The title of this post has some optimism in it. It could end up being "How I broke my bike" or "Still not running right", but I have a clear goal, which is to remove the Japanese market restrictions from my TZR, to make it the road bike that could have been sold on UK shores, maybe a little better. What I'm
not doing is to get the most HP for a track day weapon.
In fairness I could have started a project thread on this bike when I got it, but I didn't know the extent of the problems I would find. Water pump issues was the first and biggest, needing a strip down to remove the gearbox and replace a seal AND set the water pump circlip AND fabricate the missing water pump washer. There's been many other issues, such as 5k idle, but that's all sorted thanks to this forum and the advice & resources section helping me get the carbs clean and back to stock jetting and there's the leaking PV seals and exhaust issue that kept the belly pan liberally lubricated.
My TZR currently puts out just shy of 44HP (see pic), which is good in one way as that's just one pony left the stable next to the designed limit of 45HP (later TZRs were restricted to 40HP). However this bike managed this by going super lean as there was a hole in one intake manifold and, as you can see from the clip, only survived this without a seize by massive over oiling.
Thanks to Gavin, who seems to be good at spotting when these things come up, I replaced the inlet manifolds which came with 2 stage TZ reeds, so I put those in too. I also sorted the oiling as there was a non-standard cable that couldn't be adjusted down correctly until I snipped out some of the sleeve.
I was really ready to say "job done" but there was a "little" niggle. The right pipe was smoking more than the left (now noticeable as I'd sorted the over oiling). Turns out my gearbox side crank oil seal is leaking. This was confirmed by a) too much smoke from one pipe, b) smoke smelt like a worn diesel, c) gearbox oil was uncontaminated but disappearing.
I have to replace this, which means strip down into unknown/untrodden areas. So pulling the crank means I'd be foolish not to have it rebuilt while it's out and an idea came to me. Why not derestrict the bike and upgrade the parts I had to take off to get this crank seal replaced? I'm quite lucky in my bike has Jackal pipes already, so that's a big part of derestriction. It also has Wossner pistons, which I'm sure helped it survive boiling over / running super lean. I'd just put in 2-stage TZ reeds, so I was already going down the path.
A rebuilt R crank would probably be just fine for derestricted power, but an SP crank would definitely be good. So as these can still be purchased, I got one of those (Thanks Andy at Webbs for the 10% forum discount!). Next I got a Zeeltronic programmable ignition (Thanks Sean from The Tuning Works /Borut from Zeel for helping me understanding this, and answering my stupid emails so quickly!!). So now I have a shift light and two switches to change PV mapping and Ignition mapping on the fly. The missing ingredient is port tuning, which we are lucky enough to have Martin J (Martin77) right here on this forum. Also to get the critical squish set right, we also have Dan the Gasket Guru (maccas) on the forum too!
Last off there's an odd restriction in the static pressure intake volume on the upper airbox. My dad helped out with this and there's a thread on a mod to resolve this. http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=7535.0 (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=7535.0) If you look at the lower airbox snorkel you'll appreciate the static volume isn't an issue for the lower carb.
So I'll have all the ingredients for derestriction to make more power,
- Jackal Pipes
- Zeel Ignition & uprated coils
- SP Porting, PV matching & Head work
- SP upper airbox lid
I also have all the ingredients to make the power safe & reliable
- Sp Crank
- Wossner pistons
- Various thickness base gaskets
- This forum ^-^
If anyone is interested in the Wossner pistons there's a Group Buy right now, take a look - http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=7447.0 (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=7447.0)
Next update will come when I start the strip down...
Great setup, looking forward to your results... (-P)
Just a remark: does the dyno have a exhaust extraction system (might be good the operators health... ;D)? And I would recommend to do a let's say 6th gear acceleration to get the power vs. RPM curve...
Quote from: 41juergen on September 09, 2021, 08:17:42 PM
Great setup, looking forward to your results... (-P)
Just a remark: does the dyno have a exhaust extraction system (might be good the operators health... ;D)? And I would recommend to do a let's say 6th gear acceleration to get the power vs. RPM curve...
Yes, the dyno has exhaust extraction - goes to show how far over oiled the bike was :o
I was going to ask the question of what gear, looking at the specs it appears that's closest to 1:1 internal ratio and going up the gears at WOT is no fun to watch or the bike to experience. Agree I'll get this done vs RPM - Thanks Juergen (-P)
I plan two runs for every run to start with (if they only have one lamda sensor) so I can see the air/fuel on each side, but any advice gratefully received. :)
If you'll be using the same dyno place as for the run posted, and will be testing various setups over a number of runs, it would be worth downloading the dynojet Winpep run viewer software and asking the dyno place for a copy of your dyno run files, Rich. That way you can bring the runs up again at home on your own PC and compare different runs again when you have more time to mull things over than you will have when you are paying by the hour for the runs themselves.
You should be able to download it from here. If not I can probably forward you a copy: https://dynojet.co.uk/downloads
It's very helpful indeed to be able to do that after or between dyno sessions to help keep you going in the right direction and keep a track of what worked well and what didn't work so well. (-P)
Commercial dyno operators tend to use 4th for simple power runs I think. I've never thought to ask why? A good compromise between getting the power down without the wheel spinning on the drum and a reasonably quick run up time, maybe?
Edit. Added a few graphs to show how you can select the axis values and use the software to compare runs etc. 1st and 2nd pic are the same run file. First with just power and speed showing, then (2nd pic) with the torque added to the view, and the lower axis changed to rpm. Third pic is just with another couple of runs added to allow comparison of different setups. Really useful when doing any development work. 8)
Quote from: Warwick on September 09, 2021, 09:31:20 PM
If you'll be using the same dyno place as for the run posted, and will be testing various setups over a number of runs, it would be worth downloading the dynojet Winpep run viewer software and asking the dyno place for a copy of your dyno run files, Rich. That way you can bring the runs up again at home on your own PC and compare different runs again when you have more time to mull things over than you will have when you are paying by the hour for the runs themselves.
You should be able to download it from here. If not I can probably forward you a copy: https://dynojet.co.uk/downloads
It's very helpful indeed to be able to do that after or between dyno sessions to help keep you going in the right direction and keep a track of what worked well and what didn't work so well. (-P)
Commercial dyno operators tend to use 4th for simple power runs I think. I've never thought to ask why? A good compromise between getting the power down without the wheel spinning on the drum and a reasonably quick run up time, maybe?
Edit. Added a few graphs to show how you can select the axis values and use the software to compare runs etc. 1st and 2nd pic are the same run file. First with just power and speed showing, then (2nd pic) with the torque added to the view, and the lower axis changed to rpm. Third pic is just with another couple of runs added to allow comparison of different setups. Really useful when doing any development work. 8)
Thanks Warwick. Very nice shape power curves too! Yes, I'll be going back to DoubleTake in Southampton. I may message them to see if they can email me the last dyno run, although that was nearly a year ago but worth a shot.
I'll download the software on my windows laptop - that's got the Zeel software on it too, thanks for the link (-P)
Maybe I'll book them for before and after lunch - so while they're munching on oil sarnies I can trawl through the event's before lunch and have a better idea of what of where to go after lunch. That said, they've done some pretty complex Zeel setups so I doubt I'll be too much help ::)
I did find the VAJ settings (well a close approximation) in the resources section that indicate 2 & 4 open in the early midrange and 1 & 3 open at the top end, all VAJ circuits open at full power. Interesting. (see pic)
I also thought about the gear to use for the pulls and read somewhere that 1:1 internal ratio was best as this is the least internal losses. I think that includes the primary too though, not just the gear ratios. I'll have to do some more research.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 09, 2021, 10:46:13 PM
I may message them to see if they can email me the last dyno run, although that was nearly a year ago but worth a shot.
Good idea. It'd allow you to get a feel for the software. Plus you can plot your runs against revs rather than speed as on the printouts, and view the torque curve yourself, too. (-P)
Using the Sugo ECU, I never did anything with the VAJ stuff on the 3XV.
Be aware, the pic shown in the manual shows the "general" operation of the VAJ only, the detailed data you can find in the excel sheet I have uploaded when I did the CDI testing..
A dyno run should be as close as possible to the desired use of the bike (so either track or road use). For a track, the dyno pull should take as long as the longest acceleration on the track (in time). Some dynojets have an additional eddy current dyno attached. With that, the operator can add load to the inertia load and though can extend the time for a pull. If that is not available, I would use the 6th gear to get the duration long enough... The typical ex temps shall be around 630°C (with the 1,5 mm sensor approx. 200 mm behind piston face), the temp at the end of start/finish straight then will be approx. 650 - 660°C max (depending how you create the overrev with the ignition timing and the carb setup).
The 630°C also correlate well with using the bike on the raod and getting up 650 - 660 °C on the highway..
Quote from: 41juergen on September 10, 2021, 08:22:15 AM
Be aware, the pic shown in the manual shows the "general" operation of the VAJ only, the detailed data you can find in the excel sheet I have uploaded when I did the CDI testing..
A dyno run should be as close as possible to the desired use of the bike (so either track or road use). For a track, the dyno pull should take as long as the longest acceleration on the track (in time). Some dynojets have an additional eddy current dyno attached. With that, the operator can add load to the inertia load and though can extend the time for a pull. If that is not available, I would use the 6th gear to get the duration long enough... The typical ex temps shall be around 630°C (with the 1,5 mm sensor approx. 200 mm behind piston face), the temp at the end of start/finish straight then will be approx. 650 - 660°C max (depending how you create the overrev with the ignition timing and the carb setup).
The 630°C also correlate well with using the bike on the raod and getting up 650 - 660 °C on the highway..
Thanks Juergen. I had not seen that post - this should really go in the resources section, fantastic data!
Good to know the expected ex header temps, this is valuable safety data!
http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=679.msg49929#msg49929 (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=679.msg49929#msg49929)
What's really fascinating is how Yamaha have programmed 0% TPS at high revs to open the PV on the way down, I guess (and I have little knowledge next to others) that this is to reduce CHT. Amazing work in mapping all this out!
Quote from: 41juergen on September 10, 2021, 08:22:15 AM
the detailed data you can find in the excel sheet I have uploaded when I did the CDI testing..
Allen keys are turning.... anyway, just thought I'd post this comparison of a restricted 3XV vs 3XV Zeel (unmodified) vs Sugo CDI, using data from Juergens testing (-P).
I think I'll trim off the sub 6k advance from the Zeel before I go to the dyno, just to be on the safe side.
And it makes a lot of sense to ballpark the PVs as per Phil's thread http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5829.0 (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5829.0) which will be a piece of cake because I can switch between a 0% and a 100% map on the fly.
A good few careful hours with spanners, Allen keys, and correct type screwdrivers, plus some zip ties for ease turns this into that.
I have taken loads of pictures and carefully storing everything.
Couple of tips I found useful.
- Zip ties can help remove exhaust springs and clutch plates
- Remove all the pipes from the rad before trying to get this off
- Removing the plugs means you can turn the clutch by hand
- Use a piece of card as a mounting bracket surrogate so you can remember which sides washers etc go (see pipes in pic)
- Make cardboard templates for holding fixing screws (see pic for fairing fixings)
I took pictures of everything to make sure I could recall angles, routings and general fit.
However I took this picture. Ooops. I think that should be connected with a washer and circlip.... off to the resources section to find out.
yes, washer, wavey washer for tension, and a circlip to hold it (and a rubber boot over it all too).
Quote from: Warwick on September 19, 2021, 07:01:02 PM
yes, washer, wavey washer for tension, and a circlip to hold it (and a rubber boot over it all too).
Thanks! Notice that any part number that does not start with "3XV" is likely to not only be available but a (half) reasonable price.
Washers & clip = £2.97
Any part starting with "3XV" is likely to be GBTLO* and expensive. Oh well I guess I don't need that.
Boot (3XV-1131M-00) - £3.32
Ahem >:(
* GBTLO = Gavin brought the last one
yee i had to buy the wavey washer and there's a flat washer from memory then the circlip , when i got my 3xv it had come apart like that . it was on the top left cyl , so im not sure if the pv can spin and hit the top of piston when running ? because that's the cylinder that had the damage on mine . i like the cardboard drawing thing i will try that (-P)
Quote from: TZRtim on September 19, 2021, 10:47:58 PM
... im not sure if the pv can spin and hit the top of piston when running ? because that's the cylinder that had the damage on mine.
No, there's no real chance of that. (-P)
Quote from: TZRtim on September 19, 2021, 10:47:58 PM
i like the cardboard drawing thing i will try that (-P)
I am paranoid, no.. scared, that I will take something apart and not be able to get it back. But I just take it one bolt at a time :-\
Quote from: Warwick on September 19, 2021, 11:06:27 PM
Quote from: TZRtim on September 19, 2021, 10:47:58 PM
... im not sure if the pv can spin and hit the top of piston when running ? because that's the cylinder that had the damage on mine.
No, there's no real chance of that. (-P)
Agreed, the PV has stops so it'll not spin with this disconnected, it'll just rattle open or closed.. anyway, a few quid in parts and it's all good (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 19, 2021, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: Warwick on September 19, 2021, 07:01:02 PM
yes, washer, wavey washer for tension, and a circlip to hold it (and a rubber boot over it all too).
Thanks! Notice that any part number that does not start with "3XV" is likely to not only be available but a (half) reasonable price.
Washers & clip = £2.97
Any part starting with "3XV" is likely to be GBTLO* and expensive. Oh well I guess I don't need that.
Boot (3XV-1131M-00) - £3.32
Ahem >:(
* GBTLO = Gavin brought the last one
Who is Gavin? When I emailed Andy at Webb's if the centre fairing panel was still available he told me no, but maybe see if Gavin from the forum has a few left?
Is this mystique Gavin a 3XV parts hoarder or something? >:D
What is GBTLO? Too old to understand these abbreviations! :o
Quote from: Dan_152 on September 20, 2021, 03:33:58 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 19, 2021, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: Warwick on September 19, 2021, 07:01:02 PM
yes, washer, wavey washer for tension, and a circlip to hold it (and a rubber boot over it all too).
Thanks! Notice that any part number that does not start with "3XV" is likely to not only be available but a (half) reasonable price.
Washers & clip = £2.97
Any part starting with "3XV" is likely to be GBTLO* and expensive. Oh well I guess I don't need that.
Boot (3XV-1131M-00) - £3.32
Ahem >:(
* GBTLO = Gavin brought the last one
Who is Gavin? When I emailed Andy at Webb's if the centre fairing panel was still available he told me no, but maybe see if Gavin from the forum has a few left?
Is this mystique Gavin a 3XV parts hoarder or something? >:D
Gavin is a near mythical person who has a knack of spotting parts that he may need/may help fund the ongoing costs and may surface with such parts.
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 20, 2021, 08:50:15 AM
What is GBTLO? Too old to understand these abbreviations! :o
O:-)
Ha ha, damn this Gavin character, if you see him let me know.
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 20, 2021, 01:47:45 PM
Ha ha, damn this Gavin character, if you see him let me know.
We're onto you pal C:-)
Lol, i did buy 2 v pieces off Andy, one for me, and one for someone else, ironically, in Japan! He asked me to get him one, and send it out there, when i heard that there was European stock, but none in Japan, i knew it was about to go NLA so when i got this guy in Japan one, i got myself one. O0
Impact driver adapters have arrived so the next step is removal of the flywheel and the clutch, then the wet side engine cover.
I'm hoping for far less drama than last time I took the clutch off with a breaker bar.
Hopes that are not yet dashed - that's the TZR way :-\ (-P)
Did you get that flywheel puller i sent the link for,?
Yep, thanks. And I have a big hammer to match 👍🏻
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 20, 2021, 07:54:27 PM
Did you get that flywheel puller i sent the link for,?
What link was it please Gav?
Bodger's guide to fixing anything.......
......a fucking big hammer......
There are many different hammers for many different uses please specify as I own many hammers myself from finishing hammer to a 20 pound sledge hammer.......lmfao
Using the puller alone would be the bodge Jamie! Hammers are essential
This is a screenshot ,ive wotsaped you the link, fits my 3xvs and KR1S
Quote from: jamietzr250r on September 20, 2021, 11:29:24 PM
Bodger's guide to fixing anything.......
......a fucking big hammer......
There are many different hammers for many different uses please specify as I own many hammers myself from finishing hammer to a 20 pound sledge hammer.......lmfao
I'm going with a 20z - to "tap" the flywheel after I've put some strain into it with the puller. Should pop off, if not, half a turn and try again etc til something breaks (free hopefully)
Heat can also help. Not too much, though. You want the flywheel to be warmer than the crank, but don't want to effect the magnets. The puller shouldn't require a hammer. An impact driver is far more efficient.
If you don't have one, a rental impact tool might be better than putting too much lateral stress on the crank bearings and seals.
Reassembly needs a proper torque wrench of course.
Good luck.
Steve
The flywheel should really pop off fairly easy, no need for hammers etc. I've never had one put up much of a fight, just make sure puller is screwed all the way in, the threads are thin so can strip easily.
I used a pound coin to protect the end of the crank, i used one with the silver centre and gold edge, when the flywheel came free, there was an almighty crack, the centre of that coin had pressed clean out as the flywheel came free! I suppose it would be better to just wind a bolt in to that thread on the end of the crank?
But then i suppose your not too concerned as youll be fitting your nice shiny SP crank 8)
Quote from: Steveog on September 21, 2021, 01:45:02 AM
Heat can also help. Not too much, though. You want the flywheel to be warmer than the crank, but don't want to effect the magnets. The puller shouldn't require a hammer. An impact driver is far more efficient.
If you don't have one, a rental impact tool might be better than putting too much lateral stress on the crank bearings and seals.
Reassembly needs a proper torque wrench of course.
Good luck.
Steve
Thanks Steve - I did get myself an impact driver after the horrors last year of taking the clutch off using a 6ft bar on the end of my torque wrench. I really really hated that and never want to do that again! I have the socket adapter now so I'll give this a go tonight, and a little heat won't go amis! :)
Quote from: ybk on September 21, 2021, 08:06:34 AM
The flywheel should really pop off fairly easy, no need for hammers etc. I've never had one put up much of a fight, just make sure puller is screwed all the way in, the threads are thin so can strip easily.
Gotcha - yes the puller will be interesting, I'll make sure the threads are clean too (-P)
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 21, 2021, 08:12:24 AM
I used a pound coin to protect the end of the crank, i used one with the silver centre and gold edge, when the flywheel came free, there was an almighty crack, the centre of that coin had pressed clean out as the flywheel came free! I suppose it would be better to just wind a bolt in to that thread on the end of the crank?
But then i suppose your not too concerned as youll be fitting your nice shiny SP crank 8)
Oh I'll spend £1 on that, thanks for the tip 8)
Well that was easy ?:-|
Top tips there fellas - spot on every one.
Impact driver Steve - how did I never have one of these!!? No holders required for flywheel nut OR clutch boss(!!)
No hammer needed Karel. I thought I'll just put a bit of tension on this puller then I'll grab some heat... but it just popped off ;D
Add £1 to the rebuild cost Gavin ;)
Nice.
Steve
On the clutch side now. Can't praise this impact driver enough - last time I literally spent over an hour wrangling breaker bar extensions, clutch holder squeezed up so tight I thought I'd break the basket but this time, a couple of blasts and the boss was free. (Still need the old school method to tighten back up but that's ages away, no worries! ^-^)
No clues as to where the gasket came from ;) Full set on order for the rebuild.
Again my cardboard lifesaver.
Last pic - I remember this ::)
So the plan to move the bike back slowly bit by bit to it's usual parked position is progressing.
Couple of questions...
- Woodruff key on the flywheel side looks a little stuck in there. Should this be jammed in or just a snug fit?
- There's some axial play on the clutch shaft, not much about 1.5-2mm, is this expected?
Next steps...
Carbs, Heads, pistons, barrels, remaining plumbing and odds & sods.
Final thought...
Karel says it's easier to split the cases with the engine out of the frame. I don't want to remove anything I don't have to, but he's always been right so far :o
An impact wrench is, hands down, the best tool I've ever bought! (It'll do the sprocket nut and crank end bolt too).
I'm on the fence about motor 'out' or 'in' really. In some ways I find it easier to drop the crank out with the bottom end still held neatly in the frame, but it can be nice to drop the engine out to do other work/checks, and to clean things up properly too. And by the time all the ancillaries/cables and hoses etc. are off, it's a ten minute job to drop the motor out of the frame in any case of course. 👍
Quote from: Warwick on September 21, 2021, 09:03:28 PM
An impact wrench is, hands down, the best tool I've ever bought! (It'll do the sprocket nut and crank end bolt too).
I'm on the fence about motor 'out' or 'in' really. In some ways I find it easier to drop the crank out with the bottom end still held neatly in the frame, but it can be nice to drop the engine out to do other work/checks, and to clean things up properly too. And by the time all the ancillaries/cables and hoses etc. are off, it's a ten minute job to drop the motor out of the frame in any case of course. 👍
Amazing tool. It seems much less likely to damage Allen heads too and it's always 100% square and doesn't go out of true when you add force (-P)
It's the ancillaries/cables I was hesitating about actually! :)
Are those parts laid out on puppy training piss pads??? ;D
If not, apologies, they look like it!
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 21, 2021, 09:22:59 PM
Are those parts laid out on puppy training piss pads??? ;D
If not, apologies, they look like it!
Yes, I don't need them now, been very good lately.
Just saves the carpet and it easy to spot wayward bolts etc.
Ingenious (-P)
Dropping the engine isn't a huge hassle, Rich. Reinstalling it (solo) can be a bit tricky. I use a floor jack intended for raising an entire, small bike. Blocking the engine to be square with the primary engine mounts, then easing it into place. Sorry, I don't have a picture.
Unfortunately, I've had too much practice using this technique, but is good for a one man operation.
Good luck
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on September 22, 2021, 12:33:16 AM
Dropping the engine isn't a huge hassle, Rich. Reinstalling it (solo) can be a bit tricky. I use a floor jack intended for raising an entire, small bike. Blocking the engine to be square with the primary engine mounts, then easing it into place. Sorry, I don't have a picture.
Unfortunately, I've had too much practice using this technique, but is good for a one man operation.
Good luck
Steve
Thanks Steve. This helps!
Some considerations. The bike's on its side stand and I don't have paddock stands to have it square. I also don't have a (suitable) second pair of hands nor a suitable jack and I don't have a suitable place/means of holding the engine out of the bike.
I'll attempt this in the frame and it I get stuck I'll look at the above and switch tactics. (-P)
Not sure if this works for the 3XV, but on the RGV I position the motor on it's nose with the bottom rear engine mount inline with the frame. Wiggle that into place using a long screwdriver, then using that as a pivot swing the motor up at the front and into place. Fix the top rear engine bolt, then remove the long (loose fitting) screwdrive and insert the bottom engine bolt. No jack(et) required !!
Jack can be had from srewfix or toolstation for not a lot. Well worth the money
https://www.screwfix.com/p/hilka-pro-craft-2-tonne-trolley-jack/7504g
https://www.toolstation.com/hydraulic-trolley-jack/p12136
Quote from: mellorp on September 22, 2021, 12:08:41 PM
Not sure if this works for the 3XV, but on the RGV I position the motor on it's nose with the bottom rear engine mount inline with the frame. Wiggle that into place using a long screwdriver, then using that as a pivot swing the motor up at the front and into place. Fix the top rear engine bolt, then remove the long (loose fitting) screwdrive and insert the bottom engine bolt. No jack(et) required !!
Jack can be had from srewfix or toolstation for not a lot. Well worth the money
https://www.screwfix.com/p/hilka-pro-craft-2-tonne-trolley-jack/7504g
https://www.toolstation.com/hydraulic-trolley-jack/p12136
Hmmm, that's not bad prices. Thanks Phil. I'm sure that RGV technique will work thinking about it, but in terms of workshop (oops, garage) upgrades, I'm planning a hoist fixed to a wooden joist to help with replacing the rear shock. Another thread for another day, but belt & braces it could be feasible to provide support for the engine from above too (if only to stop it rolling off a jack :o)
Rich,
If you want, you are welcome to borrow my paddock stands (rear goes under the swing arm flats at the end and I've got the front that lifts by the Headstock. My 21mm pin has now arrived too.
My frame, swing etc are all at the powder coaters so they are just taking up garage space for a good few weeks. I'll be driving from Oxford to Worthing Friday evening. I'll be short on time but could easily meet you just off the M27 or Sunday evening same thing as I'll be doing Worthing>Winchester>Worthing.
Drop me a whats app if it helps.
I would offer my EZlift stand to lower/raise the engine in but mine is currently on it and its also effing heavy to lift in n out of the car and very greasy!
If you ever see a 2nd hand one. They are really nice bits of kit.
New link here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Motorcycle-lift-Motorbike-stand-Eazyrizer-Original-Red-Guaranteed-Life-/254796446309?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=Cj0KCQjwqKuKBhCxARIsACf4XuE9_7MJFqPLST65N4J4VDFquKgj7ye1xCmIs7_Oj2vzHEFU38x6Te0aAoyeEALw_wcB
Well it had to happen. I screwed up big time. :-[
Plan was to get the heads and barrels off tonight but it's gone badly and I need some help.
I got everything off the head, then all the nuts off the head, but the head wouldn't come off the barrel. Never mind, crack on. PV covers and mechanism off to gain clearance to the four nuts holding the barrel on. PV doesn't slide out, but look at that later, crack on. The cylinder bolts were pretty tight but a 10mm ring spanner and a couple of taps and they came loose enough for a socket to turn it.
All apart from 1 nut, and this is how I screwed it up: Ring spanner on, tap tap, then 10mm socket as before, but was still stuck. Try again, stuck. Grab the impact driver and give it a few blasts and disaster. The 3/8ths socket I was using split and has damaged the nut, rounding it so not even the ring spanner can bite on it. I'm so annoyed because I have a proper daddy of a 10mm socket on 1/2 inch drive but I used the stupid weak socket.
Help.
How do I get this nut off?
If the nut is hard to get at currently. leave things as they are and drop the motor out so that you can sort it more easily when you can more easily get at it. (-P)
It's very definitely worth getting a rear paddock stand, or just use suitable blocks or axle stands to hold the bike square upright using the swinger. It's horrible trying to drop the motor on the side-stand. And even worse putting it back in again.
The motor isn't especially heavy. It ls easier to remove with an assistant, but it's pretty easy to do it alone really. If doing it alone, I just remove the front mounts, pop a support under the engine (block of wood or something) and then remove the upper rear mount. It may well not even want go anywhere at this point if the lower rear mount is tight. If you cant lower the front of the motor down with the upper bolt removed, just loosen the lower mount while holding the motor with the other hand to allow you to lower the front of the motor to the ground (onto some sponge or something is always good). Then pop the lower mount bolt out, still supporting the motor and lower the rear of the motor to the ground.
Then pop the kettle on. (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 22, 2021, 08:11:12 PM
Well it had to happen. I screwed up big time. :-[
Plan was to get the heads and barrels off tonight but it's gone badly and I need some help.
I got everything off the head, then all the nuts off the head, but the head wouldn't come off the barrel. Never mind, crack on. PV covers and mechanism off to gain clearance to the four nuts holding the barrel on. PV doesn't slide out, but look at that later, crack on. The cylinder bolts were pretty tight but a 10mm ring spanner and a couple of taps and they came loose enough for a socket to turn it.
All apart from 1 nut, and this is how I screwed it up: Ring spanner on, tap tap, then 10mm socket as before, but was still stuck. Try again, stuck. Grab the impact driver and give it a few blasts and disaster. The 3/8ths socket I was using split and has damaged the nut, rounding it so not even the ring spanner can bite on it. I'm so annoyed because I have a proper daddy of a 10mm socket on 1/2 inch drive but I used the stupid weak socket.
Help.
How do I get this nut off?
It doesnt look completely rounded to me. A good file might be able to take the edges off a bit and create some flat edges again.
Whilst you do that get some more penetrating oil on it if you havn't already and make sure you warm it up before you attacked it again.
If you can find a socket that gets a good grip try tightening a little first. just enough to move it. It might break the hold it has on the thread.
Are you using impact sockets (matt black) or standard sockets? They're not designed to deal with impact.
I have a full set of impact sockets also if needed.
If you get really stuck then kits like this can come in handy. They don't always work though - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Impact-Remover-Pieces-Extractor-Socket/dp/B07RNZBT3F/ref=asc_df_B07RNZBT3F/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=345504185242&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3719114491970996142&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007259&hvtargid=pla-760459423337&psc=1
+1 on both Warwick and Any's comments, Rich.
The extractor sockets are a good investment (but you don't need the whole set). Also, a proper rear stand or even automotive style "Jack Sands" will make engine extraction much easier.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hyper-Tough-2-Ton-Jack-Stand-T42002W-2/48580163?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222222036054905&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10359693274&wl4=pla-1103075658389&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Online&wl12=48580163_0&wl14=jack%20stands&veh=sem&msclkid=257985d5f9d31dec9545e49e5803fc5b&gclid=257985d5f9d31dec9545e49e5803fc5b&gclsrc=3p.ds
Good Luck.
Steve
Quote from: Warwick on September 22, 2021, 08:25:05 PM
If the nut is hard to get at currently. leave things as they are and drop the motor out so that you can sort it more easily when you can more easily get at it. (-P)
It's real easy to get to, it's on the lower cylinder. So that's the forefront of my mind, engine in or out, I need to get the bugger off!
Quote from: AndyYam on September 22, 2021, 08:31:38 PM
It doesnt look completely rounded to me. A good file might be able to take the edges off a bit and create some flat edges again.
Whilst you do that get some more penetrating oil on it if you havn't already and make sure you warm it up before you attacked it again.
If you can find a socket that gets a good grip try tightening a little first. just enough to move it. It might break the hold it has on the thread.
Are you using impact sockets (matt black) or standard sockets? They're not designed to deal with impact.
I have a full set of impact sockets also if needed.
If you get really stuck then kits like this can come in handy. They don't always work though - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Impact-Remover-Pieces-Extractor-Socket/dp/B07RNZBT3F/ref=asc_df_B07RNZBT3F/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=345504185242&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3719114491970996142&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007259&hvtargid=pla-760459423337&psc=1
I've taken your advice here and gone for the extractor set and yes I did use the wrong socket on the impact driver, this is a foul up all of my own making.
Quote from: Steveog on September 22, 2021, 11:49:26 PM
+1 on both Warwick and Any's comments, Rich.
The extractor sockets are a good investment (but you don't need the whole set). Also, a proper rear stand or even automotive style "Jack Sands" will make engine extraction much easier.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hyper-Tough-2-Ton-Jack-Stand-T42002W-2/48580163?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222222036054905&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10359693274&wl4=pla-1103075658389&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Online&wl12=48580163_0&wl14=jack%20stands&veh=sem&msclkid=257985d5f9d31dec9545e49e5803fc5b&gclid=257985d5f9d31dec9545e49e5803fc5b&gclsrc=3p.ds
Good Luck.
Steve
Thanks Steve, a consensus on these extractors is what I've gone with, plus a 10mm walldrive socket too (rated for impact driver), as this shouldn't be affected by the rounded corners.
Thanks for the offers and suggestion on the lifts & stands. I will be going down this route but for now, I need to get this barrel off as priority 1, then work out why the head won't come off, then work out why the PV won't come out. All of this is hanging in the breeze on the lower cylinder so I'm going to focus on that - If I can't get that done, little else matters.
To draw the Powervalve out, the piston crown needs to be fully below the bottom of the exhaust port. This allows you to turn and kind of wiggle the PV out of the left (connector) side. It'll be self explanatory when you've done it once. Both caps need to be removed first, of course.
The head is probably just stuck to the gasket. A few sharp taps on the side of the head with a wooden hammer handle or similar will likely loosen it, but you can take the cyl and head off together and remove the head later of course.
A slightly smaller than 10mm tight fitting old imperial socket tapped on to the nut with a hammer will often allow you to get a stuck nut off if you have any such sockets to hand? Bit of a bodge, so don't beat it to death of course if trying this. Often works well enough though. Those special 10mm spanner 8mm thread cylinder base nuts are NLA from Yamaha I think?
I have a couple of those 10mm cylinder nuts if you need them, Rich. Just PM me your address. 2 X Nuts and shipping will be covered.
Yeah, I know: "I'm Mr. Generous" with an envelop. Don't expect the same deal on a piston kit. HA.
Good Luck
Steve
Quote from: Warwick on September 23, 2021, 12:36:17 AM
To draw the Powervalve out, the piston crown needs to be fully below the bottom of the exhaust port. This allows you to turn and kind of wiggle the PV out of the left (connector) side. It'll be self explanatory when you've done it once. Both caps need to be removed first, of course.
The head is probably just stuck to the gasket. A few sharp taps on the side of the head with a wooden hammer handle or similar will likely loosen it, but you can take the cyl and head off together and remove the head later of course.
A slightly smaller than 10mm tight fitting old imperial socket tapped on to the nut with a hammer will often allow you to get a stuck nut off if you have any such sockets to hand? Bit of a bodge, so don't beat it to death of course if trying this. Often works well enough though. Those special 10mm spanner 8mm thread cylinder base nuts are NLA from Yamaha I think?
Thank you Warwick - you've solved two immediate worries there. (-P) (-P) (-P) I was on the edge of despair for a while and as usual had no idea about these things :)
I do have some imperial sockets so that's a good shout. I also have the socket extractor arriving today and a replacement impact screwdriver (my old one I used for my last project, a ZR50-X1 back in 1986, has long since been lost/stolen/lent & not returned/gifted)
Quote from: Steveog on September 23, 2021, 12:56:38 AM
I have a couple of those 10mm cylinder nuts if you need them, Rich. Just PM me your address. 2 X Nuts and shipping will be covered.
Yeah, I know: "I'm Mr. Generous" with an envelop. Don't expect the same deal on a piston kit. HA.
Good Luck
Steve
PM sent - Thank you Steve. I had no idea these would be NLA. I'll PayPal your generosity in return :)
For info - the TSO site is listing 3XV's again (-P)
http://www.tso.us.com/parts-book/yamaha/0250tzr250/3xv8/3_part_pages/e_01.asp (http://www.tso.us.com/parts-book/yamaha/0250tzr250/3xv8/3_part_pages/e_01.asp)
Also I can impart a useful rebuild tip for posterity - take the mirrors off... it saves head butting them all the time :o
Success. (-P)
Nut extractor worked and the cylinder is free! Thanks Andy & Steve for that tip and a huge thanks to Steve for offering to help replace the mangled nut. O:-)
PV wiggled out just like you said Warwick, and the head came away from the barrel with the butt end of a wooden hammer. Really helpful to know these things I don't know.
I got the second head off too, bit nervous on the upper coolant flange, but the impact driver did it's job well.
First head cleaned up well, the upper cylinder head had loads of smooth carbon buildup, just goes to show how out of sync the jetting was. Marks on the lower cylinder wall, but nothing that can be felt.
The list of parts on the floor is growing..... I had thought about carrying on and getting the next cylinder off and maybe I could clean these up and maybe I could get them in the post to Martin - but stopped. Don't rush. Leave it, take your time & quit while you're ahead!
As Warwick says - put the kettle on (-P)
Yes a rubber mallet/hammer is good to have. And I use my plastic hammer a lot.
Other useful tools bearing / race installer kit.
Blind bearing puller kit
Quote from: SeaR1ck on September 23, 2021, 10:40:08 PM
Yes a rubber mallet/hammer is good to have. And I use my plastic hammer a lot.
Other useful tools bearing / race installer kit.
Blind bearing puller kit
If this near disaster has taught me anything Rick, it's have the right tools. Using a non-impact socket on that nut... nearly bought the farm. Everything I'm looking at say "woooo NLA wooooooo" at me ;D
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 23, 2021, 09:04:18 PM
Don't rush. Leave it, take your time & quit while you're ahead!
Yes. Wisdom for us all. It's always better to stop on a success, than lose sleep after ignoring your own good instincts.
Nice work, Rich.
Quote from: Steveog on September 24, 2021, 01:43:48 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 23, 2021, 09:04:18 PM
Don't rush. Leave it, take your time & quit while you're ahead!
Yes. Wisdom for us all. It's always better to stop on a success, than lose sleep after ignoring your own good instincts.
Nice work, Rich.
Thanks Steve :D
Top cylinder came off without dramas (right tools work better than the wrong tools).
Pistons, manifolds, reeds and top engine mounts all off.
Next steps... Clean up everything ready for posting barrels/heads/PVs to Martin77 (-P)
While that's going on I need to clean up all the threads on everything. Lots of white crusty stuff to get sorted from bolts, studs and threads in the castings. Then I'll think about splitting the case. :o
Wow....
My bikes only had the carbs off and the fork seals done (fairing excluded) since I've owned it, that's it!!!!
Quote from: jamietzr250r on September 24, 2021, 10:28:14 PM
Wow....
My bikes only had the carbs off and the fork seals done (fairing excluded) since I've owned it, that's it!!!!
Thanks Jamie :) I was planning on adjusting the chain and that would have been it... but I bought a needy example it seems! My bad. ;D
Trouble is... buy one that's been unmolested and most things rubbery will need replacing. Buy one that's been "restored" and most things rubbery will need replacing and previous bodges will need correcting. For example, my right hand engine hanger had an Allen bolt in there that was just finger tight. (you can spot it on the pic). Torque on the cylinder bolts was way too low on some and way too tight on others. It's just getting the right extension heights for each bolt but the previous previous owner clearly didn't.
So far I've had one bad nut (my mistake), a seized woodruff/keyway (previous bodge), two things were a lack of my knowledge (aint that the case), finger tight engine mount with the wrong bolt (previous bodge) and an unresolved clutch end-float, which I'm hoping is again a lack of my knowledge.
It's going ok actually. Looking at a big stack of (NLA) parts on the floor is unnerving but I reckon I could provide colour pics for the entire TZR manual engine section before long.
I tend to agree with you Rich. Examples can vary from unrestored (and often in need of varying degrees of TLC) to the totally restored (and even then, sometimes not having been done that well).
If you are fortunate enough to buy one from someone you know then in theory it should be significantly better. I wasn't confident enough to rebuild my engine last time but hopefully will be next time having read many of the experienced comments and threads on this forum including yours (-P)
Quote from: thump566 on September 25, 2021, 09:33:14 AM
the experienced comments and threads on this forum including yours (-P)
I would count the answers on my posts rather than knowledge from myself - the forum's a bikesaver for sure ;D
Today was all about cleaning and getting everything bagged up for Martin. I also took the opportunity to try to learn some more about my bike, so I created port maps, measured ring end gaps and checked the heads for warping and squish band height.
Rings came out at between 0.35 and 0.38mm and everything got a good clean, and safely packaged up for SP tuning with matched PVs and head skim (-P) (-P) (-P)
If you are planning on re-using the old pistons and rings ensure that you keep each piston and rings together as a set, and mark the pistons according to the cyls they came out of (and will go back in to) of course. Also inspect the ring pegs very closely for signs of wear/erosion - the upper ring half-pegs especially.
Better to use new pistons and rings if you have any doubt at all about them, or don't know that they are very low mileage and the pegs look all good etc. of course. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on September 25, 2021, 06:12:34 PM
If you are planning on re-using the old pistons and rings ensure that you keep each piston and rings together as a set, and mark the pistons according to the cyls they came out of (and will go back in to) of course. Also inspect the ring pegs very closely for signs of wear/erosion - the upper ring half-pegs especially.
Better to use new pistons and rings if you have any doubt at all about them, or don't know that they are very low mileage and the pegs look all good etc. of course. (-P)
I'm reusing - depending on those ring gaps... 0.35-0.38 mm. I'll check the resources section, but these are Wossner pistons so unsure if that would make a difference?
Anyway, yes being very very careful. Rings went back on the same piston in the same position and the same way up as they came off. I do have new small end bearings, which I'll use. And they'll go back into the same barrels. The pistons are about 600 kms old.
Edit: Standard ring gaps from the manual says between 0.3mm and 0.45mm with a service limit of 0.8mm - so I'm good to go on those rings! ;D
Oh, just to keep things the same side, I'm using red and green zip ties on everything that comes off, corresponding to red and green zip ties on the brake/clutch levers.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 23, 2021, 09:04:18 PM
Success. (-P)
Nut extractor worked and the cylinder is free! Thanks Andy & Steve for that tip and a huge thanks to Steve for offering to help replace the mangled nut. O:-)
PV wiggled out just like you said Warwick, and the head came away from the barrel with the butt end of a wooden hammer. Really helpful to know these things I don't know.
I got the second head off too, bit nervous on the upper coolant flange, but the impact driver did it's job well.
First head cleaned up well, the upper cylinder head had loads of smooth carbon buildup, just goes to show how out of sync the jetting was. Marks on the lower cylinder wall, but nothing that can be felt.
