear bike apart) I will get a Zeel.

Quote from: Steveog on September 09, 2019, 02:00:17 AM
Good to see the guts are already seem in good shape. Yes. If this is a winter re-build project, then definitely ride it...with one hand on the clutch lever and a cell phone in your pocket.

My 3xv is a track bike. If it goes wrong, a truck will come to bring us home.

You make this Hoosier proud. Just take care.

Steve

I have had years of practice coasting to a stop..... :))
I have my van usually at the ready with ramps inside, for worse case scenarios

Thanks, just doing what I love  :)
I'm going to the Barber vintage fest, were you going to go there as well to this years event?

Nice rig. Why did this not surprise me? Not planning on Barber, although its tempting. My partner would have to buy into such an adventure. HA. He owns the hauler. The Barber track has been re-surfaced by the same engineers that did "The National Corvette Museum" track. Best traction of any track I've ridden. Add to that, Keith Code says the same thing. His crew goes to just about every track in the US. High praise. From Code, not me.

Next track day for me is Putnam, 9/28. Riding with Mid-West. There are still slots open in every class on Saturday. Only intermediate is filled on Sunday. Putnam also has a new surface. Been there twice this year. Very good.

Steve

now that's what I call a ramp!  8)

 (-P)

I keep telling myself I need to get my RS250 out for a track day yet this year....but the year is 3/4 over already.... :'(

The ramp is 3 pieces, and each piece folds in half so I can store them in the van with the bikes  8)

Pulled carbs today on the TZR, after I got my RZV finally running good from bottom to top of the RPM range .....
.....(pulled carbs about 4 times in the past 3 months) ....changed the RZV ignition curve with the Zeel also.
Anyway... TZR
I have seen carbs in much worse condition, but it definitely had not run for quite a few years from the way things looked.....
Into the sonic tank they went after a strip down
195/200 mains and 20/17.5 pilots.....power jet had no hole.....

It lives....
After I warmed it up I took it up and down my road and ran it through 1st and 2nd..... runs pretty good considering it was off the bottle and no battery....air box....or seat....

youtube
https://youtu.be/Eg3Kxl0l8uE

Good result! Sometimes the luck of the draw works out, that motor sounds great. 8)

Happy for you, Busa. Weather here slipped back to summer, so I'm guessing it was a good day for you to test.

Let's hope we get lucky this Fall. You know, low humidity, highs in the upper 70's. Lots of time for roads and tracks.

Steve

 (-P) Thanks for the kind words guys.
I am happy it is running as well as it is for sure.
Buying it as a non runner could have meant almost anything, but it sounded from the description, it had been sitting too long as the reason for not running.
As we all know, it needs to be rebuilt soon before I am forced to rebuild it with even more parts to replace, from serious damage.

I did take it out for a very quick ride, and although it ran perfectly fine, I was not really impressed.
I know it needs attention to run and ride as it did new, but I was hoping it would be more TZ like than RZ like.
Don;t kill me here.....but at this point I would prefer to ride my VJ23 before this....

Time will tell

It still have the stock cdi?

My 3xv r racebike  fitted with 36mm carbs  jackal exhausts ,ported cylinders tightened squish and Avgas heads and a sugo cdi was  pretty slow.
I was scratching my head for a while .
When I put it on the dyno it was  only making 45 hp  :-\.
Switching cdi immediately  got me over 60 hp and some fettling got mid 60s .
It turned out my sugo cdi was either faulty or someone had rebadged it  🤬.
Just something to keep In mind 😉.

It still has the 3XV-10
Bike runs good, and it's not really a HP thing....more just how the bike feels/handles on the road.
I know it all can be changed to make it a great track bike....but I will only use this one on the street , and want to keep it reasonably original.
Since it is so original already.

It all may change when I eventually dig into it for a full nut and bolt clean up/rebuild.

To be truthful with myself though....I should have held out for a 4DP....

You might want to jet up if you do decide to fit a more fiery cdi. It will soon nuke itself to bits on those jets!

Dan

Yes, I was surprised to see stock jetting in the carbs.
But I am guessing since the airbox is so restrictive, and that the pipes have the JMCA tag instead of being track only.....it doesn't need more fuel.
It seemed quite fine as set up....but if I do decide to unrestrict more, then the carbs will be my biggest enemy to gain control.

Quote from: maccas on September 16, 2019, 02:40:34 PM
You might want to jet up if you do decide to fit a more fiery cdi. It will soon nuke itself to bits on those jets!

Dan

Dan, may I ask why you say that it would be borderline jetting with a better CDI? Those are stock jets and I think he's around sea level(?) so it should be fairly safe with say a sugo box?

Quote from: busa1300 on September 16, 2019, 02:17:18 PM

Bike runs good, and it's not really a HP thing....more just how the bike feels/handles on the road.

To be truthful with myself though....I should have held out for a 4DP....

Usually a bike just feels right or not when you get on it. Never ridden a vj23, have ridden 21's,22's, NSR's, KR's and Rs's though and the 3xv always felt more 'right' haha . I thinks it's a very subjective thing, a little like feeling you're riding 'in' a bike or 'on' it :))  I think comparatively the 23 has more development behind it as well as more sophisticated suspension?

I did do a complete rebuild of the VJ23 suspension with all new bearings throughout, along with new tires (Continental ContiAttack SM Supermoto Tires)
So...I'm sure that if I do the same to the TZR it will be an improvement to some degree.
It took a while for the VJ23 pink and purple to grow on me, I'm sure I'll learn to like the black frame on the TZR eventually as well as it's other traits.

NLA parts...I will need some exhaust gaskets....as well as quite a few other bits...
But just looked and they are unavailable.....any other outlets or options for these?
3XV-14613-10-00 Gasket, Exhaust Pipe

I'm pretty sure that's just the springy copper gasket. It's likely that your aftermarket pipes don't even use that gasket (usually just a flange). Either way that gasket never wears out, I re-use them infinitely but add a thin smear of yamabond on both sides. I hate 2 stroke leaking out there. If you really need new ones then the CruzinImage gasket set has a 2 of those copper gaskets that are a pretty good copy.

https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/11/14/yamaha-tzr250-3xv-engine-gasket-set/

The ox exhausts are proper race exhausts, don't be fooled by the jmca badge. They're capable of making mid 60's and beyond horsepower.

The stock jets are set up for a restricted motor that isn't making any power at the top and restricted carb rubbers too.

When i ran with the airboxes and similar pipes I was up around 320/330 on main jets and 55 powerjets too. This was with an 80 or 100 main airjet i think. So with a smaller main airjet you may need smaller mains, but not as low as stock.

Dan

Agree with Dan.

The fat OX pipes are really nice.
I had them mounted on my first 3XV with R cylinders blessed with the touch of M77 - custom porting with only 190* exhaust port but a lot of work on the aux. exh. ports to make them larger.

With the 28mm carbs, upper airbox lid mod. , those cyls. std. VAJ for 91R model, was using around 290-300 on one cyl and 330-340 on the other, with the needles dropped a notch.

This worked good at the track - but quite rich on the road where chances for full throttle in longer periods are not so good.

Just my 5cent.

Congrats, very nice bike.

Busa- I echo ybk's recommendation for the CruzinImage gasket set. Their exhaust gaskets are fine..if you need them. You might want to get cylinder base gaskets from gasketguru.com. Dan Maccas shows a lot of restraint in not promoting his own shop here on the forum...so I'll do it for him.

My 3xv has a rubber o-ring inside each pipe. They are Dog Fight Racing Stainless units. I still use RTV there to keep things tight.