The list of parts on the floor is growing..... I had thought about carrying on and getting the next cylinder off and maybe I could clean these up and maybe I could get them in the post to Martin - but stopped. Don't rush. Leave it, take your time & quit while you're ahead!
As Warwick says - put the kettle on (-P)
WooHoo! bet that was a good feeling when you felt that start turning. Wish you could bottle that haha
Quote from: SeaR1ck on September 23, 2021, 10:40:08 PM
Yes a rubber mallet/hammer is good to have. And I use my plastic hammer a lot.
Other useful tools bearing / race installer kit.
Blind bearing puller kit
+1 for the blind bearing puller. Used mine today to get wheel bearings out. If you think you might need I can drop by on a Friday / Sunday evening. I drive by your way every week Rich.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 25, 2021, 06:41:03 PM
Oh, just to keep things the same side, I'm using red and green zip ties on everything that comes off, corresponding to red and green zip ties on the brake/clutch levers.
I love this. So organised and your future self will be very happy!
Quote from: AndyYam on September 25, 2021, 07:49:40 PM
Quote from: SeaR1ck on September 23, 2021, 10:40:08 PM
Yes a rubber mallet/hammer is good to have. And I use my plastic hammer a lot.
Other useful tools bearing / race installer kit.
Blind bearing puller kit
+1 for the blind bearing puller. Used mine today to get wheel bearings out. If you think you might need I can drop by on a Friday / Sunday evening. I drive by your way every week Rich.
Thanks ;D
I'll give you a shout when I get into the rolling parts!
Here's the broken socket I was using to try to get the barrels off, and the right tool I got to take the other one off. Right tool for the job? Absolutely!
Quote from: AndyYam on September 25, 2021, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 25, 2021, 06:41:03 PM
Oh, just to keep things the same side, I'm using red and green zip ties on everything that comes off, corresponding to red and green zip ties on the brake/clutch levers.
I love this. So organised and your future self will be very happy!
Makes a difference when there's days between disassembly and assembly! I couldn't remember the most obvious so similar parts for different sides was a concern without a system.
Shout out to Dan McB (maccas here on the forum) for a complete set of TZR 3XV gaskets.
Eagle eyes will spot 2 sets of base gaskets. Different thicknesses.
I'm rounding up the parts I didn't know I needed to order, a few bodge holes to fill, but a couple of Q's...
- Should the copper washers under the domed head nuts be replaced with new?
- Is it prudent to get a new #13 (whatever that is) when fitting the new crank?
The copper crush washers on the head should be replaced. If you want you can heat them up but must be red hot they will aneal themselves and can be reused.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on September 27, 2021, 04:15:00 PM
The copper crush washers on the head should be replaced. If you want you can heat them up but must be red hot they will aneal themselves and can be reused.
Thanks (-P)
AHH no13, chicken satay....
A locating shim????
There's no need to replace the bearing locating half ring unless it's damaged in some way. Highly unlikely as it just spends its life sitting there (barring some kind of catastrophic failure of course). (-P)
Quote from: jamietzr250r on September 27, 2021, 05:12:03 PM
AHH no13, chicken satay....
A locating shim????
;D
Quote from: Warwick on September 27, 2021, 06:36:30 PM
There's no need to replace the bearing locating half ring unless it's damaged in some way. Highly unlikely as it just spends its life sitting there (barring some kind of catastrophic failure of course). (-P)
Thanks Warwick - any money saved now is too little, too late but always welcome (-P)
Here are a few pics of the inside of the SP Tado Jackal end cans. Looks like there's quite a bit going on in there. Theory I've seen says the big 2T tuning considerations are insignificant beyond the end of the stinger, but I'm musing that this arrangement would "increase" static pressure.
Heads, barrels & PVs are on their way to Martin, coming in the other direction from the USA, with massive help from Steveog, are replacement cylinder head nuts and a new NLA woodruff key.
The next step for me - split the cases & place a final parts order for small stuff (-P)
Yes, wadding does increase back pressure. With my similar end cans I drilled the big head rivets, repacked with motocross wadding and then used some new big head rivets to get them back together.
If "post stinger" isn't important I'd expect two similar dyno runs, one with end-cans and one without to be the same. Myself I think there probably would be but I guess it's down to the port timing/expansion chamber profile and stinger being in synch with the end-cam (and vice-versa).
The body of the pipe up to the stinger defines the resonant frequency of the exhaust gas. As I understand it the stinger length has little bearing on this, as you can inverted stingers that stick back into the expansion chamber, and the end can is merely for silencing. However I run JL TZ style 2 bolt long big bore end cans on my 3XV/TZ hybrid. Not only do they give good power, let the motor rev and it still remains pretty quiet as well. IMO they are the best end cans you can buy
https://www.jl-exhausts.com/yamaha-tz250-v2-modern-426-c.asp
The stinger diameter and length are important but only to the back pressure, just as the silencer is.
Honda use the stinger Back into the baffle cone for back pressure.
Think you are right that the stinger has no effect on the tuned lengths. This is just A measurement from port to baffle cone centre.
NLA Woodruff key from RSC & great condition cylinder head nuts all the way from the USA (-P)
Massive thanks to Steveog for getting this all put together and sending it over to me :) You're a star - thanks again!
(Oddly enough it twas almost quicker to arrive all the way from Indiana across the pond as it was to send my barrels 120 miles down the road to Devon :o)
Good news, Rich. Thanks for your kind words.
Shipping from UK to Indiana is unpredictable. Mostly, excellent, but it took two months for two liters of A747 to get to me. Not sure why that stuff is not available in the US.
Good luck on your build.
Steve
Thanks Steve. :)
So back from some distracting family stuff and.... Pickups came off tonight. This needed the impact driver and the perfect fit head, but all drama free (-P)
These screw heads could so easily be torn up so I'll count that a success. Just some mild torque with a manual screwdriver said "that's not the way"!!!
Planning on the last 15 bolts to separate the cases now, and they seem very stuck. So sprayed with WD40 and will leave 24hrs before I try again. A couple of the bolts are hampered by the rear studs for the barrels. It may be best to try to remove those studs to assure a 100% square contact?
The case bolts will be stubborn may feel like they want to snap before breaking loose.
If they don't want to budge by hand. Use the impact driver. Just make sure you have a good fit on the bolt. And a tight grip on the impact. May take a few hits to break it loose.
Thanks Rick (-P)
I've ordered some long impact hex bits so I can get 100% square on, they'll be here by the weekend.
Will be ready for some nervous times, but good to know to expect it
The hex long bits are a good idea. The torque settings of those bolts isn't great though, and I've never had to resort to the impact gun for those myself, so do go easy if getting the big guns out...
I always replace the pick up screws with allen bolts to make future removals easier, personally. And copper greasing all threads when rebuilding is also useful future-proofing of course. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on October 05, 2021, 08:47:23 PM
The hex long bits are a good idea. The torque settings of those bolts isn't great though, and I've never had to resort to the impact gun for those myself, so do go easy if getting the big guns out...
I always replace the pick up screws with allen bolts to make future removals easier, personally. And copper greasing all threads when rebuilding is also useful future-proofing of course. (-P)
Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense. I'll get Allen replacements and some copper grease. Nice one!
Hex bits won't arrive to the weekend, so I can oil/wd40 each day up til then to hopefully get into the threads a bit (-P)
WD-40 can be a good penetrating oil, Rich. But, if it fails, you might consider Kroil. Heat and Kroil have never failed to release the most stubborn nuts/bolts.
Even the counter shaft and swing arm pivots gave up...eventually...with no damage.
Good luck.
Steve
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 05, 2021, 07:42:34 PM
Thanks Steve. :)
So back from some distracting family stuff and.... Pickups came off tonight. This needed the impact driver and the perfect fit head, but all drama free (-P)
These screw heads could so easily be torn up so I'll count that a success. Just some mild torque with a manual screwdriver said "that's not the way"!!!
Planning on the last 15 bolts to separate the cases now, and they seem very stuck. So sprayed with WD40 and will leave 24hrs before I try again. A couple of the bolts are hampered by the rear studs for the barrels. It may be best to try to remove those studs to assure a 100% square contact?
Impact guns are the best. You wonder how you lived without one.
Regarding smaller screw heads I was at a friends working on his DRz400 and we had to undo the master cylinder caps countersunk screws. They had not moved for a long time and a manual screwdriver was chewing them. He had one of those "impact drill drivers" that builders use. We tapped the best fitting "bit" we had in with a hammer and put the drill on. It worked a treat. I'm now going to order some JIS bits to use on mine. A full impact gun would have been too much but that was perfect.
Quote from: Steveog on October 06, 2021, 04:17:02 AM
WD-40 can be a good penetrating oil, Rich. But, if it fails, you might consider Kroil. Heat and Kroil have never failed to release the most stubborn nuts/bolts.
Even the counter shaft and swing arm pivots gave up...eventually...with no damage.
Good luck.
Steve
Rich, +1 for the Kroil. really good releasing agent (-P)
Quote from: Steveog on October 06, 2021, 04:17:02 AM
WD-40 can be a good penetrating oil, Rich. But, if it fails, you might consider Kroil. Heat and Kroil have never failed to release the most stubborn nuts/bolts.
Even the counter shaft and swing arm pivots gave up...eventually...with no damage.
Good luck.
Steve
Thanks Steve - I have 2 days on WD-40 so I'll see how quick I can get some (-P)
Quote from: AndyYam on October 06, 2021, 10:03:58 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 05, 2021, 07:42:34 PM
Thanks Steve. :)
So back from some distracting family stuff and.... Pickups came off tonight. This needed the impact driver and the perfect fit head, but all drama free (-P)
These screw heads could so easily be torn up so I'll count that a success. Just some mild torque with a manual screwdriver said "that's not the way"!!!
Planning on the last 15 bolts to separate the cases now, and they seem very stuck. So sprayed with WD40 and will leave 24hrs before I try again. A couple of the bolts are hampered by the rear studs for the barrels. It may be best to try to remove those studs to assure a 100% square contact?
Impact guns are the best. You wonder how you lived without one.
Regarding smaller screw heads I was at a friends working on his DRz400 and we had to undo the master cylinder caps countersunk screws. They had not moved for a long time and a manual screwdriver was chewing them. He had one of those "impact drill drivers" that builders use. We tapped the best fitting "bit" we had in with a hammer and put the drill on. It worked a treat. I'm now going to order some JIS bits to use on mine. A full impact gun would have been too much but that was perfect.
Agree - best bit of kit I've got bar none! Mind you, as Warwick indicated, sometimes the "feel" from a long lever is a better warn of something that's too seized to move - taking it one bolt at a time!
Quote from: thump566 on October 06, 2021, 10:34:00 PM
Quote from: Steveog on October 06, 2021, 04:17:02 AM
WD-40 can be a good penetrating oil, Rich. But, if it fails, you might consider Kroil. Heat and Kroil have never failed to release the most stubborn nuts/bolts.
Even the counter shaft and swing arm pivots gave up...eventually...with no damage.
Good luck.
Steve
Rich, +1 for the Kroil. really good releasing agent (-P)
Thanks Ron - on the list, and I'm trying to recategorise these tools on the spreadsheet of doom to "reduce" the cost with #1 ;)
This is your chart you need to follow >:D
Quote
Agree - best bit of kit I've got bar none! Mind you, as Warwick indicated, sometimes the "feel" from a long lever is a better warn of something that's too seized to move - taking it one bolt at a time!
Yeah that's true. Although I've not had any snap using impact. I have with breaker bars as the pressure builds and twists the head off.
Quote from: AndyYam on October 07, 2021, 07:59:17 PM
Quote
Agree - best bit of kit I've got bar none! Mind you, as Warwick indicated, sometimes the "feel" from a long lever is a better warn of something that's too seized to move - taking it one bolt at a time!
Yeah that's true. Although I've not had any snap using impact. I have with breaker bars as the pressure builds and twists the head off.
Yep, you get a feel from the bar but I'd always try the impact driver first and then go to heat. I'm 3 days in a row with WD40 (Kroil doesn't seem to be a UK thing ?:-|) So when I get the long hex bits and 100% square on I'm sure these last 15 bolts will be no problem. (-P)
Plus Gas is the English equivalent, it's very good.
50/50 acetone and ATF is the ghetto equivalent, it's very dangerous.
Quote from: yanw on October 07, 2021, 11:27:55 PM
Plus Gas is the English equivalent, it's very good.
50/50 acetone and ATF is the ghetto equivalent, it's very dangerous.
It just so happens I have both ATF & acetone (-P)
Quote from: yanw on October 07, 2021, 11:27:55 PM
Plus Gas is the English equivalent, it's very good.
50/50 acetone and ATF is the ghetto equivalent, it's very dangerous.
+1 for plusgas, thats what I've always used. I just bought some little needle tip applicator bottles to use mine with as the plastic screw top bit has torn and I've been wasting loads pouring it everywhere whilst trying to pin point a bolt/thread.
Freeze and release sprays can also help in conjuction with heat if used carefully. It can just get it to exapnd and contract enough to break that corrosion seal.
https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/normfest-super-crack-ultra-ice-rust-remover-400ml-NOR28944421?type=shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjwwY-LBhD6ARIsACvT72PmeQ0Hvj8PGOh3Z5ZIHtcOTArZTXUQiYFOXtJ_EIN4lr6xgOR5F-MaAsmREALw_wcB
Thanks Andy. That freeze spray looks really interesting too! I now have the right tool for the job that came in the post today via Royal Snail (see pics) and will give this a go tomorrow... with care and a lot more knowledge from the advice of all here!
Oh your trying to split the case. I would have dropped the engine from the frame. It's a whole lot easier that way. The engine isn't that heavy like 75 pounds.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on October 11, 2021, 07:47:18 PM
Oh your trying to split the case. I would have dropped the engine from the frame. It's a whole lot easier that way. The engine isn't that heavy like 75 pounds.
Yes, I'm being guilty of not following the advice of the more experienced ??? I thought I'd drop it if I got stuck, but so far (15 bolts to go) I haven't. I suspect I still have a chance to regret that decision and had the rear cylinder head not come off the barrel that would have been one point I'd have bit the bullet.
You can replace the crank/rebuild top ends easily enough with the motor in situ, but removing the motor first means it's easier to clean things up properly before starting. And when rebuilding you can get at everything more easily and you can ensure no debris drops into the motor while working more easily etc. If there's the time available, I would always drop it out myself.
Given that you've split it uncleaned and in situ though, you'll just need to take a little extra care to avoid dirt and debris ingress when rebuilding it.
Quote from: Warwick on October 12, 2021, 11:00:27 AM
Given that you've split it uncleaned and in situ though, you'll just need to take a little extra care to avoid dirt and debris ingress when rebuilding it.
Yes, that's a critical thought ???
The correct length and selection of 5 & 6mm hex bits, a selection of extension bars and all is good. The last 15 of these crusty critters are out. In fact only a few on the left hand side (upper) were this bad. Now I have a split crankcase with a crank in it.
The 6mm hex bolts either side of the conrods were nice and easy to get out thanks to a helpful engineer 30 years ago making cut out for a snug socket ;D
So (apart from trying to get the crank out of the case) that's all the disassembly done.
Onto cleaning and inspection.
Looking at the right side (lower) it's possible it wasn't the gearbox side oil seal as much as it was the bearing... looks a little odd in there and the other side is spotless.
(full pic for context)
The gearbox side crank seal that came out looks good but I guess there's no way to really tell. The crank bearings run ok, but I'm no engineer. Centre one seems a little rough though, but hard to say with the centre seal. Big ends don't appear to have any longitudinal movement, just a little side to side, and the bearings there look good too.
So no obvious signs how gearbox oil was getting into the right pot. Judging by the black sealant around the crankcase faces at weak points only (like the bolt holes) and not all over the faces, I'd say this hasn't been apart.
However - The right side crankcase has definitely had a gut punch. No materials in there so it may be an old ring nibble from long long ago, but there's definite scuffing on the conrod and what looks like torn material on the crankcase where it runs.
What's the recommended way to fix this? Or should I just leave it?
Hi Rich.
As you may know, I've had three major nip-ups that gouged out both sides of my 3xv crankcase. I was advised by the gurus here in 2018 to sand/down the high spots (top of photo), but, later a wrist pin did far more damage and caused the lower crater (highlighted by arrow).
I decided to "FILL" all the gouges as best as I could. The lower one took using a Dremel with a 45 degree attachment to even out the raised areas of aluminum. After that, sandpaper and Heavy ScotchBrite cleaned it all up. Then all thoroughly cleaned with Acetone and stiff brushes. Dried with compressed air then applied JB Epoxy before any dust had a chance to collect. It takes a full 24 hours to cure. It was then sanded and contoured back to its original shape and sealing properties. This case has since been opened and checked with no sign of the filler breaking loose.
Hope this helps if you decide to work on the divot.
Good Luck.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 13, 2021, 08:33:31 PM
As you may know, I've had three major nip-ups that gouged out both sides of my 3xv crankcase.
Yes, I know! I've been looking through the wrist pin and project pheonix threads saying to myself - well it looks better than that so I should be ok!
Credits to AndyYam who suggested putting some oil in and see if it went away - so a bit of blu tac engineering and tested that. The oil did disappear :(
So I whipped out the gear box and bad news - it's been punched through.
Oh that sucks some engine cases on yahoo right now. I know it could be repaired but it won't be cheap. I would rather get a set of cases myself.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on October 13, 2021, 09:52:44 PM
Oh that sucks some engine cases on yahoo right now. I know it could be repaired but it won't be cheap. I would rather get a set of cases myself.
There's one on eBay, I've emailed the seller to get more info. (-P)
I guess (trying to look on the positive) I have the option of sealing the leak on the gearbox or crank side... ::)
I think maybe take it to an engineering shop and get them to drill it to get some nice oil free metal, then TIG the hole up. I suspect it would be cheaper than new cases and IIRC you should get matched pairs.
If it were mine I'd probably use JB weld with a bit of care (I like to seal if once shaped with a layer of superglue). Tig welding would be more permanent, and it's only a small patch so not a huge job (ie expensive). Hand grinders would clean it back up in no time.
Seems a shame to throw the case away for a small bit of damage.
At least it explains why it ran a bit weirdly though!
Ouch, that's rough. Must have been a pretty big old chunk of something that did a couple of laps in there? Was the head marked on that side too?
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 09:32:20 PM
Quote from: Steveog on October 13, 2021, 08:33:31 PM
As you may know, I've had three major nip-ups that gouged out both sides of my 3xv crankcase.
Yes, I know! I've been looking through the wrist pin and project pheonix threads saying to myself - well it looks better than that so I should be ok!
Credits to AndyYam who suggested putting some oil in and see if it went away - so a bit of blu tac engineering and tested that. The oil did disappear :(
So I whipped out the gear box and bad news - it's been punched through.
Oh wow. Well I guess you've found the answer to the smokey issue which is the good news atleast!
Steve's advice sounds very promising. If you managed to push some of the epoxy all the way through and then kind of fold over the other side and push down you'd have a pretty good basis for a seal that you could then sand back. Personally I'd always be thinking of the possibility that it comes away but from Steve experience that seems unlikely. I'm super impressed with that so if you do I'd say buy the exact same stuff!
If funds allow though new cases have to be the way forward.
Looks like Gecko motorcycles have a couple of sets in stock too.
http://www.geckomotorcycles.co.uk/magento/3xv-yamaha-tzr250-crankcases-4dp-4tw-2.html
Massive thanks to all for the advice - it is a massive help to me. Thanks all.
Looking at the options I think I'll go down the JB weld route and pressure test to start with (knowing there's other repair/replace options on the table as backup). All the threads I've read since yesterday have either a JB weld or, in one incidence, full on welding resolution. It helps to get opinions on my specific case.
It would be good to see if JB weld can commute to the gearbox side but given the experience here I'll not be overly concerned if it doesn't, as it'll stick and stay stuck. That is if I've done it right and chosen the right JB weld ::)
Is this the right one https://www.amazon.co.uk/JB-WELD-MAC8265-S-TEX-8265-S-Weld/dp/B0006O1ICE?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/JB-WELD-MAC8265-S-TEX-8265-S-Weld/dp/B0006O1ICE?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1)?
Quote from: Warwick on October 13, 2021, 10:26:48 PM
Ouch, that's rough. Must have been a pretty big old chunk of something that did a couple of laps in there? Was the head marked on that side too?
Head looked good on that side. Barrels had been replated and piston/rings replaced so there's no evidence as to what did this, but it was long before I got the bike and only discovered after I sorted the 5:1 oiling ratio caused by a non-standard oil pump cable ;D
I think someone must have dropped a spanner in while it was running.
PS Warwick - you know you and others said this would be easier with the engine out the frame... there's not much left attached to the bike now the gearbox is out, so I'm following the advice of the experienced, only more slowly!!! ;D
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 09:32:20 PM
Yes, I know! I've been looking through the wrist pin and project pheonix threads saying to myself - well it looks better than that so I should be ok!
I guess I should be honored to be famous for something, Rich. Glad my adventures could help you push ahead with your bike. It's really the only way they will survive.
Edit: There is a difference between JB Weld and JB Epoxy. Your call, but I prefer the epoxy, as it's proven under pressure and heat to be effective. You'll need to monitor the epoxy for the first hour or so to be sure it doesn't "crawl" or "ooze" away from where you want it.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 13, 2021, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 09:32:20 PM
Yes, I know! I've been looking through the wrist pin and project pheonix threads saying to myself - well it looks better than that so I should be ok!
I guess I should be honored to be famous for something, Rich. Glad my adventures could help you push ahead with your bike. It's really the only way they will survive.
Steve
Famous for determination in the face of adversity, and winning through in the end - certainly an inspiration for my bike :)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 11:05:04 PM
Head looked good on that side. Barrels had been replated and piston/rings replaced so there's no evidence as to what did this, but it was long before I got the bike and only discovered after I sorted the 5:1 oiling ratio caused by a non-standard oil pump cable ;D
Right, sounds like a bit of an unlucky buy really. I hope you picked it up cheap?
Quote from: Steveog on October 13, 2021, 11:07:49 PM
Edit: There is a difference between JB Weld and JB Epoxy. Your call, but I prefer the epoxy, as it's proven under pressure and heat to be effective. You'll need to monitor the epoxy for the first hour or so to be sure it doesn't "crawl" or "ooze" away from where you want it.
So this one Steve? https://www.amazon.co.uk/JB-50176-JB50176-Minute-Steel/dp/B009EU5ZMA?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/JB-50176-JB50176-Minute-Steel/dp/B009EU5ZMA?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1)
Quote from: Warwick on October 13, 2021, 11:30:35 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 11:05:04 PM
Head looked good on that side. Barrels had been replated and piston/rings replaced so there's no evidence as to what did this, but it was long before I got the bike and only discovered after I sorted the 5:1 oiling ratio caused by a non-standard oil pump cable ;D
Right, sounds like a bit of an unlucky buy really. I hope you picked it up cheap?
£5k back last year... but my luck has to turn soon with this one ?:-|
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 11:38:47 PM
£5k back last year... but my luck has to turn soon with this one ?:-|
Yes, very unlucky with the pierced case I'd say. I've never seen one of those before. I guess at least you can now repair it and build it all up properly and have the bike exactly as you want it. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on October 13, 2021, 11:57:04 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 11:38:47 PM
£5k back last year... but my luck has to turn soon with this one ?:-|
Yes, very unlucky with the pierced case I'd say. I've never seen one of those before. I guess at least you can now repair it and build it all up properly and have the bike exactly as you want it. (-P)
Serious mystery. Looks like the cases have never been apart so what went in must have come out without breaking up and wrecking the crank bearings or seals. It all looks perfect (apart from the hole and witness marks of the big end). Maybe it was dropped circlip that got fished out? I bet it made one hell of a bang when it did that hole.
Edit: Maybe a piece of broken reed stop via the C port when some 17 year old tried to break the 45hp limit by bending the stops out?
Yes, ring or circlip I expect. Maybe even a bit of broken piston skirt? Whatever it was, It'd have gone out of the exhaust after damaging the cylinder etc. I expect. Unless the crank itself locks up, such failures rarely feel at all dramatic when riding though; the power just drops off a bit generally.
The biggest noise usually comes later from the screaming wallet.... ;D
Quote from: Warwick on October 14, 2021, 12:15:17 AM
The biggest noise usually comes later from the screaming wallet.... ;D
Many years later ;D ;D ;D
I'm going to look in the end can ;D
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 13, 2021, 11:36:47 PM
So this one Steve? https://www.amazon.co.uk/JB-50176-JB50176-Minute-Steel/dp/B009EU5ZMA?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/JB-50176-JB50176-Minute-Steel/dp/B009EU5ZMA?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1)
Yes, that's the stuff...almost, Rich. Just be sure to get "The Original" formula. The JB Epoxy you showed was "Quick Set".
The JB Epoxy I used took overnight to fully cure.
Also, Deeply appreciate your kind words concerning my exploits with the 3xv, but without the experts here I would have been blind in a dark room.
Good Luck
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 13, 2021, 11:07:49 PM
You'll need to monitor the epoxy for the first hour or so to be sure it doesn't "crawl" or "ooze" away from where you want it.
Blue-tac is your friend here ;)
Clean up the area with a sharp point/scribe, excavate out the crack a bit and give is a very good clean with thinners or similar. I use a bit of masking tape over the top of the jb weld to hold it in position while it cures. I'd do the same on both sides (I'm guessing there's plenty of clearance on the gearbox side?). When set you can peel the tape off, and smooth any high spots, then I brush on a layer of superglue to seal the JB weld (you'll see what I mean if you do this, especially if it's been cut back a bit).
Should be fine... I've used this method to fix large 10mm holes when carving cases to suit different cylinders, so it'll hold up with a small crack no problem.
Thanks all (-P)
I'm fairly confident from the advice here I can get this done right & get this thread progressing forwards! Like Steve says, I would have been blind in a dark room without it! Out of interest, when I was looking at this a couple of days ago I did look into aluminium brazing rods, but discounted that fairly quickly as it would be highly likely that the repair could come unstuck though vibration and go on a demolition rampage in the crank.
It's also a chance to think about my bike and try to learn, put my amateur engineering to work. This part of the case has no purpose structurally for the crank, apart from creating the sealed crankcase void for the 2 stroke cycles, with far less pressure changes and temperatures that the other side of the piston. Any pressure is good (as in pressing the weld into the hole), but am I right in assuming there's never a negative pressure? Just curious.
My experience of aluminium brazing rods has resulted in a still intact brazing rod and a lump of melted aluminium that once wasn't. YMMV.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 14, 2021, 12:19:07 PM
Thanks all (-P)
It's also a chance to think about my bike and try to learn, put my amateur engineering to work. This part of the case has no purpose structurally for the crank, apart from creating the sealed crankcase void for the 2 stroke cycles, with far less pressure changes and temperatures that the other side of the piston. Any pressure is good (as in pressing the weld into the hole), but am I right in assuming there's never a negative pressure? Just curious.
There's negative pressure on the intake stroke of course, but the reeds should yield to that vacuum long before the repair would. As Martin says, the key is to properly degrease the local area first and scrape/ream it a bit make a fresh clean ali surface for the epoxy to adhere to. Should be no problem if you take the time and care to do the job right. (-P)
Quote from: yanw on October 14, 2021, 12:38:14 PM
My experience of aluminium brazing rods has resulted in a still intact brazing rod and a lump of melted aluminium that once wasn't. YMMV.
;D ;D ;D
Yes, I could imagine me looking down on a pile of melted case one side and a pile of melted rod the other ;D
Another reason for discounting it was to bring the area being worked on up to several hundred degrees may well patch that spot, but a 30 year old casting would surely develop many fissures if not entirely warp it. Solving one leak and creating many more!
Quote from: Warwick on October 14, 2021, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 14, 2021, 12:19:07 PM
Thanks all (-P)
It's also a chance to think about my bike and try to learn, put my amateur engineering to work. This part of the case has no purpose structurally for the crank, apart from creating the sealed crankcase void for the 2 stroke cycles, with far less pressure changes and temperatures that the other side of the piston. Any pressure is good (as in pressing the weld into the hole), but am I right in assuming there's never a negative pressure? Just curious.
There's negative pressure on the intake stroke of course, but the reeds should yield to that vacuum long before the repair would. As Martin says, the key is to properly degrease the local area first and scrape/ream it a bit make a fresh clean ali surface for the epoxy to adhere to. Should be no problem if you take the time and care to do the job right. (-P)
As I don't need to use this to get to work on Monday morning (remember those days!) then time is something I can lavish on this. Lots of thinking and prep time. (-P)
JB Weld epoxy has arrived and I've practiced with this fixing a pan lid. Done some thinking and planning.
As I have got this far there's no point trying to stick this at 90 degrees, the engine has to come out so I can apply the weld flat. You all knew the motor needed to come out ::)
Clutch cable will need to come off at the lever but apart from that are there any other cables/pipes/wires?
Ha. You got there in the end... ;D.
Assuming you've disconnected the stator wiring, then yes, it should be just the clutch cable off the top of my head. Do a quick visual check before removing the engine bolts of course.
Top tip: If you remove the clutch cable and bracket at the motor end and when working on the engine (you'll find the cable flaps around and gets in the way a bit if you don't), make sure that you remember to refit it before putting the motor back in the frame because it's a royal pain to refit and re-attach it once the motor's back in situ, ahem... :-[
Quote from: Warwick on October 16, 2021, 11:21:03 AM
Ha. You got there in the end... ;D.
Yes, you all knew it. ;) At least now putting the halves together will use gravity in my favour.
Bonus points now I can do all this on the kitchen table (-P)
Hmmm, should the balance shaft spin a little more freely than this? (See attached vid)
There are two bearings, an oil seal and a circlip on that shaft, Rich. I really don't remember, but I can't imagine that it would spin freely. Friction from the seal being the limiting factor if the bearings are good.
Assuming the bearings are solid (no lateral movement or catches when rotating), then that shaft rotation would seem normal. Be sure to check both sides of the shaft for bearing play. If however, you're concerned this is a good time to pull the shaft and check the contingent parts. Replacing the seal, circlip and lock washer will be your only expense to take a look. Peace of mind the reward.
Good Luck
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 16, 2021, 05:57:54 PM
Friction from the seal being the limiting factor if the bearings are good.
Good point Steve. Everything's a little dry now as the bike's been in bits for over a month, so I guess this should be fine. I'll check if there's anything catching or any lateral movement (-P)
For the JB fix, I found the perfect angle, that's acetone in the pic, and sanded and scored the area of the repair. The acetone dripped through the hole too, so I cleaned up both sides. After doing the top repair some JB had gone through the hole so it was the perfect chance to follow up on the other side. Using a mirror helped here to inspect! 24 Hrs and I'll sand & superglue seal.
Good Progress, Rich. Martin77 made a good point about sealing the end result of JB Epoxy with super-glue. I would assume that once you're done smoothing the Epoxy, cleaning it with Acetone would be the way to go before "brushing" on the super glue.
Steve
I just brush it on assuming there's no oil on there.. I'm not sure how the JB would react (if at all) with acetone. When I've done large areas in cases for stuffing/flowing work then I use an old brush to paint it on the surface fairly liberally, but eitherway, so long as it coats it, you'll be fine Rich..
Found a narrow piece of wood with the right radius & it sands down real easy - definitely looks porous as a result. Superglue has done the trick, nice suggestion, thanks! (-P)
I've got to do the gearbox side next week so that'll be the braces to this belt.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 16, 2021, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Warwick on October 16, 2021, 11:21:03 AM
Ha. You got there in the end... ;D.
Yes, you all knew it. ;) At least now putting the halves together will use gravity in my favour.
Bonus points now I can do all this on the kitchen table (-P)
As if you're allowed to use the kitchen table for bike parts! no fair!
Does this also mean you're allowed to put cases in the oven? If you do that and put the bearings in the freezer overnight it makes it so much easier to put them in. That is if you're replacing bearings whilst its out?
Quote from: AndyYam on October 18, 2021, 02:34:53 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 16, 2021, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Warwick on October 16, 2021, 11:21:03 AM
Ha. You got there in the end... ;D.
Yes, you all knew it. ;) At least now putting the halves together will use gravity in my favour.
Bonus points now I can do all this on the kitchen table (-P)
As if you're allowed to use the kitchen table for bike parts! no fair!
Does this also mean you're allowed to put cases in the oven? If you do that and put the bearings in the freezer overnight it makes it so much easier to put them in. That is if you're replacing bearings whilst its out?
Well, that's what I thought, but apparently all of my assumptions along those lines proved incorrect :o
However, I tested the JB / superglue fix and I can't feel where the fix is at all with eyes closed. Great advice (-P) (-P) (-P)
Glad to hear your fix came out so well, Rich.
Congrats.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 18, 2021, 08:07:37 PM
Glad to hear your fix came out so well, Rich.
Congrats.
Steve
I'm really pleased with it. On real close inspection I can see the edges of the repair are bonded into the light wire brushing marks, so it's not going anywhere plus it's through to the gearbox side so a further chance for security and seal (-P). Thanks for your advice among others!
Gearbox side sanded & sealed.
Now, an hour with ATF & wire wool ... better tools/cleaners for manually cleaning the cases anyone?
Have used alloy polishing blocks previously although not tried on the cases yet. They used to be marketed as Loyblox but believe they are now...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Garryson-Garryflex-Abrasive-Block-240grit/dp/B0001P08UG/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8
Nice one! That wire wool turns into a ball quite quickly. (-P)
Good shout Ron. (-P) That's working out perfect for cleaning the mating surfaces. Probably need to jump up a grit size or two for the outside of the cases.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 20, 2021, 09:22:46 PM
Good shout Ron. (-P) That's working out perfect for cleaning the mating surfaces. Probably need to jump up a grit size or two for the outside of the cases.
STOP! Don't go at the crankcase mating surfaces with anything remotely abrasive! Scrape any goo off carefully with gasket remover and a (cerfully) dragged razor blade or just a cloth if possible. The last thing you want to do is damage the mating faces in any way at all. C:-)
Wire wheels and brushes for your powerdrill are pretty good for the
outsides of cases though. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on October 20, 2021, 09:47:54 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 20, 2021, 09:22:46 PM
Good shout Ron. (-P) That's working out perfect for cleaning the mating surfaces. Probably need to jump up a grit size or two for the outside of the cases.
STOP! Don't go at the crankcase mating surfaces with anything remotely abrasive! Scrape any goo off carefully with gasket remover and a (cerfully) dragged razor blade or just a cloth if possible. The last thing you want to do is damage the mating faces in any way at all. C:-)
Wire wheels and brushes for your powerdrill are pretty good for the outsides of cases though. (-P)
Thanks for clarifying that Warwick. (-P)
These blocks I have only previously used for external alloy parts carefully.
Ooops! Thanks for the emergency stop gents :o
Just used it on the oil pump face on the outer gearbox side so no harm done. Thanks fellas (-P)
6 PSI and holding.... See if it retains that pressure overnight.
I'm sure the same won't be for the cases but best not have a leak in your leak down test kit ;D
Good result - lost 0.5 psi in 8 hours. That's more than good enough.
And...... barrels/heads/PVs are all back from Martin77 in SP spec. I'll post more on this when I get closer to install, but everything looks factory, even the PVs 8)
The three main crankcase parts are all cleaned now. Not showroom standard, but no dirt/corrosion. Good enough to see the marks on the case and water pump housing where the chain came off at speed at some point in this bike's history!
Next steps
- Clean up the front sprocket bearing (I believe a rubber seal is missing and that's why it's a bit crunchy)
- Carefully clean the gasket surfaces as described
- Test fit the crank and the cases
- Yamabond and join the cases
- Follow the torque plan & tighten the cases
- Pistons back on with the new rings I found
- Barrels back on and torqued down
- Using the old head gaskets, measure squish both sides
- Swap base gaskets as required for 0.8mm
- Heads back on with new gaskets
- Inlets back on & leak down test
That'll be the goal for the weekend. Get it all sealed up.
You mentioned put pistons back on with new rings. I hope that includes new wrist pin circlips and your not reusing the old ones.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on October 22, 2021, 10:27:29 PM
You mentioned put pistons back on with new rings. I hope that includes new wrist pin circlips and your not reusing the old ones.
Ooh... right up until 10 seconds ago I would have said reusing..... The clips are the wire ones that Woosner uses, rather than the circlip style, should these be new?
Just found this quote...
"Long ago, an old mechanic told me there are three things you never re-use: piston clips, gaskets, and toilet paper."
Thanks Rick (-P)
I also have new small end bearings so all good
If you need new ones at any point, Rich. Wossner USA can get you the wrist pin clips. They are not unique to the custom 3xv pistons. I ordered from the Ohio office. Obviously, finding a UK office would save shipping costs and speed up delivery.
Once installed, be sure to set the open ends in the direction of piston travel. I prefer to have the open ends of the clips pointing toward the piston crown. Far away from the pin's mounting/extraction groove.
Good luck.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 22, 2021, 11:39:46 PM
If you need new ones at any point, Rich. Wossner USA can get you the wrist pin clips. They are not unique to the custom 3xv pistons. I ordered from the Ohio office. Obviously, finding a UK office would save shipping costs and speed up delivery.
Once installed, be sure to set the open ends in the direction of piston travel. I prefer to have the open ends of the clips pointing toward the piston crown. Far away from the pin's mounting/extraction groove.
Good luck.
Steve
Thanks Steve!
My grand plan for the weekend gets a rain check - I need to replace that sprocket bearing as it's too notchy and there's evidence it's taking a heavy hit at some point in the past. So.... not rushing and not leaving anything on the table! Gives me more time to clean the gasket surfaces anyway....
I know you'll smile at this with similar intent from the past, but my *intention* is to do this once (-P) and never again ;D
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 23, 2021, 12:14:14 AM
...my *intention* is to do this once (-P) and never again ;D
If you'd have re-used the old piston pin clips, you'd have likely been doing it all again
horribly quickly... :(
The manual clearly shows which parts should always be replaced with new ones when rebuilding (look for the little 'new' boxes in the exploded views), so keep a close eye on that, but as a rule of thumb, anything that you have to use any force to remove should always be replaced with new when rebuilding. Piston pin clips should
always be replaced with new, even if you've only fitted them for ten minutes as they are always distorted when removing and lose some of their spring. And when one fails it will make a
real mess. :-[
The manual also shows which parts should be lubricated on rebuilding (and with what kind of oil/grease), but again, a simple rule of thumb is that anything that moves against anything else or has any internal friction should always be properly lubricated when reassembling.
It's always tempting to plough on with things when you've been waiting and you finally have all the parts in hand, but the best thing really is to take your time to ensure you are doing everything as well as possible. And always ask if unsure. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on October 23, 2021, 10:27:22 AM
It's always tempting to plough on with things when you've been waiting and you finally have all the parts in hand, but the best thing really is to take your time to ensure you are doing everything as well as possible. And always ask if unsure. (-P)
Thanks Warwick. I look back at my weekend plan now and think how hopelessly ambitious that was! Having just read this (and Karel knows what he's doing, unlike me!), just goes to reinforce this!
Quote from: ybk on October 23, 2021, 03:23:22 AM
So fast forward 2 weeks of working before work in the morning and at night I managed to go from half an engine on the bench to a running bike..
So the question is.... what's the least damage/easiest way to remove and replace the sprocket bearing? I saw on here videos that someone had linked showing an engineering school heating the area around the bearing to 220 F and a bearing dropped out with a little tap. That wasn't this bearing on a 3Xv though...
Quote from: Steveog on October 22, 2021, 11:39:46 PM
They are not unique to the custom 3xv pistons. I ordered from the Ohio office. Obviously, finding a UK office would save shipping costs and speed up delivery.
Do you know the product code for these Steve? As the kits were manufactured in the USA I expect Wossner UK may need a steer!
https://www.wossnerpistons.co.uk/product-category/sundries/circlips/ (https://www.wossnerpistons.co.uk/product-category/sundries/circlips/)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 23, 2021, 11:07:45 AM
So the question is.... what's the least damage/easiest way to remove and replace the sprocket bearing? I saw on here videos that someone had linked showing an engineering school heating the area around the bearing to 220 F and a bearing dropped out with a little tap. That wasn't this bearing on a 3Xv though...
Yes, heat is your friend for the easiest removal. Run a little plusgas or similar round the edge of the bearing and leave to soak overnight if you have the time to help it on it's way if you like. A hot air gun will usually warm the case up well enough for you to be able to tap or press it out easy enough. Support the case when drifting it out and don't beat it to death. If it doesn't want to move, try more heat first.
I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's probably a generic bearing, so it can be useful to note the bearing code from the edge of the bearing before hitting it with anything, so you can order a replacement from your local bearing factor or online. (-P)
Soaking overnight (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 23, 2021, 12:50:52 PM
Quote from: Steveog on October 22, 2021, 11:39:46 PM
They are not unique to the custom 3xv pistons. I ordered from the Ohio office. Obviously, finding a UK office would save shipping costs and speed up delivery.
Do you know the product code for these Steve? As the kits were manufactured in the USA I expect Wossner UK may need a steer!
https://www.wossnerpistons.co.uk/product-category/sundries/circlips/ (https://www.wossnerpistons.co.uk/product-category/sundries/circlips/)
C-16, Rich. The circular ones. Not the ones with the crimped ears. I'm working from memory, but pretty sure. Please double check with Wossner, though. They are responsive to customer service emails.
Quote from: Steveog on October 23, 2021, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 23, 2021, 12:50:52 PM
Quote from: Steveog on October 22, 2021, 11:39:46 PM
They are not unique to the custom 3xv pistons. I ordered from the Ohio office. Obviously, finding a UK office would save shipping costs and speed up delivery.
Do you know the product code for these Steve? As the kits were manufactured in the USA I expect Wossner UK may need a steer!
https://www.wossnerpistons.co.uk/product-category/sundries/circlips/ (https://www.wossnerpistons.co.uk/product-category/sundries/circlips/)
C-16, Rich. The circular ones. Not the ones with the crimped ears. I'm working from memory, but pretty sure. Please double check with Wossner, though. They are responsive to customer service emails.
Thanks Steve. I've emailed Wossner here and will give them a call next week. Odd catalogue pics, showing 2 types!
And here's those videos, looks so easy ::)
Quote from: Steveog on July 14, 2020, 08:00:28 PM
This is from a USA college level power-sports program. Good, complete information. Its important to watch the "removal" video, first as the narrator explains details that are assumed in the "install" video.
Removing main bearings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU4pSs1bHps
Installing main bearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj7w_vwFZpM
Hope this helps.
You have to be careful with gearbox bearings, they're often a custom size/type for manufacturers. It might be worth double checking the dimensions once removed and checking they're the same as the common version.
I'd probably just go with genuine Yamaha one anyway, just to make sure.
Like Warwick says, heat and solid support underneath. A simple guide is if you spit on the case when heating it should just sizzle off (ie just over 100'c) then use a suitable sized socket to knock it out with.
Quote from: Martin77 on October 23, 2021, 10:52:55 PM
You have to be careful with gearbox bearings, they're often a custom size/type for manufacturers. It might be worth double checking the dimensions once removed and checking they're the same as the common version.
I'd probably just go with genuine Yamaha one anyway, just to make sure.
Like Warwick says, heat and solid support underneath. A simple guide is if you spit on the case when heating it should just sizzle off (ie just over 100'c) then use a suitable sized socket to knock it out with.
I'm sure you're right, best to take out the guess and go OEM (-P)
I've got a heat gun thingy to measure temperature (off the back of Juergen's header temp tips) so should be able to get to over 100 evenly and accurately. Just wondering if the majority of the heat should go to the inside or outside of the case? On the inside it's pretty close to the clutch end bearing, outside it's just removing that external oil pipe.
Bearing looks like a stock KOYO 83A915 to me, but maybe check the measurements of the one you remove to check, and compare the price and availability against the oe Yam Part? Might be nothing in the price anyway of course?
Heat gun should be fine. The case is not very thick and will transfer the heat pretty quickly, so just get the heat on the case on whichever side is most accessible I'd say. (-P)
Well done on your progress 8)
I would recommend a bearing puller set if you are going to be doing the others as well. You get them real cheap nowadays and the quality is not so bad, something like this:
(https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/images/Screen-Shot-2021-10-24-at-1.18.49-PM.th.png) (https://pure2strokespirit.net/chevereto/image/9XHT)
Works a treat on those and blind bearings, otherwise a home made threaded rod puller works well on the non-blind bearings.
That particular Koyo gearbox bearing (83A) is usually available from agents as the exact same one, that's the only one I could match exactly in the past. If you decide to do the rest then I would get OEM ones. The gearbox bearings have specific clearance specifications so even if you get same size bearing then it's not necessarily the same clearance. Bearing shops don't care much about the clearance specs normally and from my experience it's hard to cross reference bearings across different brands to get the exact same spec.
That 83 bearing is pretty easy to get out due to the access from the outside, a threaded rod with suitable sized support around the bearing and it's done. Getting the new one in I found a little trickier though, let us know how you get on. (-P)
Thanks for the pointers & advice Martin, Warwick & Karel!!
We have a winner!
I heated this from the outside as there looked more of the bearing face accessible for direct heat. I took of the rubber external oil pipe and moved the neutral switch lead out the way. Got it up to about 85 degrees and gave it a little exploratory tap and it dropped straight out! The overnight soak certainly helped here. The whole case had got pretty hot despite the directed heat at this area, but I fished the bearing out from under the case before it burnt a hole in the desk. I'll measure when it's cooled down, but for today - tools down and walking away ahead ;D
I'll recheck all the other bearings, I think this was the only one that was notchy, so I shouldn't need to get that bearing puller kit (for the engine at least - frame is another matter!)
Edit: You can see from the pic where the chain let go in the past and battered all in it's escape attempt
Good stuff! Yes, the plusGas does seem to help a lot in my experience. And it's always very satisfying when they come out without a fight. (-P)
NOS bearing £37. (-P)
For the install I plan on having the case the other way up, heating to at least 100 degrees and have the bearing in the freezer. It should drop right it with no drama (only on YouTube that happens). Nice that the bearing is sealed, so that can go in the freezer without moisture concerns. I'll give this a go tonight.
Just to note, while the bike is in bits and "dry" I have tweaked the humidity to below 45% in the garage.
In my experience they seem to go in about 3-4mm and then require some hammer action to get in. Should be ok though, just be sure it's straight before much hammering.
Yes, Karel said his install wasn't simple either! I'll make sure the case is stable and well supported in anticipation, thanks (-P)
You can use the old bearing as a driver.
Thought of that too Yan (-P). I set the case so the bearing recess was facing up, blocked and chocked so it was 100% stable. Selected a suitable socket for a no slip fit on the old bearing race, long 1/2 inch extension bar, friendly rubber hammer.
However..... not needed at all.
I heated the whole case up on half heat setting to about 35-40 degrees then went to work on the case around the bearing recess from the inside, focusing on the case around the hole rather than the recess itself. Got this up to about 110 degrees on the heat measuring guess-o-meter then took the bearing out the freezer and it dropped straight in with a clunk on the bottom of the recess! Literally just as easy as the YouTube videos! I even got it the right way up (not that it matters I don't think).
That - unless I'm very much mistaken (and I usually am) is the turning point of this project where I start reassembly.
(PS Steve - Wossner got back to my email and I've ordered the clips (-P))
Nice work! onwards and upwards...
Quote from: Martin77 on October 26, 2021, 09:46:57 PM
Nice work! onwards and upwards...
Thanks Martin (-P)
My next step is getting Thump's leak test bungs via Chippy to finish my leak tester. Actually, that's not quite right, my next step is a cold one ;D
Nice work, Rich. +1 on your intentional heating exclusively of the inner race to 110C. Believe the Iowa State Powersports Technology Prof preached that temp to be near the upper desired limit. It obviously worked for you.
Yes. Use this as a confidence building event. Lean on the successes when things might not be so sweet.
Good to hear about Wossner's response and service. I'm still waiting on their offer to settle my claim. At least it hasn't been "F"-off.
My best, bro. Drive on.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on October 27, 2021, 03:59:08 AM
Nice work, Rich. +1 on your intentional heating exclusively of the inner race to 110C. Believe the Iowa State Powersports Technology Prof preached that temp to be near the upper desired limit. It obviously worked for you.
Yes. Use this as a confidence building event. Lean on the successes when things might not be so sweet.
Good to hear about Wossner's response and service. I'm still waiting on their offer to settle my claim. At least it hasn't been "F"-off.
My best, bro. Drive on.
Steve
Thanks Steve. Next day service from Wossner here! (Shame the pics on the website are misleading!)
All gasket surfaces cleaned with gasket remover (really needed some ventilation with that O0)
One last clean with ATF all round and a wipe over with acetone and I'll be ready to fit the SP crank :o
Should have that done in the next couple of days.
Anyone the torque setting for the retaining plate screw for the sprocket bearing? I can't find it in the resources so I'm probably looking in the WRONG place for these! I presume it requires loctite too as that was on there when I took it off, I'm pretty sure.
Pretty low, only 8nm - this is from the 3xvb manual which has more info than the 3xv1 manual. It needs some red loctite as well.
Quote from: ybk on October 29, 2021, 10:10:24 PM
Pretty low, only 8nm - this is from the 3xvb manual which has more info than the 3xv1 manual. It needs some red loctite as well.
Perfect! Thanks Karel. It's quite tricky to know which manual to look at.. the 3XV8 one is sparse... I'll check the 3xvb one's too. (-P)
And here's the weekend. (Not that I will finish but to start it need to make sure I have everything TO start!)
Martin's work on heads/PVs/cylinders needs separate mention, so that'll be later, but be prepared to be impressed (-P)
Right now, stock take.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 29, 2021, 10:13:30 PM
...It's quite tricky to know which manual to look at.. the 3XV8 one is sparse... I'll check the 3xvb one's too. (-P)
That's just because the 3XV8 manual is just a model-specific addendum/replacement pages to the bigger 3XV1/2 manual, Rich. Put them together and you'll have a much fuller manual including the few bits where the 3XV8 differs to the earlier model/s. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on October 30, 2021, 01:07:55 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on October 29, 2021, 10:13:30 PM
...It's quite tricky to know which manual to look at.. the 3XV8 one is sparse... I'll check the 3xvb one's too. (-P)
That's just because the 3XV8 manual is just a model-specific addendum/replacement pages to the bigger 3XV1/2 manual, Rich. Put them together and you'll have a much fuller manual including the few bits where the 3XV8 differs to the earlier model/s. (-P)
Yes, I guessed that was the case, but wasn't sure if it was 3XV1/2 + 8 or all the ones in between. It also looks like later ones have extra information never shown in the previous judging from Karel's find in the 3XVB manual. ;D
More of a note to myself but looking back at ybk's post and others here's the next steps.
Crankcase surfaces cleaned with acetone.
Check all locating dowels are in correct places
Install crank shim on gearbox side (I have a pic of how this came out)
Grease internal surface crank seals, slide them on crank.
2T the crank bearings and big ends
GB oil the outer surface crank seals
1215 / Yamabond both sides of cases
[edit: install new crank water passage gasket]
Drop crank into gearbox side case, making sure 3 bearing's locating pins are correct
fit top end side crankcase making sure connecting rods don't poke out the inlets ;)
Follow the 2 stage torque guide to reinstall the 15 crankcase bolts.
I think that's it all.
Use a nirtle glove and use your finger to apply the 1215 case sealant. It's a whole lot easier than trying to use a stick or something.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on October 30, 2021, 07:40:47 PM
Use a nirtle glove and use your finger to apply the 1215 case sealant. It's a whole lot easier than trying to use a stick or something.
I used a thin edged plastic spatula that I found - it worked out perfect and absolutely doing this with the engine OUT of the frame is orders of magnitude easier!
One modification to the list above is the manual says something like "be aware bolt 8 has a seal". What it means is put some thread seal (such as Loctite blue) on that bolt, so that was the only change. Oh, and I did 3 stage rather than 2 stage on the case bolts, seemed like too big a jump for the M8s.
All buttoned up ;D
(-P)
Bit further on... Installed the reeds & inlets with new gaskets (Thanks maccas of course)
Red loctite arrived, so got the sprocket bearing retaining plate in back in and torque correct (thanks ybk)
Reinstalled the oil pipe between the two cases (really didn't want to forget that one!)
Unboxed the SP port from Martin77 (-P), and got the PV caps cleaned up and fitted new oil seals.
So one question - how does the new PV o-ring go on? (see last pic)
O ring goes under the sleeve/bush on the end shown (bush just twists/pulls off). They hardly ever actually need replacing though, so unless it was weeping splurge out of the inner end of the bush itself, the old one's probably fine. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on October 31, 2021, 08:49:29 PM
O ring goes under the sleeve/bush on the end shown (bush just twists/pulls off). They hardly ever actually need replacing though, so unless it was weeping splurge out of the inner end of the bush itself, the old one's probably fine. (-P)
Ah gotcha. the sleeve is a bit stuck and there's carbon goop at the end of the PV so I guess it's leaking a bit. I'll try a little heat but if it doesn't move after minor effort I'll think again. Thanks
Bit of PlusGas or WD40 or similar will help release it if it's a bit sticky.
Quote from: Warwick on October 31, 2021, 10:46:11 PM
Bit of PlusGas or WD40 or similar will help release it if it's a bit sticky.
Good idea - that's the night watchman for tonight!
Ok, that PV sleve is not coming off and I'm going to give up there before I damage something. Just not worth it IMHO. Installed the PVs and they turn freely an smoothly so I'm leaving it there. Even found some Moly.
I checked the ring gaps on the old new rings I found in the box I got with the bike. All at 0.3mm, better than the rings I took out, so installed them. Noticed the upper surface of the rings was marked with 'N' on the ones I took off, so installed the new ones 'N' side up. Triple checked the ring pegs were still there :o
So, the big reveal and a huge part of the derestriction - take a look and say hello to a Martin77 SP port - gaping exhaust port with PV machined to match and heads profiled to match the tuning. Really impressed with Martin's work on these and orders of magnitude cheaper than SP barrels/heads/rotary PVs (because you just can't get those!). Glad to have the eyes of someone that's seen more than his fair share of TZR parts over the bits from my bike, so happy this is all good to go in.
Next up is checking the crankcase gasket surfaces are super clean and pick a gasket to continue the build...
That one picture of the cylinder the plating around the exhaust port looks worn. You can see the darker colour where it's still good. And the lighter colour around the exhaust port edges where it's worn.
Looking smart, great progress 8)
The plating wasn't actually too bad at all, I usually give the port edges a quick rub with fine sandpaper after I've chamfered them just for a final smooth, which makes the sides of the ports look shinier than the other parts. More a trick of the light than any wear.
Most of the time when porting goes into lifting the transfer ports, the main exhaust ports takes no time to do.. well.. relatively..
Coming together well so far Rich!
Yes, I can see now how much work has gone in various shaping, raising and widening. Secondary exhaust ports too ;D
Heads look much more Tune-able now as the step has dropped down from 0.85 to 0.48-ish!
PS no one take any measurements I give here and start milling away, my measurements are relative but not accurate!
Progress update and lessons learned.
Don't install the PVs in the cylinder until you've put them on the cases. Never mind, wasn't a hassle with the engine on the bench.
Installed the pistons with the new clips (thanks SeaRick for spotting that near disaster) onto the crank, setting the clip gaps at the top. Lots of 2T involved with new small end bearings and a plastic tool used for opening laptop cases to ease the clips into their grooves. I found it helpful to install one clip with the piston on the bench first, and making sure that would leave me the one with the easiest access when on the crank.
Progress being lots of cleaning of threads and gasket surfaces. Speaking of which I had the choice of two gaskets, although I wasn't too sure which was the 0.8 and which was the 0.7 - so I installed the pink one.
Next up on go the cylinders. I found it easiest to bring the piston out and squeeze the rings around the peg with one hand while pushing the cylinder on with the other. Good news is where the pins are (either side of the C port, it's quite easy to see they are perfectly positioned before committing into the bore. Really annoying I have two torque wrenches. One from low to 25NM, the other one starts at 40NM. Cylinder bolts on at 27.5NM, great ::) I'll let Steve see if he can spot his contribution in the pic (it's the shiny one) ;D
All really easy stuff, so next step is measuring squish. The solder I have is 1.1mm so that's good. PVs back on and old gaskets on to start the squish test. I have to clean up the cylinder head nuts first so I can get a good torque set (luckily these are in the range of my smaller wrench)
IMO check the deck height which is more important than the squish. With the piston a TDC, the piston should be 0.3mm below the top of the barrel. I use a feeler gauge (on top of the piston) and my finger nail to find the step from the top of the gauge to the barrel. You'd be surprised how accurate it is. Use different base gaskets to get the deck height correct.
Quote from: mellorp on November 03, 2021, 03:48:03 PM
IMO check the deck height which is more important than the squish. With the piston a TDC, the piston should be 0.3mm below the top of the barrel. I use a feeler gauge (on top of the piston) and my finger nail to find the step from the top of the gauge to the barrel. You'd be surprised how accurate it is. Use different base gaskets to get the deck height correct.
Excellent :) Thanks for this tip Phil. I'm yet to button up for keeps(!) so great timing on the advice!
but you still have to check the squish clearance, because the head has been altered, regardless of the piston position at TDC.
If the head hadn't been altered, and you know what deck height gives what squish clearance, then Phil's way is good.
Quote from: Martin77 on November 03, 2021, 06:17:00 PM
but you still have to check the squish clearance, because the head has been altered, regardless of the piston position at TDC.
If the head hadn't been altered, and you know what deck height gives what squish clearance, then Phil's way is good.
Absolutely - I've checked the ring gaps so far; I will check deck height & squish then leak down test & compression test before I put a spark near! :)
So my deck height is 0.45... checked with feeler gauges and the butt end of the callipers. Nothing got squished (1mm solder).
Perhaps the pink gaskets are too thick.
Unless I'm doing something monumentally daft?
(Edit: Used an old head gasket as this would be most crushed, torqued the head to 22NM evenly in stages and on pattern, hand turned the crank for a few laps)
Thinner base gaskets needed then..
Quote from: Martin77 on November 03, 2021, 08:51:17 PM
Thinner base gaskets needed then..
Looks like it! I'm using the 0.8mm ones.
I guess the important thing for me to do is check the other barrel and make sure I get
exactly the same result... I'll do that now and it'll rule out any muppetry on my part.
Just for reference, the oe base gasket is .6
Quote from: Warwick on November 03, 2021, 09:04:31 PM
Just for reference, the oe base gasket is .6
Ah, thanks! If I get the same results on the other side I'll temporarily use the old base gasket and see what that comes out to in terms of deck & squish. (I can get 0.5mm ones from Dan's site)
Double checked both sides with oe base gaskets. Deck height is 0.25 by the fingernail/feeler test. So that's gone down by the calculated amount (0.15mm).
Still no nibbles on the solder. :o
Standard spec must be running at nearly 1.8mm - 2mm squish ;D
Time to visit... https://www.gasketguru.co.uk/product/yamaha-tzr-250-3xv-91-98-cylinder-base-gasket-various-thickness-pair-replaces-3xv-11351-10-premium-quality/?attribute_thickness=0.5mm (https://www.gasketguru.co.uk/product/yamaha-tzr-250-3xv-91-98-cylinder-base-gasket-various-thickness-pair-replaces-3xv-11351-10-premium-quality/?attribute_thickness=0.5mm)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 03, 2021, 11:38:49 PM
Standard spec must be running at nearly 1.8mm - 2mm squish ;D
Yes, I've measured a few stock ones at around 1.6 or so.
Unless you are trying to win a championship, I wouldn't worry about setting the squish much lower than 1mm or so myself. Safe is better (cheaper) than a rebuild.... (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on November 04, 2021, 12:40:53 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 03, 2021, 11:38:49 PM
Standard spec must be running at nearly 1.8mm - 2mm squish ;D
Yes, I've measured a few stock ones at around 1.6 or so.
Unless you are trying to win a championship, I wouldn't worry about setting the squish much lower than 1mm or so myself. Safe is better (cheaper) than a rebuild.... (-P)
Good advice. Anywhere between 0.9
and 1 is target, just to get things working correctly rather than squeeze out an extra 0.5hp in trade for annual rebuilds ;D
You can always build the top end without using any base gaskets for a reference measurement... I usually wrap the end of the solder back around itself to make a much thicker clump when the measurement is larger than the solder itself.
Quote from: Martin77 on November 04, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
You can always build the top end without using any base gaskets for a reference measurement... I usually wrap the end of the solder back around itself to make a much thicker clump when the measurement is larger than the solder itself.
Thanks! I'll do that tonight and see where I'm at. I could be anywhere between 1.05mm and 1.2mm right now. Adding the deck + head gasket + CH step (I'm sure there's a technical name for that!) should have given me 0.9mm so my calculations or more likely measurements are out somehow.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 03, 2021, 01:04:12 AM
I'll let Steve see if he can spot his contribution in the pic (it's the shiny one) ;D
Yes. From Japan to Washington DC to Elberfeld, Indiana to Rich's Bike on the English South Coast. That unique 10mm cylinder bolt has a bit of history. Glad to see it's found a good home.
Good Luck on the rest of your build, Rich.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on November 04, 2021, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 03, 2021, 01:04:12 AM
I'll let Steve see if he can spot his contribution in the pic (it's the shiny one) ;D
Yes. From Japan to Washington DC to Elberfeld, Indiana to Rich's Bike on the English South Coast. That unique 10mm cylinder bolt has a bit of history. Glad to see it's found a good home.
Good Luck on the rest of your build, Rich.
Steve
An achievement in itself but even more impressive when you factor in that the connector clips you sent to me probably followed the same journey and are now within 50 miles of the parts you've sent Rich! A testament to your generousity and the camaraderie of
motorcyclists ...
2-stroke enthusiasts ... 3XV nutters!
@Rich . Still loving the thread and reading regularly. Loving the cascade of information and experience. I hope that oneday someone reads my thread with the same interest and appreciation.
Can't wait for the next South Coast meet up.
Quote from: AndyYam on November 04, 2021, 11:32:51 PM
Quote from: Steveog on November 04, 2021, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 03, 2021, 01:04:12 AM
I'll let Steve see if he can spot his contribution in the pic (it's the shiny one) ;D
Yes. From Japan to Washington DC to Elberfeld, Indiana to Rich's Bike on the English South Coast. That unique 10mm cylinder bolt has a bit of history. Glad to see it's found a good home.
Good Luck on the rest of your build, Rich.
Steve
An achievement in itself but even more impressive when you factor in that the connector clips you sent to me probably followed the same journey and are now within 50 miles of the parts you've sent Rich! A testament to your generousity and the camaraderie of motorcyclists ... 2-stroke enthusiasts ... 3XV nutters!
@Rich . Still loving the thread and reading regularly. Loving the cascade of information and experience. I hope that oneday someone reads my thread with the same interest and appreciation.
Can't wait for the next South Coast meet up.
I'm keeping an eagle eye on your thread for the rolling chassis side, and there's others in projects and resources for bits you may not be doing, like the front fork rebuilds! Hopefully when you get to the engine this catalogue of errors will serve (-P)
I think we'll both be ready for Spring @ Loomies Andy...
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:24:50 AM
Quote from: Martin77 on November 04, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
You can always build the top end without using any base gaskets for a reference measurement... I usually wrap the end of the solder back around itself to make a much thicker clump when the measurement is larger than the solder itself.
Thanks! I'll do that tonight and see where I'm at. I could be anywhere between 1.05mm and 1.2mm right now. Adding the deck + head gasket + CH step (I'm sure there's a technical name for that!) should have given me 0.9mm so my calculations or more likely measurements are out somehow.
As per pics - I have squish! 1.1mm on both sides. That's with oe gaskets base & head and an observed deck of approx 0.25.
Custom thickness gaskets are on order from Dan. Pretty lucky we have this service for the 3XV otherwise it'd be down the shops buying cereal boxes of questionable quality and longevity! (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:46:24 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:24:50 AM
Quote from: Martin77 on November 04, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
You can always build the top end without using any base gaskets for a reference measurement... I usually wrap the end of the solder back around itself to make a much thicker clump when the measurement is larger than the solder itself.
Thanks! I'll do that tonight and see where I'm at. I could be anywhere between 1.05mm and 1.2mm right now. Adding the deck + head gasket + CH step (I'm sure there's a technical name for that!) should have given me 0.9mm so my calculations or more likely measurements are out somehow.
As per pics - I have squish! 1.1mm on both sides. That's with oe gaskets base & head and an observed deck of approx 0.25.
Custom thickness gaskets are on order from Dan. Pretty lucky we have this service for the 3XV otherwise it'd be down the shops buying cereal boxes of questionable quality and longevity! (-P)
Thats great! I had no idea this was something that was needed to be done.
Your comment about cereal boxes reminded me of a DT125R I went to view where the seller was willing to include the spare gaskets he'd made. These were Kellogs Cornflakes boxes cut out roughly in the shape of the cylinder head.
He was also keen to point out that it had an "banging" engine number which made it "rare as rocking horse s**t". He then pointed to "1N2345" :o ;D 8) (-P)
To finish it off perfectly he told me he had fitted a brand new powerband the week before that was uprated compared to the normal one.
Quote from: AndyYam on November 05, 2021, 12:07:51 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:46:24 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:24:50 AM
Quote from: Martin77 on November 04, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
You can always build the top end without using any base gaskets for a reference measurement... I usually wrap the end of the solder back around itself to make a much thicker clump when the measurement is larger than the solder itself.
Thanks! I'll do that tonight and see where I'm at. I could be anywhere between 1.05mm and 1.2mm right now. Adding the deck + head gasket + CH step (I'm sure there's a technical name for that!) should have given me 0.9mm so my calculations or more likely measurements are out somehow.
As per pics - I have squish! 1.1mm on both sides. That's with oe gaskets base & head and an observed deck of approx 0.25.
Custom thickness gaskets are on order from Dan. Pretty lucky we have this service for the 3XV otherwise it'd be down the shops buying cereal boxes of questionable quality and longevity! (-P)
Thats great! I had no idea this was something that was needed to be done.
Your comment about cereal boxes reminded me of a DT125R I went to view where the seller was willing to include the spare gaskets he'd made. These were Kellogs Cornflakes boxes cut out roughly in the shape of the cylinder head.
He was also keen to point out that it had an "banging" engine number which made it "rare as rocking horse s**t". He then pointed to "1N2345" :o ;D 8) (-P)
To finish it off perfectly he told me he had fitted a brand new powerband the week before that was uprated compared to the normal one.
Classic ;D ;D ;D
That's about as good as a teenager and this one guy. Rebuilt this dt250 with pepsi cans as the base gasket. Some random used 4stroke piston rings that were much thicker than the dt's piston.
After like a week of using hand filling tools on the dt piston to make the 4 stroke rings fit. Tells us he's gonna get it running.
Pushed it up his driveway which was paved and a decent incline about 40 yards.
Bumped started it we thought he was gonna face plant. Surprisingly it actually started for about 5 mins.
Those last two stories are both hilarious, inspirational and depressing, Andy and Rick.
When you spend all your effort to get things beyond factory spec and it locks up? More than once? That's depressing.
However, the best medicine for depression is laughter and you both made me laugh out loud. Cereal boxes and aluminum cans for gaskets? A power-band has been added?
This is what makes 2T's so interesting...even magical.
There has not been one track day that the 3xv hasn't attracted several younger riders...even track directors.
The 2T mythology grows stronger every year. It seems our job to keep it alive.
Thanks guys.
Steve
PS - Appreciate your kind words, Andy. All part of a continuing story. If we don't share it...
Quote from: Steveog on November 05, 2021, 02:23:49 AM
Those last two stories are both hilarious, inspirational and depressing, Andy and Rick.
When you spend all your effort to get things beyond factory spec and it locks up? More than once? That's depressing.
However, the best medicine for depression is laughter and you both made me laugh out loud. Cereal boxes and aluminum cans for gaskets? A power-band has been added?
This is what makes 2T's so interesting...even magical.
There has not been one track day that the 3xv hasn't attracted several younger riders...even track directors.
The 2T mythology grows stronger every year. It seems our job to keep it alive.
Thanks guys.
Steve
PS - Appreciate your kind words, Andy. All part of a continuing story. If we don't share it...
What is it about DT's? I remember I was selling my DT175 and had done a couple of bits to it. A chap and his dad came round to look at it and I couldn't get it started. To make it easier to kick I moved it over to a low wall and had one foot on that and the other kicking. Of course after about 15 attempts I slipped off the wall and down the higher side into the garden with the bike topping over after me.
DT. What's with that?
(PS I found out the next day the line fuel filter I had fitted had kinked the fuel line. Those two never came back to view the bike)
Back in the garage not much to do until the new base gaskets arrive so best to clean up the CH gasket surfaces so I get accurate squish, good compression and no CH leaks. Using a Stanley blade with a little 2T and pulling the blade rather than pushing it, an hours work and things look good. Needs an acetone clean still mind you.
In prep for the gaskets (got a tracking #, so won't be long!) I have reviewed my digital calliper technique by measuring feeler gauges. All good so I'm ready for squish test!
I have made a rig to go with Ron's leak down test kit - that'll be the next static test, then it's motor back in the frame time (and about time as the garage doesn't have enough room to swing an 8mm spanner.
Further thoughts on the Zeel initial setup I'll share later, but we're a while off puffing smoke....
Gaskets! 0.4mm and 0.5mm to get squish to around 0.9mm
Huge thanks to Dan from www.gasketguru.co.uk (http://www.gasketguru.co.uk)
I'm concerned. Any ideas welcome.
Running the 0.4mm base gaskets gives me a squish of between 0.85-0.9mm which sounds good.
However... I have zero deck height and that concerns me. I've tried a couple of patterns of solder with the same results but something doesn't make sense.
Zero deck height + 0.45mm combustion step + 0.2mm old head gasket = 0.65mm (too low), but I'm reading 0.85mm min (about right).
The squishband is a larger diameter in the head than the bore, and the angle means the further the squish starts from the bore, the larger the clearance. This is to allow the head to be mounted a little off centre (same spec as oem Yamaha). If you fit little pegs to locate the head to the cylinder you can be more precise.. a la TZ.
Also the edge of the squish in the head would have a little radius, so measuring the depth can be quite hard and not always representative of what the squish will be when fitted.
Personally, I would always go with the measured squish clearance, which sounds ideal now.
Thanks Martin!
So both sides came out the same. 0.85-0.9mm. The cylinders had the little metal guides for the studs so that was good and should mean all well there.
Bit the bullet and cracked open those really expensive head gaskets - correct side down and very carefully centralised on the barrel before dropping the heads on. New head gaskets and some fishing hooks of solder poked through the plug hole and it's 0.9mm per side. Just about perfect for my aims.
PS - when reinstalling barrels, it's easy to forget this cable stay.
Next step is checking for leaks. So I have the kit from Ron, and made up some high pressure push fit (don't laugh, the kit off the bike held 6psi overnight without any drop).
I think I've got the exhaust clamps the wrong way around though as it won't take any pressure. Spray bottle of fairy required!
Major leaks around the manifolds/reed cages. I'll pop these both off and threebond as per ybk's rebuild thread.
(oh and I did forget the oil feed pipes ;D blanked off with some heat shrink)
Very nice progress 8) Those manifolds are a headache, so many sealing surfaces..
Also forgot to seal the oil feeds once, was very confusing for a while ;D
Good to spot the leaks now before it goes back into the chassis or worse when you finally fire it up :) (-P)
Quote from: ybk on November 13, 2021, 04:17:56 AM
Very nice progress 8) Those manifolds are a headache, so many sealing surfaces..
Also forgot to seal the oil feeds once, was very confusing for a while ;D
Thanks Karel. I'm sealing up with 1215 now, how long should I give this to cure before another leak down test?
Quote from: thump566 on November 13, 2021, 10:11:29 AM
Good to spot the leaks now before it goes back into the chassis or worse when you finally fire it up :) (-P)
Agreed! I specifically wanted to see the crankcase repair was holding so the gearbox is still out too. However, intake leaks are far worse than the other side of the reed block. This is an insightful video from my pal from Norway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtJdWwrnp68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtJdWwrnp68)
While waiting for the threebond to set on the reed blocks, I did a few housekeeping things.
One was to reset my right footrest to the right orientation (it was folding straight up instead of backwards at 45 degrees). I thought that the Allen bolt would be tough and seized, but no... it was finger tight (just like the right hand engine bolt). So good in two ways, now I have the peg right and secondly it won't fall off with the rear brake. Ahem.
Back on the derestriction (getting back to the topic of the thread!) I've gone up on the main jets. All jetting was stock 3XV8 so now the upper has gone from 200 to 220 and the lower from 270 to 290. That should be a good start for tuning as it should be starting rich.
Turns out I was using 1138, not 1215. :(
Got a few leaks around the reed/manfold. Taken these off again and cleaned up with acetone. I guess 1215 should be better as it has higher pressure resistance according to the chart. https://threebond.com/wp-content/uploads/Products-Guide_ver6-LOCAL.pdf (https://threebond.com/wp-content/uploads/Products-Guide_ver6-LOCAL.pdf)
Maybe I didn't leave it long enough to cure? About 30 hours @ 15 C and 40% humidity, but I think 1215 is the way to go.
Anyway, the initial results were good on one side, got it up to 6psi then it pinged the leak down tester input off the inlet manifold with a big POP and it just missed my head ;D
Couple of updates. First the Suzuki Bandit gear linkage boots work well enough for the PV boots. The shape is round on the seal rather than flat, but I can live with it.
Second. The TB1215 has arrived! After speaking with Karel the following plan is now at stage 1...
- Apply 1215 to surfaces and lightly torque
- After 12 hours or so, fully torque to spec
- After 24 hours, leak test
Success on the Threebond TB1215 reed/intake sealant (-P)
The only leaks are from the test kit, which may have been 3d printed(?) as the inlet stub seems porous and would benefit from an epoxy seal/paint.
However, leak test is done and all good, I'll leave any further improvement to Ron and I'm cooking on!
Engine back in the frame! Carbs back on, clutch cable back on, fuel and clutch routed properly. Next up is to look up the torque settings for the engine bolts and prime and refit the oil pipes.
Then a big torque up of the crank primary bolt. (Balance & Crank gear dots are aligned)
I did see a curious thing on the case under the water pump side. Looks like a pressed ball bearing. Maybe for manufacture?
Should there be some sort of cover for this? (See second pic for an odd rubber bit on the top of the engine)
Good progress (-P).
Both of those blanking bungs are as they should be so nothing to worry about there. 8)
Quote from: Warwick on November 20, 2021, 06:43:42 PM
Good progress (-P).
Both of those blanking bungs are as they should be so nothing to worry about there. 8)
Cool - off the worry list! Thanks!
Next off the worry list (well nearly all of them) are the jobs I really hate - high torque bolts :o
Crank bolt, thanks to soft aluminium jammer - was actually really easy.
Flywheel was a real pain until I found a helpful feature in the TZR frame that snugly accepts a 15mm socket! (I thought I'd do this rather than ask because I'm sure it's a bodge way of doing things)
Rear sprocket will be a breeze too because that's just a piece of wood between the wheel and the swing arms.
Dreading the clutch though :-[
Great progress, Rich. Yes, laying heavy torque loads on those crucial bolts is always a bit of concern. The good news: Yamaha made those bolts and treads out of good quality metal. I have stripped a few stainless bolts in aluminum threads, but never had the primary drive or clutch basket cause any problems.
Stay deliberate and it will all work.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on November 20, 2021, 08:43:15 PM
Great progress, Rich. Yes, laying heavy torque loads on those crucial bolts is always a bit of concern. The good news: Yamaha made those bolts and treads out of good quality metal. I have stripped a few stainless bolts in aluminum threads, but never had the primary drive or clutch basket cause any problems.
Stay deliberate and it will all work.
Steve
All good for now - left side all buttoned up and stator cover on.
Still wondering about the dreaded clutch - it's the basket I worry about. That's the last ohsh!t moment and then it'll all be plain sailing.
A bit of free time, not waiting on any items and we're there (well almost). Both sides buttoned up, new clutch fitted and static tested. I expect there might be a little smoke off that first time as the metal plates out of the packet were not shiny.
Is there any useful information I could learn from a cold compression test? If so I'll do that.
Gearbox oil, then on to rad and hoses, then get the PVs reattached and drop the battery in for testing PV sync/oil pump sync.
Inspirational stuff Rich. I'm learning loads off this thread. (-P)
Coming together nicely Rich, but no need for a compression test... I don't even own a tester..
Almost ready for start up. Good stuff!
Quote from: Mananon on November 21, 2021, 04:34:04 AM
Inspirational stuff Rich. I'm learning loads off this thread. (-P)
Me too! ;D
Quote from: Martin77 on November 21, 2021, 11:42:22 AM
Coming together nicely Rich, but no need for a compression test... I don't even own a tester..
One less thing to do, thanks! (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on November 21, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
Almost ready for start up. Good stuff!
Thanks, could even been today! It's gone back on quite trouble free (so far)
I have decided to do the power valves before cluttering up with hoses & rad - refitted the mechanism with the bandit rubber boot. I'll need to find the key for the bike and grab the laptop to get these set up correctly with the Zeel. At least I can feel/look into the exhaust ports with everything out the way.
Is you lower PV plate fitted correctly? Looks 180 degrees out to me? Easiest way to ensure correct fitment is to manually set the PVs to full open and then fit the plates. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on November 21, 2021, 01:12:09 PM
Is you lower PV plate fitted correctly? Looks 180 degrees out to me? Easiest way to ensure correct fitment is to manually set the PVs to full open and then fit the plates. (-P)
Whoops! You're quite right. I checked my disassembly pictures and it's backwards ;D
That saved me straining some NLA parts.
It's easy to get careless when it's all seemingly easy street. Thanks for spotting this (-P)
PV back on the right way around. (thanks Warwick)
Limits checked and set within the Zeel programming. Notice I have set one map to have PV open 100% at startup. As I can switch maps that gives me 2 options to see which is easiest starting.
Oil pump aligned (with ignition on, after the system cycles).
Just a suggestion here: I'm not sure of any additional wiring mods you might have done, but if it's very straightforward for you to swap between the two, might it not be a good idea to get things running with the oe ignition first? The oe ignition is a known and very safe system, which might be ideal for bedding things in and general testing etc. It'd also give you a useful baseline for the 'new' motor to fully unleash with the Zeel once everything is tested safe and running well etc.?
Ha! I'm getting old and cautious... ;D
Some might say that we manage to get old because we are cautious. ???
So many of us will be grateful for this thread and even more so by the additional priceless nuggets offered by the experts (-P)
Sit rep - everything is back on, and fluids have been added. Can't run it up tonight as it's too late and I want the stove flu sealant to go off on the exhaust.
Forgot how annoying the rad was to refit ;D The key is not install the rad hose until you've hooked the rad over the stud on the left hand side.
It's sat on pads so I can see if it lost any vital fluids tomorrow.
Quote from: Warwick on November 21, 2021, 06:02:12 PM
Just a suggestion here: I'm not sure of any additional wiring mods you might have done, but if it's very straightforward for you to swap between the two, might it not be a good idea to get things running with the oe ignition first? The oe ignition is a known and very safe system, which might be ideal for bedding things in and general testing etc. It'd also give you a useful baseline for the 'new' motor to fully unleash with the Zeel once everything is tested safe and running well etc.?
Ha! I'm getting old and cautious... ;D
Yes I thought of this! I've copied the -00 ignition settings from Juergens post onto the Zeel (I have saved the Borut map). So in practice, I'll be on the safe map.
Quote from: thump566 on November 21, 2021, 07:05:57 PM
Some might say that we manage to get old because we are cautious. ???
So many of us will be grateful for this thread and even more so by the additional priceless nuggets offered by the experts (-P)
Thanks Ron. Most annoying bit was having to go find torque settings even though I thought I'd found them out and written them all down!!
As that first start approaches, I am one of many sharing your anticipation for that first cloud of blue smoke. Just be ready for some final touch-ups. Checking the torque on crucial nuts and bolts, carb slide sync, cables and places that might leak, etc. As we all know, the construction of a 3xv is never really finished.
As always, good luck.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on November 21, 2021, 09:50:37 PM
As that first start approaches, I am one of many sharing your anticipation for that first cloud of blue smoke. Just be ready for some final touch-ups. Checking the torque on crucial nuts and bolts, carb slide sync, cables and places that might leak, etc. As we all know, the construction of a 3xv is never really finished.
As always, good luck.
Steve
Yes, still a lot on the cards before going to the dyno!
Starting and getting a reasonable idle is a nervous part. I've been fighting with the idle & airscrew on this bike for a while, as there were no doubt intake air leaks, plus the hole in the crankcase! It's bound to be all at sea but starting with a safe -00 ignition is good advice.
First run up I expect to try to get the idles best as possible for a stable idle, hopefully under 1,500 rpm but I'd take that. Blipping up to 5-6k until the thermostat opens should give me sight of any water leaks.
Tuning in the idle, I may do another heat cycle before, is all about pulling a plug out (and suitably grounding it) to work one side at a time. Getting the air screw and idle pinned. Probably when running again with both plugs the idle will probably need a both side tweak down a smidge.
Shame the MOT ran out part way through this build (needs to go for a roadworthy test before riding on the public highway) but there's plenty to do before that. CH torque for sure is one to think on!