If you are after standard style exhaust gaskets Norbo on rdlccrazy does them, they are the same as the 350yvps ones. They work fine for me and my "augmented" Martin77 flanges.

Thanks for all the help guys
After I find all the missing parts for the bike, I should have a list of all the parts I will need to redo the bike.
Then it will probably sit until after I recover financial from the Winter holidays, before I begin the actual project and a thread on it.

Yamaha shows that the SP uses a different exhaust gasket than standard R or RS.....
3XV-14613-10-00 Gasket, Exhaust Pipe    It has a 10 in part number for SP
The ones listed are for standard pipes I would guess.

No idea what the difference is between the two?

After looking at parts diagrams....the R-RS have one exhaust gasket, where the SP has two per cylinder.
The ones I need go between the flange and head, which appears to be larger than the standard mounting area...
Not completely sure, as will be the case with 3XV's until I learn more.
Could be an O-ring on the pipe and the cylinder side I guess also?

Do you intend to go back to stock pipes or keep the OX pipes?

Will keep the OX pipes, finding the correct SP pipes/flanges would be too much trouble and expensive to ship...And I prefer the bit of performance they will give, whether I totally restore or go fully unrestricted.

There isn't a gasket used when fitting OX pipes. They have 2 o-rings in the pipe that seal onto the ally exhaust flange, then the flange just bolts straight into the cylinder. Most people just use a high temp silicone on the joint between flange and cylinder.

The two gaskets listed in the parts manual are for the SP cylinder to stock exhaust adaptor pieces. You don't need either of those gaskets.

Dan

Thanks for that information, that should be easy to take care of then  (-P)

Bike will be undergoing a full rebuild....there is water in the trans....hoping/guessing waterpump seal went bad.
Lost a bit of water in radiator as well....Trans started to make a bit of noise, luckily I was only going around the block so hopefully trans is OK.
At least the engine itself is still OK  :o

Also noticed...
My powervalves were moving/floating side to side while bike was running....
Bushing worn too much?
Simple to replace?

The problem is that in (new) stock conditions the PV bushings are a bit to far off (is that a good wording?  :-\). You can improve the situation when having the barrels pulled with cuting off approx 0.2mm from the threads of each side...

Yeah as juergen said they all do that. There is end to end float that cause quite a rattle, more so on the bottom cylinder. I have added shims inside the end caps which I think helps. New seals help a little bit as well.

thanks  (-P)
That is good to know it is somewhat normal and my bike doesn't have another expensive issue.

Have a parts list made up for Megazip, to get my trans pulled and all new seals/gaskets to get waterpump seal changed.
Head seals also will be ordered so I can pull heads first and see what the cylinders look like.
If all is well, I will pull the trans to get at the waterpump shaft and seal....and then try a test ride again....with correct air box filters this time.
If there is a problem, then I'll bolt heads back on and make another parts list for my Christmas present to myself. (pistons/rings/crank...)

On another note....
My flasher is for 3 prong wiring...but all the flashers I see available for a TZR is only 2 prong....?
Parts book shows SP has it's own number for a flasher....but pictures still look like only 2 prong .....
Had a LED flasher  that blinked about 100 times a second....another item in the trash...

Busa - Shipping expense from Japan is just plain absurd. Before you make an order to Megazip, check with your local Yamaha dealer, first. Take those part numbers and let them check their warehouses. You won't pay any shipping and the price per part is usually close to Megazip. No, their computers won't show TZR parts, but I've had a 65% success rate with my local parts guys.

Good Luck.

Steve

Quote from: Steveog on September 21, 2019, 08:14:21 PM
Busa - Shipping expense from Japan is just plain absurd. Before you make an order to Megazip, check with your local Yamaha dealer, first. Take those part numbers and let them check their warehouses. You won't pay any shipping and the price per part is usually close to Megazip. No, their computers won't show TZR parts, but I've had a 65% success rate with my local parts guys.

Good Luck.

Steve

That is always the first thing I attempt..... (-P)
I cross referenced part numbers, and there were parts I could not get here in the states that I wanted to change.
So, since I had to get a few parts from Japan, I figured I would get them all at the same time from the same place for the same amount of shipping, as just a couple small items.
Getting parts through dealers here I still end up paying taxes....
Plus they are all in stock with Megazip, where a few parts were not in stock at just one place, with the other options I looked at.
I figured if I have to pull the trans/clutch, I might as well do the entire trans/clutch up right, and not have that to worry about again  (-P)

My local Yamaha dealer has no concept of parts discounts, in order to use them $$$

After my RZV, this will still be way cheaper in the end no matter how I get everything I need.

Steve, I know you use your bike only for the track, but does your wiring harness still have the turn signal flasher connection?
If so can you tell me if it is 2 or 3 prong, and what the color of the wiring is
Thanks in advance  (-P).....Glad you got your flange welded, I was thinking there had to be a fab shop/machine shop/body shop that could weld close (-P)

2 prong, brown and brown/white.

Yes, Busa. If your paying the same shipping costs for all your parts, then getting everything you need from MZ makes sense. I know you been around the block a few times with refurbs. Certainly more than I have, just know what I've been through. Trying to help. Definitely not questioning your thinking.

My Yamaparts Guy is an Ex-TZ Racer and knows a few tricks to tap the Japanese warehouses, but MZ seems to have some stuff he can't get.

Glad ybk jumped in on your question. I have stripped a lot of my loom, but some of it is still intact. I have some connectors left over.

I knew I could get the flange welded up, it was the "On-call", same day, Saturday service with a guru that seemed supernatural.

Thanks

Steve

Thanks for your input guys.
I've been around the block, but TZR's are new to me so will take in all the info I can.
Got a set of lower mileage rotors swapped on it, and a new battery....which will stay in the box until I open up the trans.
Looks more complete day by day....This turn signal flasher issue has me stumped at the moment, as the wiring on the bike looks totally factory with this 3 prong plug.....but no correct flasher to get it all working  :-\

The flasher I posted was from my spr, just checked the early rs and it has the same connector but it has a 3rd black wire. The flasher unit is also slightly larger and it accomodates the 3rd wire from the connector (3 pins)

Quote from: ybk on September 23, 2019, 03:12:15 AM
The flasher I posted was from my spr, just checked the early rs and it has the same connector but it has a 3rd black wire. The flasher unit is also slightly larger and it accomodates the 3rd wire from the connector (3 pins)

Thanks  (-P)

I have
Brown
Brown/white stripe
Black
Wires....
Wonder if someone possibly changed the plug end with different type of blades/connector....
My wire looks shorter than the pic you showed of your SPR.

Did you say that the bike came with some LED flashers fitted? If so, I'd imagine that the flasher unit has been changed to one better suited to the led flashers? I'm working on a 92 SP myself at the moment, would you like me to get you some details/pics of the stock flasher unit? Pretty sure it's a common unit so should be easy enough to source a good used spare.  (-P)

Yes if you could that would be very helpful, as the shop manual and parts manual pics are not that great.
That way I will be sure it's going together as original  (-P)

Pics with Id numbers etc.:

 (-P) Thats what I need
Time to search for cheap Yamaha wiring harness to chop up for that plug....Or find a new copy of same design.

Thanks, for the pics  :)

No need to chop up! Connector available here:

https://kojaycat.co.uk/epages/950000457.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950000457/Products/%22ML-3%20Way%20Black%20Connector%22

You may even find the same connector in the US somewhere using this link as a guide.

Dan

Ooo hang on, not sure that is the right connector. Sorry! Worth checking the kojaycat site though. Looks very similar!