A lot to do!
Just one last thing to do before start up (delaying tactics some might say)... fit the Tyga cans on my Jackal pipes.
A tiny bit of fettling required but at least it gave me the chance to get the orientation corrected on the left hand pipe. Those that went to Loomies for the South Coast Meet will recall it was a bit wall-eyed on that side.
I'll attempt a start up tomorrow.
Garage has been taken over by my son's 600 Bandit - carb service, oil and filters... however I reviewed the Zeel maps and have a couple of options for first start, easily switchable from the buttons on the dash.
Ignition advance 19 (stock 3XV Zeel) or 21 (stock CDI)
PV 0% open (stock Zeel) or 100% open (stock CDI)
In all instances the shift light is set at 6k.
First start up soon ?:-| (anyone recall the posts I made about the high speed idle and dieseling I got once will understand my nervous approach!)
Sure all will be well. Check that the throttle cables are routed well and operating smoothly, and that the slides are sitting in the throttle stops themselves (set very low) and not hanging on the cables at all. That should ensure no high rev dramas on start up. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on November 25, 2021, 11:41:02 PM
Sure all will be well. Check that the throttle cables are routed well and operating smoothly, and that the slides are sitting in the throttle stops themselves (set very low) and not hanging on the cables at all. That should ensure no high rev dramas on start up. (-P)
Thanks Warwick- I'll check the slides and stops (-P) (-P)
Thanks Warwick. I just needed that little nudge. I reset the airscrews (2 left 1.5 right), Dropped the idle screws right down, and gave it a prod (well, several prods until I realised I needed a crack of throttle).
RUNS REAL NICE! No leaks, and blue smoke even on both sides (that doesn't stink of gearbox oil for the first time ever) Thank you to ALL.
One heat cycle done. A couple more to do then I'll tune in the airscrews individually and get the idle set. For those interested in the Zeel options, I went with stock CDI for this startup.
Great stuff Rich, must be satisfying to have done it yourself, makes me think that next time mine needs doing ill be doing it myself too.
Was it easier , or harder than you thought to arrive at this point?
Did you keep a tally of the hours it took to complete?
Congratulations. Enjoy the adrenaline...you've earned it.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on November 26, 2021, 11:01:29 PM
Congratulations. Enjoy the adrenaline...you've earned it.
Steve
It was quite a rush to get those first blips in and see the crisp 2T smoke behind me ^-^
Quote from: bulldogboy on November 26, 2021, 10:57:39 PM
Great stuff Rich, must be satisfying to have done it yourself, makes me think that next time mine needs doing ill be doing it myself too.
Was it easier , or harder than you thought to arrive at this point?
Did you keep a tally of the hours it took to complete?
I think in hours, I'm more ponderous than most, I'd say probably 10 hours a week since this started, but a lot of that was exploring, researching and learning. Sure it'd take a seasoned expert a day to do what I have done but that's not me (or the UK postal service)! Very rewarding given the bad experiences I've had with this bike.
Your question as to was it easier or harder got me thinking a lot. Very good question at this point in the derestriction, at which point I have held up my side of the bargain - the list of objectives I set out.
I think the honest answer is complex. Yes, it took longer than I thought it would (MoT is expired now), but some of that was waiting on parts from JP. The hard work done by Martin77, I would never have been able to do. Also the CDI replacement of a Zeel was building on the shoulders of others who gave us this tech. Zeel programming & setup I'm super confident with (most thanks to Juergen in his spreadsheet), but bending on 91NM I'm not at all!
The most honest answer would be that without this forum I would have found this impossible. Not just knowledge, but support. I was really trying not to attempt the first start but Warwick helped me over the line, posts from other many years ago (or more recently, ybk!) have served as inspiration. The determination from posts such as Steve's major rebuilds help and having met a handful of you in person adds to the "you are not alone" sense. Yan helped me remove the gearbox in my early TZR days, that was a skill taken forwards. Yes, there have been times I've had to take a step back to move forwards but those have been mercifully few.
SO - Easier - "yes", taken longer than expected - "yes", and possible without this forum? - "No". The eagle eyed will notice the motto on my number plate ;)
The to-do list is getting smaller...
1. Break in & MoT
2. Dyno time!
I think everyone gets anxious prior to the first start up of an engine rebuild! So far so good though...
Quote from: Martin77 on November 27, 2021, 11:19:13 AM
I think everyone gets anxious prior to the first start up of an engine rebuild! So far so good though...
Thanks Martin! On the first run up the header temps went up evenly together as measured by a laser temp sensor so that was an added bonus ;D
Next heat cycle put in (-P)
7C and 50%, started 2nd kick on choke. Nice idle, doesn't die when regaining that idle from being blipped up. It'a running up 2 sizes on MJ both sides, which should hopefully be rich but certainly not lean. Tyga cans sound nice and even up the length differences a bit ;D
EDIT: You can't beat the smell of 2T smoke on a crisp Sunday morning. Smells like - race day.
My friend likes to call it aroma therapy. O0
Agreed, Robert Duvall might have said "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" but don't think he could have experienced the sweet aroma of a 2 Stroke ???
Ring ding a ding.... 4th heat cycle today.
It was a bit sketchy starting up after 2+ months but fired up eventually and behaved nicely. I'd say 10-20 kick then leave it for a few mins. Always seems to start on 1st kick when you come back to it! Temps up to 80 then back down to 60. Blipped the neighbourhood for about 15-20mins. Lovely 2T smoke everywhere.
MoT is the next step, then I can complete the running-in on the road. So far one leaky fuel pipe is the sum total of issues but I think my Zeel is over closing the PVs. I'll check the settings on that, which is no drama with Borut's Windows App, and adjust before going out on the road.
So far so good.
Nice one Rich, get in run in for the next Loomies/ Box hill meet, roll on the warmer weather. (-P)
Thanks Gav (-P)
Can we better 6 bikes next time? ::)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on February 05, 2022, 04:45:45 PM
It was a bit sketchy starting up after 2+ months but fired up eventually and behaved nicely. I'd say 10-20 kick then leave it for a few mins. Always seems to start on 1st kick when you come back to it!
You've got me wondering, Rich. Is this easier start-up after waiting a few minutes is a Zeel kind of thing. Mine just did the same thing. It sat for about a month, being kept at around 20C via radiant heat and and 30-40% humidity (de-humidifier). Wanted to get the juices flowing, so I too gave it about 20 kicks on choke. Tank low, but there was fuel in the float bowls (I know, Phil. I should have drained the carbs). Some of the attempts gave a bit of kick-back, but no joy or even a cough. Then (leg worn out) I added a bit more fuel. About 5 minutes later, it fired on first kick and revved cleanly to 7-8K. All good and idled on no choke.
Could we have stumbled onto the solution for a new Zeel start-up routine...or just fooled by coincidence? I have no theory on why this would work due to the Zeel, but it did work. Mine is set with factory timing, no TPS or VAJ's with PV's activated between 7K-10K.
It was (-13C) here last night. About to take the bike's temp. Currently (-7C ambient). Mid afternoon.
Good Luck
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on February 05, 2022, 09:50:52 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on February 05, 2022, 04:45:45 PM
It was a bit sketchy starting up after 2+ months but fired up eventually and behaved nicely. I'd say 10-20 kick then leave it for a few mins. Always seems to start on 1st kick when you come back to it!
You've got me wondering, Rich. is this easier start-up after waiting a few minutes is a Zeel kind of thing. Mine just did the same thing. It sat for about a month, being kept at around 20C via radiant heat and and 30-40% humidity (de-humidifier). Wanted to get the juices flowing, so I too gave it about 20 kicks on choke. Tank low, but there was fuel in the float bowls (I know, Phil. I should have drained the carbs). Some of the attempts gave a bit of kick-back, but no joy or even a cough. Then (leg worn out) I added a bit more fuel. About 5 minutes later, it fired on first kick and revved cleanly to 7-8K. All good and idled on no choke.
Could we have stumbled onto the solution for a new Zeel start-up routine...or just fooled by coincidence? I have no theory on why this would work due to the Zeel, but it did work. Mine is set with factory timing, no TPS or VAJ's with PV's activated between 7K-10K.
It was (-13C) here last night. About to take the bike's temp. Currently (-7C ambient). Mid afternoon.
Good Luck
Steve
My Zeel is set up as a -00 CDI right now with the same sub 5k ignition curve and the PVs open under 900rpm.
I think it's just the fuel getting into the system starts to evaporate after a few mins which gets extra easy combustible contents.
20 Kicks with choke is enough to start to flood the plug I'd say?
+8C here and 65%. Can't imagine living in that cold but that low temp and high density would be awesome for the dyno ;D
Edit: I keep mine at 10-15c and 45 humidity (heaters and dehumidifier). Yours is perfect conditions but I get critical comments about the electric bill ;D
I too ,on Rich's advice, set the PVs to open on startup.
My bike with the standard zeel set up of PVS closed at startup was a bitch to start, when i swapped to standard cdi ( pvs open on startup) it fired like first or second kick.
So with Rich's settings i mimicked that in the zeel.
Hi Gavin. I DID reset my Zeel PV's first setting to (Fully Closed) this past summer. It had been set on 100% (from the first to the next trigger point where is then went back to (0) until 7K. I'll reset the PV's to its former spec.
I don't believe mine was flooded, Rich. Your theory on fuel density makes some sense, but believe both you and Gavin has given me something to try on another winter re-start. Reverend Phil and SeaRick have both pointed out that at best a Zeel equipped bike takes a few jabs to light up, but 20 kicks is just a waste of energy before a track session.
Yes, our climate here varies wildly between summer and winter. Record high was 43.8C (1930). Record low was -29.4C (1977). I've been pretty neglectful of the 3xv in the past 3 winters. Just parked and covered in my shop. This year, I took an active approach in attempting to control the bikes environment. That and starting it once a month.
Thanks, boys.
Steve
One thing to consider here is that with the PV's open at start up you have less compression. I would therefore expect the starting fuel circuit to be jetted for this condition on a standard CDI out of the box.
Some of my bikes start no problem, regardless of how long they have stood, others are a swine to start. It's a 2 stroke thing. The motors need to be used on a regular basis. Think back to being a kid. Bike parked outside your parents house in all weather. You didn't turn the fuel off. You probably didn't even check the tyre pressure. You didn't care what 2T oil went in there as long as it was cheap. But you used it every day to go to work/college/pub and out for a ride at the weekend with your mates. They got fresh fuel every couple of days. And it started 1st or 2nd kick.
My point is do we mollycoddle these bikes too much, which in effect means they are being abused by not being used as they were designed ?
I found the hard to start bikes have some underlying issue, badly set up or blocked carbs, duff plugs or coils, crank seals on the way out or some sort of air leak. The fuel tap leaking, crank case or lower pipe filling with fuel is also a potential problem. TBH a flat battery I never felt was an issue. However if, on a regular basis, I run the motor until the pipes are hot then the bad starting tends to go away.
Phil's bang on: if it doesn't start well occasionally, try starting it more frequently. If it never starts well, find and fix the problem. (-P)
Speaking of starting follies had one last weekend at the mx track. Looking like a couple of squids. It was pretty cold in the early morning 28 degrees.
Friends 21 beta 125 re wouldn't start he's kicking away. Usually it's just a couple I try nothing. We changed the plug even tried pushing it nothing.
My friend is about to give up until I opened the gas cap. Opps vapor locked the vent baffle beta used fell out of the cap.
Quote from: jools on February 08, 2022, 02:58:05 AM
One thing to consider here is that with the PV's open at start up you have less compression. I would therefore expect the starting fuel circuit to be jetted for this condition on a standard CDI out of the box.
Interesting point. Starting circuits on mine and I assume Gav's are standard, hence why the standard CDI settings for 900 rpm work well for us.
Quote from: mellorp on February 08, 2022, 10:49:08 AM
They got fresh fuel every couple of days. And it started 1st or 2nd kick.
I think this is a key point.
Quote from: Warwick on February 08, 2022, 04:26:29 PM
Phil's bang on: if it doesn't start well occasionally, try starting it more frequently. If it never starts well, find and fix the problem. (-P)
Totally agreed!
One last thing.... My kickstart speed and strength were mush better when I was in my teens, but the kickstarts on the 3XV don't allow you to get your foot on it correctly. It's more like a heel start ;D
Looking at some of your RS PV settings Reverend, it seems you use 100% open at start up. Did I read the data correctly? My start-up jetting is as it was stock, Jools. Good catch, though.
That question aside, believe your absolutely right about running the bike more often (at least in my case), Rev. I've explained past winters, but as a track bike i only tend to fire up before an upcoming meeting...checking things such as jetting. I tend to fiddle around with minutia on the mechanical side and ignore the need to run it up to temp more often.
Also, You and others seem to have several classic 2T's to choose from, Phil. I've got one. "Mollycoddle" is a good word, but while my "only child" has been spoiled by over-attention, would you do any less in my position?
Yes, you made a strong point: "When younger, I owned five Suzuki 2T street bikes (and one motocrosser) between 1971 and 1976. Except for the MXer, none were pampered beyond normal wear items and ridden constantly. A GT750 was primary transportation for an entire year. None of them ever had a problem and started easily." To be fair, all the gasoline back then was ethanol free. My bikes were all oil injected...even the motocrosser.
I once asked a 1%er with a very expensive custom-chopper, "If he was a afraid to ride such an expensive bike?" His answer was, "If you were married to a super-model, would you be afraid to have sex with her?" Not a perfect analogy, but it seems to apply here.
"If you got 'em. Ride 'em."
Thanks to all for their advice on this subject. Apologies to Rich for invading his thread.
Steve
No problem Steve. This post is a journey and this is the stage I'm at so it's all really helpful information (-P)
Update - Little progress bar the 3rd and last heat cycle. Before I take it to the MoT there's a list I need to get through, so here it is ...
1. Make sure the PV closed value on the Zeel is not "over closing" and stressing the linkage arm (I suspect this is why it fell off when it was out on the road last). It's set to 185 but I think that's too much. I can use the PV Open / Close commands in the Zeel software to test this out by marking the extent of the closed position and taking the value up so it reaches this but at the highest PV value.
2. Tune the idle and air screws for each side. Useful tips from here on the procedure, which is warm it up then remove and ground a plug and fiddle with one side, switch sides and do the same, then both back in and bring the idle down to 1250 or so.
3. Fairings back on :o
4. MoT - cakewalk
5. Running in on the road.
Parts 1 & 2 are done.
In the first part I was concerned the Zeel was over-closing the PVs and putting stress on the linkage bar fittings. PV position for open and close is controlled in the Zeel software. Open is easy. If a 4mm drill bit fits in the hole in the cylinder through the PV bracket squarely then you have not only found the right value for the Zeel but also if you do this on both sides you can be assured your linkage is synchronised. (I did double check before putting the pipes on they were but just as a double double check).
Closed is harder. How closed is closed? I made up this "rig" and tested various values. the point being, if you lower the value and the needle doesn't pass its highest point then the value is too low. I aimed for the maximum deflection then -2 on the value. All testing done and the out of the box values of 525 open and 185 closed are spot on. But at least now I know.
Part 2 I decided not to run each pot independently as these have new rings. I'm sure it would have been ok but I just satisfied myself with balancing the idle screws. This was getting it ticking over off choke and tweak the screws one way then another until a) even pulses were felt out of each pipe and b) a tweak and a blip on either side resulted in raised revs. I used to have the left pipe not smoking at idle and all that was down to one idle screw too far out, so I'm basically balanced now. Idle and tuning to come with the dyno.
Leaving it overnight over a puppy pad to see if there's any leaks of the vitals then it's steps 3 & 4. Once it has an MoT then a but of running in and trip to Box Hill on the 8th of May are all looking good before the finale of this post - the dyno.
Mot is passed and running on the road is good so far. I'm up two jet sizes on both sides and not going over 6k for now.
However, two steps forward and one back... I have an oil leak from behind the dry clutch. Not massive but needs fixing if I'm to save my new clutch plates.
Spoken to Gav and we think it's likely to be the large oil seal not seated correctly (I did change it in the build for a new one).
Oil out, clutch off (I hate doing up that that big torque boss) and will see what's going on.
Great admiration coming from me/USA. You're working each issue and pressing on.
I really hope you don't have to dive deep into fix that seal. But, if that happens I speak for many in cheering you onward.
Steve
When i redid my main seal behind the dry clutch, i thought it was seated.
I got paranoid it wasnt so very lightly worked round with a wooden dowl and a small pin hammer and very lightly tapped it, and sure enough it travelled a further 1/2mm, only then did i feel it " touch down" , it hasnt leaked since.
This can get expensive when that seal leaks as it contaminates the plates as Rich said.Although could they be cleaned in something or would they be toast?
Grabbed a bit of time today and took the clutch cover off and the plates out. Looks dry in there so I think the plates are good and hopefully that's a sign it's more likely to be the outer clutch seal. I sure hope it's just that seal - I'm almost too scared to look. I wiped the metal plates with clean paper towels and there was no residue. Trying to see the positives!
Lots of g/box oil all over the back of the engine, which of course would never have been apparent just running it through heat cycles. Hopefully I can get a good look this weekend and see what's what but it sounds exactly the same as Gav's bike.
Must remember to drain the g/box oil before I take the clutch basket out....
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on April 23, 2022, 12:28:32 PM
Oil out, clutch off (I hate doing up that that big torque boss) and will see what's going on.
Get yourself one of these and a pack of adaptors for a hex drive and 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" sockets. I use an old wood chisel for lifting the tab washers and mole/vice grips for bending them into the lock position
https://www.screwfix.com/p/dewalt-dcf899n-xj-18v-li-ion-xr-brushless-cordless-impact-wrench-bare/3399J?tc=BA2&ds_kid=92700055256569560&ds_rl=1244066&gclid=CjwKCAjwjZmTBhB4EiwAynRmD1reJkb6RITyMUPv_Ll4kqoto7EF0-lWZHZXcICtnt7i0BbGJb15kRoC0wMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Quote from: mellorp on April 25, 2022, 08:04:25 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on April 23, 2022, 12:28:32 PM
Oil out, clutch off (I hate doing up that that big torque boss) and will see what's going on.
Get yourself one of these and a pack of adaptors for a hex drive and 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" sockets. I use an old wood chisel for lifting the tab washers and mole/vice grips for bending them into the lock position
https://www.screwfix.com/p/dewalt-dcf899n-xj-18v-li-ion-xr-brushless-cordless-impact-wrench-bare/3399J?tc=BA2&ds_kid=92700055256569560&ds_rl=1244066&gclid=CjwKCAjwjZmTBhB4EiwAynRmD1reJkb6RITyMUPv_Ll4kqoto7EF0-lWZHZXcICtnt7i0BbGJb15kRoC0wMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Absolutely! I have an impact driver for spooling off the boss and it was so easy compared with the first time I did it balancing clutch holder and long lever socket!
It would be great if there were a driver that you could dial in a specific torque setting, but I expect that'd be hundreds if they even exist!
I was told that Milwaukee Tools (USA) has a an impact driver that can be preset to "ratchet-out" at specific torque value. This info came from a place I've used forever that specializes in nuts, bolts, taps, dies, industrial hand tools, etc.
If this tool exists, you can have it shipped to me and I'd be glad to send it to you as "a friend gift".
Steve
Edit: Sorry, Rich I could only find impact drivers that can be adjusted to gross setting, not exacting torque values. Next time I'm at that Fastener Company I'll ask again with more specificity.
Patience is where we realise that to rush something is to compromise it to its own destruction. Maturity is to realise that the most effective way to stop the destruction is by beginning to develop patience. And the first place that we need to do that is with ourselves....
Don't be in such a rush to reach a goal, that you reach the goal before you are ready. Sometimes, we learn such valuable lessons along the way. Sometimes, we learn more about ourselves and discover that we actually want something different. Put your heart into what you do, but don't rush. Good things take time....
Quote from: Steveog on April 26, 2022, 04:54:51 PM
I was told that Milwaukee Tools (USA) has a an impact driver that can be preset to "ratchet-out" at specific torque value. This info came from a place I've used forever that specializes in nuts, bolts, taps, dies, industrial hand tools, etc.
If this tool exists, you can have it shipped to me and I'd be glad to send it to you as "a friend gift".
Steve
Edit: Sorry, Rich I could only find impact drivers that can be adjusted to gross setting, not exacting torque values. Next time I'm at that Fastener Company I'll ask again with more specificity.
Thanks Steve - it would be super handy but on reflection I think the measurement of torque in an impact action would be a tricky thing. Would be interesting to know if there was a thing!
Quote from: jamietzr250r on April 26, 2022, 10:55:14 PM
Patience is where we realise that to rush something is to compromise it to its own destruction. Maturity is to realise that the most effective way to stop the destruction is by beginning to develop patience. And the first place that we need to do that is with ourselves....
Don't be in such a rush to reach a goal, that you reach the goal before you are ready. Sometimes, we learn such valuable lessons along the way. Sometimes, we learn more about ourselves and discover that we actually want something different. Put your heart into what you do, but don't rush. Good things take time....
So true. You know what, this was
all my fault rushing on "just a seal" which seemed insignificant in the scheme of everything else that I've done. Fine words Jamie.
Have you fixed it yet Rich? Do you have the main seal?
Got some spanner timer (or rather impact driver time :P)
Our suspicions are correct, it was the big seal behind the dry clutch. I had changed this while the cover was off the bike and remember it being "tricky". Basically I messed this up. Somehow.
My thoughts are I should have fitted the seal after installing the cover, with it one the bike, so both sides of the seal were supported.
Question to the wise - Is this seal is toast now and in need of replacing or does it just need seating properly????
I presume it would wise to remove it clean everything up, then re seat it, i suppose the qustion is can you press it out without damaging it? Maybe as its so oily this could be achieved? Remember, i have a stash of this seal, so could lend you one and you replace it when yours turns up?
Quote from: bulldogboy on May 01, 2022, 12:54:55 PM
I presume it would wise to remove it clean everything up, then re seat it, i suppose the qustion is can you press it out without damaging it? Maybe as its so oily this could be achieved? Remember, i have a stash of this seal, so could lend you one and you replace it when yours turns up?
I'm not sure what path to take. Either tap it in as you managed or take the cover off, remove the seal and fit a new one (thanks for the offer btw!) when the cover is back on the bike.
Odd thing is when I rode it.... slipping the clutch in 1st, the bike made a gear like graunching noise and the clutch was instantly fully engaged. Stalled it a couple of times but something wasn't right. I could pull away by minimising the slipping. It did this a lot on the way back from the mot and I'm wondering if that's due to this oil or maybe I should take the box out and examine that.
Considering the oil hadnt migrated throughout the clutch and contamination was minimal would it be that? When mine was fully contaminated, the only symptom was slipping.Hate to say it but it sounds like you may have a second issue? ?:-|
Quote from: bulldogboy on May 01, 2022, 03:30:00 PM
Considering the oil hadnt migrated throughout the clutch and contamination was minimal would it be that? When mine was fully contaminated, the only symptom was slipping.Hate to say it but it sounds like you may have a second issue? ?:-|
It feels like the chain jumping the sprockets. I know the chain is fubar and the rear sprocket also but I did adjust it before the MoT. Anyway, the really good news is after I stalled it at the lights, it fired up first kick still in gear with the clutch in ;) That would have been a 20 kick marathon before to start it hot. I used to loathe petrol stations.
Anyway, tap it in or rip it out? Ideas gents? What's the best way to install it, on or off the bike?
I've always put the seal in the case myself, and then mounted the case, but I don't think there's a locating lip on the outside of the seal IIRC, so you could maybe replace it in situ like you would a gear change shaft seal etc.? Can't say for certain as I've never done it that way. Check that the drum bit that spins in the seal has no pits or corrosion and grease it all well when installing while keeping things square of course.
Personally I would replace the seal rather than try to reuse the one that's leaked unless I was in a real bind and a replacement wasn't available.
Quote from: Warwick on May 01, 2022, 05:57:04 PM
I've always put the seal in the case myself, and then mounted the case, but I don't think there's a locating lip on the outside of the seal IIRC, so you could maybe replace it in situ like you would a gear change shaft seal etc.? Can't say for certain as I've never done it that way. Check that the drum bit that spins in the seal has no pits or corrosion and grease it all well when installing while keeping things square of course.
Personally I would replace the seal rather than try to reuse the one that's leaked unless I was in a real bind and a replacement wasn't available.
Two things here. Yes, there's not locating lip, so tapping it back to seat isn't an option. Second, why risk an x thousand pound rebuild on a £20 seal? Yep, replace it.
So here's what I found. The inner lip was flipped part way round, in two places. So I had failed to locate properly. With an old seal that probably wouldn't have been an issue, but a new one was too tight, and I messed it up.
So..... took the seal out with the case one the bike and fitted a new one (Thanks Gav - I'll order yours back up now). See pics of before and after. I found fitting the seal with the case installed quite easy as you're only dealing with the seal, rather than the case and seal. Also the kickstart can be used to rotate everything just to aid that seating.
I'm happy with this. Next up will be clutch reinstall and test ride for leaks. Bit of a diversion from the whole point of this thread, which is derestricting the RS, but I guess when you open a can, you get worms.
Quote from: Steveog on February 06, 2022, 07:05:24 PM
Hi Gavin. I DID reset my Zeel PV's first setting to (Fully Closed) this past summer. It had been set on 100% (from the first to the next trigger point where is then went back to (0) until 7K. I'll reset the PV's to its former spec.
Update
It was a sunny 25C here today. 40% Humidity.
After spending much of the winter stripping the front and rear cages, fabbing up a Tach mount, new battery box and home for the Zeel it was time for a first ride of the year.
I reset the Zeel to tell the PV's to be 100% open at its first trigger point. (Mixed blend of two month old leaded and unleaded fuel with A747, 30:1) First kick on choke got it to cough. Second kick and she was running. Settled into idle nicely. Accepted throttle with enthusiasm. Turned choke off and things got better, if a bit smoky. That was yesterday.
Just rode it, today. Very happy. Track day next Saturday.
Thanks again to all for their contributions and again to Rich for using his thread to solve my self-inflicted starting issue.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on May 14, 2022, 10:34:53 PM
Quote from: Steveog on February 06, 2022, 07:05:24 PM
Hi Gavin. I DID reset my Zeel PV's first setting to (Fully Closed) this past summer. It had been set on 100% (from the first to the next trigger point where is then went back to (0) until 7K. I'll reset the PV's to its former spec.
Update
It was a sunny 25C here today. 40% Humidity.
After spending much of the winter stripping the front and rear cages, fabbing up a Tach mount, new battery box and home for the Zeel it was time for a first ride of the year.
I reset the Zeel to tell the PV's to be 100% open at its first trigger point. (Mixed blend of two month old leaded and unleaded fuel with A747, 30:1) First kick on choke got it to cough. Second kick and she was running. Settled into idle nicely. Accepted throttle with enthusiasm. Turned choke off and things got better, if a bit smoky. That was yesterday.
Just rode it, today. Very happy. Track day next Saturday.
Thanks again to all for their contributions and again to Rich for using his thread to solve my self-inflicted starting issue.
Steve
Yep I see no reason why a Zeel should be harder to start. Logically thinking it should be easier than standard!
I'm also toying with the idea of bringing the advance back from 20 some degrees to 15-17 for the sub 900 rpm first stage, then getting on with the curve as normal. As these things idle at 1250-1500 then anything in the sub 900 rpm stages are starting only.
If your resetting the Zeel's ignition advance helps, Rich. Please let us know.
Two kicks is good, but we're all looking for "better", Yes?
Thanks.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on May 16, 2022, 05:31:50 PM
If your resetting the Zeel's ignition advance helps, Rich. Please let us know.
Two kicks is good, but we're all looking for "better", Yes?
Thanks.
Steve
I got the idea of going open at start from the old Norton plungers that reduced compression for kick starting - married with the fact the OEM CDI does this (ask - why?)
Always asking questions here!
I did notice a slow kick on the 3xv can kick back if you get it right in the spot, so thinking a more retarded spark at kicking speed would put the spark in the right place at the right time
for the RZ350 YPVS, the Zeel box uses the front lobe of the fly wheel to fire the engine at idle and the rear lobe above idle (don't know exactly but over 2k rpm).
Otherwise, the engine can start "backward" if the kick energy is not enough => engine turning to slowly..
I'll have a play with that <900 rpm advance, thanks for the thoughts.
Next up though is getting on with the job.
Hopefully this'll work out ok, I have all day.
Making progress.
Using a flat file across both fingers got most of the way, but the frontside of the fingers are less worn than the backside, so had to stop that to avoid taking too much off. Now onto 120 grit to bring the backside groves down. I'm not looking for a mirror finish, nor take the groves out 100% as I think that'd take too much material off.
And all I did today was build 3 wooden planters and finish my lid to my new generator......
(Lid to a gen you say..., It's a boxed lid that sits on my gen so it doesn't look like a gen when I'm at work not using it therefore less nickable...and keeps it dry in the rain)(it's also chained up when not used).
Quote from: jamietzr250r on May 22, 2022, 01:15:34 AM
And all I did today was build 3 wooden planters and finish my lid to my new generator......
(Lid to a gen you say..., It's a boxed lid that sits on my gen so it doesn't look like a gen when I'm at work not using it therefore less nickable...and keeps it dry in the rain)(it's also chained up when not used).
I could do with a genny box! Mine sits in the garage and I had to do an emergency service on it the other day (plug, air filter, clean the carb, oil top up) as the power went out here all day. I'm going to get some of that storage fuel you use for it as it's only used once in a blue moon.
In other news - the clutch is fixed and the bike is perfect..... apart from a small oil leak, which I think is from either the rear shock or the 2T tank. I'll have a look later.
Excellent....
I found where the small oil leak is coming from. Thankfully not the engine - yay.
2T tank and pipe is wet on the inside and dry on the outside so that's great news for the engine! BUT, it looks like the rear shock is totally shot. (see pic). Looks like a seal is blown. Luckily I have a replacement.
Final tool for changing the shock. Have to dangle the bike from the ceiling ;)
Aha. Now I know why I just had an RSJ mounted in the garage (-P) :))
It's much easier to hang up a TZR than it is to do the same with a Thundercat. I've been renovating a friend's bike and man-alive was it heavy suspending it to take the forks out.
How does the tool work Rich?
I ran out of time at the weekend to fit this with having to fit a security light and swap out old sprinklers for new (old silicone gun bottles make excellent for boring wider holes in lawns!), so I'll post some pics next weekend. The concept is to put a hole through a wooden joist vertically and have this bolt through it, using a ratchet strap over the rear subframe to suspend the bike. I'll check with Chippy on the weight limits but it's not a fat cat, it's a featherweight 2T so should be fine for supporting 1/2 it's weight.
I've strung up my 3XV. Two straps on the forks to stop it falling over and the rear is in the air. It's all squared up now, unlike the pic, haha. :o
Very helpful for the up and coming rear sprocket swap, but this is really for replacing the leaking shock. I thought this was going to be "two bolts and job done", but looking at the shock and the hole in the swing arm it *appears* the shock has to be dropped in from the top? ?:-|
Anyone else done this, as a replacement rather than a rebuild? What's the procedure? (Yep taking the pipes off is a given). Do I just jack the back up higher to get clearance or can this come out from underneath?
Any help lads?
Yes, has to come out the top. A few tips:
You might find it easier to crack the shock and linkage nuts with the wheels on the ground or up on a paddock stand, rather than dangling? I just use an Abba stand for that kind of thing these days.
Removing the oil tank (or at least moving it out the way) will make the job much easier.
Disconnecting the shock from the upper mount for removal will make things much easier (ditto for refitting).
Check, clean and service the linkage while your down there.
It's not an especially difficult job. Just take your time. (-P)
Thanks Warwick!
I deliberately didn't mention "remove the swing arm" in my post as that's a horror situation given its never been off before, so glad to hear the oil tank should give me access.
I did crack the top nut when on the ground but haven't done that on the lower as I need to take off the pipes to access. I can get access with a ring spanner but I'm thinking about getting the torque wrench on it for doing it back up. It's going to take a while and I'm disappointed to be dealing with this when I'd rather be running in the new rings and looking forward to a dyno run.
Quote from: Warwick on June 18, 2022, 08:30:23 PM
It's not an especially difficult job.
Yes, I'm a spanner coward, but your advice has always been spot on and helps the confidence!
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on June 18, 2022, 11:38:05 PM
Thanks Warwick!
I deliberately didn't mention "remove the swing arm" in my post as that's a horror situation given its never been off before,
Weeeelllll, to be honest I'd always check out the swinger bearings while the shock was out in any case. Bit of a false (time) economy not to really. C:-)
If you really don't want to pop the arm out to check them properly, then at least check the swinger's movement with the wheel out. If it is anything other than smooth as butter through it's full movement, with no lateral play, then it'd be worth taking it out for proper cleaning, greasing and assessment of the bearings, sleeve and shaft etc. Personally, even if it all felt good, I'd draw the shaft out and regrease everything simply as a servicing/preventative measure to extend the life of the current parts. You could even upgrade to SP type end cap thrust bearings while you are in there for just a few quid 8). A no brainer for me. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on June 19, 2022, 10:45:58 AM
If you really don't want to pop the arm out to check them properly, then at least check the swinger's movement with the wheel out. If it is anything other than smooth as butter through it's full movement, with no lateral play, then it'd be worth taking it out for proper cleaning, greasing and assessment of the bearings, sleeve and shaft etc. Personally, even if it all felt good, I'd draw the shaft out and regrease everything simply as a servicing/preventative measure to extend the life of the current parts. You could even upgrade to SP type end cap thrust bearings while you are in there for just a few quid 8). A no brainer for me. (-P)
I'll have a good long read of others posts and get back to you on that ::) (-P)
Thanks though - it all makes sense to get everything done at the same time.
The first half dozen pages of Steve's Project Phoenix thread will be helpful, Rich: http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5973.0 Hopefully yours will not need anything like the attention Steve's did, but there's all the info re: replacement sleeves and bearing types/codes etc. in there if you do need them. (-P)
Damn, think I missed the upgrade option 4 years ago when I dropped mine out. Oh well, there's bound to be a next time ::)
Quote from: Warwick on June 19, 2022, 01:45:04 PM
The first half dozen pages of Steve's Project Phoenix thread will be helpful, Rich: http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=5973.0
Glad some of my adventures might help others, Warwick. Rich has been very helpful to me in the past, too.
Steve
Thanks all :)
I'll try withdrawing the main spindle and see where I go from there. (-P)
Rear sprocket definitely needed changing ;D
The source of the oil leak
Good news is the swing arm spindle tapped out easy. Not so encouraging is what the swing arm looks like.
Couple of questions
The RHS cap end thing rotates, the chain side one doesn't. It also looks like it has a chunk out of it. What should be expected? What have I got here and what's recommended?
Looks like the chain guide is toast. Recommend retail route is the US eBay replacement?
Yes mate, hotfoot moto, got em on both my bikes, has it chewed up your swingarm!?
What are the cush drive rubbers like?
Quote from: bulldogboy on June 25, 2022, 07:23:25 PM
Yes mate, hotfoot moto, got em on both my bikes, has it chewed up your swingarm!?
What are the cush drive rubbers like?
Thanks Gav - that's ordered so a long wait on that item (about a month! :o )
Cush drive rubbers look ok. I think I'm gonna have to get into the swing arm bearings and stuff. I feel like I have learned enough with this bike, but it clearly doesn't think so ?:-|
Quote from: Warwick on June 19, 2022, 10:45:58 AM
You could even upgrade to SP type end cap thrust bearings while you are in there for just a few quid 8). A no brainer for me. (-P)
These guys instead of the 4mm shims Warwick? https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p9630/AXK2542-Needle-Roller-Cage-with-2-AS2542-Washers-25x42x4mm/product_info.html (https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p9630/AXK2542-Needle-Roller-Cage-with-2-AS2542-Washers-25x42x4mm/product_info.html)
Has the chain chewed up yr swingarm? Ive got a used oem slider if you want to get up and running, they just push on, you only have to take the rearsets off and you can fit the new one later.
Obviously ill have to charge you for any wear. ;D
Quote from: bulldogboy on June 25, 2022, 07:55:41 PM
Has the chain chewed up yr swingarm? Ive got a used oem slider if you want to get up and running, they just push on, you only have to take the rearsets off and you can fit the new one later.
Obviously ill have to charge you for any wear. ;D
TBH I need to clean all this up, there's so little so see when it's all covered in crud!
Thanks Gav - I'll let you know (-P) ;D
Think I can relate to your swinging arm engraving Rich, this was mine. I also got a replacement guide from HotFoot Moto (-P)
Thanks Ron (-P)
I had quite the opposite experience of Steve, not only did the spindle tap out no issue but the inner bush was withdrawn using no tools at all.
Bush looks good, linkage bearings all smooth, main arm bearings could be slicker but everything dawbed in copper grease so I guess this had some TLC in the past.
Got some "engraving" too but I think a new cap end should be needed as there's a big chunk out of the old one.
JB weld?
Can it be welded and ground back? Might as well paint it while your at it Rich :P
Quote from: jamietzr250r on June 25, 2022, 11:50:41 PM
JB weld?
Quote from: bulldogboy on June 26, 2022, 01:58:10 AM
Can it be welded and ground back? Might as well paint it while your at it Rich :P
Bit of JB and paint. (-P)
I have a month to go with the lead time of the chain slider so it's helping me keep patient and take things one bolt at a time. I have a spare rear disc from Dan to compare against the one on there, new rear pads to fit, new rear sprocket, oh and the pads mean will be having "fun" with the pistons on the calliper.
Jb weld uggg no!! (Face palm) that won't offer real support.
Check it for cracks and have it fixed properly by having it welded up.
Make sure it's somebody with experience doing it. So that way they don't mess up the bearing area.
Not too uncommon of a fix it dirt bike world.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on June 26, 2022, 03:24:41 PM
Jb weld uggg no!! (Face palm) that won't offer real support.
Check it for cracks and have it fixed properly by having it welded up.
Make sure it's somebody with experience doing it. So that way they don't mess up the bearing area.
Not too uncommon of a fix it dirt bike world.
Oh fair point. I was just thinking cosmetically, but you're right - this is a prime stress area now with all those sharp angles!
Or just buy another swingarm in good nick?
Quote from: bulldogboy on June 26, 2022, 06:56:54 PM
Or just buy another swingarm in good nick?
The advice from the forum thus far has been to call "Andy at Webbs" - sooner or later it'll be call "Gav from Berkshire" ;D Do you have one? Just kidding mate ;)
Mine will be fine unless I take a tumble, then that area would be a prime failure point. I'll look at the welding options and see what hole that makes.
I'll defo be calling Andy tomorrow as Fowlers want twenty quid for that end cap. £25 if you buy it from them off eBay :o
JB weld gets my vote. It'll be absolutely fine.
Dan
Disagreeing with a race engineer is a bit arrogant. Dan is a "Top Gun". But, I support welding and clean-up, Rich.
My reasons are long term. JB Epoxy is current holding together several parts on my 3xv, but they are not extreme load-bearing areas on the bike.
That said, the spot of damage you're dealing with, Rich is supported by the bearings and swinger pivot shaft.
Steve
PS - I've been at the track all weekend. Will get you an answer to your PM, tomorrow.
Just my ten bob but I'd be cautious about welding it. When originally made it'd have been done in a jig and then tack welded, then welds would be done in a sequence to minimise the heat pulling it out of shape. I suspect that the pivot shaft bearing points would then be reamed to ensure they're aligned.
To my mind there's still heaps of material left and that is a very strongly braced area, so I'd go with the JB weld myself.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on June 25, 2022, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: Warwick on June 19, 2022, 10:45:58 AM
You could even upgrade to SP type end cap thrust bearings while you are in there for just a few quid 8). A no brainer for me. (-P)
These guys instead of the 4mm shims Warwick? https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p9630/AXK2542-Needle-Roller-Cage-with-2-AS2542-Washers-25x42x4mm/product_info.html (https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p9630/AXK2542-Needle-Roller-Cage-with-2-AS2542-Washers-25x42x4mm/product_info.html)
Yes, those will do the job. (-P)
JB or other similar chemical metal stuff should be fine for the gouges.
Clean the poor thing occasionally, maybe? C:-) ;D
Nothing wrong with welding it not an uncommon fix on vintage dirt bikes. I've seen worse fixed before.
I have a nice spare R swingarm but it probably cost a small fortune to ship now.
Thanks guys. I have some thinking to do. I'll see what a first hand inspection recommends.
Oh and I have to wash it all first C:-) (-P)
I think it best to replace the main swing arm bearings. They do feel a little gravelly and no sense going this far and skipping a step.
Probably two months away from a dyno if all goes well.