Dan

It is just a standard 2.8mm 3 pin plug, Dan, so the KojayKat one should be fine I reckon (my pic shows the smooth side, the loop is on the other side, and the tang bit is on the relay itself). Doubtless you could find the same japanese style connectors in the States though, Busa. The FB222M relay itself seems to be used on a few other Yams too (and other vehicles too I expect), but I only found one on ebay last night - in Spain. Probably worth a search of US ebay and or other similar sources?  (-P)

Thanks again guys  (-P)
I thought about just a connector, but I need the flasher too.....as well as a better battery plug in.
The battery terminal plug I have has been cut into and spliced, so looking for one of those also.
I found a SR400 1JR harness that has the correct flasher terminal with all it's extra wire, a flasher, and a battery plug that look identical to the TZR.
Less than $10 at the moment.....Might go that route and get all the wiring issues solved at once  :)

I will have my wiring issues taken care of as soon as I get my next box from Japan.
I got one today with a ton of bolts, a few other 3XV bits, some VJ23 parts, and....a set of SPR cases.
Never know when the worst may happen.....so I grabbed this set pretty cheap......(looks like water got into a cylinder and froze the crank)
Are the SPR cases the same as the SP cases?.....the SPR have the extra oil holes like the SP, are there other differences of any kind?

91 / 3XV 15100-00 are R cases
93 / 3XV 15100-02 are R and RS cases
91 / 3XV 15100-10 are SP cases
95 / 3XV-15100-12 are SPR cases....so there must be some differences....
at least the 00 and the 10 as they were both produced at the same time...
maybe the 12 was the replacement for the 10.....?

Actually I see that the 93 SP has the 12 case as well...

Busa - I'm speaking from reading the Forum, but I believe the 3xv cases are universal. They are also used on the TZ.

This makes the 3xv an excellent candidate for extreme modifications, using TZ cylinders, heads, etc.

I know that's not your goal, but picking up SP/SPR cases in decent shape was a solid "get".

I have a front and rear cages that will be available this winter. Great shape. Need paint only. PM if they are of interest.

Steve

Universal as in parts from each can be bolted together in the same way if swapping parts.
As  a TZ crank will fit in a R or an Sp or an SPR....yet all 3 have different part numbers for cranks
There were different part numbers for the same year with cases, I was just wondering if there were more things differing the cases besides the oil holes.

Looking for tell tale signs of originality....as these get to be worth more and more, those small tell tale signs could mean a difference in value.

Cages...like the framework holding the fairing and tail on?
Thanks for the offer  (-P)
The ones I have are good, and the bike came with an extra tail framework for footpeg mounts with rear pegs. (but the SP has a different rear cage with no mounting lugs for the pegs which is on the bike)
I could use some better bodywork on the tail.....My only option at the moment is to repaint what I have until I find better original paint parts...

This might be a pointless question I know....but I am very OCD....sorry guys

Time to dig in on the trans, get the water pump seal and all the other seals replaced. Soda blast the covers and clutch.....and do some general cleaning.

Back at it tomorrow to pull trans and get pump pulled apart. 

Once inside the tranny, Busa be sure to clean the oil filter. Mine had collected a bug and other crap.

I hear you about alternate part numbers and speak only from what I've read in other reports about the 3xv cases being universal.

There's a project thread by Paul here in which he adds TZ cylinders, pistons, heads and possibly crank to his 3xv. It was a street bike, but made 70hp. There's probably more vital info in that thread than my memory.

Good Luck.

Steve

 (-P)

Trans out, and water pump pulled
Culprit of problem has been removed...
Now time for a good cleaning of everything
Trans looks to be in excellent condition luckily, and all bearings seem very good still.

Quote from: Steveog on October 09, 2019, 04:30:02 PM
Once inside the tranny, Busa be sure to clean the oil filter. Mine had collected a bug and other crap.

I hear you about alternate part numbers and speak only from what I've read in other reports about the 3xv cases being universal.

There's a project thread by Paul here in which he adds TZ cylinders, pistons, heads and possibly crank to his 3xv. It was a street bike, but made 70hp. There's probably more vital info in that thread than my memory.

Good Luck.

Steve

I now own that bike :-)

HA. You own them all, Phil. Seriously, are the 3xv cases universal to all models and also TZ's. Of course, the SP crank drops into the 3xv1. Mine works and gives great confidence.

Busa - Pattern seals can be used in most applications. Probably available locally at a bearing company. That water pump seal though is better acquired through Yamaha. Ybk advised me, "that the oe Yamaseal has an additional lip and made specifically for the 3xv." I was able to get mine through my local Yamadealer. Paid retail, but shipping was free. Let me know if I can help.

Steve

Quote from: busa1300 on October 09, 2019, 03:03:37 AM
Soda blast the covers and clutch.....and do some general cleaning.

Got myself a soda blast setup now as well so lining up some parts to do. When you get round to it do some before/afters  8)

Quote from: Steveog on October 10, 2019, 12:50:43 AM
HA. You own them all, Phil. Seriously, are the 3xv cases universal to all models and also TZ's. Of course, the SP crank drops into the 3xv1. Mine works and gives great confidence.

Busa - Pattern seals can be used in most applications. Probably available locally at a bearing company. That water pump seal though is better acquired through Yamaha. Ybk advised me, "that the oe Yamaseal has an additional lip and made specifically for the 3xv." I was able to get mine through my local Yamadealer. Paid retail, but shipping was free. Let me know if I can help.

Steve

Thanks Steve, but I already have all the seals/o-rings and gaskets for this particular project.....although I forgot the seal for kick start. :'(
Going to cross part number and see if a Yamaha sold in the USA has the same number.



As far as TZ parts go.....I am going to work on getting a complete bike instead.... 8)

Quote from: ybk on October 10, 2019, 01:26:01 AM

Quote from: busa1300 on October 09, 2019, 03:03:37 AM
Soda blast the covers and clutch.....and do some general cleaning.

Got myself a soda blast setup now as well so lining up some parts to do. When you get round to it do some before/afters  8)

I have some of past projects.....was going to blast my clutch and cover today but my hose is plugged solid from old soda....

That's satisfying 8) Blasting is really the only way to get this stuff clean. Soda gives a nice finish.

My seal for the kick start shaft should be here by Tuesday.
So I'm making sure everything else is ready to go when I get the seal.

Waterpump shaft had corrosion on the seal area, which I am guessing is what ate the seal up.
After cleaning the shaft best I could....it still looked bad, so luckily the SPR crankcase I got had the waterpump still in it.
Pulled that one out, and it was in much better shape, so i cleaned it up and used it instead.

Everything is as clean as it is going to get this round of rejuvenation.
Pulled heads and cylinders looked good still, so i put new seals in and bolted them back up.
Also found my powervalve cable was sitting cocked in its hole, and wore a mark in it.
Luck found me again, as I had a spare powervalve motor with the cables still on it for a quick replacement.

Hopefully Tuesday or Wednesday, I can finally take it on a good run and see how well it works .

The plating around the exhaust ports looks like it's worn down to the point of needing a replate. The coloring in the picture it looks lighter than the rest of the cylinder wall that doesn't look as worn down.

It will get all new bottom and top end when I pull it all apart for its rebuild. And I will get cylinders sent out as well.
Just trying to get it running now as a complete bike, so I can get a quick feel for it before the snow finds its way here. I have another bike that I was planning on doing a full rebuild on first, but I didn't want the 3XV2 just sitting and not able to be run....needed to see what it needed before throwing more $$$ at it.

You didn't ask, but I highly recommend Powerseal In Pennsylvania. They did my cylinders. One of them twice. Precision work. Not as expensive as others. 10 day turnaround. A bit less than $400 USD for both cylinders (plating, honing and port chamfering).

Rick may be right, but try to get a bounce light under the cylinder for better imaging and more help from the Forum. What's a bounce light? A solid white surface that reflects a direct light from under the cylinder, giving a softer, more even light helping to analyze the honing grooves.

Of course, you've been down this road and can make your own qualified judgements, but getting help from the experts here sometimes requires more attention to the photography. (Lesson learned by error, error and trial). Your cylinders may be just fine as they are. Good to have back-up opinions, though...some from using and modding these bikes for almost 15 years.

That photography opinion is not directed specifically at you, Busa. Just an opinion from one with a 50 year career in photo/videography. That said, "You've done a great job documenting your build."

Good luck on getting that first ride in before rotten weather strikes. We're in the same state, but often different climates. I'd love to ride NCM this weekend, but...I also dream of 36mm carbs this winter. Can't afford both.

My best.

Steve

 (-P)
My phone camera burnt out after it went in the washer still in my pants pocket many months ago.
Just started using a 15 year old Sony camera that I found while cleaning out a drawer, as my wife said I can't use her phone anymore (grease and oil)
It works, but pretty ancient as far as focusing/lighting tech goes....

Cylinders....I'll get a better look when engine comes apart and I get them soda blasted.
With the mileage on the bike I should get them redone regardless though....like the crank, even though bearings may be ok....they are ready for replacement I am sure (new crank)

It's a long term keeper, so it will get done right, instead of cutting any corners to save $$$ for some future profit when selling.
Also being done properly means I can hammer on it while I use, it without much concern about making it back home.  :))

Still waiting on one simple, cheap part to get bike back up and running.
Since I can't do anything on the bike, I figured it was time to try and get a title today.
I think it went OK.....They took my $$$, and I doubt they want to give it back.....so hopefully in about 2 more weeks it will be legal.  C:-)

My concerns were.....
Correct serial number
Correct year
Correct model
Correct mileage

But I think they did it right.  (-P)

It's together again.
This time I actually got to ride it more than a mile around the neighboring edition from me. (only 11 kilometers today)
Starts great
Shifts great
Clutch feels good even with the close ratio trans


Runs great, pulls to redline, but has a bit of a hiccup at 7500-8000....then goes on up.
Went through my favorite sharp corner near my house and went faster than I had on any bike so far.....but thought I felt a bit of rear slip.
Probably need to check the dates on the Alphas that are on the bike, look good but could be old by now.
Everything works except turn signals.....but I have the solution to that on it's way.
Only issue I have electrically is the oil light is always on....until I put bike in gear and it goes off like the neutral light...??

Some proof of completion.....

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/DSC06327.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/MWYM)

Oil light will stay on when in neutral. It's a Yamaha thing it's like a reminder type of deal.

Outstanding, Busa. It was a great day for a test ride. You must have busted ass to get your bike ready to ride. Impressive.

Glad you discovered the beauty of the 3xv before wet leaves F'd up our roads. It's handling is telepathic. It gets even better with the suspension dialed in. Hard to believe?

Yes, new tyres would be good if your's are feeling a bit "loose" on the street. I like Dunlop's (Q-3+), but Phil M. raves about Continentals...for the track. Others will offer their options. ybk loves Bridgestones. Seems that great chassis works with just about any top grade rubber.

That oil light reaction seems to be normal. Sort of a safety check. If the light doesn't go off when kicking it into gear, time to stop and check the oil tank.

Tomorrow could be the last "summer day" of 2019. I'm going to button up my 3xv and "warm it up". Hope you get a chance to ride.

Steve

 (-P)
Thanks for the info guys....glad it's a normal thing with the oil light.
Doubt I will do much more to the bike, other than get new brake lines, pads, and rebuild the calipers and masters.
Keep it in one piece and running, while collecting parts for rebuild....(3XV-80+SPR complete airboxes) take care of bodywork....get it out on the road for people to see.

Weather....cold today but dry
No riding Saturday, going to take my granddaughter to an IFly center in Chicago for indoor skydiving for her birthday (high of 67)
But Sunday looks like a good day (high of 65) to get some more kilometers on the TZR before I drain the carbs for the season.

Keep em smoking as much as possible  ;D

Thanks for everyone's input up to this point.
It makes a world of difference when I can usually find my answers just by asking  (-P)

Rode another 30 kilometers today.....not much I know, but I didn't want to get too far from home.
Still runs good....but at one point I had come to a stop, and noticed a large amount of smoke coming from the right side pipe...(wind going off to that side)
Initially thought my crank seal had let go, so I started heading home......but when I got to the next stop, the smoke had stopped....
Thinking that the pipes had a lot of crap in them, and they finally got warm enough to burn some of it out.
Checked trans oil level, and had not changed so.....I'll keep and eye on that issue.
I do have some oil leaking from my rear shock though...so, that will need a rebuild when everything else is getting worked over next year.  :(

Yeah long rides can do that to the carbon in the pipes, usually then the smoke just kind of 'seeps' out the back.

Did you get the last round of SPR airboxes on yahoo? I see there's also a -80 and -70 on there now

I'll take it out hopefully tomorrow for probably the last ride of the season, and burn off some more....getting cold/rain.
I have a home project to finish that has been put off too long....no more time for play....

I talked to Naomi/Spongebob/Miyabee and her crew at the Barber vintage festival about parts, and she hooked me up with a connection
Scotty hooked me up with the -80

Early Christmas present came today....for the 3XV  ;D

They go together like chocolate and peanut butter.... 8)

Plugged it in and powervalves and lights work, and it started right up.....all good signs
Just need a set of SPR airboxes and I'll be ready to start the tuning process next year....don't want to cut up the original SP airboxes.

Always a joy when stuff work as its supposed too, yes? Good way to start your weekend.

If the SPR upper air-box allows more air flow, do you plan to open up the manifold boots, too. Maybe, I don't understand the SPR mod.

Steve

Here is a SPR airbox intake.... just one huge hole compared to the SP version....box itself are the same I believe.

not my bike.....from a Japanese blog
(http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/f0010016/imgs/b/e/be7b7b48.jpg)

It's legal  (-P)

Well done!

Yan +1. Congrats, Busa.

Steve

Excellent, another one back on the asphalt and avoids the breakers yard  (-P)

Thanks guys  (-P)
It went easier than I thought this time with the title.....they changed the rules a little bit and has cut down on some of the paperwork.

More good news today when I got a box with a like new clutch cable, SPR airboxes, and SR400 wiring harness....so I can now get my battery hooked up as original, and have working turn signal as original.

Got all my wiring fixed up, and now have proper working signals as the factory originally designed.
Some better bodywork on the way, to get the tail looking like it should....

The next big headache will be getting these unrestricting parts to work together with the SP motor.....

Snow on the ground for the past week here....not much motivation or activity.
I did get a TZ cap for my rear brake reservoir though....should help it go a little faster  ;)

Nice progress, satisfying having all the parts come in at a steady pace. Was wondering what you'll do with your existing tail piece, the colouring looked a little off.

Quote from: busa1300 on November 10, 2019, 02:22:06 AM
The next big headache will be getting these unrestricting parts to work together with the SP motor.....

I'm considering hooking up a dual CDI setup. The stock CDI will do pretty much everything including the solenoid 2T pump and air jets, the sugo box will just do the ignition. Probably less incentive for you with a mechanical oil pump though.