New swingarm bearings on order. Not the £54 to turn up in a Yamaha packet, but £12 from the same manufacturer from Simply Bearings. I'll take that. I just throw the £42 packet in the bin anyhow.
Thanks Steve for the tips on bearing removal
Well done, Rich.
Many seals and bearings are over the counter at a good supply vendor.
Glad removing the old bearings didn't require blasting.
Steve
Well the idea of the bearing puller was great. The practice less so.
First I started with the puller and it didn't budge. Overnight soaking and lots of heat all succeeded only in breaking up the internal cage. Pulled the cage and rollers out then trying the puller on the outer edge just ripped that off. Trying on the inner edge, no movement. Same both sides.
What's next?
Carefully cut the bearing race and with some needle nose pliers. Work up the edge and hopefully it will come loose.
I just tap them out from the other side with a hammer and a long round drift. Locate the drift on the inner edge of the bearing and work round giving sharp but lightish taps. Should come out easily enugh once it moves a fraction. Heat on the outside of the arm in the bearing area will help.
Success (in the end) just kept hammering away with the blind bearing puller on the inner race and lots and lots of heat
Footnote
Quote from: Warwick on June 19, 2022, 10:45:58 AM
Clean the poor thing occasionally, maybe? C:-) ;D
Ooo, a curious midnight black with a tinge of blue. Interesting (-P)
Ok, with the bearings out (admittedly piece by piece) I can see the gouges haven't compromised the bearing surfaces. Looks like the "trick" for installing the new ones is a threaded rod. Sounds easy :o
Pop the bearings in the freezer overnight, organise your threaded rod (m8 is fine), washers and spcers set-up (suitable sized sockets are good). Warm up the side of the arm you are pulling the bearing into, lightly oil the inside of the arm and wind away. Keep things square and they'll pull in easy. It's a lot easier and a lot more satisfying than taking them out. Just remember to keep all the force on the outside of the bearing and all will be well. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on July 03, 2022, 09:40:05 PM
Pop the bearings in the freezer overnight, organise your threaded rod (m8 is fine), washers and spcers set-up (suitable sized sockets are good). Warm up the side of the arm you are pulling the bearing into, lightly oil the inside of the arm and wind away. Keep things square and they'll pull in easy. It's a lot easier and a lot more satisfying than taking them out. Just remember to keep all the force on the outside of the bearing and all will be well. (-P)
Thanks 8)
As Warwick says - much more satisfying a job! Left about 0.5mm shy of flush on the inside, just like I found them. Both sides in square and onto the next job (-P)
Well done, Rich. Are you going to use the (SP) needle bearing thrust washers?
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on July 16, 2022, 11:13:05 PM
Well done, Rich. Are you going to use the (SP) needle bearing thrust washers?
Steve
Yep, I have those installed in the end caps ready to go (-P)
Help!! ?:-|
I've been going through all the manuals and I can't for the life of me find any section about putting the rear sets back on to find out the torque setting. Which manual is this in? I definitely don't want to strip it but equally don't want it falling off while riding!!
That's the last bit of paperwork I need as I have all the settings and grease types written down.
There's a chart with general torque settings for different size bolts in the manual somewhere. I just nip them up with a normal ratchet (don't overdo it as the oe socket head bolts are not especially robust). A dab of medium strength threadlock will stop them coming undone in any case. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on July 17, 2022, 01:39:57 PM
There's a chart with general torque settings for different size bolts in the manual somewhere. I just nip them up with a normal ratchet (don't overdo it as the oe socket head bolts are not especially robust). A dab of medium strength threadlock will stop them coming undone in any case. (-P)
Yes I've seen that table. I'll figure it out from there and very good point about the thread lock (-P) thanks
Normally, at the beginning on any Yamaha manual (section 2) you'll found the torque settings with respect to bold size and pitch & location. Problem for 3XV is Japanese table :o
Really annoying the 3XV rear sprocket I got had 8mm holes. Drilling these out was relatively easy though. Just took a long time to set up each hole perfectly using a smaller bit. All good and fits perfectly now (-P) Got nice long spiral swarf by the end of this with a bit of practice :))
TZ250 rear sprockets are 8mm Rich. From what I read, they are often more readily available than 3XV sprockets which are of course 10mm, so drilling out TZ sprockets seems fairly common.
I've been translating bits of the 1991 3XVR/SP manual to help me with various bits, and I'm almost finished with a torque settings quick-reference, given that I'm close to starting to put mine back together. I'll post it when I'm finished.
I would imagine that your RS is no different for these bits. I've also snipped the general advice table from the manual.
Rear sprocket nuts - 6.0 kg/m - should be self locking nuts
Foot-peg hangers to frame - 3.0 kg/m - I'd use blue loctite
That's really helpful thanks (-P)
I've had a good day with progress. Put the new sprocket on (makes sense what you say about the TZ), built up the rear swingarm pivot with SP thrust bearings and spent about 2 hours taking the buildups off the main pivot. New chain guard fitted and just waiting in a shock before I can put the bike back on its wheels.
Regards the quick reference, that's a great idea. I spend a couple of hours trawling through the manuals to collate the right values. When I did the engine it was a job and so has this rear ended rebuild been! One thing I notice as that I have a 3XV8 and that means having to interpolate between "full manuals" and "additional manuals". The rear brake calliper torque changes between 3XV1/2 and 3XVA/B so it's not without challenge- good luck & thanks!
No worries. Good to hear you're making progress Rich. Some days I work away at things for hours and get nowhere, which can be quite demoralising. The good days give me a real lift.
The reference will be the torque setting pages and the parts list pages out of the 1991 R/SP book but most things should be fairly common (I hope). It'll be about 30 pages which is a lot better than combing through the three hundred and odd in the manual.
Good to see. I used my TZ250 4DP1 manual for a lot of things on my TZR 3MA1. Most of the manual goes page per page. I know the TZ is a race bike so I figure if it is good enouph for the TZ it is ok for the TZR. Some thing are better safety wired. Especially when you are concerned or it is an important part. MINE IS GOING 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: Mananon on July 17, 2022, 10:07:57 PM
No worries. Good to hear you're making progress Rich. Some days I work away at things for hours and get nowhere, which can be quite demoralising. The good days give me a real lift.
The reference will be the torque setting pages and the parts list pages out of the 1991 R/SP book but most things should be fairly common (I hope). It'll be about 30 pages which is a lot better than combing through the three hundred and odd in the manual.
This is great post! Thanks for your efforts on this. (-P) http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=7962.0 (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=7962.0)
Last (vital) part has arrived. (-P)
That must feel good Rich. Getting close now mate. (-P)
Yep I can see the finish line but still taking my time (-P)
I know the feeling Rich. I got my Keyster carb kit and the Chinese 'V' piece yesterday and there's almost nothing left to order that I know of. I just need a dry day this coming weekend to finish painting the frame then I can start putting everything back together. I want to get stuff right first time though so I'm not rushing things. (-P)
Have you tried fitting the chinesium v piece? What's fitment like?
Quote from: bulldogboy on July 19, 2022, 12:11:31 AM
Have you tried fitting the chinesium v piece? What's fitment like?
Different on every one I'm sure
Not tried it yet. With the bike stripped down to the frame I can't hag the side panels on, but I will try offering them up to the V piece this evening to see how it goes. I'll post an update and photos on my build thread once done.
Agree with Rich, believe they vary a lot.
Mine Chinese kit didn't have the best mounting points on the v-piece so I used the v-piece from the 3XV race fairing I had. It fitted a lot better from a mounting point perspective until the bike fell over and broke the mounting point, so needs a bit of tlc.
Looking forward to see how yours lines up :-\
Minor work today. Replace the reg/rec and fix the left rear indicator (which turned out to be dirty connections from soaking up too much 2T).
So successful I decided the draw a line under it this evening an celebrate the win (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 19, 2022, 09:21:27 PM
Minor work today. Replace the reg/rec and fix the left rear indicator (which turned out to be dirty connections from soaking up too much 2T).
So successful I decided the draw a line under it this evening an celebrate the win (-P)
Just a thought Rich.
When I replaced my reg/rec a while back it was suggested on the forum that it might not be earthing properly so as a precaution I ran an additional earth lead to the chassis. Don't know if it helped at all but it seemed to sort the issue I had by replacing the reg/rec.
Quote from: thump566 on July 20, 2022, 09:49:33 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 19, 2022, 09:21:27 PM
Minor work today. Replace the reg/rec and fix the left rear indicator (which turned out to be dirty connections from soaking up too much 2T).
So successful I decided the draw a line under it this evening an celebrate the win (-P)
Just a thought Rich.
When I replaced my reg/rec a while back it was suggested on the forum that it might not be earthing properly so as a precaution I ran an additional earth lead to the chassis. Don't know if it helped at all but it seemed to sort the issue I had by replacing the reg/rec.
Good tip, thanks. It'll be quite easy as the swingarm isn't in ;)
Hi Rich,
As you know, I'm nearly at the stage of putting my bike back together, including the back end, and I know you are too.
I've been working through translating the manual, a bit at a time, dependant on where I'm at.
I've only half done the chassis par of the 1991 R/SP manual, but I though some of this might be helpful, so rather than wait till I've done the full chapter, I thought I'd share what I've got so for.
Hope it helps mate.
Thanks for this. The real advantage here is you can browse and get a good overview before diving into the detail. I, like many others I suggest, just use the phone to Google translate a very specific few words so to be able to get the overview and scan is brilliant. It's also searchable which is a massive bonus (-P) great work.
I find the remembering which side the bolt has to be put in from, the best sequence and stuff like that helps a lot. Not missing a step, kind of thing. And the reminder to grease something first, not after, and the torque value reminders. It's not very detailed, but it is methodical. Less haste, more speed. Do it once, do it right.
Thanks for the translation. Sure helps. Did you replace the steering stem bearings also? Those were the only ones not replaced in my bike. They were perfectly fine. Good luck with the rest of the build
Yes, replaced mine. The top ones didn't look too bad but the bottom ones were pitted with rust. Getting the bottom one off was a bit tricky.
Stuck again :(
Those single use disc bolts are single use for a reason. Top marks to the Wally that rounded this off.
I have cut a slot on and tried to persuade it round with a hammer and chisel. Any other better ideas?
Also the disc is warped and I have a replacement so don't really care about damage to the disc.
In more positive news, the rear shock and swingarm are back on.
They are fitted with nasty threadlock, so lots of direct heat on the bolt with a directed blow torch before even tryng to crack them. For the rounded one, you could also try hammering in a slightly-too-big torx bit. Sometimes works. Main thing is plenty heat to break the threadlock bond however you go at them. Some penetrating oil from the back will help too. Those bolts can shear if too much axial force is applied thugh, so some caution is needed.
Blow torch. Get them super glowing hot. Let it cool. Do it again. Let it cool. Then use a lump hammer, a normal nail hammer won't work, I use a wood chisel (that is no longer good for wood). Once they start to move as Warwick says force a torx head bit into the knackered head and the bolts will whizz out
If they snap they are easy to drill and re-tap with some high quality drill bits and taps
Thanks guys (-P)
Used a lot of heat and releasing oil (from the back, didn't spot that!)
Lots of torx and spline bits to no avail. So I used a dremmel and made it into a 15mm bolt. Spun it off with the impact driver. Job done it'll be a roller today
Creative solution, Rich.
Adding your technique to Warwick and Reverend Phil's advice should go into the "How to Fix Your 3xv: DIY" handbook.
Steve
New (secondhand) disc fitted and the last thing done was to revive the Cush drive rubbers. 1 Hour in an 80C bath and they're a good tight fit. A couple fell out beforehand and I'd recommend olive oil for any rubber TZR parts like this and inlet rubbers etc.
Ultrasonic cleaner was good as a heat source to save being caught with the kitchen pans and no I didn't switch on the US!!!
It's now a rolling chassis (-P)
Need to fit the new chain, refit the right hand pipe and try to budge a stubborn rear disc piston for the new pads. Then it's suspension setup and test ride O0
Good stuff, Rich. You've replaced the front sprocket too, yes? No point spoiling the ship for a ha'peth o' tar (that one's especially for Steve ;D) (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on July 23, 2022, 09:01:58 PM
Good stuff, Rich. You've replaced the front sprocket too, yes? No point spoiling the ship for a ha'peth o' tar (that one's especially for Steve ;D) (-P)
Thanks! Absolutely- front sprocket was done a while ago and both were buggered, just like the chain. To the bitter end ;)
Quote from: Steveog on July 23, 2022, 06:18:38 PM
Creative solution, Rich.
Adding your technique to Warwick and Reverend Phil's advice should go into the "How to Fix Your 3xv: DIY" handbook.
Steve
I'd put it in the "and if all else fails" category (-P) :)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 23, 2022, 09:18:27 PM
Quote from: Warwick on July 23, 2022, 09:01:58 PM
Good stuff, Rich. You've replaced the front sprocket too, yes? No point spoiling the ship for a ha'peth o' tar (that one's especially for Steve ;D) (-P)
Thanks! Absolutely- front sprocket was done a while ago and both were buggered, just like the chain. To the bitter end ;)
If you mean a while ago as in you've already done some mileage on it with the old, worn chain and rear sprocket, it'd be well worth changing the front again so that the new chain and
both sprockets can all wear as a set. A worn sprocket (even quite slightly) will wear the new chain and new rear sprocket much faster, and just generally not feel as smooth in use.
Same deal with the rear caliper really. If you've a sticky piston, it's worth servicing the caliper properly (that ha'peth o' tar again). If a piston was sticking at all that might well explain the warped disc?
That's a bugger Rich. I've rounded out a couple of hex heads myself and have learned that I need to be really sure that the Allen bit is all the way into the socket.
I have a very large straight screwdriver bit for my impact driver, maybe 12mm across our more, so I'd be grinding a slot the full width of the head. The wider the slot and the wider the bit the more torque you can apply.
I'd then do some heat cycles, heating the hub (and hopefully not damaging the paint) while applying ice to the hex head. Hopefully the heat differential will cause and bond to fracture and then the penetrating oil will get in deeper.
When I took my disc off the bolts had been heavily loctited.
I'd give it a final heat and ice before going at it with the impact driver.
You might only get one good go at removal so I'd say you should do everything you can to improve your chances before going for it.
If you need replacement disc bolts, Yambits do them.
Good luck mate. 👍
Quote from: Warwick on July 23, 2022, 09:47:14 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 23, 2022, 09:18:27 PM
Quote from: Warwick on July 23, 2022, 09:01:58 PM
Good stuff, Rich. You've replaced the front sprocket too, yes? No point spoiling the ship for a ha'peth o' tar (that one's especially for Steve ;D) (-P)
Thanks! Absolutely- front sprocket was done a while ago and both were buggered, just like the chain. To the bitter end ;)
If you mean a while ago as in you've already done some mileage on it with the old, worn chain and rear sprocket, it'd be well worth changing the front again so that the new chain and both sprockets can all wear as a set. A worn sprocket (even quite slightly) will wear the new chain and new rear sprocket much faster, and just generally not feel as smooth in use.
Same deal with the rear caliper really. If you've a sticky piston, it's worth servicing the caliper properly (that ha'peth o' tar again). If a piston was sticking at all that might well explain the warped disc?
I've probably only done a 100 light km on the new sprocket but as you say, why not do new, it's only a few quid in the scheme of things and I geared it not anticipating the SP-esque upgrades. I may loose a tooth.
Wise words indeed about the rear calliper. One pad was worn 80% and the other 40%. That'd have caused the warping, spot on when I think about it.
Quote from: Mananon on July 23, 2022, 10:50:42 PM
That's a bugger Rich. I've rounded out a couple of hex heads myself and have learned that I need to be really sure that the Allen bit is all the way into the socket.
I have a very large straight screwdriver bit for my impact driver, maybe 12mm across our more, so I'd be grinding a slot the full width of the head. The wider the slot and the wider the bit the more torque you can apply.
I'd then do some heat cycles, heating the hub (and hopefully not damaging the paint) while applying ice to the hex head. Hopefully the heat differential will cause and bond to fracture and then the penetrating oil will get in deeper.
When I took my disc off the bolts had been heavily loctited.
I'd give it a final heat and ice before going at it with the impact driver.
You might only get one good go at removal so I'd say you should do everything you can to improve your chances before going for it.
If you need replacement disc bolts, Yambits do them.
Good luck mate. 👍
Yeah this one was rounded before I got to it and it was the sheer laziness of a previous owner. I had for the bolts locally (as the manual says "replace") and I was a bit gutted to have to see a rounded one.
Any case this will be my go to method for rounded Allen bolts (-P)
Regarding the rear brake was it Wayne Raineys mechanic that said "we could connect the brake pedal to an elastic band, he'd never know the difference"?
Great suggestions for the suggestions of removing the rounded off bolts, maybe there should be a useful DIY tips section containing words of wisdom?
Rich, was somewhat concerned where your update was leading to...
"A couple fell out beforehand and I'd recommend olive oil for any rubber..."
Thought you were heading for the NSFW sector :))
Quote from: thump566 on July 24, 2022, 09:38:47 AM
Thought you were heading for the NSFW sector :))
I did have to reword twice to avoid that :o
Rear calliper sorted.
Here's what I did for comment/reference. With the old pads out I used the brake pedal to push out the pistons a few mm. One side didn't move so I clamped the other side and got it budged. Old pads are great for spreading load and protecting from damage. Lots of cleaning, soft brush, wd40 etc to get the pistons visible for inspection. Then opened the nipple and put a tube on that (careful Ron!) - excess hydraulic pressure goes out that way, not backwards in the system. Used the spreader (£13 from Halfords) to get both pistons back flush using the old pads as destroyable faces. Then nipped up the bleed nipple, clamped one side and used the pedal to push the other side out. Swap and repeat, then pistons back in, copper grease, new pads in and using the spare rotor test both pistons came out equally. All this spent all the brake fluid so that's now effectively changed.
Chain / suspension setup next and after the pipe goes back on then run it the block to road test nothing falls off (including me)
Looks like a picture of success ;D but it's actually failure :'(
Rear shock isn't right. I think there's no gas/oil in it. On compression it's soft and on rebound it quacks like a duck like there's just a mist of oil in it. If you push down hard it hits its bump stop.
Stupid Question - Can a rear SP shock be re-gassed/filled while on the bike via that reservoir thingy?
Bloody hell Rich, two steps forward, one step back.
I had my 91 SP shock rebuilt but it wasn't cheap, though to be fair, NZ is an expensive place.
If rebuilt they really need to replace all the seals, gas bladder etc. Which is quite a bit of work. Shock technology has moved on since the 90's, so in hindsight I'd have gone for a YSS fully adjustable - which are considerably cheaper than a Nitron or even a second hand Ohlins.
I think there are 3 types for the 3XV, this one being the top notch unit.
https://japan.webike.net/products/23852885.html
Quote from: Mananon on July 24, 2022, 08:13:00 PM
Bloody hell Rich, two steps forward, one step back.
I had my 91 SP shock rebuilt but it wasn't cheap, though to be fair, NZ is an expensive place.
If rebuilt they really need to replace all the seals, gas bladder etc. Which is quite a bit of work. Shock technology has moved on since the 90's, so in hindsight I'd have gone for a YSS fully adjustable - which are considerably cheaper than a Nitron or even a second hand Ohlins.
I think there are 3 types for the 3XV, this one being the top notch unit.
https://japan.webike.net/products/23852885.html
That's a bit steep :)) the shock I have was rebuilt but that was 3 years ago and it's sat unworked on the shelf since. I'll bargain on a hundred quid for a service on this one. It's just such a pita that I have to take everything off again
It cost me NZ$700 (350 quid) just to get mine serviced but, as I say, NZ is a bloody expensive for both parts and labour. It took them over a month just to get the parts. The cheapest YSS shock is about that price if you include shipping. I don't doubt that there are more service options where you are Rick.
If the SP shock is a rubber bung type setup like the standard 3XV they'll actually need quite a long needle to pierce it. Too long to get it in while the shock is in the bike, unfortunately (bung is inside the 14mm hex bolt on the bottom).
Also, I would be worried about having pulled air from the reservoir/bladder into the shock while it was cavitating. I know from my own rebuild of a standard 3XV shock that it is all too easy to make this mistake if too forceful while bleeding the shock.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 24, 2022, 10:17:33 PM
the shock I have was rebuilt but that was 3 years ago and it's sat unworked on the shelf since. I'll bargain on a hundred quid for a service on this one. It's just such a pita that I have to take everything off again
Who rebuilt the shock for you before, Rich? Probs reasonable to send it back to them for a quick look over I'd think?
Quote from: Gooch on July 24, 2022, 10:49:44 PM
If the SP shock is a rubber bung type setup like the standard 3XV they'll actually need quite a long needle to pierce it. Too long to get it in while the shock is in the bike, unfortunately (bung is inside the 14mm hex bolt on the bottom).
Also, I would be worried about having pulled air from the reservoir/bladder into the shock. while it was cavitating. I know from my own rebuild of a standard 3XV shock that it is all too easy to make this mistake if too forceful while bleeding the shock.
Thanks. I'll have to strip it back down but luckily it's a roller - rolled it out the way so I can get my Ducati out now which I need for work Tuesday. Plus my old legs and knees need a weeks recovery!
It must have been your post where I learnt it's 150psi nitrogen? Do you know the quantity for the oil too? I suspect there's not many manuals for rebuilders to refer to with this shock in.
Quote from: Warwick on July 24, 2022, 11:54:41 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 24, 2022, 10:17:33 PM
the shock I have was rebuilt but that was 3 years ago and it's sat unworked on the shelf since. I'll bargain on a hundred quid for a service on this one. It's just such a pita that I have to take everything off again
Who rebuilt the shock for you before, Rich? Probs reasonable to send it back to them for a quick look over I'd think?
It's a long story. The guy on eBay pointed me to the owner of Allspeed (great chap, very helpful) who sold a complete bike from a racer pal who was going to enter the classic TT. I asked who'd rebuilt it and that was unclear "someone in the midlands".
I have a local guy that I can try who seems like a solid bloke from the Google reviews. I'll call him tomorrow and see what he says. If the shock had been rebuilt for a racer it's curious it was left at the SP standard 152mm preload - which is standard. As with all things 3XV, you just go deeper down the rabbit hole
Quote from: Mananon on July 24, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
It cost me NZ$700 (350 quid) just to get mine serviced but, as I say, NZ is a bloody expensive for both parts and labour. It took them over a month just to get the parts. The cheapest YSS shock is about that price if you include shipping. I don't doubt that there are more service options where you are Rick.
Well I should count myself lucky! I thought there was a lot of TZR interest in Oz which would drive down pricing but I know the friendly rivalry there!!
There might have been somewhere a bit cheaper in AU but the postage would have killed it. Postage is often cheaper from the UK than it is from Australia. A quid used to buy $3 but now it doesn't buy you two - so costs in relative terms are much higher, though so are earning I suppose.
I do recall the bloke who serviced mine saying that if it were just re-gassed and oiled, and didn't have all the seals and valve bits replaced then it'd maybe last a couple of years and would need doing again - so maybe that's what has happened with yours?
Quote from: Mananon on July 25, 2022, 12:43:07 AM
There might have been somewhere a bit cheaper in AU but the postage would have killed it. Postage is often cheaper from the UK than it is from Australia. A quid used to buy $3 but now it doesn't buy you two - so costs in relative terms are much higher, though so are earning I suppose.
I do recall the bloke who serviced mine saying that if it were just re-gassed and oiled, and didn't have all the seals and valve bits replaced then it'd maybe last a couple of years and would need doing again - so maybe that's what has happened with yours?
Given the preload hasn't changed from stock and considering it was supposed to be entered into the classic TT for a specific rider (assuming that's not a 17 year old Japanese rider) I'd say the extent of the rebuild/service could have been a bloke taking the shock in, not being able to get any information on it, cleaned it up real nice and charged £100 saying "it's all done"
150 psi comes from stevewr250's post which I think is the original OEM shock rebuild thread (http://pure2strokespirit.net/forums/index.php?topic=799.msg9747#msg9747). Regardless, when I opened mine up it had about 145 psi so I would say that number is right on the money.
Regarding oil, I don't think there is any specific quantity other than 'the amount that makes it full.' The build process involves filling the bladder up so that it takes up the maximum amount of space and then, once the damper assembly is bled, slowly releasing the air while inserting the rod and seal for the final time. Even though the lost volume of the reservoir should match the volume of the damper rod and seal head, usually there's a good bit of spillage in both of these steps. Naturally, once the seal head is in it is impossible to measure.
Also, the reason I think it's possible the shock pulled air from the bladder... 3XV shock doesn't actually carry a conventional bladder in the reservoir. What's actually in there is a sheet steel cup with a teflon slide ring and then a rubber o-ring to seal the gas, acting as a big piston. Something that occurred to me while bleeding was that it seemed perfectly possible to pull air past the o-ring if one was either too forceful on the damping rod or put too much pressure into the bladder.
Get in touch with maxton engineering who might be able to service your shock for you.
https://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/
Thanks for the ideas & info guys (-P)
I spoke to the chap who is literally a few roads down from me and he sounds like a straight bloke. I'll take the shock off this weekend and take it over to him next week at lunchtime. He said it won't take long to strip it down and he'll do that while I'm there and we can both look at what needs replacing. He says he has a few resources if it needs parts but won't commit over th phone (that's a good sign!). If it turns out to be impossible I'll speak to Maxton (thanks teezer).
Not looking forward to taking it off again but that's just me being lazy and the annoyance of having to undo much of what I thought was "done". I'm going to take my good condition R shock with me aswell and he'll test the pressure in that. If that one is good then a) I have an option if the SP shock is buggered b) If I can salvage the SP shock I'll be able to put the known good R shock in the for sale section.
I know in stevewr250's post (Thanks for that Gooch!) there's alternate part numbers listed but does anyone know what the part numbers are for seals & rings for a late SP rear shock? No worries if not.
You can fill the shock by removing the small screw on the end of the reservoir. There is a very small oring under the screw. The tools are below. There is a rubber bladder that you push the needle thru and add pressure. 150 PSI nitrogen is normal. These bikes are not that heavy. The bladder is possibly bad. I already had the nitrogen gauge and tank from doing AC work. Bought the needle kit and check my bike before a track event or race. You can tell sometimes if charge is down by how the rebound clicks feel and sound. Fully charged they should feel firm and you should hear them as you adjust. Nitrogen charge low they bill feel dull and you will barely hear them. Tools are expensive to do a shock and seals and thing who knows. I will do my own forks but no on the shock. Give it to the professionals. Improper rebuild can put you and the bike on the ground rather quickly or over the handle bars in a nasty high side. Trust me on this, why I taught myself about suspension. Plenty of videos to show you shock rebuiding. I would rebuild waht you have. A few hundred dollars tops I would think. A good place will send all the used parts back with the shock. Good luck
https://www.motionpro.com/a/nitrogen-needle-kit-08-0075
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0072
Nice his is letting you watch. Do not distract him while assembling. Watch a video so you know what is going on. And if he does not have a quality spring compressor walk away and say thanks for the offer. I look at someones shop and tools and make my decision to let someone put my life in their hands.
Maxton is a good call, but if plan A falls through, give Reactive Suspension in York a call. Gareth is very good and has rebuilt shocks that technically aren't rebuildable. If you want to learn, he runs a training school alongside his workshop to.
Quote from: rz500guy on July 25, 2022, 05:10:09 PM
https://www.motionpro.com/a/nitrogen-needle-kit-08-0075
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0072
This is the kit I used to fill my shock.
Here's the thing though, by the time I bought a nitrogen needle, shock fill gauge, nitrogen tank, and a decent spring compressor, I was into this project for about $525 USD!!! Makes those expensive rebuilds look not-so-bad in comparison. ;D
Only reason it made sense for me is I have a track bike which I'll be servicing the shock on every year. I should break even eventually.
Exactly. I had the nitrogen stuff so with track bike yes. A good service on suspension is worth it every few years. Find someone that is knowledgable and be sure they will follow up if you have a question. Most of us do not ride the bikes hard enough to notice thing but when you do and at speed one less thing to think about.
Lots of helpful advice here to bear in mind, thanks (-P)
Only took 30 mins to whip the swingarm and rear shock out. That's what it must have been like back in the day before everything was corroded on and parts where not hard to get hold of.
I'm going to take this to the suspension specialist near me and I'll see the kit he uses etc. I was at my local bike shop at the weekend (DoubleTake, Southampton) to MoT another bike and they mentioned Cresent Verwood have a full Olins workshop so there's another local option.
My guy tells me a lot of the internal parts are interchangeable. Just better tolerances, design, and and materials in the high end stuff.
Disappointing news for my SP shock, the local suspension guy stripped it all down but can't source a couple of parts, one being the main seal :-\
In other news the shock is in excellent condition aside of that, and he's recommended Gareth at Reactive Suspension (who trained him) or Brook Suspension who have a stash of NOS parts.
Some compensation is the other R shock I got off ebay isn't leaking and has good pressure. I'm wondering what to do but I've got a couple of calls to make Monday and I'll decide from there.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on August 06, 2022, 12:36:14 PM
Disappointing news for my SP shock, the local suspension guy stripped it all down but can't source a couple of parts, one being the main seal :-\
Had the same problem with my SPR shock and he was able to change the seal head to one that would accept a more common Showa seal size..
Good idea, thanks Karel. I will mention this (-P)
Brook Suspension don't want to know (but want to sell me an alternate shock). I'm sending the shock to Reactive Suspension for a no promises look.
If you don't get anywhere with Reactive, I believe these guys can rebuid an SP shock: https://twsuspensiontech.co.uk/
Quote from: Warwick on August 08, 2022, 03:35:16 PM
If you don't get anywhere with Reactive, I believe these guys can rebuid an SP shock: https://twsuspensiontech.co.uk/
Thanks Warwick! I'll try them after. I'm in danger of the shock doing more miles in a van than on the bike! ;D
Good luck. I hope most places are reasonably close. Some of these shops just want to deal with current bikes. Expect to pay a bit more or let them know that you are aware of the problem sourcing parts. Most will say they can do it to get you in the door and business is business, then upsell to a new shock. Keep us updated. As I said 10 days ago ordered main nozzles, no reply, no nothing. My TZ is easy compared to these bikes.
Good news - Gareth at Reactive Suspension has sourced all that's needed and has rebuilt the shock (-P) (-P) (-P)
Great news, Rich! What was the damage? I have one of the later ones the same that could do with rebuilding.
Thanks Warwick. I'll be back on the road in time for the nice weather to have descended into rain and storms :D
£200 for mine. Depends on what parts are needed I guess (-P)
Now wait. Who did you have to service to get shock fixed so quick? That was fast. I am over two weeks on a couple main nozzles for carbs. I need to find someone near Nottingham to see if they are still in business. They were open enough to get my money.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on August 15, 2022, 07:22:44 PM
£200 for mine. Depends on what parts are needed I guess (-P)
Thanks Rich. Sounds good. Let us know how it goes when you get it back. (-P)
Quote from: rz500guy on August 15, 2022, 08:02:22 PM
I am over two weeks on a couple main nozzles for carbs. I need to find someone near Nottingham to see if they are still in business. They were open enough to get my money.
Allens have been around forever. They are great for hard to find parts, but their comms practices are a bit last century ;D. As I mentioned on another post, you might need to ring them to chase up your order if you are in a hurry for the parts. (-P)
Quote from: rz500guy on August 15, 2022, 08:02:22 PM
Now wait. Who did you have to service to get shock fixed so quick? That was fast. I am over two weeks on a couple main nozzles for carbs. I need to find someone near Nottingham to see if they are still in business. They were open enough to get my money.
Gareth at Reactive Suspension (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on August 16, 2022, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on August 15, 2022, 07:22:44 PM
£200 for mine. Depends on what parts are needed I guess (-P)
Thanks Rich. Sounds good. Let us know how it goes when you get it back. (-P)
Will do (-P)
Wow that was quick. Door to door in a week!
Going in tonight after work (-P)
well done. Feather in their hat. Is that a compression adjuster at the top?
Yep. Compression and rebound adjusters.
It's all back together now, finally. Put it on once, got every back to torque, rear wheel, stupid exhaust all back on. Wheeled it away to take the straps down and do the 90mn swing arm torque and saw the bloody end cap on the floor :'(
So had to take at all back off to fit that cap again and blah blah blah. Language was quite inventive I can tell you.
Anyway, shock feels good, no clanks, clunks or other unspeakable mechanical noises from the shock or swing arm. Chain next and I'll run it round the block.
Good progress, Rich. The more you work on 'em the more your realise that they are really pretty straightforward, yeah? (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on August 17, 2022, 11:12:12 PM(-P)
Good progress, Rich. The more you work on 'em the more your realise that they are really pretty straightforward, yeah? (-P)
Yeah I had the swingarm on and off a few times and it's one bolt at a time. With the right tools it's straightforward but until you've done a particular thing it's always a nervous time. I'll report back on the ride quality with the rear shock rebuild (-P)
The 3xv manual should have warning about "ALWAYS INSTALL THE RIGHT HAND EXHAUST FIRST." If you don't do that and think you'll just work through it...well you may develop a new language unsuitable for your own ears.
Good to see your progress, Rich. Best wishes on your new, first ride.
Steve
What cap did you leave off? And yes rear shock is a pain. I use ratchet straps and hang it from the ceiling beams. Once i ride mine for a while my shock will be taken off and rebuilt. Do you know how to set the rear sag? I wrote a long section about it. If you need the high points will be happy to help.
Quote from: rz500guy on August 18, 2022, 04:48:34 PM
What cap did you leave off? And yes rear shock is a pain. I use ratchet straps and hang it from the ceiling beams. Once i ride mine for a while my shock will be taken off and rebuilt. Do you know how to set the rear sag? I wrote a long section about it. If you need the high points will be happy to help.
Swingarm end cap came off wiggling it in and I didn't notice.
Yep, thanks for that write up, far more comprehensive than anything I've found on the net. Once eveything is back on and weight is right, I'll do the measurements and adjustments :)
Quote from: Steveog on August 18, 2022, 12:40:00 AM
The 3xv manual should have warning about "ALWAYS INSTALL THE RIGHT HAND EXHAUST FIRST."
Absolutely Steve!
Progress was hampered somewhat as the chain came up short (pic).
In other news that was a good thing because I would have just jumped on and left it at that. With the enforced time (things happen for a reason rationale) I got the following items done.
Rear brake calliper cleaned and operating correctly. One side of the calliper was full of air, hence the asymmetric pad wear and the warped rear disc. All replaced and new pads.
New pads on both front brakes. All looking good with those.
Helicolied the right (NLA) engine hanger/stay which was stripped so it could be used with a bolt rather than a stupid sized nut and bolt.
New air filters fitted. Old ones has Japanese cherry blossom in.
Rear plastics back on (-P) Chain and fairing to go on tomorrow, parts arriving in time.
Deadly that mate, refitting the fairing, asking for trouble that is, lol :P
Good work though, look foward to seeing it rolling at Loomies O0
Quote from: bulldogboy on August 21, 2022, 11:58:08 PM
Deadly that mate, refitting the fairing, asking for trouble that is, lol :P
Good work though, look foward to seeing it rolling at Loomies O0
Not wrong there Gav! Chain on and after work tomorrow will be the final torque check and ride (-P) will be at loomies on Sunday O0
Test ride all checked out good! Handling with the new shock and mods suggested are perfect. Nimble and precise (-P)
The front discs felt quite hot when I got off, maybe that's normal. The brakes are not binding, and the chain stayed on (-P)
Fairings back on then carry on with the job of running in; including the TZR meet up at Loomies this Sunday O0
Last check before buttoning it up - check if anything is leaking
Good work :-)
+1 Revered Phil.
You should be proud of your dedication and skills to resurrect your 3xv.
My best for testing and tuning.
Steve
Hmmm. Fork seals next I guess. :'( And there's still something wrong with the clutch, maybe missing a washer.
Bummer, sorry to hear that. Just keep going and you will get there. Best wishes, Laurie
Changing the fork seals just gives you the opportunity to drain the stinky old inefficient sludge out and replace it with some nice, fresh properly damping fork oil. Crack on. (-P)
Yep, keep going (-P)
And yes Warwick, it does make sense to get the front just as sorted as the rear!
I had that in the back of my mind really, just fancied doing that over the winter and get a bit more time in the seat!
Rear is perfect, onto the front.... (And clutch again)
That's the spirit, Rich. Can be a bit of a (messy) faff of a job, so maybe keep a full day clear for it if you've not done USDs before. And watch a couple of you tube vids beforehand so you know what to expect and how to prep and what to have ready to tackle to job. Much less stress that way. (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on August 28, 2022, 02:54:03 PM
And there's still something wrong with the clutch, maybe missing a washer.
With the dry clutch, Rich I'd check the spacer/spring rings that fit inside the ID of the driven/drive plates. On the 3xv wet clutch, those rings are at the bottom of the stack. On the dry clutch they live in the middle. If I'm not mistaken the dry clutch plates need to be assembled in a very specific order.
Good Luck.
Steve
Just drain the oil outside. It will smell like a s*** that a s*** did.
Quote from: Steveog on August 28, 2022, 07:08:30 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on August 28, 2022, 02:54:03 PM
And there's still something wrong with the clutch, maybe missing a washer.
With the dry clutch, Rich I'd check the spacer/spring rings that fit inside the ID of the driven/drive plates. On the 3xv wet clutch, those rings are at the bottom of the stack. On the dry clutch they live in the middle. If I'm not mistaken the dry clutch plates need to be assembled in a very specific order.
Good Luck.
Steve
I actually did see this, part numbers 17 & 18. But they are not listed for the 3XV8, only the 9/A/C. Wonder why that is? I guess they'll fit a 3XV8 and maybe were deemed required from a shortcoming of the 3XV8 clutch?
I suspect I'm missing either 8, 21 (or both). I replaced all the o-rings and the plates and assembled via that order but I was so focussed on the plates one or two of those washers might have been missing. I just took off what I had and put it back in the same order if I wasn't renewing it.
Got me thinking now Steve! I have to pull it apart and take a look.
Quote from: yanw on August 28, 2022, 07:43:53 PM
Just drain the oil outside. It will smell like a s*** that a s*** did.
Quote from: Warwick on August 28, 2022, 06:55:15 PM
That's the spirit, Rich. Can be a bit of a (messy) faff of a job, so maybe keep a full day clear for it if you've not done USDs before. And watch a couple of you tube vids beforehand so you know what to expect and how to prep and what to have ready to tackle to job. Much less stress that way. (-P)
I'm going to take them off and hand them to that local suspension guy. He didn't charge me anything for stripping the SP shock and doing all the ringing around for the seals and it was his mentor that fixed the shock and got the cash; so I owe him a bit of work and a case of beer. In any case, I have read a lot on the forum about the forks and no one really had a fun time doing it by all accounts! Given mine has the original showa stickers on they've never been slipped out so I'll get them rebuilt/serviced.
Morning Rich.
Weeping oil seals!! Makes the heart sink. But well within your capabilities mate. Quite a straight forward methodical job. Happy to help.
I was swapping over my clutch when you did yours and still not happy with it. But when you said yours was playing up again I got to the diagrams to have a look at these rings that keep cropping up. Part Nos 17 and 18 and its all a bit odd.
As far as the exploded diagrams are concerned this is what I've found (too much time on my hands atm)
91 and 92 SP Not shown in diagram or listed as a part number
92 RS Drawn but no part number listing
93 94 RS and SP Drawn but parts NLA
SPR Drawn. No 17 available No 18 NLA
All a bit confusing and begs the question are they necessary as in essential ??
Did you change your springs at the same time as the plates or at least measure the ones that were in there?
It's well odd Andy! I'm using a standard friction plate as number 1 instead of the NLA plate with the cut outs for the rubbers so it shouldn't matter I don't have these anti-rattle(?) mid stack parts as that special friction is thinner and I'm using a thicker standard one.
I think I've found one problem. I said I only focused on the parts i replaced and put everything else back in the order I found it. Stupid assumption that the last bloke to take this off got it right - he didn't and like a loon I copied his mistake.
So clutch off and everything on the bench. No oil seeping onto the new plates and frictions (yay). The shim on the basket had been installed the wrong side, causing the basket to rock during engagement. You can see the odd pattern on the new plate.
No extra washers as per diagram though. More investigation required but at least I know the cause of the snagging clutch engagement
I dont think you need those washers but in any case they are NLA. Im running a STD friction plate too as the first plate'
I think that should be fine (-P)
Bit more investigation and the shim is not a shim, it's a washer so is right to be in the basket rather than behind.
Seems like part 19 and/or 20 (bearing) is knackered as I can move the hubs mounting back and forth with light pressure. The central shaft is solid with no play.
Just checking the 3XV8 manual and it has it's own clutch diagram (-P)
So I can't see part number 27 or 26 on the bike so more removal required.