The Japanese dudes have done this :

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/3XV-2.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/MnZz)

I have been digging around in various Japanese blogs, with guys who have 3XV's that are looking for more HP.
But have not found any secrets yet on my particular combination of bike and parts yet.
I think I would go with a Zeel before I would try using two Ignition boxes though....It will be a challenge to get it running good enough to get it on a dyno for better direction, no matter what route I take.

The zeel is the only way to go on ignitions in my opinion.  (-P)

The dual ignition set up would only really be relevant if you were using the later solenoid controlled oil pump and wanted to keep that set up rather than running pre- mix or the early cable controlled pump.

IE: it's of no real relevance on a 3XV2 as that has the cable operated pump.

My thinking was to let the stock CDI keep operating the air solenoids including the oil solenoids. That way you have essentially a stock bike but with the SUGO advance curve. With the Zeel you lose the air jets, same as with running just the Sugo cdi.

I'm probably missing something..

Quote from: ybk on November 20, 2019, 09:21:10 PM
.....With the Zeel you lose the air jets as well same as with Sugo cdi.

..

Are you sure ??? I thought the zeeltronic controlled the air solenoid and also has the capability to control the (electronic) power jet.

The powercurves have been mapped but I'm not sure if the oil solenoids have been mapped. If we could get those decoded then then perhaps the Zeal could run those as well. I'm happy to lend/post my 3xv-60 CDI off as long as I get it back by late spring.

Oil solenoids no control from the zeeltronic. The oil solenoid default position (open) means more oil than necessary at lower revs. Solution keep it at WOT :-)

Sorry I might have chipped in here with a random unwanted comment about oil/air solenoids and power jets.

(http://emoticons.datahamster.com/getmecoat.gif)

Quote from: mellorp on November 20, 2019, 09:41:14 PM

Are you sure ??? I thought the zeeltronic controlled the air solenoid and also has the capability to control the (electronic) power jet.

No sure :( I'm pretty sure the zeel does the air solenoids on RGV's so it should be OK for the 3xv as well. I don't think we have a zeel map that inudes the air solenoids at this stage?

Juergen did map the air jets on the stock boxes when he did all the CDI's so I guess we can map it to the zeel?

Here is the -60 for example:

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/Screen-Shot-2019-11-21-at-10.08.38-AM.md.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/NQFj)

I'm quite intrigued by the dual cdi since I have both already and the cdi connectors are available at https://kojaycat.co.uk. That combined with a spare loom you can make a nice set up without butchering the original loom.

Something like this

http://www.characterdata.co.uk/TZR%20Manual/3xvcurve3.zee

00:
01: PDCI-20V <device ver>
02: 00 <boot ver>
03: 20.020611 <software ver>
04: 0000 <data ver>
05: 65 <static angle>
06: 12000 <rev limit>
07: 30 <delay comp>
08: 1 <pulse per rev>
09: 1 <ign setting nr>
0a: 19 28.0 28.0 24.5 21 18.5 17.5 16.0 11.5 10 10 10 <ign angle #1 TPS 0-33%>
0b: 17 29 24 19 17.5 14 10 10 10 10 15 15 <ign angle #2 TPS 0-33%>
0c: 19 28.5 28.5 25 21.5 19.0 18 16.5 12.5 10 10 10 <ign angle #1 TPS 66%>
0d: 17.5 29.5 24.5 19.5 18 14.5 10 17.7 13.5 10 15 15 <ign angle #2 TPS 66%>
0e: 19 29 29 25.5 22 19.5 18.5 17 13 10 10 10 <ign angle #1 TPS 100%>
0f: 18 30 25 20 18.5 15 10 17.7 13.5 10.5 15 15 <ign angle #2 TPS 100%>
10: 2000 3000 5000 6500 8000 9000 9500 10000 11000 12000 12000 13000 <ign Rpm #1 TPS 0-33%>
11: 2000 3500 6600 8300 9000 9500 10000 10000 11000 12000 12000 13000 <ign Rpm #2 TPS 0-33%>
12: 2000 3000 5000 6500 8000 9000 9500 10000 11000 12000 12000 13000 <ign Rpm #1 TPS 66%>
13: 2000 3500 6600 8300 9000 9500 10000 10000 11000 12000 12000 13000 <ign Rpm #2 TPS 66%>
14: 2000 3000 5000 6500 8000 9000 9500 10000 11000 12000 12000 13000 <ign Rpm #1 TPS 100%>
15: 2000 3500 6600 8300 9000 9500 1000 10000 11000 12000 12000 13000 <ign rev #2 TPS 100%>
16: 10 7 <nr ign points>
17: 1 <enable TPS>
18: 192 <TPS close>
19: 882 <TPS open>
1a: 1800 1900 3100 3200 4300 4400 6100 6200 <duty sol rev TPS 0-33%>
1b: 1800 1900 3100 3200 4300 4400 6100 6200 <duty sol rev TPS 34-66%>
1c: 1800 1900 3100 3200 4300 4400 11200 11300 <duty sol rev TPS 67-100%>
1d: 0 100 100 100 100 100 100 0 <duty sol power TPS 0-33%>
1e: 0 100 100 0 0 100 100 0 <duty sol power TPS 34-66%>
1f: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 100 <duty sol power TPS 67-100%>
20: 11500 <shift light>
21: 70 <kill time>
22: 0 <smart shift>
23: 0 <TCT mode>
24: 0 <ign sw>
25: 0 <advance>
26: 0 <advance 1>
27: 0 <advance 2>
28: 1900 5500 5 100 <power jet 1>
29: 7000 13000 66 100 <power jet 2>
2a: 1 <solenoid output type>
2b: 1 <pv setting nr>
2c: 185 <pv close>
2d: 815 <pv open>
2e: 2 <pv deviation>
2f: 1 <pv test>
30: 8 8 8 8 8 <nr pv points>
31: 100 0 0 30 40 60 80 100 <pv angle #1>
32: 100 0 25 30 40 60 80 100 <pv angle #2>
33: 100 20 30 40 50 60 80 100 <pv angle #3>
34: 0 20 30 40 50 60 80 100 <pv angle #4>
35: 100 30 40 50 60 70 90 100 <pv angle #5>
36: 900 1000 5000 6100 6500 7300 8200 9000 <pv rev #1>
37: 900 1000 6100 6900 7300 8000 8900 9700 <pv rev #2>
38: 900 6500 7500 8000 8500 9000 9500 10000 <pv rev #3>
39: 900 8000 8500 9000 9500 1000 10300 10750 <pv rev #4>
3a: 900 8000 8500 9000 9500 1000 10300 11000 <pv rev #5>
3b: 0 <pv sw>

This thread is going a bit off topic, isn't it?  :)).  A 3XV2 doesn't have any oil solenoids as noted earlier. The oil pump is the simple cable controlled type that receives no direct input from the ignition, but is linked to PV position by cable. 

If using a sugo ignition, the logical thing to do would be to follow the Sugo carb set-up I'd think? Which includes ditching the air solenoids too. The Sugo box replaces air solenoid control function with the powerjet control - the same physical pins on the boxes are used.

The alternative would be to use a Zeel of course, but I think the OP has the Sugo box already to hand so that might have a bearing on choices?

Either way, the main work will be in the setting-up, rather than simply fitting the parts I expect.  (-P)

 (-P) Thanks for the ideas guys.
A Zeel is still a possibility, but I do want to try the Sugo 3XV-80 out first.
Since I will be running SPR air snorkels with the SP airbox, and oil pump, I will not be able to go directly by the kit manual.
I would imagine that using the airbox will need slightly smaller jets/settings, and only fuel going through the jets instead of premix will need smaller jetting as well since the fuel will have less viscosity?  ???? Compared to the kit settings

Thanks for the Zeel program, wish I had 3D of the Sugaya R2.....Zeel only supplies a 100% curve.

And be aware, when going the full SUGO specs you need to run AVGAS as fuel.... :))

Busa - Down here we need to be an "insider" to get AvGas. It is not sold to the general public. We do have a access to 110 leaded Sunoco Race Gas sold only in containers. About $10USD/gallon.

Perhaps someone with proper experience and some knowledge of chemistry can detail the difference. What does AvGas have that makes it a "must" for the Sugo kit? Seems that avoiding pre-ignition/detonation would be the goal of higher octane gas. 110 octane would seem to be a good option.

Steve

I was getting AV gas from a small airport close to work.
The guy told me how to get gas out of the pump....basically fake that you have a plane....had various things you needed to input into the pump like tail numbers and so on....
But that was too much work....so now.....

I have race gas at a pump about 15 miles from me, close to the dragstrip.
I use 20-25% race gas mixed with premium for my RZV with advanced Zeel ignition map, and my VJ23 with the Sugaya map.

(https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=359379&d=1528076484)

So do you carry race gas with you when you go on rides?  >:D because it doesn't sound like you go on very long rides. What would you do if you were on a ride and was low on gas because 99% of gas stations don't sale race gas at the pumps.

I have to admit that I do not carry extra race gas with me when riding my bikes.
And I will also admit I did not buy this TZR to go on long rides.....

I bought this TZR because it is a bad ass little 2 stroke screamer....as well as a long term investment.
If I want to go on a long ride on a 2 stroke I will use my RZV because it's gas tank is about twice the size of the TZR...
.....and a long stroker ride for me is maybe 200 miles...

Or I'll take my KTM so my wife can enjoy some similar madness  :))


(https://www.customfighters.com/forums/imagehosting/125615ba44379b68d8.jpg)

Investment. A 2 stroke. You are having a laugh  :))

Buy it, fix it, ride it, enjoy it. Don't expect to make more than you spend on it......

Anyway soap box away, back to the 3XV2 thread :-)

Quote from: mellorp on November 22, 2019, 10:38:19 AM
Investment. A 2 stroke. You are having a laugh  :))

Long term.....it should be worth more by the time my family has my estate sale.... :))

Quote from: Warwick on November 20, 2019, 11:23:06 PM
 

If using a sugo ignition, the logical thing to do would be to follow the Sugo carb set-up I'd think? Which includes ditching the air solenoids too. The Sugo box replaces air solenoid control function with the powerjet control - the same physical pins on the boxes are used.

If running SPR airboxes, would I basically try to start off with something in between what the Sugo kit calls for and what the stock SPR has for jetting?

Quote from: busa1300 on November 24, 2019, 02:54:05 PM

Quote from: Warwick on November 20, 2019, 11:23:06 PM
 
If using a sugo ignition, the logical thing to do would be to follow the Sugo carb set-up I'd think? Which includes ditching the air solenoids too. The Sugo box replaces air solenoid control function with the powerjet control - the same physical pins on the boxes are used.

If running SPR airboxes, would I basically try to start off with something in between what the Sugo kit calls for and what the stock SPR has for jetting?

In mentioning 'following the Sugo set-up' I was thinking more in terms of the kit slides, powerjets, needles and needle jets really.

Whatever you do in terms of the key internals, the final main jetting, power jets and pilots will be determined by a host of engine and environmental factors too of course, so can only sensibly be arrived at by testing.

The Sugo set-up assumes open carbs and Avgas, so you'll need to experiment a bit to find what works for you if running the airboxes.  It's all part of the fun!  8) 

Got a better tail for the bike....far from perfect, but I can be seen in public now and feel ok  ;)

Yea....picture quality sucks still...too cheap to buy a new phone.

EDIT....better pics....I used wifes phone


(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3116.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/XnQp)

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3119.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/XMr9)

So, Busa. You have a grand collection of 2T's, your shop looks immaculate, you make me proud to be a Hoosier (don't bother looking that up world-wide friends. We don't even know why that name stuck to those of us from Indiana, USA), but...you can't afford a new phone? Hmmmmm.

HA. You know I'm joking, but...I look forward to seeing your work and bikes. "Get it together, man". (Easy Rider, 1969)

Merry Christmas.

Steve

"The 3xv2 looks great."

Quote from: Steveog on December 14, 2019, 03:14:22 AM
So, Busa. You have a grand collection of 2T's,  but...you can't afford a new phone? Hmmmmm.

Well, I have the choice of spending $700 or more on a phone....or $700 on bikes.....
No choice really, as the bikes win every time  :))
Also.....wife, kids, and grandkids drained a large chunk of my projects finances as well for Christmas....
....but making dreams tangible has its price  :)
The smile or scream when opening is worth it though...

Merry Christmas as well.... (-P)


I forgot to say....
I just watched Easy Rider again about 2 weeks ago...
How times have changed

I totally agree. Get the bikes prepped first.

My business computer workstation is from 2008 and I charge clients money for me to use it. (Hope none of them are TZR addicts, reading this at the moment). $2000 for a new box equals a new rear shock and spring, plus wheel bearings.

Guess which choice will win?

I hope you appreciate my jabbing you about your phone-cam is the same as I would inflict on a friend that I've actually meet.

Steve

Yes. The dialogue in "Easy Rider" was laughable even in 1969, but it had a profound effect on my embracing motorcycles as a vehicle of freedom.

Gotta go. "Yeah, I'm hip about time."

Quote from: Steveog on December 14, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
I totally agree. Get the bikes prepped first.

I hope you appreciate my jabbing you about your phone-cam is the same as I would inflict on a friend that I've actually meet.

Steve

No problem, I understand the things I do make little sense at times.... :))

Like tearing apart another bike..... :o
This RGV needs to be back in one piece by spring before I dig into the crank and pistons on the 3XV2



(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3121.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/XN9b)


I did fix the poor quality pics I most recently posted....because I hate unclear pics

Not much going on with the 3XV2 as I have been working on the VJ21.
I did get a pair of Nissin 83mm spaced calipers for the TZR though.
Stripped / cleaned / rebuilt / and front refinished....all for about $50 including purchase cost.
These will hold me over until I get my hands on a set of TZ Nissins with aluminum pistons.

Can you not just order the tz pistons?

Currently unavailable from a few US based places I looked.
Megazip lists them...
By the time I bought 8 pistons it would just as much as a complete set of TZ calipers.

Hi, Randy.

How did you paint/coat your calipers? Mine are being stripped of stock paint (chemically), but "powder-coating" back to stock colors would seem to trap heat in a the brakes...not good. Any tips? Your RD500 Cases are a work of art. Same technique for the calipers?

I'm tempted to leave the calipers bare aluminum. Might be a nice accent/match with rear caliper, but also want options for going "back to black". (AC/DC?)

I've seen a DIY video using only VHT Primer and VHT finish paint. (rattle can). Tempting.

Ceracoat is an option, but my local blasting/coating guru recommended against it for calipers. Same reason for avoiding powder-coating.

Thanks

Steve

I'm getting the calipers and triple clamps on my spr cerakote in burnt bronze. You're over thinking the heat retention thing. Run fresh motoul rbf600 and call it good. It has some of the highest boiling points of any dot 4 brake fluid on the market.

Cerakote was originally used on guns. Pic for color reference.

Rick.

Me? Overthinking things? HA. You know me too well. Loving that color on your parts. Were they powder coated? If not what did you use?

Thanks

Steve 

That is cerakote similar to powered coating but it's not. Google cerakote its a thin ceramic type coating that started out with guys using it on guns. It's starting to become more popular with using it on motorcycles and cars.