I think 24 and/or 23 are worn
OK I think I see where it's going wrong. I don't seem to have that plate washer which would stabilise the whole clutch - part 27, as seen in the top picture. Good news is that it does not have a 3XV- part number so is a) reasonably priced and b) available.
I'll pop that on when it comes (back order) and give it a test. If I still have problems I'll look into the bearing/sleeve.
Looks like the inner washer is there.
But here's an interesting one - the inner oil seal. I can't see this on the 3XV part listings. Not on the clutch, not on the gearbox and not on the cases (where the outer seal part number is given)
Possibly it's part of the clutch itself? Markings are ARS (the company name) then B 10 then SD 30 40 5.
It could be this is the nearest replacement, not that I need it (yet to be proven) https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p26497/30x40x5mm-Nitrile-Rubber-Rotary-Shaft-Oil-Seal-with-Garter-Spring-R23-/-TC/product_info.html (https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p26497/30x40x5mm-Nitrile-Rubber-Rotary-Shaft-Oil-Seal-with-Garter-Spring-R23-/-TC/product_info.html)
Yep that's a manual error. That seal is listed in Yamaha's online part manual. Part #93102-30284.
Have you got washer #27 as well? (26 is just the o-ring).
Quote from: ybk on August 31, 2022, 12:40:58 AM
Yep that's a manual error. That seal is listed in Yamaha's online part manual. Part #93102-30284.
Have you got washer #27 as well? (26 is just the o-ring).
Thanks! I was going through everything on a just in case basis so that the last part number I need (-P) there's no oil leak so hopefully it's just adding in the missing parts to get back running. If not it'll go into replacing wearables.
Yep, oring and washer on order. I'm missing both of those and they should be here next week (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on August 28, 2022, 06:55:15 PM
That's the spirit, Rich. Can be a bit of a (messy) faff of a job, so maybe keep a full day clear for it if you've not done USDs before. And watch a couple of you tube vids beforehand so you know what to expect and how to prep and what to have ready to tackle to job. Much less stress that way. (-P)
It's not looking that easy from this vid! There's a few posts on here about completely dissembling the fork, which always seems fraught. I'm wondering what's involved in a seal & oil change. Does the lower damper rod retaining bolt need to be undone?
You don't need to remove the lower damper, but if your fork are ancient and untouched there can be quite a bit of sludge accumulated at the very bottom.
Compared to my nightmare with the rear shock, the forks are easy. Only somewhat difficult part I remember was getting the bushings out on disassembly. You have to use the lower tube as a slide hammer and wail on it quite a bit more than you'd probably like.
Quote from: Gooch on August 31, 2022, 01:59:16 PM
You don't need to remove the lower damper, but if your fork are ancient and untouched there can be quite a bit of sludge accumulated at the very bottom.
Compared to my nightmare with the rear shock, the forks are easy. Only somewhat difficult part I remember was getting the bushings out on disassembly. You have to use the lower tube as a slide hammer and wail on it quite a bit more than you'd probably like.
Ah thanks! This is covered in this YouTube which looks a lot simpler than the 4 handed pogo accident one I watched previously.. (at the right point in the vid) https://youtu.be/mm2F08Ys_zU?t=832 (https://youtu.be/mm2F08Ys_zU?t=832)
If it's as per the video I'll give this a go myself
The guy who did my RS forks said one set of bushes came out easy, the others were "difficult". I think I got my moneys worth.
Quote from: yanw on August 31, 2022, 04:22:20 PM
The guy who did my RS forks said one set of bushes came out easy, the others were "difficult". I think I got my moneys worth.
I've reviewed all the threads on here relating to R forks and they don't make happy reading. I'm in two minds about tackling this
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on August 31, 2022, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: yanw on August 31, 2022, 04:22:20 PM
The guy who did my RS forks said one set of bushes came out easy, the others were "difficult". I think I got my moneys worth.
I've reviewed all the threads on here relating to R forks and they don't make happy reading. I'm in two minds about tackling this
It's the seals that can be sticky in the outers rather than the bushes really (plenty of heat on the outside of the tube generally sorts it). Stripping and rebuilding the forks isn't a difficult job, but it can be a little awkward and messy - and frustrating/time consuming if you don't have the right kit: seal driver etc. If in doubt, or you simply don't want the hassle, just take them to the fellas you owe a favour. They'll have the kit to do the job in a fraction of the time it will take you at home, and hopefully you'll know the job has been done right. (-P)
Hi Rich. Sounds like yr on the edge of a decision. Most frustrating thing about your first set is not knowing order of things and tools. But once you've done one set the next take a tenth of the time. If you're tempted then go for it. If not then get them done for you. All the tools I used were semi basic and a little bit of home adapted. I would say def do the bottom cartridge bolt and washer and do it with the forks assembled - you'll need an impact driver 👍. I'm sure loads here can help and get you sorted but it's a relatively simple job compared to what you've done so far
This video is pretty close - https://youtu.be/mm2F08Ys_zU?t=832 (https://youtu.be/mm2F08Ys_zU?t=832) - thanks Chippy. I've also read Malcs SP fork rebuild PDF which ties in close with this.
So... I'm going for it. My plan is not to remove the damper assembly, just do seals and oil, nothings sticky and any wearables in there are NLA anyway. I've ordered the seals & dust caps. Despite the various YouTube videos on black tape projects (!) and PVC pipe adaptations I've gone for a similar stye seal driver as per the vid. Have the tubes etc too. If it goes wrong I'll just pop down the road to the local guy and pay full price for him to complete the job.
I'm 80KG so going to 7.5WT fork oil, it's only to be used on the road. Sound about right?
Anything critical I'm missing? It'll be a few weeks before I give this a go as waiting on the clutch parts and want that engine done.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 02, 2022, 04:31:34 PM
Anything critical I'm missing? It'll be a few weeks before I give this a go as waiting on the clutch parts and want that engine done.
Yes - If you don't remove the damper rods you won't be able to get the worst of the sludgy, contaminated oil residue out and the new oil will be horribly contaminated from the off. Much better to do the job properly I reckon.
Removing the damper rods is not usually a problem if you rattle gun the allen bolts loose
before splitting the forks.
Quote from: Warwick on September 02, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 02, 2022, 04:31:34 PM
Anything critical I'm missing? It'll be a few weeks before I give this a go as waiting on the clutch parts and want that engine done.
Yes - If you don't remove the damper rods you won't be able to get the worst of the sludgy, contaminated oil residue out and the new oil will be horribly contaminated from the off. Much better to do the job properly I reckon.
Removing the damper rods is not usually a problem if you rattle gun the allen bolts loose before splitting the forks.
I prefer not to take the engine out the frame - I did
I prefer not to take to swing arm out - I did
I see a pattern here Warwick. Internals coming out then (-P)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 02, 2022, 05:11:28 PM
I prefer not to take the engine out the frame - I did
I prefer not to take to swing arm out - I did
I see a pattern here Warwick. Internals coming out then (-P)
Being more thorough can initially seem like making more work for yourself, but it often isn't really. And it's definitely the right approach of course: 'Do the job right, do it once' and all that... C:-)
You'll need to anneal the copper washers that go with the damper rod bolt at the bottom (or replace, they are a bit pricey for some reason ?:-| ). You will also need a tool to secure the damper rod on the inside when assembling again otherwise it just spins when trying to torque it up.
I've not done it for 30+ years but I remember jamming a wooden broom handle in to help tighten the nut. Also as they are really awkward shape, you can do a lot of work with the fork leg still clamped in the yokes, as long as you have decent under stem support
Quote from: ybk on September 03, 2022, 09:31:30 AM
You will also need a tool to secure the damper rod on the inside when assembling again otherwise it just spins when trying to torque it up.
Funnily enough, I've never had that problem with R forks, only SP ones. Not sure if its just been luck, or if the different design of the SP set-up makes them more prone to spinning though? ?:-|
Oh looks like forks will be an education for me :o using spring pressure - such as getting as tight as poss and leaving the final torques until it was on the bike, poss using the preload? I'm sure there's a variety of techniques ?:-|
While I'm bored I'm putting notches in a thick standard plate to match the old first plate so I can use £50 worth of green rubber. Stacking cutting wheels gives the right width and working out a good way of marking the depth is challenging!
And success. After creating "guides" for the depth of cut and some careful appreciation with a hand file.... (Oh and having to dissemble my dremmel, including drilling its case so I could get a security bit in)
Very good. I was going to try exactly that. Wonder if using a complete set of new std plates would be too thick. (Tho without those confusing centre two rings then maybe not )
Is this a test run or are you going to fit a good used plate
When I was running a worn clutch it rattled a lot less after I put the greens on. The first plate was so worn I didn't reuse it when I got all the new steels and fibres but put a standard fibre in the stack instead of the one with cut outs. This should just help my new clutch plates rattle less (-P)
I fitted the ring and it's washer. Neither check the rocking of the basket so can't imagine this is fixed. At a loss really.
Too miserable out to test ride so I'll say "can't be any worse than it was" and crack on (or off actually) with the forks tomorrow.
Time for the forks. I've watched a load of YouTube vids, read all the posts on the forum and read the PDF from Malc and had a good chat with Chippy on the phone.
Here's what I did...
- Took off front calipers and cable tied them out the way
- Took out front wheel spindle pinch bolts
- Circlip off and loosened front wheel spindle
- Loosened clip ons
- Loosened top clamps
- Wound the preload in to get a socket on the top caps
- Loosened fork top caps
- Got the bike off the floor
- Front spindle and wheel out
- Front mudguard off
- Lossened bottom clamps
- Slid the forks out
- Loosened off the damper bolts
- Undid the top caps
No rattle guns needed everything was tight enough but moved nicely. Then the fun started, and I'll need some advice.
The first fork I got the inner tube slid down to expose the 14mm locknut. Try as I might, it wouldn't budge. So I decided to drain the oil, tipped it up and the whole top cap ring and all flopped out on the floor with about 300ml of stinky oil. That's odd, I thought.
Right fork (the leaky one). Did the same, top cap off and went to extract the inners in a controlled manner, and it all came out apart from but the spring was missing. Found the spring still in the fork tube, so tipped it out and a little cap came out too. That's different again, I thought.
This has not gone as per the recommended retail route. See pics - Suggestions?
Cap sits on the bottom end of the damper rod (allen bolt goes through it and into the rod). Looks like the other one is still on the damper to me?
Quote from: Warwick on September 07, 2022, 11:24:41 PM
Cap sits on the bottom end of the damper rod (allen bolt goes through it and into the rod). Looks like the other one is still on the damper to me?
Yep looks like I unwound the bottom bolt by accident unscrewing the top cap. Ditched the two 14mm spanner approach by winding in the preload adjuster and getting a 27mm socket on the cap (Thanks for the tip Chippy). Now all I have to do is source the fork bush guide and slider for one side which is beggered. The other side is lovely and pinged off real easy.
Looking at Brooke Suspension these things are standard fare (I hope) because the OEM ones are £38 and NLA for a set in expensive Yamaha bags.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 06, 2022, 09:41:02 PM
I fitted the ring and it's washer. Neither check the rocking of the basket so can't imagine this is fixed. At a loss really.
Too miserable out to test ride so I'll say "can't be any worse than it was" and crack on (or off actually) with the forks tomorrow.
I think I have sourced the fork bushings. Not for £38 each but for £25 both sides for slide & glide. I'll let you all know the part numbers and the source if they are any good.
Anyway, Gav and I have had a chat on the odd clutch problem. I think it's the missing oring/washer that's caused the issue. Rationale: Without those the inner hub set further back in relation to the clutch. With the clutch in there's a gap between which a steel ring can slip it's seating. When I go to re-engage the skipping teeth noise I hear is that plate getting trapped and not allowing the clutch to close back up to engage.
With the parts installed the pushrod has less throw in relation to the inner hub and therefore pulling the clutch in can't displace any plates. That's the theory, and the hopeless optimism that keeps these TZRs under spanner rather than the hammer. Better test this out when I have some steering back.
Re: the clutch. It's a pretty simple system, so as long as all the parts are in good order, fitted in the correct order, and adjusted correctly, all should be well really. Never had a problem with clutches (wet or dry) other than leaky case seals on the dry ones TBH though.
Quote from: Warwick on September 09, 2022, 07:44:22 PM
Re: the clutch. It's a pretty simple system, so as long as all the parts are in good order, fitted in the correct order, and adjusted correctly, all should be well really. Never had a problem with clutches (wet or dry) other than leaky case seals on the dry ones TBH though.
Agreed it must be missing parts (-P)
Some good news. My fork bushes arrived and they are spot on to the tenth of a mm. My callipers goes to 100's but I'm not that good at measuring. £25 quid including postage.
Damper rods torqued up nicely without any spinning but I had a plan if that was going to happen. Put the spring, long bush and top cap on wrist tight, then stand the fork upside down on thick rags, pressing down on the fork to get spring force sticktion. Didn't need to but thought I'd share.
New dust seals, fork seals and bushes. All went in really easily and the good bit was the thick plastic bags the bushes came in worked out as excellent bullets!!!
Quitting while ahead for today
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 09, 2022, 11:20:26 PM
Quote from: Warwick on September 09, 2022, 07:44:22 PM
Re: the clutch. It's a pretty simple system, so as long as all the parts are in good order, fitted in the correct order, and adjusted correctly, all should be well really. Never had a problem with clutches (wet or dry) other than leaky case seals on the dry ones TBH though.
Agreed it must be missing parts (-P)
Some good news. My fork bushes arrived and they are spot on to the tenth of a mm. My callipers goes to 100's but I'm not that good at measuring. £25 quid including postage.
Damper rods torqued up nicely without any spinning but I had a plan if that was going to happen. Put the spring, long bush and top cap on wrist tight, then stand the fork upside down on thick rags, pressing down on the fork to get spring force sticktion. Didn't need to but thought I'd share.
New dust seals, fork seals and bushes. All went in really easily and the good bit was the thick plastic bags the bushes came in worked out as excellent bullets!!!
Quitting while ahead for today
Awesome news Rich. Great work tracking those down.
Will get some on order soon to do mine.
Much progress.
Now it didn't fall over I can reveal the "front stand". Front weighted 72.5kg and rear weighed 65kg, so I figures if it was good enough for the back I'll handle an extra few kilos. As it didn't break I'll reveal! (see pic)
The seal driver I bought seemed too big so a zip tie helped. That said, using some rubber lube on the fork seal you can pretty much get it there bar a few sharp taps by just hanging off it. Nice crisp clicks as the clips when in.
The fun part was how to make sure the damper rod didn't sink back as the spring and long collar go on. I decided on a piece of string tied above the locknut. Worked really well and a couple of long Allen drive bits gave perfect purchase for pushing the collar down.
Bike all back together and took it out for a decent run. Forks behaved really well and I'll set up the front/rear preload etc tomorrow now everything works! Also the clutch didn't do it's stupid teeth grinding thing, so maybe those extra parts and green rubbers have solved the problem.
Only one minor issue. I confused the clip on torque with the top clamp torque and sheered one of the clip on bolts off. I think this bike doesn't want to get out of maintenance mode. Very frustrating but doesn't stop me riding it.
PS - all the oil on the carpet you can see is not TZR blood - it's Smokey Bandit goo
Great work, Rich.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on September 10, 2022, 08:26:07 PM
Great work, Rich.
Steve
Thanks Steve & for your help in this rebuild. I soon hope to progress from "TZR Owner" to "TZR Rider"
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 10, 2022, 07:25:09 PM
Only one minor issue. I confused the clip on torque with the top clamp torque and sheered one of the clip on bolts off. I think this bike doesn't want to get out of maintenance mode. Very frustrating but doesn't stop me riding it.
Torque wrenches are useful tools, but you really don't need them for fasteners like this. Save yourself the hassle and trust your feel. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on September 11, 2022, 01:12:53 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 10, 2022, 07:25:09 PM
Only one minor issue. I confused the clip on torque with the top clamp torque and sheered one of the clip on bolts off. I think this bike doesn't want to get out of maintenance mode. Very frustrating but doesn't stop me riding it.
Torque wrenches are useful tools, but you really don't need them for fasteners like this. Save yourself the hassle and trust your feel. (-P)
That's uncanny. Warwick the Wise! How did you know?? Yes, as I was doing those up I got that feeling the bolt was not getting tighter, just longer, but I ignored that feeling, even swapping to a solid state bit and extension bar from the long (and marginally flexible) impact bit. Another lesson learned
For anyone interested the 39mm fork bushes, slide and guide are available as pattern parts. The OEM parts are £38 each, if you can get them outside of the JP parts site Rick shared. If you need these you can pick them up from https://www.mymotoparts.co.uk (https://www.mymotoparts.co.uk), which is the retail site of HiLine1, the company that Brooke's Suspension recommended to me. Part numbers are 751023 and 752039. They match the dims, best I could measure, and I got these of under £25 posted as a full set for both forks.
Back to the clutch issue. I'll try to explain this. When letting out the lever the clutch bite feels normal but as the bike just starts to move it feels like it's jumped half out of gear, there's a teeth graunching noise for a second of two without any drive as a let the lever out further, and then the bike lurches as if dumping the clutch and everything is fine. I have tried this in 1st and 2nd and it's the same. This has happened with old plates and brand new plates.
The teeth on the gears between the crank and clutch look perfect, no damage or marks. Clutch is fully assembled with all the parts (now) as per the 3XV8 parts diagram. The basket does have movement which looks like too much to me. Any ideas? I'm thinking a new oil seal (doesn't leak but a new one may be stiffer) and new roller bearings.
How's the clutch on changes once rolling? If OK, could it simply be the sound of the clutch slipping and then gripping under load (they dry ones can sound pretty 'orrible' if they do this). In any case, it would be useful to check the operation and the routing of the clutch cable (ensure routing is smooth and not clamped tight anywhere - always worth lubing too), and also the operation of the actuator arm and pushrod etc., looking for any kind of drag or slow return when releasing the lever. Also worth dialling in the maximum amount of slack at the lever end too to see if that improves things at all.
Quote from: Warwick on September 11, 2022, 05:12:38 PM
How's the clutch on changes once rolling? If OK, could it simply be the sound of the clutch slipping and then gripping under load (they dry ones can sound pretty 'orrible' if they do this). In any case, it would be useful to check the operation and the routing of the clutch cable (ensure routing is smooth and not clamped tight anywhere - always worth lubing too), and also the operation of the actuator arm and pushrod etc., looking for any kind of drag or slow return when releasing the lever. Also worth dialling in the maximum amount of slack at the lever end too to see if that improves things at all.
The lever and cable feel good. I paid a lot of attention on the routing when I put the engine back and did take the chance to lube it. Slack at the end with the lever full out and visually checked the operation of the basket (without the engine running) is smooth and proportional.
Yeah the clutch is great changing gear, no drag, no slipping. It's just getting of the line that's the issue. Prior to the rebuild, with old plates it used to do this and I assumed it was a problem with the plates or worn chain/sprockets. After the rebuild, when I took it for it's MOT I literally had to paddle it to get enough speed for it to hook back up. Not every time pulling away but about 1/3rd of the time. It's no consistent. Since then I've filed the basket and it's been better, and when I put the slots in and the green rubbers (and sorted the washer/oring) it is now a bit better still.
I think the instability in the clutch basket could be a cause? Making the plates go radically out of square until the force overcomes and they literally snap back - which would explain the lack of drive and then the feeling of dumping the clutch. Uploaded a movie of the plate behind the basket to show how much play there is. Does this look ok? With the basket on of course the movement is bigger due to being father from the centre.
I have an issue with one of my RGV's. It's impossible to set off at a gentle pass. You have to rev the nuts off it and it jerks and grabs makign the whole thing shudder until you get enough speed up and get the clutch fully home. It's made worse having a CR gearbox with very high 1st gear. It wore a set of plates out in a few hundred miles and they started slipping. However the juddering stopped. New plates and the juddering is back. This is on a brand new clutch, inner and outer, plates and springs. I suspect a missing washer allowing the clutch basket to move, which sounds like the same thing you have.
It's next up on the bench so if I find something I'll let you know.
Quote from: mellorp on September 11, 2022, 09:33:56 PM
I have an issue with one of my RGV's. It's impossible to set off at a gentle pass. You have to rev the nuts off it and it jerks and grabs makign the whole thing shudder until you get enough speed up and get the clutch fully home. It's made worse having a CR gearbox with very high 1st gear. It wore a set of plates out in a few hundred miles and they started slipping. However the juddering stopped. New plates and the juddering is back. This is on a brand new clutch, inner and outer, plates and springs. I suspect a missing washer allowing the clutch basket to move, which sounds like the same thing you have.
It's next up on the bench so if I find something I'll let you know.
Thanks - I'll look forward to any insight, here's the least severe example of the issue... familiar?
Just pulled a clip from my ride today (sorry, sound level is low, you'll have to max the volume). As I pull away you can hear the noise twice, once initially then again, so twice.
When this was at its worse (going to get the MOT) it was 1-3 seconds with no drive, but I've overwritten that clip ::)
(Karel - can you increase the mp4 file size limit from 10 to 25MB, or accept .MOV files?)
Are all the gears shimmed up & meshing correctly?
Have you checked the gearbox ? You may have a circuit dropped out or broken which may cause the pinion to move out of mesh temporarily
This could be dangerous if the incorrect pinions mesh!
Quote from: jools on September 11, 2022, 11:22:48 PM
Are all the gears shimmed up & meshing correctly?
Have you checked the gearbox ? You may have a circuit dropped out or broken which may cause the pinion to move out of mesh temporarily
This could be dangerous if the incorrect pinions mesh!
I didn't find any spare parts when I took the gearbox out. But - To be honest I've no idea what I'd expect to see or not :-\ I have to pull the side case off to replace the clutch roller and seal, I can take the box out the same time. I hate this bike
It's time to take stock of this project. I have buttoned everything up as done twice now and this will be the third "oh there's another problem" moment I've had over the past year.
My initial thoughts were "Just sell it", but I realised it's not worth much more than £3k with the issues it has in either clutch or gearbox or both as it has to be a "for repair" sale. I toyed with the idea of breaking it for parts to make my money back but again the clutch/gearbox issues put a dent in that and also I can't be arsed to spanner it more.
So, I'm left with the conclusion I have to push on, and when it's done and dyno'ed it'll be worth something. (Anything that's not standard is worth less unless the modifications have made it "better" than OEM and that can be proved).
So I have ordered a load of clutch parts from Andy at Webb's, who equally has no idea on what the underlying issue is. I'll pick this up again in a while and let you know what I find.
Not laughing at you but I know what it's like. I just got my nsr250 going after having to tear apart the top end. To replace a seized top end due to crankshaft center seal failure.
Went through all this hassle to send crankshaft to Japan to have it rebuilt at some old school shop. Which meant having to use a middle man actually on site. So $$$ was needed.
Get it all back together again running great better than before. Do a few heat cycles a couple quick rides around the hood.
First real ride about halfway into the ride it developed an electrical short and it just shuts off like I flicked the kill switch off.
So instead of messing with the old wiring harness and that dmr Japan guy is now selling. New repro updated ones. I just bought one off webike for $202. Taking advantage of the weak yen. Normally they are like $300.
Yea I hate this bike >:D
Why not just take it to an experienced local bike mechanic? I expect they will at least be able to diagnose the problem quite easily.
This may or may not help. The RGV clutch judder investigation proved fruitless. I had a brand new Cougar Red inner and outer, new friction plates and it was dreadful. I replaced the entire thing with a crappy old inner outer and push plate, old steels and the same friction plates that were in the CR stack. I even had to scrape some sticky goo off the old parts. The entire thing was sat in an old box and had been discarded by someone years ago.
Low and behold it's perfect.
Closer examination of the CR parts and there is no visible issue, but it must be out of balance or something.
What is has proven is
Gearbox shafts and bearings are fine
Clutch friction plates are fine
So the conclusion is the problem was either the outer or the inner as the push plate doesn't affect the friction
I conclude it was the outer that has somehow deformed fingers as it's the only thing that can be out of kilter and cause the issues I had
The CR items are going back for them to inspect
Quote from: SeaR1ck on September 14, 2022, 05:35:41 PM
Not laughing at you but I know what it's like. I just got my nsr250 going after having to tear apart the top end. To replace a seized top end due to crankshaft center seal failure.
Went through all this hassle to send crankshaft to Japan to have it rebuilt at some old school shop. Which meant having to use a middle man actually on site. So $$$ was needed.
Get it all back together again running great better than before. Do a few heat cycles a couple quick rides around the hood.
First real ride about halfway into the ride it developed an electrical short and it just shuts off like I flicked the kill switch off.
So instead of messing with the old wiring harness and that dmr Japan guy is now selling. New repro updated ones. I just bought one off webike for $202. Taking advantage of the weak yen. Normally they are like $300.
Yea I hate this bike >:D
Yes, these bikes are easy to love when they work, easy to hate when they don't work. Just wished I'd seen the former!
Quote from: Warwick on September 14, 2022, 06:15:05 PM
Why not just take it to an experienced local bike mechanic? I expect they will at least be able to diagnose the problem quite easily.
If it's the gearbox that's a specialist in my mind. I can ID the parts to see if anythings missing but as far as play and is stuff straight, meshing right etc, I don't have the skill or enthusiasm to try! I just want it buttoned up and working and then I can dwell on next steps!
Quote from: mellorp on September 14, 2022, 07:50:32 PM
This may or may not help. The RGV clutch judder investigation proved fruitless. I had a brand new Cougar Red inner and outer, new friction plates and it was dreadful. I replaced the entire thing with a crappy old inner outer and push plate, old steels and the same friction plates that were in the CR stack. I even had to scrape some sticky goo off the old parts. The entire thing was sat in an old box and had been discarded by someone years ago.
Low and behold it's perfect.
Closer examination of the CR parts and there is no visible issue, but it must be out of balance or something.
What is has proven is
Gearbox shafts and bearings are fine
Clutch friction plates are fine
So the conclusion is the problem was either the outer or the inner as the push plate doesn't affect the friction
I conclude it was the outer that has somehow deformed fingers as it's the only thing that can be out of kilter and cause the issues I had
The CR items are going back for them to inspect
This helps because - someone has had this problem and fixed it. Thanks (-P) I sure hope it's just the clutch. £80 of parts will be here next week and it's getting motivated to pull the side of the bike off and replace them all. Do let us know what Cougar Red say when they examine it all please? I've been suspecting balance/play throwing the plates out of square with the lever in causing the the issue for them to not mesh smoothly and grind and finally grab with the plates coming together.
Quote from: mellorp on September 14, 2022, 07:50:32 PM
I had a brand new Cougar Red inner and outer, new friction plates and it was dreadful.
Something to consider is the Cougar Red clutch is a lot lighter than the standard RGV one. Maybe this reduction is mass made the clutch "wobble" more as it had less inertia and the issue could be the same as (I'm hoping) mine is - bad bearing for the clutch to hang off?
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 14, 2022, 09:34:51 PM
Quote from: Warwick on September 14, 2022, 06:15:05 PM
Why not just take it to an experienced local bike mechanic? I expect they will at least be able to diagnose the problem quite easily.
If it's the gearbox that's a specialist in my mind. I can ID the parts to see if anythings missing but as far as play and is stuff straight, meshing right etc, I don't have the skill or enthusiasm to try! I just want it buttoned up and working and then I can dwell on next steps!
A decent mechanic should be able to tell you if the problem is in the clutch or in the gearbox was my thinking. My 50p is on a pretty simple clutch issue from your description, but someone with plenty of experience should be able to diagnose the issue with a reasonable degree of certainty after a quick look over/test I'd think. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on September 15, 2022, 12:10:58 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 14, 2022, 09:34:51 PM
Quote from: Warwick on September 14, 2022, 06:15:05 PM
Why not just take it to an experienced local bike mechanic? I expect they will at least be able to diagnose the problem quite easily.
If it's the gearbox that's a specialist in my mind. I can ID the parts to see if anythings missing but as far as play and is stuff straight, meshing right etc, I don't have the skill or enthusiasm to try! I just want it buttoned up and working and then I can dwell on next steps!
A decent mechanic should be able to tell you if the problem is in the clutch or in the gearbox was my thinking. My 50p is on a pretty simple clutch issue from your description, but someone with plenty of experience should be able to diagnose the issue with a reasonable degree of certainty after a quick look over/test I'd think. (-P)
Agreed (-P) Hitting the phone tomorrow
Just come back from holiday (St Lucia very nice), read your thread....
NO YOU DON'T HATE THE BIKE, none of us do, there old, finicky and annoying. Getting parts, getting it running right, it's all up hill but you don't hate you want just to ride it.
When we meet I see the enthusiasm, the love, the camaraderie we all have. These are amazing bikes, rare, and draw crowds everyone's jealous.
Keep up the good spirits and you will prevail.
The goal is there, reach it and we'll enjoy the meets and rides again...
+1 Jamie. Well said. We understand, Rich.
+2 Jamie.
As you said "These are amazing bikes, rare, and draw crowds everyone's jealous"
One of the guys at Loomies was asking lots of questions about our bikes and said he would love one. And he was riding this !!!!
p.s. Nice backdrop. (-P)
Thanks guys. Yes it goes down to what Jamie says - I want to ride the darn thing, not to look at it like a workshop piece you'd find in the average BTEC college.
I have not had any success on the phone with "oh yeah, I know what you're talking about" response yet. However I have seen some other similar issues on the net, including wet clutch & hydraulic clutch.
Quote
The clutch grab issue occurs when taking off from a stand still at higher than usual rpm, e.g. after making my way to the front of traffic that has stopped at a traffic light. The light turns green and in an attempt to get ahead of the traffic I will attempt a "spirited" take off. Of course this means allowing the clutch to slip a little in the process. After the initial take off has been achieved but before I have completely released the clutch lever the clutch will make a strange sound for half a second or so before the clutch suddenly grabs and I lurch forward with alarming ferocity.
Quote
Normally with high rpm drag style launches the clutch judders and usually engages to early and doesnt allow the rider to slip the clutch all the way to the end of the clutch lever travel.
Quote
If I have the clutch in at a stop and then want to let it out there seems to be a little grab just as I ease the lever out but it is quite a bit away from where it needs to be to actually take off
I read this is a common problem on Ducati Hyperstrada and everything I've read looks at cushioning the stack as a solution. This is all on modern bikes and won't consider the wear and play I'm seeing. I hope the parts I've ordered to reduce the basket wobble will be the fix.
(I'm also getting some insight in the Bol D'Or - won't name the bike or be a spoiler)
Back on the wagon for this weekend. Everything that I've not replaced on the clutch that's still available.
Once again thanks goes to Andy at Webbs for the 10% forum discount
If that doesnt work maybe try the 2 metal rings, / clutch boss springs, from the later dry clutches?
Maybe thats why those rings were added later, maybe people reported this problem with the earlier ones?
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 22, 2022, 11:18:49 PM???
If that doesnt work maybe try the 2 metal rings, / clutch boss springs, from the later dry clutches?
Maybe thats why those rings were added later, maybe people reported this problem with the earlier ones?
I agree. Why would they add them? Makes a lot of sense. (-P) I'll find out this weekend :o
One still available one not, although i found the NLA one with some google / yahoo auctions searches.
Not sure how that would affect the height of your clutch stack, considering your already using a thicker plate than the NLA ones with the rubbers?
Just occurred to me......i wonder if the plate with the rubbers has always been thinner, OR was it introduced later when the rings were added to compensate for the extra parts in the stack?
Quote from: bulldogboy on September 23, 2022, 02:28:18 PM
One still available one not, although i found the NLA one with some google / yahoo auctions searches.
Not sure how that would affect the height of your clutch stack, considering your already using a thicker plate than the NLA ones with the rubbers?
Just occurred to me......i wonder if the plate with the rubbers has always been thinner, OR was it introduced later when the rings were added to compensate for the extra parts in the stack?
I think you're right. There must have been a reason to add these to the stack. Only 500/1000 3XV8's made so hardly worth a recall just improve it next year. I'll try to source these if things don't improve.
First job on the list done - replace the snapped clip on bolt. Being patient is a good tool to use, but also these...
Gearbox oil after 100km
That drill bit is neat 8)
Even after draining the gearbox oil there's still a lot of bad oil left over in the crevices so I think you're seeing remnants of that..
Keep at it!
Thanks! Drill bit is a woodworking "hinge bit" with the drill switched out for a LH easy out drill. Really helps in a hole to avoid slipping off the bolt and messing up the thread in the clip on (-P)
I have got new oil now and I think that debris was me reusing the g/box oil that had been subject to the crankcase blowing into the gearbox - I previously drained it back into the original bottle without paying attention to it. New oil will prove the integrity of the rebuild! :)
Well here's one area that could have caused the bad clutch behaviour. Hmmm.
Anyway, I have replaced these short springs (supposed to be TZ springs) with regular 3XV springs, I have replaced the clutch roller bearing and inner seal (thanks for your tips on that ybk (-P)). I have also replaced the basket with another worn unit. (thanks Gav for help getting this from the land of the rising sun (-P))
The great thing about this basket is that although there are ridges on the fingers pretty much the same as my filed basket, the finger gaps are 14.00mm rather than mine which were 14.45mm (+/- 0.05mm). So the clutch now only makes that lovely dry clutch noise when the lever is pulled in rather than the old basket that sounded like a bag of spanners being carried by pogo stick courier down a cobbled road.
Anyway, I'll not say it's fixed ;D - I'll just say it's not broken :P - I can pull away and it doesn't hang up, lurch, grab, make horrible noises. See vid.
I'd say it wus the dodgy springs that were the most likely culprits there then. Someone probs put the TZ ones in thinking they'd be better somehow... ::) Anyway, good that it's better. To the dyno! And maybe this thread can get back to it's original aim? :))
Quote from: Warwick on September 25, 2022, 07:02:26 PM
I'd say it wus the dodgy springs that were the most likely culprits there then. Someone probs put the TZ ones in thinking they'd be better somehow... ::) Anyway, good that it's better. To the dyno! And maybe this thread can get back to it's original aim? :))
Quite right! Let's get this thing on the dyno and see what this 14 month epic has done (apart from empty my wallet!). Consensus is the springs I'd say. I can't say enough, I really want this thread to end and I'm sure everyone on the forum thinks likewise ;D
Hmmm.... Some little bells went off after I'd looked at the clutch spring pic again. Have you double checked that those are the springs you needed fr yours - 3XV9 isn't it? I think the part number on the new ones might be for the wet clutch springs? Not sure about the RSs, but all the SP dry clutch springs are: 90501-246G8. IIRc the dry clutch springs are a shorter spring than the wet clutch springs, and are lighter (different to the TZ springs though I think). Anyway, worth checking. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on September 25, 2022, 08:25:58 PM
Hmmm.... Some little bells went off after I'd looked at the clutch spring pic again. Have you double checked that those are the springs you needed fr yours - 3XV9 isn't it? I think the part number on the new ones might be for the wet clutch springs? Not sure about the RSs, but all the SP dry clutch springs are: 90501-246G8. IIRc the dry clutch springs are a shorter spring than the wet clutch springs, and are lighter (different to the TZ springs though I think). Anyway, worth checking. (-P)
3XV8 - I'll check what I ordered and what I received. Changing springs is easy so not a disaster if they are wrong
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 25, 2022, 10:21:59 PM
Quote from: Warwick on September 25, 2022, 08:25:58 PM
Hmmm.... Some little bells went off after I'd looked at the clutch spring pic again. Have you double checked that those are the springs you needed fr yours - 3XV9 isn't it? I think the part number on the new ones might be for the wet clutch springs? Not sure about the RSs, but all the SP dry clutch springs are: 90501-246G8. IIRc the dry clutch springs are a shorter spring than the wet clutch springs, and are lighter (different to the TZ springs though I think). Anyway, worth checking. (-P)
3XV8 - I'll check what I ordered and what I received. Changing springs is easy so not a disaster if they are wrong
Bloody good spot Warwick!!!!!!!
Looks like I have the wet clutch springs installed! :o
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 25, 2022, 10:26:59 PM
Bloody good spot Warwick!!!!!!!
Looks like I have the wet clutch springs installed! :o
Yeah... Not sure whether I should be pleased or embarrassed that there's that much nerd in me though.... ;D
Quote from: Warwick on September 25, 2022, 11:01:46 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on September 25, 2022, 10:26:59 PM
Bloody good spot Warwick!!!!!!!
Looks like I have the wet clutch springs installed! :o
Yeah... Not sure whether I should be pleased or embarrassed that there's that much nerd in me though.... ;D
Well I'm grateful ;)
Stick with it. I'm no stranger to long term projects. My Walter Wolf took 5 years to get somewhere near rideable and it's still getting tweaks. I've owned that since 2013. The RGV600 I've owned since 2015 is no where near right as yet. In my defence I have bought built and fixed and sold lots of bikes in the last 10 years but some projects just drag on and on... Stick with it you are nearly there.
Quote from: mellorp on September 26, 2022, 11:22:00 AM
Stick with it. I'm no stranger to long term projects. My Walter Wolf took 5 years to get somewhere near rideable and it's still getting tweaks. I've owned that since 2013. The RGV600 I've owned since 2015 is no where near right as yet. In my defence I have bought built and fixed and sold lots of bikes in the last 10 years but some projects just drag on and on... Stick with it you are nearly there.
Sticking with it!
I'm going to swap out the wet clutch springs for the dry clutch ones and give it a test. If the clutch issue comes back... I'll put the wet clutch springs back in. Yes they are longer but are no stiffer, so I'd imagine they increase the spring force and little else, just like fitting stiffer standard length ones (not that I can find more than the TZ ones I used).
The wet springs don't bottom out and the lever is full & free with little detectable extra force required to operate. Test test test!
Sounds like a good plan, Rich. Not an engineer, obviously, but I can't really see any reason why you shouldn't use the Wet clutch springs if you really need to to make it work and they function ok in use?
Agreed. The longer springs will put more strain on the bolts and the pillars they screw into. On my RGV (6 bolts) I use 3 long springs and 3 short springs. But as you have 5 springs You could use long, short, long, long, short to split the difference.
I just did a back to back with the wet clutch springs vs the dry TZ springs
With the dry springs the bite was closer to full lever out and there's bags of free play
Wet springs the bite is comfortably in the mid range
Both make a bit of a graunch noise, but that only on a 7k racing start. Wet springs behave better than dry at normal road launch conditions which provoke that noise at lower rpms
I'm going with the wet springs (-P)
So long as the springs don't bind at all, I can't really see it being a problem - though the correct springs for the job would be prefferable perhaps?. Anyway, the bigger question is: Will it have a date with Mr. Dyno before the year is out? ??? 8)
Quote from: Warwick on October 09, 2022, 11:46:16 AM
So long as the springs don't bind at all, I can't really see it being a problem - though the correct springs for the job would be prefferable perhaps?. Anyway, the bigger question is: Will it have a date with Mr. Dyno before the year is out? ??? 8)
I'll see if I can get the NLA bits that go in the clutch stack for the later dry clutches at some point, that'll probably enable a swap back to the shorter springs.
Nothing more left to do and it's Mr Dyno (-P) I'll get through the tank and that should be the running in done and the old fuel spent :)
I may have found the NLA clutch inners in a YZ250. That has some 3XV part numbers and the evolution for the NLA spring washer.
Anyway, running in - up to 10k rpm with 90% throttle. Probably don't want to push it more than that as it's running up two sizes and the ignition map is a standard 3XV8 / Zeel hybrid. It doesn't half shift mind you C:-)
I'll phone around on the dyno, key things for me is twin lamda sensors and someone who understands Zeel not to the point of setting the curve but also TPS and VAG. DoubleTake and the guy Gav used are the front runners.
Well, it's not over yet. I've been somewhat aware of a strange noise from the top end that's been increasing as I've been running in. The noise doesn't go away when the bike is warmed up and touching the upper cylinder head I can feel the vibration associated with the tapping noise.
Normally you find all sorts of amplified rattles and stuff when you put the fairings on but this isn't that.
All the bearings are new (crank, small end etc), and the bike has new rings and the PV seals were new. Squish was 0.9mm when I rebuilt it.
Obviously I'll have to take the fairings off and do some investigation.
- Compression Test
- Borescope (well USB camera) down the plug hole
- Set the PV's to 50% open in Zeel
What's the thoughts here? Snagged rings? Squished squish? Broken PVs?
Check that it's not just the lower cylinder PV rattling side to side before worrying about anything else. (-P)
Hmm.. only real suggestion is to check everything.. my first thought was the same as Warwick's, the pv's do get a bit rattly, giving a clicky-clack noise which sounds worse than it is.
Excuse my lack of memory, but what pipes are you running? sometimes having a blowy manifold joint has the same kind of noise, so have a look for any oily spurge at the manifolds as a quick clue.