Brake calipers triple clamps fork lugs hubs engine cases comes in a variety of colors. Usually it is baked on but they just launched a line of air dry version of it.

I got the idea to use it from the many dirt bike builds using it.

Quote from: Steveog on February 05, 2020, 04:09:49 AM
Hi, Randy.

How did you paint/coat your calipers? Mine are being stripped of stock paint (chemically), but "powder-coating" back to stock colors would seem to trap heat in a the brakes...not good. Any tips? Your RD500 Cases are a work of art. Same technique for the calipers?

I'm tempted to leave the calipers bare aluminum. Might be a nice accent/match with rear caliper, but also want options for going "back to black". (AC/DC?)

I've seen a DIY video using only VHT Primer and VHT finish paint. (rattle can). Tempting.

Ceracoat is an option, but my local blasting/coating guru recommended against it for calipers. Same reason for avoiding powder-coating.

Thanks

Steve

I only painted the bare area that I flattened out, the rest is factory anodize.
I just used some etch prime, then I mixed a bit of color that looked close to the factory color already on them.
Some flattener in the clear, then bake for a short while in oven.....no idea how well it will hold up....kind of an experiment altogether.
Will order some HH pads and braided stainless lines....then if I get some real TZ calipers it will be a quick swap.somewhere down the road.

Thanks, Randy. My calipers have now been stripped to bare aluminum. I'm getting many alternative opinions in how to paint/coat them.

Appreciate your opinion.

Steve

Quote from: SeaR1ck on February 05, 2020, 10:57:30 PM
That is cerakote similar to powered coating but it's not. Google cerakote its a thin ceramic type coating.

I'm familiar with CerKote. My local guys can do it. I'll probably go back to stock black whichever method I choose.

Thanks for the clue.

This is the top clamp i had done in burnt bronze had the lower done in the same color and the brake calipers.

Snow is melting....warmest day of the year so far at 46 degrees.
Sunshine forced me to get the 3XV2 out and see if it would still run after hibernation.
After about 15 kicks, I remembered to put the petcock to prime and it fired up two kicks later.
Took about 3 minutes to get the temp gauge to move....the I put it in gear and on the road.
Took a bit to clear out all the crap in the pipes from warm up....then it pulled to redline just like it was designed to do.
Got about 4-5 Miles from home and remembered I didn't have a license plate on it.....so it was a short trip.

But I feel better inside, and will smile for the rest of the day  ;D

The RGV250 VJ21 SP project is on hold until everyone goes back to work, and life becomes more normal.
So.....First day above 70 degrees, and no rain for about an 8 hour stretch, caused me to get the TZR out again.
The last ride was to short to call it a ride, so this time I put about 70 kilometers on it.
Ran without the slightest issue. There is a bit of a flat spot that varies between 7000 and 8000. But pulls through no problem, and gets better as speed increases.
Seems more like ignition/powervalve seetings with the stock box more than carb problems. It runs so good everywhere else.
Have a set of HEL brake lines that should be here by Friday, and then I can get my rebuilt Nissin calipers on.

Out in the sun....a rare occasion...

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3634.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/FsPm)

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3629.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/FuD4)

Good to hear, Randy. I'm tempted to truck my 3xv over to Posey County. Some of the best country roads ever.

The biggest issue for all us riders is, "we must not put ourselves in the E-Room."

I'm sure you were exhibiting "polite motoring"*, but my goal would be to test mods made for the track. That's pretty selfish.

That flat spot will go away once you change out the ignition box on your SP. Are you still running stock pipes? I'm too lazy to read your threads. Just curious.

There's a lot on your bike to be "unlocked".

My best. Stay safe.

Steve

*Martin77 commenting on proper plug chops.

Quote from: busa1300 on April 08, 2020, 12:16:05 AM

Ran without the slightest issue. There is a bit of a flat spot that varies between 7000 and 8000. But pulls through no problem, and gets better as speed increases.

Check the PV mechanism and cables are moving freely. That sounds like they are snagging then popping open/closed

Thanks guys  (-P)

Is there anywhere I can find out when the powervalves start to open on a 3XV-10 ignition?
I have a 3XV-80....but need to stock up on some jets before I play around with that.

As a side note.....I got my RZ350 out in the sun also.
I have owned this bike for 35 years now....still screams when kicked.

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3610.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/Feeg)

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3613.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/FfNL)

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/IMG_3616.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/F313)

Nice in the sun! The bodywork looks in great condition. The 10 info is in the attached excel file. Check out the 'Sugo Cdi for borut " thread for background. All the CDI's were mapped out toward the end.

Thank you  (-P)
I have a few weeks off work forced by the state, so I will dig into the TZR a little and see what I can do.
Might try playing with the 3XV-80 and SPR airboxes...
Also have some needles on their way for my RZV project, which still needs some final tuning at the bottom end, for more useful stop and go riding.

I might have two more bikes that run properly after all this is over... :o

The post is holding up my progress on the RZV....
But I did get my HEL lines on the TZR as well as the Nissin front calipers. Everything rebuilt front and back along with HH pads....one finger stoppies now. Only issue is that the front pads are bigger and contact more of the rotor....so that is the only part of the rotor making contact with the pads until they get broke in a bit more.


(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/3FF7D812-BF0A-44CE-BEB4-9D7E93FC4E34.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/Fm5j)
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/7E65EDC1-D1CB-457F-BEB2-E3830F000C3B.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/FhXM)

75 degrees in November
But cold is going to be here by tomorrow this time....and snow not far away.
Probably the last time for a chance to ride, and the 3XV2 got the short straw.
Bike has worked without the slightest issue all year, and my 40 mile loop around the lakes and rivers in the area today....will hopefully keep me satisfied for the next 4 months or so.
Over 700km on it this year....not much, but I have other bikes I have to keep limbered up as well.

For a bike that I bought as non running junk....it has worked out pretty good.
One day I'll have all the bits, to do it right.

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/DC50F498-D93D-48B4-A4E3-7EF1E8491331.md.jpg) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/aFa1)

This one certainly turned out nice :) Do you winterize your bikes in some way?

Busa1300 - nice garage and bike collection!!! That is the way to do it for sure. Awesome!
When I'm next in IN I'm dropping by for a beer ;-)

Good question on the over-wintering - is there a good thread on this?

Quote from: busa1300 on November 11, 2020, 12:02:11 AM
75 degrees in November
But cold is going to be here by tomorrow this time....and snow not far away.

Same down here, Randy. It was 82F on Monday. Mid 50's today. Unfortunately, my 3xv is dissembled waiting on a full crank diagnosis. My natural heated workshop is comfortable, however. The 3xv2 is looking good. Hope your ride was joyous.

Here's to a few more good days this year.

Steve

Thanks guys  (-P)
I keep them clean as much as possible after every ride.
The only thing I do with most of my bikes is either drain the tank completely, or put some Seafoam in them.
https://seafoamworks.com/
I keep the garage at about 50 degrees throughout the winter, and if there is any kind of early heat wave....I'll open the garage door and fire a few up just to keep them freshly oiled.

And the garage is always open to two stroke lovers if ever traveling through (-P)

Hope you get your 3XV back together without any issues Steve.
You need a good year where you just ride the bike, and the only maintenance is changing out your worn race tires throughout the year

That seafoam motor treatment sounds like good stuff, do you only use it in the winter lay up?

I use it a few times a year in just about everything that uses gas....just for peace of mind on a cleaner fuel system.
I used it to clean out my throttle body/air meter/injectors in a worn out Mustang GT I bought....cleaned it right out....as well as one of my kids cars.