Thanks both (-P) I'm encouraged but will still check everything over and hopefully setting the Zeel to a fixed 50% PV should make a change in the noise that'll point to the PV as the noise source.
I'm running Jackals, which has that flange adapter - I'll check for leaks on that also. (-P)
Simple finger pressure on the actuator end of the PV (usually the lower) while the motor is running will allow you to rule that out. Or, better still, to rule it in :))
Quote from: Warwick on January 24, 2023, 07:01:02 PM
Simple finger pressure on the actuator end of the PV (usually the lower) while the motor is running will allow you to rule that out. Or, better still, to rule it in :))
Ruling it in would be good! I'll remove the curse (the fairings) and go through it 100% at the weekend.
I suppose it's something not only I need to do before full throttle at high rpm, but it'll give me a chance to get a baseline with my gauge on the compressions now the rings should be run in.
I have recorded the rattle while riding. Does this sound bad? It's at 12:55 ish in the video, I've hopefully shared this at the right spot.
With the plastics off it sounds ok but the noise happens while riding on neutral throttle and is not dependant on gear or (from what I can hear) rpm. Very odd.
https://youtu.be/JFUuDPxrzEc?t=779 (https://youtu.be/JFUuDPxrzEc?t=779)
Ideas?
I'll be going through the bike very shortly, just encumbered by an MoT that needs doing and tyres that need replacing ???
It doesn't sound mechanical. Is it plastic panels rubbing against each other ?
Quote from: mellorp on April 12, 2023, 10:37:40 AM
It doesn't sound mechanical. Is it plastic panels rubbing against each other ?
That's definitely not mechanical, agreed. May be the toolkit in the back where the microphone was hitting the side of the glove box giving that very sharp tapping noise.
It's the exhaust sound I was focussed on, but I think we may have an idea. AndyYam came round at the weekend and we looked at it, and it may be sounding odd because I have two different length end cans on each side. Which I did for aesthetics but in retrospect that was quite stupid, and maybe why it sounds odd on neutral throttle.
Maybe inside the silencer
Quote from: rz500guy on April 12, 2023, 03:19:40 PM
Maybe inside the silencer
Maybe. I've taken all the plastics off and will secure the microphone better so it doesn't get interference, but I think the carbs are out of balance in tune - they are right needle clip & slide heights but I've not dialled in the bike with a dyno since all the performance upgrades and I'm running x2 sizes up on the mains. That coupled with some gunk in the left carb I think means at neutral throttle, both pipes are doing different things - i.e. one is powering and the other labouring.
Conclusion here is - it's not mechanical, so carry on with the work as planned (-P)
Does it occur at the same throttle position each time? From the video i think it does.
It sounds like carb set up to me. Try half a turn out on the air screw on both carbs and see if it goes away.
Dan
Quote from: maccas on April 12, 2023, 08:48:32 PM
Does it occur at the same throttle position each time? From the video i think it does.
It sounds like carb set up to me. Try half a turn out on the air screw on both carbs and see if it goes away.
Dan
That it does, I see what you mean. Thanks (-P)
All the fairings are off so I'm in a good place to start. I also have new BT090's front and rear now (-P) (-P) (-P) for a looming MoT. My hope was to ball park the carbs as suggested above and get through the MoT.
But as ever, my bike is so very special. ;D
Oh well that wasn't even the correct castled rear spindle nut, probably something off the back of a plumbers van no doubt. I'll see what I can get locally tomorrow morning. (Remember those days of going to your local bike shop to buy parts? None of this clicking online for parts to arrive from the other side of the world, oil stained cash changed hands for genuine parts :P)
One step forward and several back.
100 psi compression both sides, which is good. Tuned each of the carbs and found the left carb airjet was quite a bit out and idling lean, so that should explain the odd noise as many have suggested. Thanks all (-P)
That's the step forward and the step back is I have to get the newly built front end fixed as it's a bit bent.
So while I'm doing that, what's the best bet for steering head bearings?
Steering bearings are common sizes. Don't remember offhand, but the sizes/IDs are marked on the bearings, so check them before you destroy the lower bearing removing it if wanting to buy generics- same bearing as 4FL and etc. You'll probably find generic bearing kits on ebay etc., but I reckon it's worth buying an oe Yam lower bearing myself as that comes with the right seal for the job that properly fits the recess in the headstock etc. I generally just use a quality generic bearing for the upper race though as that one doesn't use an integral seal (It'll be the lower one that's properly goosed anyway though of course).
Do you think it will actually see the dyno in 2023? :-[
Quote from: Warwick on April 24, 2023, 10:48:28 PM
Steering bearings are common sizes. Don't remember offhand, but the sizes/IDs are marked on the bearings, so check them before you destroy the lower bearing removing it if wanting to buy generics- same bearing as 4FL and etc. You'll probably find generic bearing kits on ebay etc., but I reckon it's worth buying an oe Yam lower bearing myself as that comes with the right seal for the job that properly fits the recess in the headstock etc. I generally just use a quality generic bearing for the upper race though as that one doesn't use an integral seal (It'll be the lower one that's properly goosed anyway though of course).
Do you think it will actually see the dyno in 2023? :-[
Thanks Warwick (-P)
Yes I wonder similar, but I think "will it see a dyno?" Rather than within a time limit
So to come clean, I woke up one morning with bruised ribs and legs and the TZR had broken plastics and a bent front end. Everything was fine the day before, so riding to the MoT was the issue. I'll say more about that when the insurance co has closed it's case.
I'm taking the wheel (bent), yokes & forks (some of these are bent) to Maidstone Motoliner this weekend. As I'm taking all this off I feel it won't be unreasonable to replace the steering head bearings.
This looks like the one with the seal - https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p43734/KOYO-32006JRRS-Narrow-Section-Steering-Head-Set-Taper-Roller-Bearing-30x55x17mm-SEALED-MODEL/product_info.html (https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p43734/KOYO-32006JRRS-Narrow-Section-Steering-Head-Set-Taper-Roller-Bearing-30x55x17mm-SEALED-MODEL/product_info.html) - so I guess there's no issue getting 2x of these? I don't fancy £60 ea from Yamaha as I'm getting a little bored of these stupid prices for a Yamaha bag (with the same £15 Koyo bearing in it you can get from Simply).
Yikes! Better a busted bike than a busted body though of course, Hope all heals fast. If you've hit it hard enough to bend the wheel, forks and yokes though it might be a good idea to get the frame checked over too?
Quote from: Warwick on April 26, 2023, 10:14:50 PM
Yikes! Better a busted bike than a busted body though of course, Hope all heals fast. If you've hit it hard enough to bend the wheel, forks and yokes though it might be a good idea to get the frame checked over too?
Yes I think you're right. Just going to take the wheel, forks and yokes to be checked for now. If it's a total loss then I will be on the Ducati this summer and for a while more no doubt.
One frame part that is broken is the lock stop (I think I did this when undoing the top yoke - should have used impact rather than long lever) :-\
I did have to scratch my head on how to get the front end totally off. Here's what I came up with. C:-)
That set-up should be fine so long as the straps are strong. I just put it up on the Abba stand with a suitable wooden block under the motor to take the front end out myself (don't have the Abba front lifter add-on). That's easiest with at least the the upper cyl pipe off though. Good luck at the straighteners. (-P)
Is there not a place in the frame to put a bar through? And not sure what you were talking about with bruised rib. Sounded like you crashed the scooter. The tab that broke was probably from the crash. Not sure what you needed a lever for on the top yoke. Glad you are just sore. Inquiring minds want to know what happened. Sounds like lost the front and hit a curb. Looks like your videos always show you in full gear. If so what gloves and boots. I always ask since I race and want to know how well safety gear performs. Heal up and now you have a bigger project.
Man what a bummer :'( Hope you're OK!
Any pics of the bent bits?
Quote from: rz500guy on April 27, 2023, 04:13:24 PM
Is there not a place in the frame to put a bar through? And not sure what you were talking about with bruised rib. Sounded like you crashed the scooter. The tab that broke was probably from the crash. Not sure what you needed a lever for on the top yoke. Glad you are just sore. Inquiring minds want to know what happened. Sounds like lost the front and hit a curb. Looks like your videos always show you in full gear. If so what gloves and boots. I always ask since I race and want to know how well safety gear performs. Heal up and now you have a bigger project.
I lost the rear at 3,000 rpm in first gear with a whiff of gentle acceleration on a change of surface from normal to no grip as I was turning out of a side road. Slid out 90 degrees to the road, got kicked out the seat but stayed on, then I was basically a passenger as it slid the other way and gripped again sending me into the oncoming traffic.
RST leathers and alpine stars boots & gloves.
I'm pretty sure I broke that lug off taking the top yoke bolt off as it was on the floor in the garage. Quite probably weakened in the crash though.
Quote from: ybk on April 27, 2023, 10:31:35 PM
Man what a bummer :'( Hope you're OK!
Any pics of the bent bits?
Bruises on the legs and thighs have gone down mostly. Still hurts quite a bit of the right side ribs where I cleaved the tank in my dismount. That's been I week but bruised or cracked there's nothing that can be done so just have to take it easy for a while. I hope to be better before the bike is!
I'll get into the garage and take some pics. Going to need ideas on how to fix that frame lug. Pretty sure it's an MoT failure not to have working lock stops
Hi Rich. All my best wishes and prayers for your recovery.
Important tip for F'd up ribs. "DON'T SNEEZE."
I have an idea for your steering stops. Will send pics, tomorrow. All that is required is drill, tap and stainless bolt.
Hope you have good (opiate) pain meds.
Steve
Quote from: Steveog on April 28, 2023, 01:22:36 AM
Hi Rich. All my best wishes and prayers for your recovery.
Important tip for F'd up ribs. "DON'T SNEEZE."
I have an idea for your steering stops. Will send pics, tomorrow. All that is required is drill, tap and stainless bolt.
Hope you have good (opiate) pain meds.
Steve
Thanks Steve
You're 100% right about the sneezes. I adopt a defensive crunch but still hurts like hell.
Glad to hear you have some ideas (-P)
I'll post up pics of the damage
Here's the damage (to the bike)
Lug broken off the frame
Forks/yokes bent
Wheel bent and dented
Gear lever broken
That is a serious bummer. I hope you heal up quickly and completely. Keep a pillow for the sneezing or laughing. I have had three incident due to track surface and rear tire grip. Two lowsides and one high side. One of the rear loss was fuel fitting fell out of petcock and filled belly pan. But glad you were wearing good gear or could of been way way worse. I feel naked with out my suit and air bag. Good equipment is literally a life saver. It is the road riding that the gear helps with but cars, curbs, and poles, a different story. I would think a welder can fix the stop. I broke both of my 500 lower triple. Just disconnect the electronics I would think. The wheel is minor and can be straightened. Same happened on the 500. That lower bracket is a bit different. Not sure even if it is straightened and works that it would not be fatigued. The forks are still straight? The Triples you should be able to locate them somewhere on ebay. Keep us updated on you recovery and the bike. I am a month out on my last high side and back in pool and on bicycle. The TZ is back together and going out for engine break in this weekend. I know you are bummed but you will get over it and be back and going soon.
At least the gear lever is an easy fix. These (or similar) work well (file flat, drill though and loctite it on. Job's a good 'un) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133754733063?hash=item1f24674207:g:TBgAAOSwQX9gloQf&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Khr3irZw8NOZOW5WmNoRx%2ByWPX4gj%2BOUcQRWb%2BwL2Dj8xvC%2BKTCPggh6u46Mm81qYqJOBzDy93cG5KooCmhfWIx%2FDhvjJYriDtU%2F9bkrkvaMYlORBVobrozKMCepjSy3EQEKOx9J2i2a7Tm%2B%2FfH8g3z5I3Ajr2udT%2Bck%2B0%2FxOFFIbYEzrFfk6XaW3yhRtl4VIJYzFE3wFdDb7C2KxzqWxqdwTthu%2Fw5jR%2BHRp9H4j0PPdRn422RX29HmVlJmvxD2f%2B4fudxPCTT62VxgzAfWvYGtTV2yFTZxDCN8UhxAxf2%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8qVtIX5YQ
Quote from: rz500guy on April 28, 2023, 04:47:11 PM
That is a serious bummer. I hope you heal up quickly and completely. Keep a pillow for the sneezing or laughing. I have had three incident due to track surface and rear tire grip. Two lowsides and one high side. One of the rear loss was fuel fitting fell out of petcock and filled belly pan. But glad you were wearing good gear or could of been way way worse. I feel naked with out my suit and air bag. Good equipment is literally a life saver. It is the road riding that the gear helps with but cars, curbs, and poles, a different story. I would think a welder can fix the stop. I broke both of my 500 lower triple. Just disconnect the electronics I would think. The wheel is minor and can be straightened. Same happened on the 500. That lower bracket is a bit different. Not sure even if it is straightened and works that it would not be fatigued. The forks are still straight? The Triples you should be able to locate them somewhere on ebay. Keep us updated on you recovery and the bike. I am a month out on my last high side and back in pool and on bicycle. The TZ is back together and going out for engine break in this weekend. I know you are bummed but you will get over it and be back and going soon.
Thanks man. It was the first time I'd ridden with the boots & gloves (got them the weekend before). Luckily there's no damage to them!
I kind of think the forks are straight, but it's too hard to tell as I don't have V blocks or a dial gauge. I'm taking all the bent bits to a specialist tomorrow and they should be able to tell me what's salvageable.
Quote from: Warwick on April 28, 2023, 04:53:02 PM
At least the gear lever is an easy fix. These (or similar) work well (file flat, drill though and loctite it on. Job's a good 'un) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133754733063?hash=item1f24674207:g:TBgAAOSwQX9gloQf&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Khr3irZw8NOZOW5WmNoRx%2ByWPX4gj%2BOUcQRWb%2BwL2Dj8xvC%2BKTCPggh6u46Mm81qYqJOBzDy93cG5KooCmhfWIx%2FDhvjJYriDtU%2F9bkrkvaMYlORBVobrozKMCepjSy3EQEKOx9J2i2a7Tm%2B%2FfH8g3z5I3Ajr2udT%2Bck%2B0%2FxOFFIbYEzrFfk6XaW3yhRtl4VIJYzFE3wFdDb7C2KxzqWxqdwTthu%2Fw5jR%2BHRp9H4j0PPdRn422RX29HmVlJmvxD2f%2B4fudxPCTT62VxgzAfWvYGtTV2yFTZxDCN8UhxAxf2%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8qVtIX5YQ
I got some good/suprising news on the gear level - you can still buy them from Yamaha(!!!) and they have over 7,000 in stock(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
£65 from Webbs with the 10% forum discount :D
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on April 28, 2023, 09:45:48 AM
Quote from: Steveog on April 28, 2023, 01:22:36 AM
Hi Rich. All my best wishes and prayers for your recovery.
Important tip for F'd up ribs. "DON'T SNEEZE."
I have an idea for your steering stops. Will send pics, tomorrow. All that is required is drill, tap and stainless bolt.
Hope you have good (opiate) pain meds.
Steve
Thanks Steve
You're 100% right about the sneezes. I adopt a defensive crunch but still hurts like hell.
Glad to hear you have some ideas (-P)
I'll post up pics of the damage
Pressure on above your upper lip just under the nose can prevent you from sneezing. Sounds mad but I used it alot when I had pulled intercostal muscles. Facing down whilst you do that also helps.
EDIT: Just to add that I've been chatting to Rich on WhatsApp recently so not glossing over the incident in some cold hearted way ;D
Andy - Great tip. Bruised, cracked and broken ribs are all too familiar for those of us on two wheels. The pain can be among most memorable, as it may occur with every breath.
Rich - Sorry I didn't get the pics, but after seeing your damage, welding up a solution might work better than my drill/tap/bolt idea.
Good luck.
Steve
Quote from: AndyYam on May 01, 2023, 01:01:48 AM
Pressure on above your upper lip just under the nose can prevent you from sneezing. Sounds mad but I used it alot when I had pulled intercostal muscles. Facing down whilst you do that also helps.
EDIT: Just to add that I've been chatting to Rich on WhatsApp recently so not glossing over the incident in some cold hearted way ;D
This I will try! Hayfever season is quite annoying right now. Thanks Andy :)
Quote from: Steveog on May 01, 2023, 01:11:21 AM
Andy - Great tip. Bruised, cracked and broken ribs are all too familiar for those of us on two wheels. The pain can be among most memorable, as it may occur with every breath.
Rich - Sorry I didn't get the pics, but after seeing your damage, welding up a solution might work better than my drill/tap/bolt idea.
Good luck.
Steve
Your initial idea may still work Steve - I found the lug on the garage floor after tidying up !!!! I'll take the front cage off and post some pics! Thanks!
Took the bits to Maidstone Motorliner and they said;
Front wheel BENT
Front disc BENT
Yokes BENT
Both forks BENT
(Forgot to ask about the front spindle, but they have that too)
They seemed confident they get everything straight but I guess the question is - if anything gets cracked while being straightened, which is a goodness knows thing. I'm pretty certain they are the best place for whatever success can be made.
While not being able to ride, I'm playing with cameras and editing to keep me amused, and here's the TZR coming apart and going to Maidstone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNdPSuPMujw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNdPSuPMujw)
As an aside to the bike, I had an off at Oulton Park. My riding kit was a bit old. I decided rather than broken and bruised body parts I bought some very expensive gloves (eye wateringly expensive) an airbag 1 piece race suit and an air bag road jacket. My thinking is I'd buy an SP crank for £1,000 at the drop of a hat, so I needed to spend proportionally on my personal protection.
At 62, I don't bounce like I did when I was 18. In fact I don't bounce as well as when I was 50. I even creak getting off the sofa !!!!
Quote from: mellorp on May 01, 2023, 01:55:38 PM
As an aside to the bike, I had an off at Oulton Park. My riding kit was a bit old. I decided rather than broken and bruised body parts I bought some very expensive gloves (eye wateringly expensive) an airbag 1 piece race suit and an air bag road jacket. My thinking is I'd buy an SP crank for £1,000 at the drop of a hat, so I needed to spend proportionally on my personal protection.
At 62, I don't bounce like I did when I was 18. In fact I don't bounce as well as when I was 50. I even creak getting off the sofa !!!!
You're spot on Phil. An airbag suit may have saved my ribs. Best we use our years to choose wisely about what we take from the past (2 strokes) and what we choose from the present (airbags, tyres etc)
I did a day at Ron Haslams race school - and my boys criticised my 90's high torso style, despite laying waste to knee sliders left and right. My thoughts were "If I hang off, I might never get back on"
Sorry about all the parts. Welding the tab is proper way. Make some wooden v blocks to check the forks yourself. I would think as long as you have a good flat surface. We all do not have a 4 foot steel surface that was machined. It will at least give you an idea of how the parts are. A cheap dial gauge holder and gauge will be used for other thing. Wheel will be easy to fix.
And to agree with Mellorp, gear, gear, gear. I am going to keep racing until I feel unsafe to my fellow riders and I decided gear is cheap. It is the other parts of the body such as muscles and things I think about. Some ligaments can be a bother forever. I see too many street riders with nothing on and I mean helmets or boots. Especially the bad ass Harley cruiser riders. My last crash if air bag would of deployed would of left me with a bruised pinky and little toe. By my end of month for next race I will have 2 Tech Ten air bag suits in case of a failure, I use a Taichi suit and their best gloves, Gaerne boot with a set of Alpinestar GP tech boot as backup, and a Bell Carbon Fiber helmet with triple layer impact protection. The Taichi gloves are going to the my repair place to have the little pinky sewed to adjoining finger. I have had numerous incident but walk away each time. Most any incident on the street with improper gear never ends well. SOAP BOX OVER
Quote from: rz500guy on May 01, 2023, 04:19:30 PM
Sorry about all the parts. Welding the tab is proper way. Make some wooden v blocks to check the forks yourself. I would think as long as you have a good flat surface. We all do not have a 4 foot steel surface that was machined. It will at least give you an idea of how the parts are. A cheap dial gauge holder and gauge will be used for other thing. Wheel will be easy to fix.
And to agree with Mellorp, gear, gear, gear. I am going to keep racing until I feel unsafe to my fellow riders and I decided gear is cheap. It is the other parts of the body such as muscles and things I think about. Some ligaments can be a bother forever. I see too many street riders with nothing on and I mean helmets or boots. Especially the bad ass Harley cruiser riders. My last crash if air bag would of deployed would of left me with a bruised pinky and little toe. By my end of month for next race I will have 2 Tech Ten air bag suits in case of a failure, I use a Taichi suit and their best gloves, Gaerne boot with a set of Alpinestar GP tech boot as backup, and a Bell Carbon Fiber helmet with triple layer impact protection. The Taichi gloves are going to the my repair place to have the little pinky sewed to adjoining finger. I have had numerous incident but walk away each time. Most any incident on the street with improper gear never ends well. SOAP BOX OVER
Soap box welcome! We worry about NLA parts but the rider is the most valuable NLA part ;D
Like it.
I just want to run this by you guys. I'm not doing anything yet. The broken lug has been ripped and torn off the frame. It's not a good fit anymore. I have two schools of thought.
Plan A) - Clean all the lug and frame up with acetone and JB Weld the lug back on. Leave it a week then hit it with a hammer and see if it falls off.
Plan B) - Drill and tap the lower instrument cage mount from below parallel with the headstock. Tap it and use an M6 insert in there. Use the same drill to go through the broken lug. Use a machine screw, as a bolt, to bolt the lug to the frame. Red Loctite / Fill up everything with JB Weld.
Personally I'd go for Plan C. Get the frame checked over properly first. If it's not bent, have the lockstop welded back on properly by a pro - not sure what a MOT man would make of a bodged on lockstop? If it is bent, investigate the possibility of straightening before considering anything else. (-P)
Quote from: Warwick on May 02, 2023, 11:18:26 PM
Personally I'd go for Plan C. Get the frame checked over properly first. If it's not bent, have the lockstop welded back on properly by a pro - not sure what a MOT man would make of a bodged on lockstop? If it is bent, investigate the possibility of straightening before considering anything else. (-P)
Right - Getting the frame checked today. (-P)
I'll call round the mobile welders if all checks out (no point doing that if I need to move the carcass to a shop to be straightened)
Weld it and paint only option. Finish it with a dremel. If the forks are straight and the wheel and disc took the brunt of the hit I would not be greatly concerned with the frame. That little stop looked fragile anyway. Did the forks or bars hit the tank? You are not going to be circuit racing this so you will never notice even if it is tweaked. Here in the US I know of one shop on the east coast that checks frames. You have to schedules weeks out and what if they do not have your bike in their database. I guess they just compare one side to another. You have more race teams closer to you so you might have options but that is a special piece of equipment and some expertise to check a frame. Then what do you do if it a little tweaked, trash it? Many a bike has had the same type crash and they are repaired and rode into the sunset. Fix it and enjoy it.
What direction was the impact to the bike? Have you inspected all the various welds on the frame for a potential crack? That might save you time before having someone measure it?
Sound like the wheel took a glancing blow on the curb. Heal up and get on with the repairs. By the way my 3MA is heading to California today
Easiest to show than explain...
Here's a video of the crash - https://youtu.be/Kfgx_rPaYH8 (https://youtu.be/Kfgx_rPaYH8)
Wow. Takes a good person to show and ask about an incident like this. Lucky man. Looked like you got knocked out for a while. How long was it before you got up and when did you realize what condition you were in? How cold was it when you were out. There will be a lot of answers and let us all keep it friendly. I can not believe the two people just walking down the street oblivious to what just happened.
Just from my short watch it looked spinning before that area of smooth concrete and then grabbed. You had oil or water on the tire or ran over water or something before then. I am surprised the rear kicked up in the air so much when it grabbed at that speed also. Count your blessing you were not in the windshield of that car. Is the rear shock standard and was it set up for you. No matter what tire you had a bit of water would have probably done the same thing.
Thanks for sharing and all I can say is thank goodness you had decent gear on. I do not think an air bag would have deployed in that incident. I am going to ask my Alpinestar tech if you do not mind me sharing. Also send it to a few of my instructors. Will watch again and see if notice anything else and again I am glad you are on the mend.
Just watched again. Looked like a recent patch was done on the road where it spun up. Probably slick as could be with oil coming out. Especially with a bit of water the oil will be on the surface. Let us see what others think
Quote from: rz500guy on May 05, 2023, 03:48:32 PM
Wow. Takes a good person to show and ask about an incident like this. Lucky man. Looked like you got knocked out for a while. How long was it before you got up and when did you realize what condition you were in? How cold was it when you were out. There will be a lot of answers and let us all keep it friendly.
Just from my short watch it looked spinning before that area of smooth concrete and then grabbed. You had oil or water on the tire or ran over water or something before then. I am surprised the rear kicked up in the air so much when it grabbed at that speed also. Count your blessing you were not in the windshield of that car. Is the rear shock standard and was it set up for you. No matter what tire you had a bit of water would have probably done the same thing.
Thanks for sharing and all I can say is thank goodness you had decent gear on. I do not think an air bag would have deployed in that incident. I am going to ask my Alpinestar tech if you do not mind me sharing. Also send it to a few of my instructors. Will watch again and see if notice anything else and again I am glad you are on the mend.
It was about 50F out, and there was four people on the scene in about 20 seconds getting me on my feet, I'd rather have sat in the road for 5 mins! I think I shut the throttle off (can't really remeber) which is why the tyre was able to grip? You make a good point, the tyre was grippy to get that effect, so being new wasn't a big factor.
Quite right I was lucky on the timing, had that oncoming car been a bit further down the road I would have met the front of it rather than the side. I shudder to think.
The rear shock is a rebuilt SP one, at standard compression and rebound (I'm 75kg so it should be good for road riding).
I would be really interested in if an airbag would have gone off. My ribcage hit the tank on my way off the bike so I'm guessing it'd have to be a bike signalled airbag rather than a stand alone suit activated one?? Please share and I'd be interested in the conclusions from the techs (-P)
Quote from: rz500guy on May 05, 2023, 04:02:15 PM
Just watched again. Looked like a recent patch was done on the road where it spun up. Probably slick as could be with oil coming out. Especially with a bit of water the oil will be on the surface. Let us see what others think
Yes, that's something I handn't considered. I thought it was going from new to smooth tarmac.
I'm glad I got the footage from the car behind in this. It shows I waited until there was a huge gap in the traffic, enough for the car behind to get out also!
I hope by sharing I not only explain the cause of the damage for fixing the bike, but also get some insights on how this happened.
Nasty ! I ran the video at .25 speed and looks like you're rear tyre has a shiny patch like you had stopped on some fluid at the junction ?
Quote from: oldiggy on May 05, 2023, 07:03:33 PM
Nasty ! I ran the video at .25 speed and looks like you're rear tyre has a shiny patch like you had stopped on some fluid at the junction ?
That may be the new tyre but contaminants seems to be a thing I've overlooked. It was a dry morning and about 10 degrees and I didn't see any water / oil or smell any diesel
With such low revs and throttle load I think I'd be suspecting something on the tyre if nothing really obvious on the road. It looked dry, so I think only gravel might be a road surface possibility, perhaps? But could the carbs have been overflowing a bit perhaps? Or some other kind of leak from the bike itself maybe? Really weird for it to let go like that without soime kind of lubricating help?
Nasty little off whatever the cause. Hope you and the bike heal well. (-P)
Dude so sorry, just read thread, big bummer. Watched crash vid, I've seen this before looks to me like cold tyres on bad road surface.....
Wow, that is a comprehensive crash analysis! Hope you're on the mend already :)
Had a similar incident with a new tyre on a RG250 once (minus the oncoming car..). Just a normal turn, even on-camber and just let go and gripped again in a similar way. My vote is new tyre related perhaps in combination with some gravel?
Quote from: Warwick on May 06, 2023, 12:23:29 AM
With such low revs and throttle load I think I'd be suspecting something on the tyre if nothing really obvious on the road. It looked dry, so I think only gravel might be a road surface possibility, perhaps? But could the carbs have been overflowing a bit perhaps? Or some other kind of leak from the bike itself maybe? Really weird for it to let go like that without soime kind of lubricating help?
Nasty little off whatever the cause. Hope you and the bike heal well. (-P)
Everything on the bike was tight as, in fact I'd go so far as to say... it was finished ::)
The grey tarmac is much smoother than the black tarmac, I did some tests using my road car and I can light up the rears on that bit but not before. May have been something on the road but it's more slippery on that section too. Thanks for the good wishes - bike parts are on order and me parts are being fixed for free (well, more time needed on the cracked ribs!)
Quote from: jamietzr250r on May 06, 2023, 01:15:34 AM
Dude so sorry, just read thread, big bummer. Watched crash vid, I've seen this before looks to me like cold tyres on bad road surface.....
Thanks Jamie & thanks for the call, catch up soon mate (-P)
Quote from: ybk on May 06, 2023, 03:42:24 AM
Wow, that is a comprehensive crash analysis! Hope you're on the mend already :)
Had a similar incident with a new tyre on a RG250 once (minus the oncoming car..). Just a normal turn, even on-camber and just let go and gripped again in a similar way. My vote is new tyre related perhaps in combination with some gravel?
Getting better, at least the bruising is gone now so I can sleep!!
I think the thoughts here are right, it's a combination of the low grip section, new tyre, cold tyre and bad luck.
Did you manage to save the RG? I think given another 6-10ft width I'd have been ok and saved mine.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on May 06, 2023, 05:04:09 PM
Did you manage to save the RG? I think given another 6-10ft width I'd have been ok and saved mine.
:)) hehe thankfully yes, wasn't my bike so relief was felt! If I remember(I don't) then I usually roughen new tyres with some 80 grit. Yep I reckon if it weren't for the oncoming car you would have recovered that one :'(
Bummer heal up bikes are replaceable fixable you aren't so much. It's when you hit the car is when you hurt yourself.
Cold Tyre looks like it was morning? Maybe some moisture in the air still. Could have been some dew on the road surface cold pavement.
This is where all my years of dirt biking would have paid off. You get real used to tyres breaking traction. Your tyre spinning up feeling. Hard Braking and handle bars swapping. Throttle control. Really helps you develop the feel for what the bike is doing. Why all the top motogp guys cross train with it.
I "might" have been able to stop it with a foot dab with the right foot. Right after the tyre spun let off the gas and hit the front break. Might have dropped the bike though. But probably not hit the car.
Looks like when the tyre broke traction then hooked back up. You whiskey throttled when your balance was thrown off and went into the car.
Quote from: ybk on May 07, 2023, 05:52:08 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on May 06, 2023, 05:04:09 PM
Did you manage to save the RG? I think given another 6-10ft width I'd have been ok and saved mine.
:)) hehe thankfully yes, wasn't my bike so relief was felt! If I remember(I don't) then I usually roughen new tyres with some 80 grit. Yep I reckon if it weren't for the oncoming car you would have recovered that one :'(
Getting those tyres pre-scrubbed is something I'd never heard of apart from once the Ducati dealer did that on my Multistrada. I'll be doing that from now on just to add a margin of safety. (-P)
Quote from: SeaR1ck on May 07, 2023, 04:10:45 PM
Bummer heal up bikes are replaceable fixable you aren't so much. It's when you hit the car is when you hurt yourself.
Cold Tyre looks like it was morning? Maybe some moisture in the air still. Could have been some dew on the road surface cold pavement.
This is where all my years of dirt biking would have paid off. You get real used to tyres breaking traction. Your tyre spinning up feeling. Hard Braking and handle bars swapping. Throttle control. Really helps you develop the feel for what the bike is doing. Why all the top motogp guys cross train with it.
I "might" have been able to stop it with a foot dab with the right foot. Right after the tyre spun let off the gas and hit the front break. Might have dropped the bike though. But probably not hit the car.
Looks like when the tyre broke traction then hooked back up. You whiskey throttled when your balance was thrown off and went into the car.
I did the ribs coming off the bike when I hit the car. I nailed the tank on the way off. I thought it was just bruised ribs so have carried on doing as usual but this weekend they have got worse so must be cracked and I'll need to do the 6 week rest thing.
Cold tyre seems to be a big pointer here, as ambient was 50F, and all the other rides in the video are the same distance from my house, but undoubtedly warmer ambient and I would not have been crawling around slow with used tyres, so getting heat into them would have been more likely. The only exception was the run with my son's Bandit. That had new tyres on and the turn is the same distance from where I started in all clips.
I'm pretty sure I was neutral or off gas during the slide and after, I deduced this from the RPM on the rider cam at this point in the video https://youtu.be/Kfgx_rPaYH8?t=198 (https://youtu.be/Kfgx_rPaYH8?t=198). After that I was either getting pinged out the seat (naturally closing the throttle at that angle) or I was on the front brake. Difficult to see and harder to remember.
One thing that would have made a significant difference though is riding dirt bikes. You're spot on correct there that this may be the missing piece in my experience. I've never drifted the rear, or needed to control that as a consequence. Had I got that off road experience I may have been able to collect it earlier in the initial slide. I doubt the missus will see this as a compelling argument to get a CRF mind you ;D
I have a replacement nose cone to fit & paint. Massive thanks to Gav, basically the forums arms dealer of TZR parts, for finding this in Japan and navigating the purchase and delivery. Thanks fella, really appreciated.
I also have the replacement gear lever brand new from Yamaha (taking the 10% forum discount) from Andy at Webbs. Don't panic buy one of these, there's 7,499 still in stock in Japan!!!
Lastly Maidstone Motoliner have done a brilliant job on the front end. They straightened the following
Front wheel
Front disc
Front wheel spindle
Both forks
Both yokes
The yokes and wheel were most out apparently, and MM touched up the paint on the forks and wheel plus everything they stripped to go into jigs they reassembled. All of this £350 plus VAT which I think is a bloody bargain considering the alternatives.
I can do light work on the bike but without a bench things will have to wait a while til the ribs can handle all the crawling around. This bike will be finished, I am determined
Just home and saw where someone slowed video down. I forgot all about that. After watching it slower looks like you followed the cut in the asphalt all the way to where it went to a vee. Appeared to be water in the entire crack and even more in the vee. Was water as most think that started the slide. Second thing is the rear shock. Looks to me your spring is soft and your rebound is set to hard or fast. That rear squatted a lot, I mean all the way down, and in a split second it went fully extended. You were just a passenger at that point. At that speed to have the rear wheel come all the way off the ground seem a bit much. Then when it came down the second time it started all over again. It compressed all the way down and went straight back up taking you out of the seat. You need to show that video to a good local suspension guy close to you. Someone that does race bike stuff. I just sent video to one of my suspension guys. My normal race guy opens at 10AM. Too my novice opinion, your spring is too light with too much preload on it and your rebound is set way, way too fast. I will tell you how to check the spring it pretty easily and you will need assistance or other eyes for the rebound check.
Quote from: rz500guy on May 08, 2023, 04:06:23 PM
Just home and saw where someone slowed video down. I forgot all about that. After watching it slower looks like you followed the cut in the asphalt all the way to where it went to a vee. Appeared to be water in the entire crack and even more in the vee. Was water as most think that started the slide. Second thing is the rear shock. Looks to me your spring is soft and your rebound is set to hard or fast. That rear squatted a lot, I mean all the way down, and in a split second it went fully extended. You were just a passenger at that point. At that speed to have the rear wheel come all the way off the ground seem a bit much. Then when it came down the second time it started all over again. It compressed all the way down and went straight back up taking you out of the seat. You need to show that video to a good local suspension guy close to you. Someone that does race bike stuff. I just sent video to one of my suspension guys. My normal race guy opens at 10AM. Too my novice opinion, your spring is too light with too much preload on it and your rebound is set way, way too fast. I will tell you how to check the spring it pretty easily and you will need assistance or other eyes for the rebound check.
Thanks! I'd be good to get input from the suspension guys & also the alpine star contact on the airbag.
Alpinestars says it might of but the vest will deploy in 20 to 40 milliseconds. Once your shoulders were all crossed I think it would of deployed. A tether system would have done no good because you were still with bike on impact. Suspension guy agreed on the spring but said more than likely the shock was already blown because you had no compression or rebound dampening. This could be nitrogen charge or seal issue. You were riding on the spring.
Finally something I know a little about. We all take for granted the shock and forks on our bikes. Regular service and basic setup is often neglected. I preach this from experience. Had a rebound orifice get plugged with debris from the internal bumper breaking down. The small particles plugged the orifice so as I road at the track, every bump made the bike go lower and lower. Called packing. Till I finally had no rear suspension travel left, hit a bump mid corner and ejected me and the bike into space, Was seriously a bad bad crash. It was a defect in the bumper material and Ohlins and everyone had the same issue at the time. So i taght myself about suspension and service of it.
You should be able to have the bike sitting level and if spring is ok you should be able to lift the bike so rear suspension is fully extended and it should come back on its own weight 5 to 10 millimeters. You should be able to feel it come up that much just lifting it. If it does not sag or drop on its own weight you have too much preload on the spring. It needs some free sag.
Then with the help of someone you need to lift up completely on the rear so shock is fully extended or wheel of the ground. You can lean it on the side stand.Find a vertical point to measure from the axle and a fixed point on the seat or bodywork. Make sure you do the same spot and starting point. I use a piece of blue tape and a ink pen mark. Easiest way is to pull the bike up and use a measurement like 400 mm so your subtraction numbers are easier and that is where you tape would be applied and mark. How ever you do it, do it accurately and consistently to same point.
Now sit on the bike in gear and riding position and have a friend push down on the rear and let it rise up slowly. Stay seated and let them measure to the same two points. Write that measurement down L1. Stay on bike same position now your buddy will lift up on the rear and let it come down slowly. Take that measurement L2. Take those two measurements and add them together then divide by two. L1 + L2 = X divide by 2. The reason for two measurements is in case you have sticking suspension components. The higher the difference between those measurements the more stiction you have in the linkage, swingarm, and shock. Say that final number might be 350 MM. Subtract that from the original measurement you took earlier. Say 400 - 350 = 50. That is your rider sag. You should be looking at 35 or so.
If it is more than that you need to add preload. Less than that take preload out. Adjust to get near 35. Hear is where the spring comes in. If after you add preload to the spring to get to the number you need you recheck the free sag. If the bike no longer has free sag the spring is wrong for you and the bike. If you have to take preload out and then you check free sag and it is too much, mor than 5 to 10 mm, wrong spring again
REBOUND The correct way to check this is knowing you have the correct spring first. It can be checked though. With assistance again, let someone push firmly down on the rear of the bike. Then they need to release it and see how quickly it come up. Best case is within one second. It should not come up quickly and then drop back down. If it does not enough rebound dampening. Remember one second rule. If bounce after coming up add rebound. If it comes up slowly and stops then take rebound out and recheck. A good way to feel how the nitrogen charge is to me is how well you feel the clicks on rebound adjustment. If you just feel them sort of click with no definite sound or feel the nitrogen charge is blown or low. A properly charged and working shock will have an audible click as you adjust rebound. Especially when you are getting to the stiffer settings.
Thanks RZ. I'll have the bike able to be measured when it's all back together and I'll run though all of these. (-P) The forks and shock have been rebuilt <50 miles ago so I should be able to make progress.
In other news the aluminium welding is due to be done on Tuesday. Then I can start getting things back on.
After countless failed calls and unreturned messages to MANY other mobile welders, I found one that not only able to communicate but actually showed up on the day they said they would. (-P)
Job done.
Nice! Tough to get help sometimes, especially for small once-off jobs.. :(
What's next on the to do list?
Quote from: ybk on May 16, 2023, 11:39:25 PM
Nice! Tough to get help sometimes, especially for small once-off jobs.. :(
What's next on the to do list?
1. Make a list ;)
Good point... um... this is going to help me remember, and get the ordering right!
Plastic weld one lug on the headlight
Bend the instrument cage back to shape (just the indicator arm was a bit squished)
Prep & paint that cage, the new fairing/mirror bracket, lockstop & headstock touch up paint
Get the front wheel rebalanced
Plug in the Zeel, battery, Regulator
Refit the rear plastics
Fit the new gear lever
Fit the headstock bearings
Fit the yokes, load the headstock bearings
Fit the forks, ciipons
Fit the front wheel, callipers, front mudguard, speedo drive
Plug in the instruments, zeel switches & shift light, speedo cable
Fit the instrument cage
Fit the headlight & new nosecone
Test fit indicators
Test fit V piece & side fairings
Modify nosecone as required
Take off the indicators, fairings, headlight and get the nosecone painted to match the old one
Put all the nosecone and headlight and front indicators back on
Get an MoT
Dyno it O0
Put the side and V-piece back on
Ride the blessed thing for a change!!!