The spiel refers to it as a " moisture controller" would it have any effect on the moisture/ethonol scenario do you reckon? Think ill get some, so if you add that to ethonol free fuel you could leave the bije over winter with full tank and carbs?

Bulldogboy,
This is suitable for your needs,I put it in my 2 1KT tanks last winter and recently in my recently acquired suzuki burgman 400:
https://www.frost.co.uk/ethomix-corrosion-inhibitor-additive-ethanol-protection/

I always drained the carbs over winter to prevent gumming of the passageways.

Thanks teezer ill take a look.When you say "drained" ( past tense) does that mean you used to drain the carbs, but now ,with this additive you dont have to?

Quote from: busa1300 on November 11, 2020, 08:26:32 PM
Hope you get your 3XV back together without any issues Steve.
You need a good year where you just ride the bike, and the only maintenance is changing out your worn race tires throughout the year

Thanks, Randy. So let it be done.

Steve

Quote from: bulldogboy on November 12, 2020, 07:17:19 PM
Thanks teezer ill take a look.When you say "drained" ( past tense) does that mean you used to drain the carbs, but now ,with this additive you dont have to?

I added ethomix to what petrol remained in the tank (about 5-6 litres) then run the engine to get the mixture into the carbs.
I then drained the carbs with the drain screw on the bottom of the float bowls,then put this back in the tank.

I have always drained the carbs for the last 16 years.

For winter i have been emptying the tank with a vaccum pump, then running the bike dry, but as you say i should really be draining the float bowls. Another member jamie tzr250r was using race fuel, sunoco optima i think ethonol free, was going to get some of that, run it through the carbs leave it in there ,then just drain the tank.

 
Took the Nissin/Triumph calipers off because I finally got my hands on a set of TZ Nissins

Looks real nice 8)

Bike started losing fire in the lower cylinder at idle, and I pulled the carb to see if I could find anything out of the ordinary....and found nothing.
So, since I had a RGV project I was working on the TZR sat.......until today.
Got it up on the table for another look.
One thing I noticed which I need to find info on is one of the ignition pickups looks much further away than the other....?

(https://www.advrider.com/f/attachments/2334aa52-efac-4958-a371-f29724229dfc-jpeg.4613743/)


Too much gap can be a problem on the RZV500R, wondered if it could be a problem on the TZR too?

The pick-up plates have kind of locating 'tangs' on the back of the screw holes to help them locate correctly, but you could loosen the screws and see if there's a little wriggle room to even them out? The first pic looks better. Think I've measured the gap at around .7 - .8mm in the past.

Quote from: busa1300 on February 27, 2023, 01:03:09 AM
Bike started losing fire in the lower cylinder at idle, and I pulled the carb to see if I could find anything out of the ordinary....and found nothing.
So, since I had a RGV project I was working on the TZR sat.......until today.
Got it up on the table for another look.
One thing I noticed which I need to find info on is one of the ignition pickups looks much further away than the other....?

(https://www.advrider.com/f/attachments/2334aa52-efac-4958-a371-f29724229dfc-jpeg.4613743/)


Too much gap can be a problem on the RZV500R, wondered if it could be a problem on the TZR too?

I've got the same lower cylinder issue with my 3XV1. It's driving me crazy trying to figure it out. The carbies have been on and off so many times.

I pulled the pickup off and saw that the bracket was not at a 90 degree angle. So I bent it to 90 and the pickup has the right gap now.
Sadly that didn't solve the problem.
New needle and seat with new base gasket, fully cleaned in the sonic.
New plugs.
Bike fired right up ok, but as it idled the lower cylinder started to quit firing. If I gave it throttle it would fire back up on both cylinders.
And then I heard a bit of tick or almost like gear teeth clashing a few times...

So I shut it down.
Took it off the table.

I have most the parts I need to do a 100% rebuild. Just not the patience at the moment. I had just previously rebuilt the rear cylinder of my RZV after a melt down from carb leaning out because of rust from gas tank.
Have started to lose any interest in 2 strokes all together.... The parts searching really drags things out, as well as the cost anymore.

I'll get to it at some point, but I needed a very simple project to get myself back into rebuilding strokers.

So I bought the most basic and unruly bike I could find.

1973 TS400, with a TM400 top end and some sticky road tires.

If I can't get this one done, it might as well be lights out in the garage.

Reads thread......Google specs of tm400  ::)

Very nice plan you have there.
Can't wait for you to show some progress in a thread somewhere   (-P)

I have looked at hopping up the performance of the ts125erz in my stable, but nothing jumps out. I dont think many options are about. Possible an air-cooled rm?   ???

For now it's just a nice bike to  cruise the country lanes on at about 45mph. Any faster and it's being flogged for little return.....I have the 1kt for that particular task  O:-)

Quote from: busa1300 on May 20, 2023, 01:49:23 AM
I had just previously rebuilt the rear cylinder of my RZV after a melt down from carb leaning out because of rust from gas tank.

Do you think this could have been averted by a CHT and/or EGT monitor? Having four cylinders means more expense, but you may like to consider something like this (https://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Manuals/Vega%20TC-4.pdf (https://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Manuals/Vega%20TC-4.pdf)) or this (https://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Manuals/Vega%20TP-3.pdf (https://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Manuals/Vega%20TP-3.pdf)) which both allow monitoring of four temperature channels simultaneously.

Quote from: busa1300 on May 20, 2023, 01:49:23 AM
I'll get to it at some point, but I needed a very simple project to get myself back into rebuilding strokers.
So I bought the most basic and unruly bike I could find.
1973 TS400, with a TM400 top end and some sticky road tires.
If I can't get this one done, it might as well be lights out in the garage.

That TS400 looks like a great 'vintage supermotard' project!  8) Please let us know how it goes by starting a project topic in the Other Bikes section.


Regards,
James

After untold months of searching for some TZ wheels and rotors for my 3XV2,  I managed to win a couple auctions in Japan.
Date code verified the wheel is from a 4DP TZ250 (3.75x17) as is the set of Brembo floating cast iron rotors. So a basic direct bolt on. Still searching for a 4DP rear wheel (either 5.25 or 5.5 depending on year) This will let me use a better choice of tires when the time comes to get it back on the road/track.
Yea....definitely overkill...

The Yen is drastically down compared to the $ which made the purchase possible with my cheap ass...


(https://advrider.com/f/attachments/img_6159-jpeg.5875975/)

(https://advrider.com/f/attachments/img_6158-jpeg.5875439/)

(https://advrider.com/f/attachments/img_6157-jpeg.5875437/)


And the TM/TS400 is moving along pretty slow, but progress none the less.

(https://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=20465)

Nice score 8) Are those discs spot welded?

That TS is gonna be wild..

Looks like someone didn't like the floating aspect of the buttons.

The rotors are still 100% floating, I believe it is some kind of epoxy to secure the locks for extra insurance perhaps.
Also got my hands on a TZ damper as well...
(-P) The 400 should be a fun wheelie bike if I ever get it done.

Just an update...after seeing this thread opened up recently, I saw it could use a bit of fresh news.
TS/TM400 done

(https://advrider.com/f/attachments/img_7700-jpeg.6815751/)

Found a TZ250 rear wheel, luckily with a matching front from a 3YL for the 3XV2

(https://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;fs=340208;attach=39477;image)

And finished a retro fit of a YZF1000R rear end on my 88 FZR1000, along with some JDM rotors and 100mm spaced Brembos

(https://advrider.com/f/attachments/img_8347-jpeg.7109817/)