I think. ::)
Well prompted (-P) Thanks
Really impressive progress on the repairs Rich (-P)
The speed its progressing it looks like the bike will be ready before your bruises have gone. Loving the list, looks like a busy weekend approaching. :)
Quote from: thump566 on May 17, 2023, 08:19:06 AM
Really impressive progress on the repairs Rich (-P)
The speed its progressing it looks like the bike will be ready before your bruises have gone. Loving the list, looks like a busy weekend approaching. :)
Thanks Ron!
I have another item on the list, replace the radiator. It was on a wish list, as it's bent up a little. It's not leaking but I was looking over the frame in detail last night, checking for cracks of anything, and found the RHS rad bolt has snapped in the frame, quite far down. As there's a bargain second hand rad via Gav, now's the time.
I should expect there will be more tasks to add to the list.
Bugger, didnt realise it was a bargain, should've charged you more! Lol. ::)
Quote from: bulldogboy on May 18, 2023, 12:28:15 PM
Bugger, didnt realise it was a bargain, should've charged you more! Lol. ::)
I got a quote for the paint on the nose cone - £600.
Next to that anything's a bargain ?:-|
Wrap!
DIY ?
It's a tricky paint scheme
All black first, then the white stripes, then the red fade on black between the white stripes, then clear coat, ive got a compressor and spray gun if you want to borrow them?
That price of £600 is a right pisstake you can get a whole Chinese set for £350 + shipping
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on May 16, 2023, 11:53:22 PM
Quote from: ybk on May 16, 2023, 11:39:25 PM
Nice! Tough to get help sometimes, especially for small once-off jobs.. :(
What's next on the to do list?
1. Make a list ;)
Good point... um... this is going to help me remember, and get the ordering right!
Plastic weld one lug on the headlight
Bend the instrument cage back to shape (just the indicator arm was a bit squished)
Prep & paint that cage, the new fairing/mirror bracket, lockstop & headstock touch up paint
Get the front wheel rebalanced
Plug in the Zeel, battery, Regulator
Refit the rear plastics
Fit the new gear lever
Fit the headstock bearings
Fit the yokes, load the headstock bearings
Fit the forks, ciipons
Fit the front wheel, callipers, front mudguard, speedo drive
Plug in the instruments, zeel switches & shift light, speedo cable
Fit the instrument cage
Fit the headlight & new nosecone
Test fit indicators
Test fit V piece & side fairings
Modify nosecone as required
Take off the indicators, fairings, headlight and get the nosecone painted to match the old one
Put all the nosecone and headlight and front indicators back on
Get an MoT
Dyno it O0
Put the side and V-piece back on
Ride the blessed thing for a change!!!
I think. ::)
Well prompted (-P) Thanks
Had some fun with that broken bolt ::) The list is long but I'm getting through it... https://youtu.be/7pHin8WcjTc (https://youtu.be/7pHin8WcjTc)
I think I'll put the front end back on so I can sort the plastics and plus I really need my ladder back
Glad I didn't listen to this [deleted] idiot. "If you ride highways you want your steering head bearings tighter" - plank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awDs4ZaFcdc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awDs4ZaFcdc)
Anyway... making progress...
Well, here's the situation.... the frame is not at all twisted (I'd measured / compared sides), but it's perfectly bent at the headstock.
Rake is now 22.5 degrees (I think it should be 25 degrees). If I'm wrong on that could someone let me know?
I have spoken to Maidstone Motoliner and they can fix it, but I have to strip the bike down to a roller with engine. All plastics / rubbers (aside from tyres) / electrics off. This will take a while - but it'll be cheaper and less work than the alternative, that is to transplant to a new frame. Plus I don't have the transfers and stuff that come with that.
I'll post back wintertime when I start the work in earnest. For now, I just need to go riding, I miss that!
How did you measure the rake angle?
Dan
Stock is 24 degrees I think? Like Dan suggests, check that they are measuring accurately before assuming it's off maybe?
+1. A TZR 3xv should be 24 degrees at the headstock.
A replacement frame would be hard to find and expensive. Fixing your existing frame might be the best solution.
Good Luck.
Steve
Were the forks fully extended?
How much of the fork outer is sticking out the top of the yokes?
Was the rear suspension fully extended?
Where was the rear wheel adjuster in it's travel?
Are the tyres the correct size?
Did the bike have all its fluids on board? Full tank of fuel or empty?
All of the above change the rake angle, so it's not a straight forward measurement. Also, do we know that the yamaha quoted rake angle is for fully extended suspension? Or under the bikes own weight? With fluids or without?
I think your best bet is to compare to another 3XV when the suspension is compressed by the same amount.
What method did you use to generate the angle?
Dan
Quote from: Warwick on June 28, 2023, 10:37:08 PM
Stock is 24 degrees I think? Like Dan suggests, check that they are measuring accurately before assuming it's off maybe?
Quote from: Steveog on June 29, 2023, 03:05:07 AM
+1. A TZR 3xv should be 24 degrees at the headstock.
A replacement frame would be hard to find and expensive. Fixing your existing frame might be the best solution.
Good Luck.
Steve
Thanks both. I'm sure it's knocked back because the front wheel hits the lower fairing and the nose cone is tilted forward. See pic. Hopefully not as much as 2.5 degrees out though.
Quote from: maccas on June 29, 2023, 10:51:47 AM
Were the forks fully extended?
How much of the fork outer is sticking out the top of the yokes?
Was the rear suspension fully extended?
Where was the rear wheel adjuster in it's travel?
Are the tyres the correct size?
Did the bike have all its fluids on board? Full tank of fuel or empty?
All of the above change the rake angle, so it's not a straight forward measurement. Also, do we know that the yamaha quoted rake angle is for fully extended suspension? Or under the bikes own weight? With fluids or without?
I think your best bet is to compare to another 3XV when the suspension is compressed by the same amount.
What method did you use to generate the angle?
Dan
Excellent info Dan - much appreciated. All I did to "measure" it was put a dial on the lower fork leg with the bike stood up under it's own weight, but there's other indications it really is bent, being the fairings and front wheel position. See vid - https://youtu.be/gZuBpmddOEc (https://youtu.be/gZuBpmddOEc)
If anyone else can drop a dial on a fork leg that'd be helpful and I'll speak to Maidstone Motoliner as to if they have the 3XV8 in their database of dimensions. It's defo bent, and a lot of time before it's going to be fixed.
If only someone was selling a complete bike in boxes with a powder coated frame you could use as a rolling spares stash....
I had a similar issue with a 3XV (R) frame that had a steeper than std steering angle. It was rideable and it steered very quickly, to the point of turning in before you even thought about. It handled really well. The only giveaway was the speed blocks on the fairing didn't line up with those on the seat.
Good luck getting it straight
Quote from: mellorp on June 29, 2023, 04:04:21 PM
If only someone was selling a complete bike in boxes with a powder coated frame you could use as a rolling spares stash....
;D
Quite!
No matter who's got what variant, I know mine will end up being the most expensive 3XV in the world... I shudder to think how much cash has been tipped into this bike. I've already
doubled the purchase price and it keeps on demanding more! I won't give up though.
Collected some stats from the Southern chapter. Front wheel spindle to swing arm pivot is 785mm with the front unloaded, and 780mm on the ground. Thanks Andy & Ron.
With the front on the ground mine's 760mm.
Just for 100% confirmation I checked the wheelbase. Undid the rear spindle and pushed the rear wheel to it shortest distance (as per the pics in the manual) and used a level to mark the floor at the centre of each spindle. 1320mm vs 1340mm spec.
So this all tallys with the front wheel to swingarm pivot measurement being 20mm shorter.
I also found confirmation of the rake at 24 degrees in the manual and noted steering lock is 30 degrees left/right.
I'll update this thread in a little while when I've made progress
Man that's a bummer :( The frame is really delicate, if you look at how thin the main frame spar material is (by big holes on the side that show the thickness) - it's basically ally sheets welded together.. compare it with the NSR which I think uses extruded sections?
Either way I was suprised how light the frame was when held separately which made me wonder how easily it would bend.
Quote from: ybk on July 01, 2023, 11:15:40 PM
Man that's a bummer :( The frame is really delicate, if you look at how thin the main frame spar material is (by big holes on the side that show the thickness) - it's basically ally sheets welded together.. compare it with the NSR which I think uses extruded sections?
Either way I was suprised how light the frame was when held separately which made me wonder how easily it would bend.
The good news is that as the frame is so delicate & light then it'll not be big forces and aluminium ripping stresses to set it straight again. I just telling myself that and I'm sure those that disagree with me will have the sympathy not to point out otherwise :-\
If you think how little impact caused the damage, by doing the same in reverse will fix it. Not that I'm advocating riding it backwards with a rope tied to a car !!! But you get what I mean. Hopefully it will straighten out. If not IT'S HYBRID TIME.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 02, 2023, 12:39:02 AM
Quote from: ybk on July 01, 2023, 11:15:40 PM
Man that's a bummer :( The frame is really delicate, if you look at how thin the main frame spar material is (by big holes on the side that show the thickness) - it's basically ally sheets welded together.. compare it with the NSR which I think uses extruded sections?
Either way I was suprised how light the frame was when held separately which made me wonder how easily it would bend.
The good news is that as the frame is so delicate & light then it'll not be big forces and aluminium ripping stresses to set it straight again. I just telling myself that and I'm sure those that disagree with me will have the sympathy not to point out otherwise :-\
Makes sense to me. Assuming you're still planning to get Moto liner to do it then you really don't need to worry much beyond having the cash to pay the bill. They've been renowned for this work and will have straightened out more bent frames on bikes that will have been crashed harder and then ridden harder than you plan to ride her.
In terms of safety if they don't think it's safe then I don't think they will do it. I've only ever heard great things about them.
I guess at that point it's a ballache of transplanting, moving the plate and re registering but that's only a small chance.
Your focus should be on getting a good stock of biscuits and finding a day that Thump you and I are all free to prep her for her operation. ;D 8) (-P)
By the way it looks like Gecko has a frame for sale that's already in the system it seems. Might be worth it for peace of mind etc?
Thanks all (-P)
I'm going for the Motoliner route. I'll hang off on the frame as I'm getting tight on space.
I've had a long conversation with Motoliner and know what's needed to the nut, so I'm going to sort that and think about transportation and if I can get this done in a day for simplicity in that regard.
Down but not out (again).
I've had the same problem, bought a freshly powder coated frame as a project which turned out badly bent at headstock.
Motoliner wanted £450 plus depending on damage ( not inc vat) and I'm a long way from them.
I had a spare frame in the attic, half day on my own stripping it and a day with two of us it was complete and running again.
My problem was and still is getting the new frame registered! Takes ages.
As stated by others they do not seem very strong at all at the head set.
I'm going to try straighten it myself when I need it. Will post some pics.
Anyways good luck getting it sorted, these bikes ain't cheap.
Hey, Scotty.
I have a 3xv1, modded for track work. If your 3xv headstock seems weak, you're going to attempt an DIY on your current bike and you're not trying to retain a "showroom stock" appearance, have you considered adding aluminum plates to beef things up?
Bending aluminum requires extreme heat and can cause further weakening of the headstock. This is why I recommend reinforcing this critical area of your bike.
Good Luck.
Steve
The shiny frame is bent, the Matt one is fine.
You can see the bulge on side just above the lower weld.
Underneath there are punched holes no longer round and the rad mounts drop down.
Mounts should be in line with each other.
Not sure if Rich's damage is the same.
Motoliner use oxy acetylene in the straightening process hence all wiring etc had to be removed. They want the motor in though to make frame stronger during the process.
Interesting, it the metal behind the frame that's done. Mine looks ok to the eye, and the rad bolts are straight so I guess mines less bent than this and that's a hopeful sign for getting the experts on the case.
I still haven't started stripping the bike down, I will do, but it's lost it's priority
From what I recall USD forks tend to bend the frame first and standard forks bend the forks first.
Quote from: yanw on August 04, 2023, 09:01:09 AM
From what I recall USD forks tend to bend the frame first and standard forks bend the forks first.
Never thought of that. Interesting
I have less urgency and eggs in the single TZR basket.
I feel a bit more detached from the TZR repair now, less invested and all as a consequence - I'll be able to face it a bit better. (-P)
Did someone buy a Brazilian Rd?
Quote from: jamietzr250r on August 04, 2023, 09:33:30 PM
Did someone buy a Brazilian Rd?
Nope, it's not the RD R, it's a Uk '91 F2
After the crash I've not had much enthusiasm for my TZR, but here it goes. I will get this running again for summer (I hope)
See video - https://youtu.be/tgmh-XB0vAc?si=B7Ux7T5xOMfQWobH (https://youtu.be/tgmh-XB0vAc?si=B7Ux7T5xOMfQWobH)
The eagle eyed amongst you will notice the right hand upper engine bolt looks loose. I just went out to the garage and checked; it's not loose, it's snapped!!! Ahem, this bike....
Nice to see work being done.
Question
Have you phoned motor liner at all because I fear you need a completely bear frame...
My Christmas presents were a new Simpson venom helmet and blue RST boots (for the bike..).
think when i used them it was rolling chassis with engine fitted nothing more , been a long time since then tho . rich im hoping you can carry on them vid on the 3xv as itl help soo many people including me . iv watched all your vids now and am very thankful for your input . plus no one has done a step by step 3xv rebuild before on YuTube , theres some on carbs and stuff but it doesnt show routes of cables stripping , re assembling etc so yeah , hope you can carry it on . must admit iv left my 3xv for about 2 years now sure itl be worth it tho when i do eventually get it road worthy :-[ (-P)
Quote from: TZRtim on January 17, 2024, 09:55:42 PM
think when i used them it was rolling chassis with engine fitted nothing more , been a long time since then tho . rich im hoping you can carry on them vid on the 3xv as itl help soo many people including me . iv watched all your vids now and am very thankful for your input . plus no one has done a step by step 3xv rebuild before on YuTube , theres some on carbs and stuff but it doesnt show routes of cables stripping , re assembling etc so yeah , hope you can carry it on . must admit iv left my 3xv for about 2 years now sure itl be worth it tho when i do eventually get it road worthy :-[ (-P)
I left mine longer than that before someone gifted me a new set of brake hoses, I didn't have any excuses after that.
Trust me, it was definitely worth doing. I even managed to kick-start one of the other guys on here too - let him have a quick spin on mine which definitely fired up his enthusiasm to sort his delayed 3XV rebuild, Big Time! (-P)
Quote from: jamietzr250r on January 16, 2024, 11:43:25 PM
Nice to see work being done.
Question
Have you phoned motor liner at all because I fear you need a completely bear frame...
My Christmas presents were a new Simpson venom helmet and blue RST boots (for the bike..).
I think this'll be the case because there is not rear subframe - the want it as a roller with the engine in
Nice haul for Xmas Jamie!
Quote from: thump566 on January 17, 2024, 11:49:52 PM
Quote from: TZRtim on January 17, 2024, 09:55:42 PM
think when i used them it was rolling chassis with engine fitted nothing more , been a long time since then tho . rich im hoping you can carry on them vid on the 3xv as itl help soo many people including me . iv watched all your vids now and am very thankful for your input . plus no one has done a step by step 3xv rebuild before on YuTube , theres some on carbs and stuff but it doesnt show routes of cables stripping , re assembling etc so yeah , hope you can carry it on . must admit iv left my 3xv for about 2 years now sure itl be worth it tho when i do eventually get it road worthy :-[ (-P)
I left mine longer than that before someone gifted me a new set of brake hoses, I didn't have any excuses after that.
Trust me, it was definitely worth doing. I even managed to kick-start one of the other guys on here too - let him have a quick spin on mine which definitely fired up his enthusiasm to sort his delayed 3XV rebuild, Big Time! (-P)
I'll certainly carry on Tim! My advantage here is that it was running mostly and I've got those memories to spur me on, I guess a bit like what Thump did with the test ride, only it was my bike!!! This'll be down to a bare roller and back up to running - I hope!!!
Hope doesn't play a part, determination does, time is the problem here but all these days we meet up are amazing, keep going...
Quote from: jamietzr250r on January 18, 2024, 11:55:41 PM
Hope doesn't play a part, determination does, time is the problem here but all these days we meet up are amazing, keep going...
Quite correct (-P)
Just found time to watch the latest episode. Another great installment!
I'll echo Tim's comments too about how much you're helping others with the videos.
I saw a number of bits in place that I've yet to get to with mine so priceless to see a video of it. Even reference photos can get you confused without the 3D view of something as the camera goes by.
Top notch camera again too, hope your pay your staff well!
Glad you're making progress!
Andy
Quote from: AndyYam on January 19, 2024, 10:16:25 PM
Just found time to watch the latest episode. Another great installment!
I'll echo Tim's comments too about how much you're helping others with the videos.
I saw a number of bits in place that I've yet to get to with mine so priceless to see a video of it. Even reference photos can get you confused without the 3D view of something as the camera goes by.
Top notch camera again too, hope your pay your staff well!
Glad you're making progress!
Andy
Thanks Andy! You're right about the video evidence being useful. When taking stuff off (particularly for the first time) there's the advice "take lots of pictures". I can't remember when but there was an instance where I went back to look at the photos and hadn't got the angle of something but found what I needed in a video. Really simple stuff like does the cable route over or under that cable.
Executive Producer's on a new contract for this series, so made the grade :))
think it should be mandatory to have full rebuild vids available to the forum members at least , say all the other bikes commonly restored or rebuilt regularly . that would be soo cool , but then we would prob see more two strokes on the road >:D
eg . TZR 250R 3xv re-assemble , step by step . episode 1 thru 15 - that would be epic hint hint lol .
id send you biscuits and noticed you kneeling on the cold garage floor rich . makes me want to go to halfords and buy you a proper knee pad and send your way , i bought an orange set of two and there a god send O:-)
Quote from: TZRtim on January 20, 2024, 06:51:07 PM
think it should be mandatory to have full rebuild vids available to the forum members at least , say all the other bikes commonly restored or rebuilt regularly . that would be soo cool , but then we would prob see more two strokes on the road >:D
eg . TZR 250R 3xv re-assemble , step by step . episode 1 thru 15 - that would be epic hint hint lol .
id send you biscuits and noticed you kneeling on the cold garage floor rich . makes me want to go to halfords and buy you a proper knee pad and send your way , i bought an orange set of two and there a god send O:-)
I'd love a full rebuild vid, by someone who knew what they were doing!!! ;D As it is, seems like I'll be fumbling my way through this and hoping other forum members can pick up the mistakes for me!
I left my kneeling pad round my eldest son's house when I was fixing a leak in his dishwasher, he brought it back round a couple of days ago so that's good!
The nearest I get is a bit of a blog. I now tend to write it all up on a daily basis as I simply forget what I did or how I did it. Making a video is probably too time consuming even with a go pro rather then your phone, and if you ever watched a workshop video they are not the most interesting things on youtube
Quote from: mellorp on January 20, 2024, 09:23:13 PM
The nearest I get is a bit of a blog. I now tend to write it all up on a daily basis as I simply forget what I did or how I did it. Making a video is probably too time consuming even with a go pro rather then your phone, and if you ever watched a workshop video they are not the most interesting things on youtube
Agreed. From all the previous work (engine rebuild, fork rebuild etc etc etc) I have a stack of photos and bits of paper with torque settings. None of which I can make sense of!
As a fencer I kneel all the time, I would say that my kneel pads are my greatest tool PERIOD. I use the kids moulded pads that fit together, I have two, one for the floor (so that can get wet and dirty) then another I put on top made of white foam which I actually kneel on.
(Thing is I'm 57 getting to kneel is fine getting up is a whole other story lmfao)
Just realised the alternator needs to come off to liberate the loom. Done that bit before when rebuilding the engine so no big issue.
Running out of parts to remove! Getting closer to the frame being fixed.
Thinking on the rebuild - can anyone recommend a set of rad hoses for a 3XVR? The ones to the cylinder head are practically welded on!!
Wow dude well done, just looking at the bike I can see the headstock looks wrong....
As for hoses dare I say coloured ones from Ali express?? Samco are far too expensive
Had good luck with the gpi one's you see on ebay so far.
I used this pipe, seems to cope with bends ok when fitting 3ma rad to 2ma .
In the UK, make your own custom hoses using various elbows and connectors from this lot https://www.autosiliconehoses.com/silicone.html
No surprises there isn't a full kit out there, thanks for the resources guys. I'll measure up and get on this!
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on January 30, 2024, 10:30:27 AM
No surprises there isn't a full kit out there, thanks for the resources guys. I'll measure up and get on this!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165172579934
Yes there is a kit
they actually look pretty damn good searick , and the colour choice is a bonus too (-P) not sure how long they would take atm , may grab a set . atb
Quote from: TZRtim on January 30, 2024, 08:49:24 PM
they actually look pretty damn good searick , and the colour choice is a bonus too (-P) not sure how long they would take atm , may grab a set . atb
Tbh. Its got a few of us considering a set ::)
Quote from: SeaR1ck on January 30, 2024, 03:50:28 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on January 30, 2024, 10:30:27 AM
No surprises there isn't a full kit out there, thanks for the resources guys. I'll measure up and get on this!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165172579934
Yes there is a kit
Oh a kit! Thanks! It's off eBay.com rather than eBay.co.uk, hence why I couldn't find one when looking. Ordered a red set and it's coming from China free shipping, so will be here in a couple of weeks (-P)
I have had a set on my spr for awhile 1200 ish miles now no issues. Would recommend using silicone hose style hose clamps. The ones with the teeth cut into them.
Teeth = has those hole openings in the band the clamp grips on to.
Silicone hoses usually have a smooth band surface and different clamp. So it won't dig into your hose when tightened.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on January 31, 2024, 01:49:58 AM
I have had a set on my spr for awhile 1200 ish miles now no issues. Would recommend using silicone hose style hose clamps. The ones with the teeth cut into them.
Teeth = has those hole openings in the band the clamp grips on to.
Silicone hoses usually have a smooth band surface and different clamp. So it won't dig into your hose when tightened.
Quote from: mellorp on January 30, 2024, 05:12:24 AM
In the UK, make your own custom hoses using various elbows and connectors from this lot https://www.autosiliconehoses.com/silicone.html
Thanks! I hadn't considered this. The shop Phil sent over has these and they won't split the hoses! https://www.autosiliconehoses.com/hose-clips-t-bolt-hose-clamp-w1-zinc-plated-w4-stainless-steel.html (https://www.autosiliconehoses.com/hose-clips-t-bolt-hose-clamp-w1-zinc-plated-w4-stainless-steel.html)
Here's the video of taking all the junk off the TZR ready for frame straightening. It'll certainly help me more than taking pictures of everything when it comes to reassembly and may (?) be of use to others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MKipAoy0wU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MKipAoy0wU)
I'm sure many of you will be shocked/appalled at how I remove the throttle cable & rear brake... I apologise, but I don't want to pull everything to tiny bits is my defence in advance C:-)
Quote from: SeaR1ck on January 30, 2024, 03:50:28 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on January 30, 2024, 10:30:27 AM
No surprises there isn't a full kit out there, thanks for the resources guys. I'll measure up and get on this!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165172579934
Yes there is a kit
And here it is!! Note to those in the UK, you have to go to eBay.com, not eBay.co.uk and it's still free shipping (all from China anyhow)
Thanks Rick & also Phil for the clips.
The bike is at Mototliner and I called Tommy there to check he was happy ("Yes, that arrived this morning, I can
see it's bent") and he's going to get to it in a few weeks time after the stack of bent WSBK and BSB super bikes have been straightened again after pre season testing!
All straight again.
So far I've spent £700 plus VAT at Motoliner.
Bent and squashed frame, oval headstock, bent forks, yokes, front disc wheel.
18mph crash. These bikes are light with a few drawbacks.
To be fair, unless we've owned a bike from new or are absolutely convinced of its history, few of us are likely 100% sure of its condition.
At least you know yours is straight and true now (albeit a painful path), looking forward to seeing it back on the road at the meets in the summer (-P) 8)
yup as thump says its straight , if the british super bike teams use them it'l ride like new (-P) keep it going rich when do you hope to have it back on the road ? i hpoe to get mine going this sprin/ summer as iv missed 2 summers on the 3xv :o
Quote from: thump566 on March 20, 2024, 08:00:19 AM
To be fair, unless we've owned a bike from new or are absolutely convinced of its history, few of us are likely 100% sure of its condition.
At least you know yours is straight and true now (albeit a painful path), looking forward to seeing it back on the road at the meets in the summer (-P) 8)
It did have a very odd dent in the rad when I got it.... ???
Quote from: TZRtim on March 20, 2024, 11:46:43 PM
yup as thump says its straight , if the british super bike teams use them it'l ride like new (-P) keep it going rich when do you hope to have it back on the road ? i hpoe to get mine going this sprin/ summer as iv missed 2 summers on the 3xv :o
A few short weeks is my estimate. That said I look back at this thread for the start of the derestricting / total rebuild and this was started 2 and a half years ago :o
Quote
A few short weeks is my estimate. That said I look back at this thread for the start of the derestricting / total rebuild and this was started 2 and a half years ago :o
A geologist friend of mine told me that new coal seams have formed since the start of this thread.... ;D :-[
;D
Quote
So far I've spent £700 plus VAT at Motoliner.
I think I've spent that on action man stuff during the "crash' repair time....
Quote from: Warwick on March 21, 2024, 08:20:52 PM
Quote
A few short weeks is my estimate. That said I look back at this thread for the start of the derestricting / total rebuild and this was started 2 and a half years ago :o
A geologist friend of mine told me that new coal seams have formed since the start of this thread.... ;D :-[
Quote from: ybk on March 21, 2024, 09:50:37 PM
;D
I just hope I get it finished before "What was petrol Grandad?"
Quote from: jamietzr250r on March 22, 2024, 01:02:10 AM
Quote
So far I've spent £700 plus VAT at Motoliner.
I think I've spent that on action man stuff during the "crash' repair time....
But no VAT? ;D
I'm having a little trouble with my leak down test. The lower inlet has a small split just behind the clamp. See pic. Any ideas how to seal this or.... is it junk?
I have an intake that's split at the same spot. Was close to just chucking it but I've kept it thinking maybe one day I can maybe repair it. It's the the worst spot for a split since the clamp will put more pressure on any repair. Even when repaired how long would it be trustworthy?
Sorry no birght ideas but also interested in options...
I messaged rich about this. I'm exactly the same. Got two split ones waiting for the miracle cure. I found something last week that I will try as this topic has come up. Black CT1. It's a really really good building adhesive. Probably the best on the market. It's very flexible and looking at its data sheet it withstands petrol and chemicals. Best I've found. Sikoflex was another good option but nothing petrol proof. I've got two busted manifolds so I'll try it on the worst one and give it some abuse.
Quote from: ybk on March 27, 2024, 03:17:52 AM
I have an intake that's split at the same spot. Was close to just chucking it but I've kept it thinking maybe one day I can maybe repair it. It's the the worst spot for a split since the clamp will put more pressure on any repair. Even when repaired how long would it be trustworthy?
Sorry no birght ideas but also interested in options...
Quote from: chippy on March 27, 2024, 10:12:50 AM
I messaged rich about this. I'm exactly the same. Got two split ones waiting for the miracle cure. I found something last week that I will try as this topic has come up. Black CT1. It's a really really good building adhesive. Probably the best on the market. It's very flexible and looking at its data sheet it withstands petrol and chemicals. Best I've found. Sikoflex was another good option but nothing petrol proof. I've got two busted manifolds so I'll try it on the worst one and give it some abuse.
I got three options now! My first gambit is with Yamabond 1215, then Bulldogboys suggestion of Gold Label Pond Sealer will arrive today, now CT1!!
After a couple of failed attempts I think one key consideration is how to apply the sealer. I initially did this with the inlet as pictured, which has failed (twice) now. My last shot has been to apply when stretched (i.e. carb / bung inserted). I think that's got to be a better mode as the split only opens up when the thing is stuffed.
I can't really make out from the pic. Does the split actually go right through the rubber? And is it only in the outer edge of the clamping band area? If no to the first question, and yes to the second, it'd probably be fine in use.
Why the leakdown test in any case, have you had the motor apart again, or was it running badly or something?
Quote from: Warwick on March 27, 2024, 11:49:26 AM
I can't really make out from the pic. Does the split actually go right through the rubber? And is it only in the outer edge of the clamping band area? If no to the first question, and yes to the second, it'd probably be fine in use.
Why the leakdown test in any case, have you had the motor apart again, or was it running badly or something?
It goes right through at the rear of the clamp. So basically closer towards the reed block.
I did the leak down test because when I was stripping the bike I found coolant leaked into puddles between the to cylinders so wanted to check that nothing was battered from the accident.
Like this ?
That is not good I'd try n find a replacement one in better condition.
Cause an air leak.
Someone suggested a type of rubberized bonding agent. That worked pretty good on fixing the manifolds with. No help because I don't remember what it was called now.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on March 27, 2024, 04:13:44 PM
That is not good I'd try n find a replacement one in better condition.
Cause an air leak.
Yes it bleeds on the lower cylinder. The top cylinder is perfect. I'll keep an eye out but this itself was a better condition than the one I originally had that basically was split at the base of the inlet manifold, which is much more flexed with a heavy carb on it.
Of course when you find the biggest leak and plug that then you'll get to the next smallest leak.. that's always the fun with whack-a-mole leak testing!!!
Quote from: SeaR1ck on March 27, 2024, 04:13:44 PM
No help because I don't remember what it was called now.
;D I hear you! Had to look back in my project thread to find out of 1138 or 1215 was the best for this!
Fixed.
It's not pretty but... Threebond 1215 works. From the product sheet it's pressure resistant. https://threebond.com/wp-content/uploads/Products-Guide_ver6-LOCAL.pdf (https://threebond.com/wp-content/uploads/Products-Guide_ver6-LOCAL.pdf)
I think the key technique is to apply the 1215 while the inlet is stretched (opening the split) and allow it 30+ hours to cure.
I do have a small leak from the lower cylinder nut, but Dan's gaskets are no longer a thing. I need 0.75mm or 0.8mm base gaskets, where's the go to source these days?
.8 is the stock 4DP base gasket. These will probably do the job, or if you'd rather use genuine, the Yam part No is in the listing. Dennis Trollope will have them on the shelf I expect. 👍
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134773400127?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=pjRrERSaTKq&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=A9UvKJ3lTrK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Quote from: Warwick on March 28, 2024, 02:06:47 PM
.8 is the stock 4DP base gasket. These will probably do the job, or if you'd rather use genuine, the Yam part No is in the listing. Dennis Trollope will have them on the shelf I expect. 👍
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134773400127?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=pjRrERSaTKq&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=A9UvKJ3lTrK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Lifesaver - many thanks Warwick :)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:41:31 PM
I'm keeping an eagle eye on your thread for the rolling chassis side, and there's others in projects and resources for bits you may not be doing, like the front fork rebuilds! Hopefully when you get to the engine this catalogue of errors will serve (-P)
I think we'll both be ready for Spring @ Loomies Andy...
This aged well Rich. Nearly 2 and half years :)) :'(
Quote from: AndyYam on March 28, 2024, 08:03:37 PM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on November 04, 2021, 11:41:31 PM
I'm keeping an eagle eye on your thread for the rolling chassis side, and there's others in projects and resources for bits you may not be doing, like the front fork rebuilds! Hopefully when you get to the engine this catalogue of errors will serve (-P)
I think we'll both be ready for Spring @ Loomies Andy...
This aged well Rich. Nearly 2 and half years :)) :'(
Spring 2024/5 I meant :o
The gpi rad hose kit on ebay can get black blue or red. Cheap
Update time. Well most of the updates are on YouTube but the raw facts are ...
0.5mm gaskets worked and I have good squish & no leaks
ThreeBond 1215 on the front carb rubber seems to be holding & no leaks
Doing the laborious job of reversing all that I've done so far, it's getting there. I ordered the wrong silicone hose clips, so those will be coming in the week.
Left to do it...
Rad & Hoses
Test/adjust/set all the PVs, oil pump and throttles.
Airboxes/tank on, make some smoke
Test fit the fairings and see what can be done with these
I have it running again now! Fairings go on tomorrow!
https://youtu.be/SBVCNMMHPxI (https://youtu.be/SBVCNMMHPxI)
well done buddy , ima go watch the vids now ;) (-P)
Quote from: TZRtim on June 14, 2024, 07:40:03 PM
well done buddy , ima go watch the vids now ;) (-P)
Thanks mate!
My question is why are the indicators firing at different rates. It's always done this but as I have it apart it'd be great to "fix" this. It's about 7min into the video but basically the speed of hazards, lefts and rights is very different ?:-|
Well Done Rich, imagine you may have thought this point would never come. Excellent vids too, very useful.
Indicators... Check for a bad earth, that is often the cause of dodgy indicators (-P)
Excellent must feel good noticed the clutch lever end was bent. I recommend not replacing it with the stock tzr oem one it specs.
I got this one off webike it was listed for tzr50 couple other Yamaha's. The bend is much better makes for a better lever feel.
Good news on the bike. For the indicators check the wattage of the bulbs as the flasher speed works on resistance. Might not be but it's an easy one (also swapping bulbs between sides).
Quote from: thump566 on June 14, 2024, 08:38:20 PM
Well Done Rich, imagine you may have thought this point would never come. Excellent vids too, very useful.
Indicators... Check for a bad earth, that is often the cause of dodgy indicators (-P)
Quote from: yanw on June 14, 2024, 10:37:13 PM
Good news on the bike. For the indicators check the wattage of the bulbs as the flasher speed works on resistance. Might not be but it's an easy one (also swapping bulbs between sides).
Thanks guys. I've cleaned all the contacts for the indicators and swapped them around. It appears the flasher unit becomes partially energised. I'll check each indicator with a multimeter to see what the resistances are. I think it needs a new flasher unit, so I'll have a look into that. Right now with no plastics on and all the connectors hanging out in the breeze it's the right time to tackle this.
Quote from: SeaR1ck on June 14, 2024, 08:52:04 PM
Excellent must feel good noticed the clutch lever end was bent. I recommend not replacing it with the stock tzr oem one it specs.
I got this one off webike it was listed for tzr50 couple other Yamaha's. The bend is much better makes for a better lever feel.
I hadn't spotted that! I'll take a look at the TZR50 one. Good spot, thanks!
Finally you can genuinely see happiness in your eyes, it's been a long journey not to far to the finish. Well done.
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on June 15, 2024, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: SeaR1ck on June 14, 2024, 08:52:04 PM
Excellent must feel good noticed the clutch lever end was bent. I recommend not replacing it with the stock tzr oem one it specs.
I got this one off webike it was listed for tzr50 couple other Yamaha's. The bend is much better makes for a better lever feel.
I hadn't spotted that! I'll take a look at the TZR50 one. Good spot, thanks!
I found it has a list of bikes it fits.
https://japan.webike.net/products/fit-model/1035013.html#YAMAHA
fair play rich these vids of yours are really going to help alot of people including me , even the torque settings you have put in as you go . well bloody done pal . 8) (-P)
Quote from: jamietzr250r on June 16, 2024, 09:28:06 PM
Finally you can genuinely see happiness in your eyes, it's been a long journey not to far to the finish. Well done.
Thanks Jamie! Next weekend it's MoT's!!
Quote from: SeaR1ck on June 17, 2024, 12:26:43 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on June 15, 2024, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: SeaR1ck on June 14, 2024, 08:52:04 PM
Excellent must feel good noticed the clutch lever end was bent. I recommend not replacing it with the stock tzr oem one it specs.
I got this one off webike it was listed for tzr50 couple other Yamaha's. The bend is much better makes for a better lever feel.
I hadn't spotted that! I'll take a look at the TZR50 one. Good spot, thanks!
I found it has a list of bikes it fits.
https://japan.webike.net/products/fit-model/1035013.html#YAMAHA
That's a fair list! Good old DT125 there on that list too!
Quote from: TZRtim on June 18, 2024, 04:11:31 PM
fair play rich these vids of yours are really going to help alot of people including me , even the torque settings you have put in as you go . well bloody done pal . 8) (-P)
Thanks Tim. These videos will also help me, as I'll forget pretty much all of this!!! ;)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on June 15, 2024, 11:32:16 AM
Quote from: thump566 on June 14, 2024, 08:38:20 PM
Well Done Rich, imagine you may have thought this point would never come. Excellent vids too, very useful.
Indicators... Check for a bad earth, that is often the cause of dodgy indicators (-P)
Quote from: yanw on June 14, 2024, 10:37:13 PM
Good news on the bike. For the indicators check the wattage of the bulbs as the flasher speed works on resistance. Might not be but it's an easy one (also swapping bulbs between sides).
Thanks guys. I've cleaned all the contacts for the indicators and swapped them around. It appears the flasher unit becomes partially energised. I'll check each indicator with a multimeter to see what the resistances are. I think it needs a new flasher unit, so I'll have a look into that. Right now with no plastics on and all the connectors hanging out in the breeze it's the right time to tackle this.
New flasher unit is the fix! I'm not paying £85 for an OEM one - £11 on eBay for a solid state version - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116085205629 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116085205629)
Perfect!
Next step. MOT (Next Saturday)
The bike has an MOT again! The year long interruption in this derestriction thread is done.
I want to do a bit of riding the thing for a change, and I'll get to the last step & close this thread when I get it on the dyno and tuned to its modifications. For now I want to enjoy the bike again!
https://youtu.be/ck0CvLRFgiE (https://youtu.be/ck0CvLRFgiE)
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 03, 2024, 12:21:58 AM
The bike has an MOT again! The year long interruption in this derestriction thread is done.
I want to do a bit of riding the thing for a change, and I'll get to the last step & close this thread when I get it on the dyno and tuned to its modifications. For now I want to enjoy the bike again!
https://youtu.be/ck0CvLRFgiE (https://youtu.be/ck0CvLRFgiE)
Good stuff! Well done for sticking at it, Rich 8). If you look back at some of your earlier posts, you can really appreciate how much you have learned from this project/experince/mild trauma.... 😄
Remember though: it's never over til the dyno lady sings! And even then, that normally sets in motion a whole new chapter in the project.... 😂
Good stuff! Well done for sticking at it, Rich 8). If you look back at some of your earlier posts, you can really appreciate how much you have learned from this project/experience/mild trauma.... 😄
[/quote]
Very true, plus a great many of us who have likely benefited from Rich's tips/traps/video's throughout his journey :) (-P)
It's been an all round effort not only by him but by all of us/you to keep him motivated. Those who visited personally at his home, those who came to meets and offered encouragement and finally Rich for listening, learning and perseverance.
Quote from: Warwick on July 03, 2024, 10:10:20 AM
Quote from: SouthCoastRich on July 03, 2024, 12:21:58 AM
The bike has an MOT again! The year long interruption in this derestriction thread is done.
I want to do a bit of riding the thing for a change, and I'll get to the last step & close this thread when I get it on the dyno and tuned to its modifications. For now I want to enjoy the bike again!
https://youtu.be/ck0CvLRFgiE (https://youtu.be/ck0CvLRFgiE)
Good stuff! Well done for sticking at it, Rich 8). If you look back at some of your earlier posts, you can really appreciate how much you have learned from this project/experince/mild trauma.... 😄
Remember though: it's never over til the dyno lady sings! And even then, that normally sets in motion a whole new chapter in the project.... 😂
Quite right - the fat lady has yet to sing! Can I be hopeful around the dyno for now? One visit and tune it up to 55bhp and close this thread before Karel stars charging me hosting fees for this one topic!!!!
Quote from: thump566 on July 03, 2024, 02:14:46 PM
Good stuff! Well done for sticking at it, Rich 8). If you look back at some of your earlier posts, you can really appreciate how much you have learned from this project/experience/mild trauma.... 😄
Very true, plus a great many of us who have likely benefited from Rich's tips/traps/video's throughout his journey :) (-P)
[/quote]
I think I fell into every TZR trap and looking back on it, I don't think there's a single bolt / component I haven't undone / repaired / replaced!! Glad it's been helpful!
Quote from: jamietzr250r on July 03, 2024, 10:59:30 PM
It's been an all round effort not only by him but by all of us/you to keep him motivated. Those who visited personally at his home, those who came to meets and offered encouragement and finally Rich for listening, learning and perseverance.
I'm putting together a supercut/movie of the whole rebuild thread and at the end are the credits - so many of you (your TZR handles, not names) are included in this. It's not a matter of I couldn't have done this without you all, I simply couldn't, but it's more of a fact that I
wouldn't have done this with out all the advice, help, encouragement and support. Especially those locally that picked me up after I'd crashed it. This bike is a testament to this forum and the people of it.
You need to change your tag from broken to restored/running...
Quote from: jamietzr250r on July 04, 2024, 12:08:39 AM
You need to change your tag from broken to restored/running...
Done! Bit short notice for Loomies today but I got a full road test today and everything's perfect!
https://youtube.com/shorts/GyrVeO_axe0?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/GyrVeO_axe0?feature=share)